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Post by rational on Aug 20, 2014 20:15:32 GMT -5
Without reposting what you wrote: The point was that Hitler said he was a christian. I listed others who said they were christians. The argument here is not about what people feel in the cockles of their heart but what they claim they are. Shen someone says they are a christian and donates $1 million no one says they are not really a christian. Have you ever said you are a Christian? Not that I can remember. Certainly not in public speeches or publications. Can you think of any reason why I would say I was a christian?
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 20, 2014 20:17:23 GMT -5
Do you know about the Christian-Communist connection during WWII? It was somewhat like the Muslim-Nazi connection during WWII. "We both want the same thing tonight, but tomorrow I will still find you disgusting." It was a World War -- We were on the side of the USSR and Communist China. You're amazing. Christians don't have to acknowledge their support of Hitler during WWII, but Muslims do. Maybe a visit to an American prison would give you a better picture of which idiot group likes which other idiot group, and it's never Nazis and Muslims. You made the statement: Ironically, his admirers today come largely from Christian cultures. I'm providing balance. There is ample evidence that Muslims were admirers a Hitler and the Nazis. I said "today", and you said 65 years ago. That's not balance.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 20, 2014 20:40:33 GMT -5
Maybe they are getting a tired of some Christians who say they support Israel, but only do so because they believe that the Jewish people will & must convert to Christianity before the coming of the Christ.
Christian support for the Jews is totally a post-WWII phemonenon. From Roman times up to WWII Christians considered Jews the scum of the earth. Faced with the outcome of the Holocaust, Christianity has not yet fully accepted their responsibility in the whole matter. And prior to WWII there was no "Israel" to support. The horror of the whole ordeal was not just that 6 million Jews were slaughtered, 5 million "subhuman" Christians were killed in the death camps as well. The Christian world has not yet demonstrated much remorse for the fates of those 5 million because they still have problems accepting them as worthy human beings. Fully 25 million Russians were killed during WWII -- half of all the deaths in all the countries involved in the war. If any Holocaust Museum is going to accurately record what happened during the Holocaust, they absolutely must have some evidence that their only enemies at the time were not just the Nazis, but all od Christendom. I'm old enough to remember what people used to say about Jews circa 1950. The only reason Fundamentalist Christians are so supportive now is because they are obsessed with the return of "Christ".
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Post by fixit on Aug 20, 2014 21:12:07 GMT -5
You made the statement: Ironically, his admirers today come largely from Christian cultures.I'm providing balance. There is ample evidence that Muslims were admirers a Hitler and the Nazis. I said "today", and you said 65 years ago. That's not balance. Can you substantiate your claim?
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 20, 2014 22:12:29 GMT -5
I said "today", and you said 65 years ago. That's not balance. Can you substantiate your claim? Yes
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 20, 2014 22:22:27 GMT -5
Can you substantiate your claim? Yes On second thought, no. 2014 - 1944 = 70 According to my calculator.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 20, 2014 22:30:16 GMT -5
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Post by irvinegrey on Aug 21, 2014 6:55:36 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Aug 21, 2014 8:02:00 GMT -5
He is indeed one of the 'fruits' who claims to be an atheist. This is an ethical/moral issue and reflects Dawkins' view on the subject. Or were you just trying to paint all atheists with a broad brush based on the comments of a single person who just happens to be an atheist? He is also British. Do you think he represents everyone in the UK? Could be a good topic(s) for discussion. What is the ethical course of action if parents are informed that the fetus has birth defects? Suppose they are severe birth defects? Does it make a difference if the parents do not have the resources to care for a child born with severe birth defects? If the parents cannot care for the child then what? Would the parents in Yakima, WA have had babies with anencephaly if they had the choice? Would it have been ethical to carry the fetus to term if they had the choice?
