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Post by faune on Aug 19, 2014 16:14:44 GMT -5
Matisse ~ Could you elaborate on this experience you mentioned above associated with your lost of faith and what inner resources you replaced it with later on? I hope you don't mind me asking this question of you? I'm truly curious as to what sparked this turn of events in your life and what you found as a replacement for your lost faith in a Creator God? When you speak of "numbness and despair" being felt for the first seven (7) years afterward, I take it that it was no easy process for you to shift gears in this area? So, what helped you cope through this storm or dark valley in your life? (If you choose to answer via PM rather than on this Board, that's fine with me, too.) Faune, this is a very large set of questions! I have written about some of these things in the past. I will send you links to a couple of old posts. Other aspects I am only beginning to try to articulate....these will take me time to put into a form that I am willing to share more widely. But it is something I would like to do, so stay tuned. Thanks for asking. Matisse ~ Thanks for your answer. Also, please feel free to PM me, if you would feel more comfortable? However, I do feel your story would be worth sharing and could be a help to others in transition from the 2x2's. I only remember bits and pieces from past posts, but would appreciate a broader picture of your spiritual journey. I also remember you as a young teen at Milford Convention in New Hampshire back in the early 1970's. You were waiting on the workers tables back then, if I rememember right? Hard to believe that was over 40 years ago, huh?
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Post by faune on Aug 19, 2014 16:25:42 GMT -5
Hitler and his regime were Christian, according to some of our TMB sages. Are you saying Hitler's people executed a fellow Christian? Yes -- if they were gay, Communist, gypsy, mentally retarded, twins, non-Caucasian, Jewish converts to Christianity. The ancestors of modern Christianity are on record as having roasted brazier style any Christian who disagreed with them. Hitler was just like most other Christians -- he thought most people who called themselves Christians were frauds and worthy of non-Christian treatment. Bob ~ I can see you are up on Adolph Hitler and his many prejudices and religious views. This Wiki article below pretty much sums up his connection to religion and the Roman Catholic Church when young. However, by the time he came to power, he was definitely anti-Christian along with a lot of other things that displeased him. Reading a biolography on Hitler in the past along with his autobiological book, Mein Kampf, it became obvious to me that he really was a lunatic with a borderline personality disorder, although a charismatic leader in Germany's history.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler
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Post by Mary on Aug 20, 2014 3:10:00 GMT -5
Was Hitler a Christian. Seems as if he was not and set out to destroy Christianity and the church. Read for yourself. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_viewsSome extracts: In Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, Alan Bullock, wrote that Hitler was a rationalist and a materialist with no feeling for the spiritual or emotional side of human existence: a "man who believed neither in God nor in conscience ('a Jewish invention, a blemish like circumcision')".[ In the long run, Hitler intended to destroy the influence of the Christian churches:[30] He promoted the idea of God as the creator of Germany, but Hitler "was not a Christian in any accepted meaning of that word."[51] Domarus also points out that Hitler did not believe in organized religion and did not see himself as a religious reformer.[51] Extensive transcripts on Hitler's thoughts on religion are contained within Hitler's Table Talk. Between 1941 and 1944, Hitler's words were recorded in these transcripts.[86] The transcripts concern not only Hitler's views on war and foreign affairs, but also his characteristic attitudes on religion, culture, philosophy, personal aspirations, and his feelings towards his enemies and friends.[87] Within the transcripts, Hitler speaks of Christianity as "absurdity" and "humbug" founded on "lies" with which he could "never come personally to terms According to the Goebbels Diaries, Hitler hated Christianity. In an 8 April 1941 entry, Goebbels wrote "He hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity." Hitler, wrote Goebbels, saw the pre-Christian Augustinian Age as the high point of history and could not relate to the Gothic mind, nor "brooding mysticism".[5] In another entry, Goebbels wrote that Hitler was "deeply religious but entirely anti-Christian."[96][97] Goebbels wrote on 29 December 1939:[98] The Fuhrer is deeply religious, though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race. This can be seen in the similarity of their religious rites. Both (Judaism and Christianity) have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end they will be destroyed. The Fuhrer is a convinced vegetarian on principle. — Goebbels Diaries, 29 December 1939 Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939 a conversation in which Hitler had "expressed his revulsion against Christianity. He wished that the time were ripe for him to be able to openly express that. Christianity had corrupted and infected the entire world of antiquity."[ According to Marshall Dill, one of the greatest challenges the Nazi state faced in its effort to "eradicate Christianity in Germany or at least subjugate it to their general world outlook Because of the long history of Christianity in Germany, Hitler could not attack Christianity as openly as he did Judaism, Communism or other political opponents.[151] The list of Nazi affronts to and attacks on the Catholic Church is long.[152] The attacks tended not to be overt, but were still dangerous; believers were made to feel that they were not good Germans and their leaders were painted as treasonous and contemptible. Hitler issued a statement[when?] saying that he wished to avoid factional disputes in Germany's churches.[154] He feared the political power that the churches had, and did not want to openly antagonize that political base until he had securely gained control of the country. Once in power Hitler showed his contempt for "non-Aryan" religion and sought to eliminate it from areas under his rule.[155][156] Within Hitler's Nazi Party, some atheists were quite vocal, especially Martin Bormann.[157] According to Goebbels Hitler hated Christianity.[158] In 1939, Goebbels wrote that the Fuhrer knew that he would "have to get around to a conflict between church and state" but that in the meantime "The best way to deal with the churches is to claim to be a 'positive Christian'"."[149] Bullock wrote that, "once the war was over, [Hitler] promised himself, he would root out and destroy the influence of the Christian Churches".[207]
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Post by matisse on Aug 20, 2014 3:59:27 GMT -5
Not so fast, Mary! You left out the warning at the top of the article indicating that the neutrality of the article is being disputed: If you look at the "Talk Page" for this disputed article, you will discover people going around in circles arguing about the validity of sources and complaining about apologists, just like we do here on TMB. Here is part of one challenge to the article: Did you check out any of this before declaring, possibly quite erroneously, that Hitler was not Christian?
