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Post by slowtosee on Aug 16, 2014 20:35:15 GMT -5
y Flew always came across to me as a really open-minded man, although he was a professed atheist. I enjoyed this review about his last book, which I found quite interesting. In fact, I went ahead and ordered his book on Amazon out of my own curiosity. [/p]
I appreciate such honesty being shown by somebody who had gained such fame for his atheistic point of view. It takes a big man to admit reasonable doubt as he did here. Sometimes I think we can erect some very high walls when it comes to our personal beliefs on either side of the fence, and by doing so, miss out on what's obvious before our very eyes. However, I couldn't help but think of what Paul said in Romans 1:20 about creation itself giving evidence to God's existence
Agree, faune. I remember reading about an interview with Templeton a christian evangelist with b illy graham at one time, who became atheist, was asked "what about Jesus christ?". And Templeton replied, "I miss him". I gained a lot of respect for him in his honesty and integrity for a reply that didn't necessarily promote his own view. I think he is the same Templeton behind very successful "Templeton funds. As believers, we are often tempted to beless than honest sometimes in our own struggles of belief and doubts, and yet want to encourage one another to "keep the faith" and relationship with christ. Help thou mine unbelief .. ........Alvin
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 16, 2014 22:22:25 GMT -5
Oh, my goodness, faune! I never thought about that!
God forbid!
Maybe Nathan won't see it!
Dmmichgood ~ I hope for your part Nathan misses it entirely. If he notices it, you are truly doomed! You better be thinking up an explanation, just in case. Too late!
However, when it's science fiction vs neuroscience there is no comparison.
Science fiction may be fun to read but if there is something going on in my brain I depend on neuroscience to explain it!
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Post by faune on Aug 16, 2014 23:02:31 GMT -5
Dmmichgood ~ I hope for your part Nathan misses it entirely. If he notices it, you are truly doomed! You better be thinking up an explanation, just in case. Too late!
However, when it's science fiction vs neuroscience there is no comparison.
Science fiction may be fun to read but if there is something going on in my brain I depend on neuroscience to explain it!
Dmmichgood ~ I did warn you, didn't I? You just opened Pandora's Box with your shared knowledge on the brain. Now you get to deal with it. Have fun!
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 0:46:20 GMT -5
In The Case for Christianity, C S Lewis writes: ‘Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true?
It’s like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can’t trust my own thinking, I can’t trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought so I cannot use thought to disbelieve in God.’ If you can't trust in your own thinking, how can you trust in your complicated idea of a god which your thinking has constructed?
Actually the need to trust your own thinking isn't even applicable to the belief of Atheism. You weren't born with the idea of a God, -any of the multitude pf gods past or present. It was your brain responding to your environment of others beliefs that caused your thoughts to construct an idea of there being a god.
If it weren't an construction of an idea of there being a god, you wouldn't have had a thoughts of god & therefore no need to "trust the arguments leading to Atheism."
Since atheism is not a constructed idea of your thinking but rather just the lack of any evidence of there being any gods, you wouldn't even have thought about it to start with!
Dmg said, you weren't born with the idea of God. The majority of primitive races believe in the supernatural. Seems as if religion has been a part of the western mind. Who said that Christians do not believe in the evolutionary process? I would think most people believe that we change, evolve and adapt to our surroundings, changes in food resulting in changes in height, size etc. This includes the human mind. I believe atheism has been constructed - as part of the evolutionary process.
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Post by fixit on Aug 17, 2014 3:40:53 GMT -5
The question is: was there a higher power and intelligent design behind evolution?
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Post by matisse on Aug 17, 2014 5:13:16 GMT -5
The question is: was there a higher power and intelligent design behind evolution? why not the question: "Is there a Heavenly Father who knows our every move, who wants us to seek his face on bended knee, and who will someday judge us and find us wanting if we have not accepted His son as our personal savior?"