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Post by placid-void on Aug 21, 2014 8:32:57 GMT -5
He is indeed one of the 'fruits' who claims to be an atheist. This is an ethical/moral issue and reflects Dawkins' view on the subject. Or were you just trying to paint all atheists with a broad brush based on the comments of a single person who just happens to be an atheist? He is also British. Do you think he represents everyone in the UK? Could be a good topic(s) for discussion. What is the ethical course of action if parents are informed that the fetus has birth defects? Suppose they are severe birth defects? Does it make a difference if the parents do not have the resources to care for a child born with severe birth defects? If the parents cannot care for the child then what? Would the parents in Yakima, WA have had babies with anencephaly if they had the choice? Would it have been ethical to carry the fetus to term if they had the choice? On this issue, rational, I agree with you. The ethical questions involved in this debate are much more challenging than the triteness of the current debate between those who do and those who do not embrace the concept of a transcendent consciousness. Richard Dawkins is but one voice among billions. In my opinion, his celebrity affords his POV no greater import than any other member of the species on issues of morality. He just has a bigger microphone than most of us. Whether or not his access to that microphone is justifiable is a different question, subject to individual opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2014 9:07:39 GMT -5
Irvine Lest we forget, here is one of the fruits of the Christian God. The Tenth Plague: Death of Firstborn (Exodus 12)29 And it came to pass at midnight, that the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. 30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.Which do you think is more immoral; lawfully aborting a foetus which has diagnosed with Downs Syndrome or slaughtering every firstborn child (of whatever age) in every household of the Egyptians? Regards Matt10
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Post by irvinegrey on Aug 21, 2014 11:36:01 GMT -5
Irvine Lest we forget, here is one of the fruits of the Christian God. The Tenth Plague: Death of Firstborn (Exodus 12)29 And it came to pass at midnight, that the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. 30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.Which do you think is more immoral; lawfully aborting a foetus which has diagnosed with Downs Syndrome or slaughtering every firstborn child (of whatever age) in every household of the Egyptians? Regards Matt10 In context, Pharaoh had many less warnings before this one but refused to heed these. This judgement was carried out by God in His Sovereignty and rightly or wrongly, I do not question the actions of God but I will question the mutterings of Dawkins and those of a similar ilk who act and talk like a god. I think this is one for a discussion over a glass of fine Merlot!
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Post by faune on Aug 21, 2014 11:50:21 GMT -5
The Hitler SS belt buckle said "god with us". The SS god was the Christian god. To me this is the smoking gun for the Hitler - Christian connection. I don't see WWII as a Christian problem but more of a mad man problem. On a side note, I visited Yad Vashem in Jerusalem last year, Israel's official memorial to the victims of the Holocaust and I noticed they added several photo exhibits of Christians giving the nazi salute. This is a recent development as the old exhibit did not include this part of history. I was surprised they included this exhibit, as many of the visitors there are Christians & I suspect it must shock and offend. Do a google image search for "clergy nazi salute" en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yad_VashemBetrayal: German Churches and the Holocaust [Kindle Edition] Robert P. Ericksen (Author), Susannah Heschel (Editor) www.amazon.com/Betrayal-Churches-Holocaust-Robert-Ericksen-ebook/dp/B004Z1RFXA/ref=tmm_kin_title_0/177-6285371-3438838Xna ~ I have to admit, you have done your research on the Third Reich! I found this article recently that clearly portrays Hitler when he first came to power and how he used the RCC to promote his political agenda, although he really wasn't a believer in the RCC and actually made fun of them in his memoirs.
www.liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/Hitlersfaith-1.html
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Post by xna on Aug 21, 2014 12:10:11 GMT -5
In context, Pharaoh had many less warnings before this one but refused to heed these. This judgement was carried out by God in His Sovereignty and rightly or wrongly, I do not question the actions of God but I will question the mutterings of Dawkins and those of a similar ilk who act and talk like a god. I think this is one for a discussion over a glass of fine Merlot! -------- . Perhaps after the 2nd bottle Exodus 10:30 would seems to be a moral act, considering the consequences. ;-) Exodus 10:20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go.
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Post by faune on Aug 21, 2014 12:29:53 GMT -5
The Hitler SS belt buckle said "god with us". The SS god was the Christian god. To me this is the smoking gun for the Hitler - Christian connection. I don't see WWII as a Christian problem but more of a mad man problem. On a side note, I visited Yad Vashem in Jerusalem last year, Israel's official memorial to the victims of the Holocaust and I noticed they added several photo exhibits of Christians giving the nazi salute. This is a recent development as the old exhibit did not include this part of history. I was surprised they included this exhibit, as many of the visitors there are Christians & I suspect it must shock and offend. Do a google image search for "clergy nazi salute" en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yad_VashemBetrayal: German Churches and the Holocaust [Kindle Edition] Robert P. Ericksen (Author), Susannah Heschel (Editor) www.amazon.com/Betrayal-Churches-Holocaust-Robert-Ericksen-ebook/dp/B004Z1RFXA/ref=tmm_kin_title_0/177-6285371-3438838Xna ~ If there are still any doubters about the RCC's affection for Hitler during those early years, here's some pictures of that famous "clergy Nazi salute" you referenced above. The Swatika was nothing more than Hitler's version of the Cross to represent the German Nazi Party.
alamoministries.com/content/english/Antichrist/nazigallery/photogallery.html
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Post by xna on Aug 21, 2014 12:51:00 GMT -5
To me he was a mad man. I am far from an expert on Hitler, but I have visited several concentrations camps in Europe. I have one close friend who escaped a camp with his tattoos intact. It's a hard thing to watch people tour these concentration camps where some of their family died. It makes you think what went wrong with their thinking? I'm told WW2 converted many Jews to atheists. I have concluded there is a common theme of harm between Hitler and any religion when the follower stops questioning and turns off their brain to blindly following orders / scripture. Good people do bad things when this happens. I don't think any group would claim Hitler today other than a white supremacist groups. Some of them use a Christian element to further their cause like Hitler. From what I have read the RCC has yet to excommunicated Hitler by name.