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Post by Mary on Aug 20, 2014 4:34:18 GMT -5
There seems to be enough quotes to weigh things up for ourselves. The article does give both sides.
Some deny the holocaust even occurred too.
There are disputes on the articles about the 2x2s on Wikipedia as well.
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Post by matisse on Aug 20, 2014 4:57:03 GMT -5
There seems to be enough quotes to weigh things up for ourselves. The article does give both sides. You made a declaration of "fact" about Hitler, posted only the part of the article that supported your POV and failed to mention that there is continuing controversy about the claim. At least you provided a link. Yes, and people with this point of view can contribute to Wikipedia pages. I would expect that some of the same people who go around in circles about the 2x2s in places like TMB will go around in circles about the 2x2s on Wikipedia. Anyone can edit Wikipedia pages, so anyone with an agenda can distort their content.
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Post by Mary on Aug 20, 2014 5:09:15 GMT -5
Who says that the ones who want to change articles are not wanting to distort facts too. I gave the link for people to read it themselves.
I did not see the quote on the controversy but like you, people can read the quote there. Thanks for pointing it out. I still believe that there seems to be both sides of the story on Hitler there.
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Post by matisse on Aug 20, 2014 5:36:48 GMT -5
Who says that the ones who want to change articles are not wanting to distort facts too. I gave the link for people to read it themselves. I did not see the quote on the controversy but like you, people can read the quote there. Thanks for pointing it out. I still believe that there seems to be both sides of the story on Hitler there. So why not declare that there appears to be controversy rather than declare that Hitler was not Christian?
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Post by snow on Aug 20, 2014 10:43:37 GMT -5
Who says that the ones who want to change articles are not wanting to distort facts too. I gave the link for people to read it themselves. I did not see the quote on the controversy but like you, people can read the quote there. Thanks for pointing it out. I still believe that there seems to be both sides of the story on Hitler there. So why not declare that there appears to be controversy rather than declare that Hitler was not Christian? It seems that some Christians have decided that they are allowed to declare that some other Christians that have said they are Christian, are in fact not Christian. Anyone that they don't like, or agree with is not a Christian. Larger Christian sects call smaller Christian sects, cults. To the RCC everyone that wasn't RCC was heretical and to be exterminated at one time. If that was still allowed, I wonder what the fate of some Christians and their various sects would be?
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Post by rational on Aug 20, 2014 10:54:35 GMT -5
Was Hitler a Christian. Seems as if he was not and set out to destroy Christianity and the church. Read for yourself. You posted a lot about what others claimed. He said he was a christian. Perhaps people do not believe him or will simply say that he was not a 'real christian'. You claim you are a christian and I believe you. Hitler claimed he was a christian. Graham Capill claimed he was a christian. Warren Jeffs claimed he was a christian. Ervil LeBaron claimed he was a christian. Does what others think about them matter? Regarding Hitler - look to the source: My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.A quote from a speech given by HitlerHence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.Hitler (Mein Kampf)My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited. A quote from a speech given by Hitler
We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people. Hitler (Mein Kampf)
National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity. Hitler (Mein Kampf)
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Post by faune on Aug 20, 2014 11:12:42 GMT -5
Rational ~ After reading Mein Kampf myself in the past, it became obvious to me that Hitler was very delusional in his thinking even before he became a leader in the Third Reich. However, even some of the men you mentioned in your post, including Hitler, claimed to be following their religious views, although their behavior didn't back up their profession. Hitler lost interest in religion early on in his life, but saw how he could use it to further his agenda and skillfully did this in the beginning. Unfortunately, later it became apparent that this was all a big put-on to gain the people's approval. Then, once he had gained power, things changed drastically over time due to his many prejudices coming into play. Bob brought this fact out within his earlier post.