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Post by Rob Sargison on Aug 17, 2014 5:23:57 GMT -5
The question is: was there a higher power and intelligent design behind evolution? Do you mean was or is fixit? Has evolution stopped.....Do we need to evolve any more... Have we reached the ultimate in natural development now that we know we were not created by a higher power
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Post by matisse on Aug 17, 2014 8:13:14 GMT -5
Has evolution stopped.....Do we need to evolve any more... Evolution isn't driven by a need to evolve, it is driven by a change in circumstances that kills off organisms that are unprepared to survive the change, leaving the remaining organisms (if there are any) to propagate their genetic details into the next generation. The process of evolution has not stopped. Consider the antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria that have emerged in recent years. These represent the part of the bacterial population that were able to survive antibiotics and pass their special version of genes onto the next generation of bacteria. We can observe this phenomenon within a human lifetime because bacteria cycle through many many generations in a short period of time. Who knows what limited edition human genetic trait might make the difference between survival and death in some future crisis? Or what random human traits might be concentrated in future generations because of dumb luck of the survivors of a crisis surviving because they happened to be in the right place at the right time? It is possible that there will be a global-scale crisis that no human will survive. That is when one could declare (if only one were around to declare it) that the process of human evolution has stopped. I think some folks with chronic back pain and knee joint issues (for example) might argue that a few less than ideal design elements persist in the human body. Human survival in this age of nuclear technology might hinge on some populations letting go of what they believe their respective "higher powers" are "commanding" them to do.
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Post by rational on Aug 17, 2014 9:20:51 GMT -5
Dmg said, you weren't born with the idea of God. The majority of primitive races believe in the supernatural. Seems as if religion has been a part of the western mind. Facts are not subject to vote. The majority of people at one time believed that supernatural powers caused thunder and lightening. A majority belief in something does not make it a fact. I do not think what you have described would actually fit the definition of evolution.It would be difficult to construct a non-belief. There is no need to construct, for example, the non-belief in fire-breathing dragons. I think the belief in the paranormal is the later development of the brain. Remember, man is the result of evolutionary change and looking back at the family tree, it would be difficult to believe that the Euarchonta were concerned with a paranormal being. You did say you believed in evolution, didn't you?
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Post by rational on Aug 17, 2014 9:38:16 GMT -5
The question is: was there a higher power and intelligent design behind evolution? Kind of a master designer who directed the development of cnidarians with nerves and muscles and then sat back and watched what happened after that? Of a paranormal being who micromanaged the entire evolutionary process from first cell to now? Looking at the record, there are a lot of mistakes (most species that evolved did not survive) that would not speak highly of the intelligence of the designer.
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Post by findingtruth on Aug 17, 2014 10:30:38 GMT -5
The question is: was there a higher power and intelligent design behind evolution? why not the question: "Is there a Heavenly Father who knows our every move, who wants us to seek his face on bended knee, and who will someday judge us and find us wanting if we have not accepted His son as our personal savior?" Matisse, there are many of us who do not believe in this "Heavenly Father" you describe but do believe in a higher power. We form our conclusions based solely on what we observe . The problem I have with the overall view of most atheists is that they lump all who believe (and that includes notable scientists) in a higher power into a "religious" class of people. I appreciate all points of view, including those of atheists. I likely share similar thoughts but I personally cannot conclude that there is NO higher intelligence responsible for all that I observe. I believe religion is nothing more than a desperate attempt to define "truths" that cannot possibly be defined.