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Post by faune on Aug 21, 2014 13:05:34 GMT -5
To me he was a mad man. I am far from an expert on Hitler, but I have visited several concentrations camps in Europe. I have one close friend who escaped a camp with his tattoos intact. It's a hard thing to watch people tour these concentration camps where some of their family died. It makes you think what went wrong with their thinking? I'm told WW2 converted many Jews to atheists. I have concluded there is a common theme of harm between Hitler and any religion when the follower stops questioning and turns off their brain to blindly following orders / scripture. Good people do bad things when this happens. I don't think any group would claim Hitler today other than a white supremacist groups. Some of them use a Christian element to further their cause like Hitler. From what I have read the RCC has yet to excommunicated Hitler by name. Xna ~ I completely agree with everything you posted above. Also, I don't believe Hitler ever did get excommunicated from the RCC, but some of this Catholic leaders did get the ax later. Nothing quite like the double standards you see in religions who claim to be the one and only way to Heaven, huh? I don't doubt that many who saw and experienced the atrocities in Hitler's death camps became atheists afterward. That would be enough to change anybody's religious beliefs, IMHO. However, Jewish view of the afterlife and Heaven is different from the Christian view in many ways ~ much like the O.T. is from the N.T.
Here's an interesting short video on this subject of why Hitler was not excommunicated from the Catholic Church along with other comments relating to this time in history from viewers.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0ygAjG2OYM
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 21, 2014 13:26:14 GMT -5
Xna ~ I have to admit, you have done your research on the Third Reich! I found this article recently that clearly portrays Hitler when he first came to power and how he used the RCC to promote his political agenda, although he really wasn't a believer in the RCC and actually made fun of them in his memoirs. [/p] [/quote] I think we also have to remember that not all Christians feel compelled to behave lockstep conformist to their denominational creed as do fundamentalist Christians. Catholics don't mind saying what's wrong with the church or even making fun of its practices or teachings -- they traditionally do what is expected of them, and the church doesn't dispute with them until they become a problem for the church. Fundamentalist Christians, on the other hand, regard themselves as being personally God's light/example to the world, and for them there is no one to complain about or make fun of but God. This makes it easy to understand why the church supported Hitler for a long time. Hitler did a lot of good things for the German people that the Catholic church believes in, and he did a lot of things for Christian Germans to bring them out of abject poverty. Politically he was a conservative Christian's dream. He really didn't do anything to make Christians disown him until he embarrassed them in front of the rest of the world. Ironically, he did most of his madness while Christians still thought he was great, but the rest of the thinking world knew exactly what was coming.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 21, 2014 15:47:17 GMT -5
Irvine Lest we forget, here is one of the fruits of the Christian God. The Tenth Plague: Death of Firstborn (Exodus 12)29 And it came to pass at midnight, that the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. 30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.Which do you think is more immoral; lawfully aborting a foetus which has diagnosed with Downs Syndrome or slaughtering every firstborn child (of whatever age) in every household of the Egyptians? Regards Matt10 In context, Pharaoh had many less warnings before this one but refused to heed these. This judgement was carried out by God in His Sovereignty and rightly or wrongly, I do not question the actions of God but I will question the mutterings of Dawkins and those of a similar ilk who act and talk like a god. I think this is one for a discussion over a glass of fine Merlot!
And I think such flippant answer shows a considerable lack of empathy for the problems that parents as well as the rest of humanity face in birth defects.
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Post by irvinegrey on Aug 21, 2014 16:52:51 GMT -5
And I think such flippant answer shows a considerable lack of empathy for the problems that parents as well as the rest of humanity face in birth defects.
There is nothing in my response that shows a lack of empathy with those who have birth defects. I guess it is what you have underlined that you take issue with. However, in the past Matt 10 and I have met and had warm and interesting discussions over a fine Merlot which I think is much more civilised than hiding behind the anonymity of a pseudonym on the TMB. Therefore my response is not as flippant as you infer!
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Post by rational on Aug 21, 2014 17:43:24 GMT -5
In context, Pharaoh had many less warnings before this one but refused to heed these. Really? I thought that after a number of those warnings Pharaoh was willing to accept the demands but "the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart" and hit him with another plague just to demonstrate his power.