Bob shared earlier...
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Post by rational on Aug 20, 2014 13:40:27 GMT -5
Without reposting what you wrote: The point was that Hitler said he was a christian. I listed others who said they were christians. The argument here is not about what people feel in the cockles of their heart but what they claim they are. Shen someone says they are a christian and donates $1 million no one says they are not really a christian.
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Post by fixit on Aug 20, 2014 14:23:18 GMT -5
Without reposting what you wrote: The point was that Hitler said he was a christian. I listed others who said they were christians. The argument here is not about what people feel in the cockles of their heart but what they claim they are. Shen someone says they are a christian and donates $1 million no one says they are not really a christian. Have you ever said you are a Christian?
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Post by xna on Aug 20, 2014 14:35:02 GMT -5
The Hitler SS belt buckle said "god with us". The SS god was the Christian god. To me this is the smoking gun for the Hitler - Christian connection. I don't see WWII as a Christian problem but more of a mad man problem.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 20, 2014 14:49:31 GMT -5
Yes -- if they were gay, Communist, gypsy, mentally retarded, twins, non-Caucasian, Jewish converts to Christianity. The ancestors of modern Christianity are on record as having roasted brazier style any Christian who disagreed with them. Hitler was just like most other Christians -- he thought most people who called themselves Christians were frauds and worthy of non-Christian treatment. Bob ~ I can see you are up on Adolph Hitler and his many prejudices and religious views. This Wiki article below pretty much sums up his connection to religion and the Roman Catholic Church when young. However, by the time he came to power, he was definitely anti-Christian along with a lot of other things that displeased him. Reading a biolography on Hitler in the past along with his autobiological book, Mein Kampf, it became obvious to me that he really was a lunatic with a borderline personality disorder, although a charismatic leader in Germany's history.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler
I have, in fact, read a full library shelf on Hitler. The most startling couple of volumes were reviews of how he came to power, and who supported and covered for him when he was in power. My research project on him was "Who Knew What?" Everything he was doing was found to be published in daily newspapers from the very beginning, and his only solid supporters were Christians. Of course, he astoundingly embarrassed them and all his non-German Christian admirers, such that they have been desperately trying to disassociate themselves from him ever since. Ironically, his admirers today come largely from Christian cultures.
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Post by fixit on Aug 20, 2014 14:49:48 GMT -5
The Hitler SS belt buckle said "god with us". The SS god was the Christian god. To me this is the smoking gun for the Hitler - Christian connection. I don't see WWII as a Christian problem but more of a mad man problem. If I wore a t-shirt with Allāhu Akbar on it, would I be a Muslim?
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 20, 2014 14:54:57 GMT -5
There seems to be enough quotes to weigh things up for ourselves. The article does give both sides. Some deny the holocaust even occurred too. There are disputes on the articles about the 2x2s on Wikipedia as well. And do you know why there are these denials? Because the Christians were so astoundingly embarrassed about all the support they gave him that they have been desperately trying to divorce themselves from him ever since. Have you heard the expression, "The lady doth too much protest."? It's like the Christian fundamentalists today trying to say that such people as Catholics and "Protestants" aren't "Christians". It's just a cheap display of self righteousness, really.
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Post by fixit on Aug 20, 2014 14:55:37 GMT -5
Ironically, his admirers today come largely from Christian cultures. And Muslim.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 20, 2014 14:56:59 GMT -5
Who says that the ones who want to change articles are not wanting to distort facts too. I gave the link for people to read it themselves. I did not see the quote on the controversy but like you, people can read the quote there. Thanks for pointing it out. I still believe that there seems to be both sides of the story on Hitler there. Remember the little lecture I volunteered on Wikipedia? Someone thought I was being a smart-alec, so I won't repeat it.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 20, 2014 15:02:44 GMT -5
Ironically, his admirers today come largely from Christian cultures. And Muslim. Excuse me. Where are the Muslim Nazis? Muslims and Nazis are sworn enemies. Any non-white non-Christian who has anything to do with Nazism is committing suicide. You can't assume that Muslims are EVERYTHING you don't like, you know.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 20, 2014 15:05:00 GMT -5
The Hitler SS belt buckle said "god with us". The SS god was the Christian god. To me this is the smoking gun for the Hitler - Christian connection. I don't see WWII as a Christian problem but more of a mad man problem. If I wore a t-shirt with Allāhu Akbar on it, would I be a Muslim? No.