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Post by faune on Aug 17, 2014 10:34:35 GMT -5
Has evolution stopped.....Do we need to evolve any more... Evolution isn't driven by a need to evolve, it is driven by a change in circumstances that kills off organisms that are unprepared to survive the change, leaving the remaining organisms (if there are any) to propagate their genetic details into the next generation. The process of evolution has not stopped. Consider the antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria that have emerged in recent years. These represent the part of the bacterial population that were able to survive antibiotics and pass their special version of genes onto the next generation of bacteria. We can observe this phenomenon within a human lifetime because bacteria cycle through many many generations in a short period of time. Who knows what limited edition human genetic trait might make the difference between survival and death in some future crisis? Or what random human traits might be concentrated in future generations because of dumb luck of the survivors of a crisis surviving because they happened to be in the right place at the right time? It is possible that there will be a global-scale crisis that no human will survive. That is when one could declare (if only one were around to declare it) that the process of human evolution has stopped. I think some folks with chronic back pain and knee joint issues (for example) might argue that a few less than ideal design elements persist in the human body. Human survival in this age of nuclear technology might hinge on some populations letting go of what they believe their respective "higher powers" are "commanding" them to do. Matisse ~ You shared some valid points here about evolution and man's ability to annihilate one another. Unfortunately, fanaticism, due to religion, has fueled a number of atrocities down through the centuries and the loss of many lives. Recounting the Crusades, Inquisitions, Witch Hunts, Jewish Holocaust, and suicide bombers of 9/11, surely makes one aware of this fact!
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Post by faune on Aug 17, 2014 10:50:43 GMT -5
why not the question: "Is there a Heavenly Father who knows our every move, who wants us to seek his face on bended knee, and who will someday judge us and find us wanting if we have not accepted His son as our personal savior?" Matisse, there are many of us who do not believe in this "Heavenly Father" you describe but do believe in a higher power. We form our conclusions based solely on what we observe . The problem I have with the overall view of most atheists is that they lump all who believe (and that includes notable scientists) in a higher power into a "religious" class of people. I appreciate all points of view, including those of atheists. I likely share similar thoughts but I personally cannot conclude that there is NO higher intelligence responsible for all that I observe. I believe religion is nothing more than a desperate attempt to define "truths" that cannot possibly be defined.
Findingtruth ~ I share in your sentiment here, including the purpose behind religions. Belief in a Higher Power behind the creation of this universe and life itself doesn't automatically lump a person with all believers in the world today who endorse the tenets of Christianity. You need only to think of Anthony Flew, a well known atheist from the past, who eventually came to endorse theism before he died and might be considered a deist along with many of our own country's founding fathers. They did not align themselves with Christianity or any other religion, but they did believe in a creative designer behind the universe who set things in motion at some point in time.
creation.com/review-there-is-a-god-by-antony-flew
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Post by matisse on Aug 17, 2014 10:54:23 GMT -5
why not the question: "Is there a Heavenly Father who knows our every move, who wants us to seek his face on bended knee, and who will someday judge us and find us wanting if we have not accepted His son as our personal savior?" Matisse, there are many of us who do not believe in this "Heavenly Father" you describe but do believe in a higher power. We form our conclusions based solely on what we observe . The problem I have with the overall view of most atheists is that they lump all who believe (and that includes notable scientists) in a higher power into a "religious" class of people. I appreciate all points of view, including those of atheists. I likely share similar thoughts but I personally cannot conclude that there is NO higher intelligence responsible for all that I observe. I believe religion is nothing more than a desperate attempt to define "truths" that cannot possibly be defined. I appreciate the distinction that you make. To me the question I pose is more relevant to the topic of the thread, "Atheists beware!" I think the widely held negative stereotypes about atheists and the social isolation some atheists face (check the opinion polls) are relevant to the topic and are not disconnected from the widespread belief in a "Heavenly Father." I identify as an atheist, not because I can conclude without a doubt, but because it is what makes the most sense to me. The differences between your point of view and mine may be largely semantic.
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Post by faune on Aug 17, 2014 11:08:08 GMT -5
Matisse, there are many of us who do not believe in this "Heavenly Father" you describe but do believe in a higher power. We form our conclusions based solely on what we observe . The problem I have with the overall view of most atheists is that they lump all who believe (and that includes notable scientists) in a higher power into a "religious" class of people. I appreciate all points of view, including those of atheists. I likely share similar thoughts but I personally cannot conclude that there is NO higher intelligence responsible for all that I observe. I believe religion is nothing more than a desperate attempt to define "truths" that cannot possibly be defined. I appreciate the distinction that you describe. To me the question I pose is more relevant to the topic of the thread, "Atheists beware!" I think the widely believed negative stereotypes about atheists and the social isolation some atheists face (check the opinion polls) are relevant to the topic and not disconnected from the widespread belief in a "Heavenly Father." Matisse ~ Thanks for clarifying yourself here. I also wondered about your statement earlier and do agree that certain stereotypes about atheists have been around for some time and most of this type-casting goes back to what the Bible teaches along these lines about unbelievers. Below is a poll that supports your statement. Unfortunately, prejudice does abound towards those classified as atheists or among the irreligious in today's world, no doubt about it.
www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/Zuckerman_on_Atheism.pdf
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Post by snow on Aug 17, 2014 12:11:31 GMT -5
The length that an Christian apologist will go in twisting ideas into what they want to believe seems to know no end!
Upsetting a milk jug is just another version of the argument that evolution couldn't have happened because you can't throw a bunch of letters up into the air & when they come down you have a dictionary! Or you can't throw up a bunch of scrap metal into the air & when it comes down it is a car engine!
All one has to do is to look at the anatomy of how the human brain is layered & realize that each section has evolved from a lower brain starting with the reptilian brain! THE EVOLUTIONARY LAYERS OF THE HUMAN BRAIN
"The first time you observe the anatomy of the human brain, its many folds and overlapping structures can seem very confusing, and you may wonder what they all mean. But just like the anatomy of any other organ or organism, the anatomy of the brain becomes much clearer and more meaningful when you examine it in light of the evolutionary processes that created it.
The most efficient model for understanding the brain in terms of its evolutionary history is the famous triune brain theory developed by Paul MacLean. According to this theory, the following three distinct brains emerged successively in the course of evolution and now co-inhabit the human skull:
The reptilian brain, the oldest of the three, controls the body's vital functions such as heart rate, breathing, body temperature and balance. Our reptilian brain includes the main structures found in a reptile's brain: the brainstem and the cerebellum. The reptilian brain is reliable but tends to be somewhat rigid and compulsive.
The limbic brain emerged in the first mammals. It can record memories of behaviours that produced agreeable and disagreeable experiences, so it is responsible for what are called emotions in human beings. The main structures of the limbic brain are the hippocampus, the amygdala, and the hypothalamus. The limbic brain is the seat of the value judgments that we make, often unconsciously, that exert such a strong influence on our behaviour.
The neocortex first assumed importance in primates and culminated in the human brain with its two large cerebral hemispheres that play such a dominant role. These hemispheres have been responsible for the development of human language, abstract thought, imagination, and consciousness. The neocortex is flexible and has almost infinite learning abilities. The neocortex is also what has enabled human cultures to develop.
These three parts of the brain do not operate independently of one another. They have established numerous interconnections through which they influence one another. The neural pathways from the limbic system to the cortex, for example, are especially well developed."
Dmmichgood ~ I was not aware until today that the "reptilian brain" was part of our evolutionary process. Aren't you a little afraid of setting off Nathan's alien reptile theory by your mention of this fact? No because the evolutionary reptilian brain did things by instinct and Nathan's reptilians definitely seem to be driven by abstract thought. Something no reptile has accomplished to my knowledge.