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Post by xna on Aug 20, 2014 15:08:53 GMT -5
The Hitler SS belt buckle said "god with us". The SS god was the Christian god. To me this is the smoking gun for the Hitler - Christian connection. I don't see WWII as a Christian problem but more of a mad man problem. If I wore a t-shirt with Allāhu Akbar on it, would I be a Muslim? That would be the message I would get from your T- shirt. When I see a crucifix around someone neck I get the message they are RC. Hitler's SS were clearly making the Christian identification with their belt buckles. Atheist's could wear a t-shirt with Allāhu Akbar but that's typically not the way I find the world of T-shirts to work. Further there are Christians who would wear a Christian t-shirt, & tell you they are a Christian, and yet another Christian will say they are not true Christians. These cases are more common, and more like the Hitler Christian connection.
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Post by fixit on Aug 20, 2014 15:31:47 GMT -5
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 20, 2014 16:19:36 GMT -5
Do you know about the Christian-Communist connection during WWII? It was somewhat like the Muslim-Nazi connection during WWII. "We both want the same thing tonight, but tomorrow I will still find you disgusting." It was a World War -- We were on the side of the USSR and Communist China. You're amazing. Christians don't have to acknowledge their support of Hitler during WWII, but Muslims do. Maybe a visit to an American prison would give you a better picture of which idiot group likes which other idiot group, and it's never Nazis and Muslims.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 20, 2014 16:20:51 GMT -5
Michael Shermer's column in Scientific American about Surviving Statistics caused me to think about people who believe a prayer has been answered.
They ignore the many prayers that have NOT been answered. They also don't consider other factors in the situation.
Shermer gives the story that many of us has heard about Steve Jobs creation of the Apple company.
It sounds simple, "drop out of college, start a business with your buddies in a garage of your parents home."
We know Steve Jobs success story, but do we know the many others who used that formula and it didn't work? How many other factors aren't taken into consideration?
Shermer points out those factors, "Raising venture capital and then getting their start-up to an initial public offering (IPO) or acquisition of another company. " "So for every wealthy start-up founder, there are 100 other entrepreneurs who end up with only a cluttered garage."
So in is with prayers. The number that aren't "answered" is ignored. Also other factors aren't taken into consideration, e.g., the medical assistance that attended the positive outcome of the "answered prayer ."
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Post by fixit on Aug 20, 2014 17:05:32 GMT -5
Do you know about the Christian-Communist connection during WWII? It was somewhat like the Muslim-Nazi connection during WWII. "We both want the same thing tonight, but tomorrow I will still find you disgusting." It was a World War -- We were on the side of the USSR and Communist China. You're amazing. Christians don't have to acknowledge their support of Hitler during WWII, but Muslims do. Maybe a visit to an American prison would give you a better picture of which idiot group likes which other idiot group, and it's never Nazis and Muslims. You made the statement: Ironically, his admirers today come largely from Christian cultures. I'm providing balance. There is ample evidence that Muslims were admirers a Hitler and the Nazis.
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Post by xna on Aug 20, 2014 19:29:06 GMT -5
The Hitler SS belt buckle said "god with us". The SS god was the Christian god. To me this is the smoking gun for the Hitler - Christian connection. I don't see WWII as a Christian problem but more of a mad man problem. On a side note, I visited Yad Vashem in Jerusalem last year, Israel's official memorial to the victims of the Holocaust and I noticed they added several photo exhibits of Christians giving the nazi salute. This is a recent development as the old exhibit did not include this part of history. I was surprised they included this exhibit, as many of the visitors there are Christians & I suspect it must shock and offend. Do a google image search for "clergy nazi salute" en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yad_VashemBetrayal: German Churches and the Holocaust [Kindle Edition] Robert P. Ericksen (Author), Susannah Heschel (Editor) www.amazon.com/Betrayal-Churches-Holocaust-Robert-Ericksen-ebook/dp/B004Z1RFXA/ref=tmm_kin_title_0/177-6285371-3438838
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 20, 2014 20:06:27 GMT -5
The Hitler SS belt buckle said "god with us". The SS god was the Christian god. To me this is the smoking gun for the Hitler - Christian connection. I don't see WWII as a Christian problem but more of a mad man problem. On a side note, I visited Yad Vashem in Jerusalem last year, Israel's official memorial to the victims of the Holocaust and I noticed they added several photo exhibits of Christians giving the nazi salute. This is a recent development as the old exhibit did not include this part of history. I was surprised they included this exhibit, as many of the visitors there are Christians & I suspect it must shock and offend. Do a google image search for "clergy nazi salute" en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yad_VashemBetrayal: German Churches and the Holocaust [Kindle Edition] Robert P. Ericksen (Author), Susannah Heschel (Editor) www.amazon.com/Betrayal-Churches-Holocaust-Robert-Ericksen-ebook/dp/B004Z1RFXA/ref=tmm_kin_title_0/177-6285371-3438838 Maybe they are getting a tired of some Christians who say they support Israel, but only do so because they believe that the Jewish people will & must convert to Christianity before the coming of the Christ.
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