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Post by matisse on Aug 17, 2014 12:14:30 GMT -5
Do you have a tidy way to rationalize these away so only the atheists coming to faith in god truly count? . No, do you? Alvin [/quote] I grew up hearing the argument that believers who lose their faith have lost their "vision" or hardened their heart, or similar...at this point I consider these examples of "tidy rationalizations" to blame and dismiss the person who has lost their faith as having failed in some way, and if they hadn't failed, they would still believe. That is the kind of thing I was thinking of when I asked the question.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 17, 2014 12:24:11 GMT -5
It would be difficult to construct a non-belief. There is no need to construct, for example, the non-belief in fire-breathing dragons. I think the belief in the paranormal is the later development of the brain. Remember, man is the result of evolutionary change and looking back at the family tree, it would be difficult to believe that the Euarchonta were concerned with a paranormal being. I understand about how difficult it is to construct a non-belief. I'm still trying to convince my grandson that there is no proof that "Barney" isn't real. Do you suppose a new religion might be a suitable distraction for him?
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 17, 2014 13:13:53 GMT -5
Do you have a tidy way to rationalize these away so only the atheists coming to faith in god truly count? . No, do you? Alvin I grew up hearing the argument that believers who lose their faith have lost their "vision" or hardened their heart, or similar...at this point I consider these examples of "tidy rationalizations" to blame and dismiss the person who has lost their faith as having failed in some way, and if they hadn't failed, they would still believe. That is the kind of thing I was thinking of when I asked the question.[/ Thank you matisee. Appreciate your response and helps me understand where you coming from. I often find myself defending atheists amongst "religous" people, and sometimes fear I will become or am just a " religous" person myself. I am not atheist, but certainly can appreciate their pov, and especially so when religion has so terribly disappointed. Alvin
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Post by Annan on Aug 17, 2014 13:24:55 GMT -5
The process of evolution has not stopped. Consider the antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria that have emerged in recent years. These represent the part of the bacterial population that were able to survive antibiotics and pass their special version of genes onto the next generation of bacteria. We can observe this phenomenon within a human lifetime because bacteria cycle through many many generations in a short period of time. Who knows what limited edition human genetic trait might make the difference between survival and death in some future crisis? Or what random human traits might be concentrated in future generations because of dumb luck of the survivors of a crisis surviving because they happened to be in the right place at the right time? It is possible that there will be a global-scale crisis that no human will survive. That is when one could declare (if only one were around to declare it) that the process of human evolution has stopped. I find it interesting that there are those that feel man is the pinnacle of evolution. According to my father, there is nothing else to come. He awaits the end of times. I find that to be a very sad outlook on life. What I also find sad is that there are those that say Atheists have no hope. Of course they mean Atheists have no hope in an afterlife. For me to believe in anything, I need assurance. Hope is not assurance, it's a just-in-case. Even my father admits to a just-in-case belief, which in my opinion, amounts to nothing more than going through the motions. As an Atheist, I embrace each day with open arms. Living for what I hope is to come after I die, makes no sense to me. I once commented on what a beautiful day is was only to have someone say, "If you think this is a beautiful day, think of what is to come!" In my opinion, religion is for those who cannot find joy or satisfaction in this life.
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Post by Annan on Aug 17, 2014 13:26:42 GMT -5
Because someone mentioned it.
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Post by fixit on Aug 17, 2014 14:14:52 GMT -5
The question is: was there a higher power and intelligent design behind evolution? Kind of a master designer who directed the development of cnidarians with nerves and muscles and then sat back and watched what happened after that? Of a paranormal being who micromanaged the entire evolutionary process from first cell to now? Looking at the record, there are a lot of mistakes (most species that evolved did not survive) that would not speak highly of the intelligence of the designer. Do you think you have enough intelligence to judge the intelligence of so great a designer? I expect the designer knows a lot more than you do.
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Post by faune on Aug 17, 2014 14:21:07 GMT -5
I grew up hearing the argument that believers who lose their faith have lost their "vision" or hardened their heart, or similar...at this point I consider these examples of "tidy rationalizations" to blame and dismiss the person who has lost their faith as having failed in some way, and if they hadn't failed, they would still believe. That is the kind of thing I was thinking of when I asked the question. Thank you matisee. Appreciate your response and helps me understand where you coming from. I often find myself defending atheists amongst "religous" people, and sometimes fear I will become or am just a " religous" person myself. I am not atheist, but certainly can appreciate their pov, and especially so when religion has so terribly disappointed. Alvin Alvin ~ You do not stand along here. I also share your sentiment, especially for those who left the 2x2's and lost all faith in God afterward. I can see how easily that can happen, because it almost happened with me, too, over the feeling of betrayal I felt towards the leadership within the 2x2's. I wonder how many actually would fall in this category after leaving the 2x2's ~ probably a fair share, IMHO?
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Post by fixit on Aug 17, 2014 14:28:27 GMT -5
O Lord my God! When I in awesome wonder Consider all the works Thy hand hath made. I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder, Thy power throughout the universe displayed.
O mighty God, when I survey in wonder The world that formed when once the word you said, The strands of life all woven close together, The whole creation at your table fed,
When through the woods and forest glades I wander And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees; When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur And hear the brook and feel the gentle breeze:
When your voice speaks in rolls of thunder pealing, Your lightning power bursts in bright surprise; When cooling rain, your gentle love revealing, Reflects your promise, arcing through the skies.
My soul cries out in songs of praise to you, O mighty God! O mighty God! My soul cries out in songs of praise to you, O mighty God! O mighty God!
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 17, 2014 14:29:58 GMT -5
We have an ex worker professing friend who says if it becomes reality to him that the two by two fellowship is not from the begonni.g and way of god, he will become an atheist. It is a tendency for us to equate religion with God, and when religion disappoints...... alvin
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Post by matisse on Aug 17, 2014 14:41:09 GMT -5
We have an ex worker professing friend who says if it becomes reality to him that the two by two fellowship is not from the begonni.g and way of god, he will become an atheist. It is a tendency for us to equate religion with God, and when religion disappoints...... alvin I cannot imagine believing any more fervently than I once did. My faith in God survived my leaving meetings. My faith crumbled long before I learned of the origins of the 2x2's. I gained an appreciation of the human capacity to be convinced by imagination.
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Post by snow on Aug 17, 2014 15:06:00 GMT -5
I think for me it was all the imperfection I saw in the world. Not just in people but the universe in general. While things do seem to work together and support one another, there are so many things that do not. If God guides everyday happenings or evolution then you would think it would be perfect. But, it's not. I think religion is based on the need for someone to take care of us. When we leave home we no longer have parents to take care of everything. When they die we are truly on our own. This can be scary of course, but the best feeling in the world is when you find out you can do things on your own. I have now become the old generation. My cousins and I are the 'next generation'. We are the grandparents and we are the ones the younger generations look to. We have no one older like parents and grandparents anymore, we are them. It is a great feeling to know that 'we can do it'. I felt the same kind of sense of achievement and confidence when I let go of the need for a parental God to take care of me. I don't think many people like feeling 'alone' in the universe. But I was left with no other conclusion available. I can't pretend to believe there is a God that will keep me safe or help me in times of need. There is just to much evidence to the contrary. Any belief I would have now would be false for me and not be very comforting because of that.
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Post by faune on Aug 17, 2014 15:46:01 GMT -5
O Lord my God! When I in awesome wonder Consider all the works Thy hand hath made. I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder, Thy power throughout the universe displayed. O mighty God, when I survey in wonder The world that formed when once the word you said, The strands of life all woven close together, The whole creation at your table fed, When through the woods and forest glades I wander And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees; When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur And hear the brook and feel the gentle breeze: When your voice speaks in rolls of thunder pealing, Your lightning power bursts in bright surprise; When cooling rain, your gentle love revealing, Reflects your promise, arcing through the skies. My soul cries out in songs of praise to you, O mighty God! O mighty God! My soul cries out in songs of praise to you, O mighty God! O mighty God! Fixit ~ I love that song, How Great Thou Art ~ especially sung by Alan Jackson in this video.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcF75h4BHk8 How Great Thou Art ~ Alan Jackson
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