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Post by bubbles on Aug 21, 2014 18:51:54 GMT -5
Empathy seems to be diminishing in some humans.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 21, 2014 19:15:46 GMT -5
Empathy seems to be diminishing in some humans. It usually does when religious dogma dictates morality.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 21, 2014 20:05:40 GMT -5
And I think such flippant answer shows a considerable lack of empathy for the problems that parents as well as the rest of humanity face in birth defects.
There is nothing in my response that shows a lack of empathy with those who have birth defects. I guess it is what you have underlined that you take issue with. However, in the past Matt 10 and I have met and had warm and interesting discussions over a fine Merlot which I think is much more civilised than hiding behind the anonymity of a pseudonym on the TMB. Therefore my response is not as flippant as you infer! This was your original post Mr. Grey:
"Here is one of the fruits of atheism:
www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/11047072/Richard-Dawkins-immoral-to-allow-Downs-syndrome-babies-to-be-born.htmlMr. Grey, you were the one that that gave the link to the Richard Dawkins site on Downs-syndrome and you were the one who called it "one of the fruits of atheism."
That you have had discussions with Matt 10 over a glass of "fine Merlot" was not been stated before. It sounded as if you thought that was the way to we all ought to handle the problem of the birth defect of Downs-syndrome, -discuss it over a glass of fine Merlot.
Sorry, if I misunderstood you.
Enjoy your Merlot.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2014 20:58:46 GMT -5
Sorry for jumping in here, I just was reading the 1st few pages of this thread and noted the discussion on suicide. Hope I'm not repeating what's already been discussed... Anyway, as a Christian it has always bothered and confused me why Christians seem to be the most against it? Isn't heaven supposed to be a better place? If you really want to get to a better place and time, you usually take steps to get there. Suicide seems to be a rather sure and definite way to get there. It's not like God can't get along without any of us. It's almost like there's a fear and uncertainty of the hereafter, in other words there isn't actual belief in what's professed/preached.
For example, imo, Jesus death was intentional suicide. After all that's the grand finale he intentionally and purposefully come to earth to do for us. Going to Jerusalem as he did was suicidal, and he knew it. Blaming the Jews is an unfortunate diversionary thought, with lack of understanding what was wanted and intended.
Looking at it personally, how dare anyone tell me I can't die if I want to. Spare me from such people please.
A friend of mine died, and was revived. As he said to me, he was disappointed that they had.
I died once, it wasn't bad, pretty much like being asleep and then waking up, except that it's like no time has passed, and you don't dream. The dying part while still conscious was pretty rough though.
My mother had a stroke a little more than a year ago. Paralysis on one side and pretty much the loss of ability to speak were the effects. As I was taking her to the hospital and she was still able to talk somewhat, I asked her if she was ready to go. I wanted to know so that I could help her in whatever she wished. With difficulty, she was able to articulate "not today". Not that she wasn't ready to go imo, if it so be, but otherwise, let's see what tomorrow may bring. Now, after a slow year and a half of deterioration, it has become clear that she has transitioned from it's okay if I go, to I'd just as soon go, to I don't care, I want to go. Unfortunately, there is no approved, accepted, understanding, "ethical", way for this to happily happen. And Christianity doesn't seem to provide much of a guide. As someone who's lived on a farm, and grew up in a farming community, we used to talk with each other about such situations we'd see others in, and say, y'know, we treat our animals, and especially our pets more humanely (euthanize) than we do our old folks and parents. As I said, spare me please from people who don't want me to kill myself if I want to go. Let me go, please. And here I am almost being the kind of person I want to be spared from.
Ettu
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Post by bubbles on Aug 22, 2014 0:29:56 GMT -5
Empathy seems to be diminishing in some humans. It usually does when religious dogma dictates morality. I beg to differ. The fundamental root of religious dogma originates somewhere else but lets NOT go there!
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 22, 2014 0:38:42 GMT -5
It usually does when religious dogma dictates morality. I beg to differ. The fundamental root of religious dogma originates somewhere else but lets NOT go there! The fundamental root of religious dogma -- what is that? You say something and then not want to talk about it?
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 22, 2014 1:29:56 GMT -5
Sorry for jumping in here, I just was reading the 1st few pages of this thread and noted the discussion on suicide. Hope I'm not repeating what's already been discussed... Anyway, as a Christian it has always bothered and confused me why Christians seem to be the most against it? Isn't heaven supposed to be a better place? If you really want to get to a better place and time, you usually take steps to get there. Suicide seems to be a rather sure and definite way to get there. It's not like God can't get along without any of us. It's almost like there's a fear and uncertainty of the hereafter, in other words there isn't actual belief in what's professed/preached. For example, imo, Jesus death was intentional suicide. After all that's the grand finale he intentionally and purposefully come to earth to do for us. Going to Jerusalem as he did was suicidal, and he knew it. Blaming the Jews is an unfortunate diversionary thought, with lack of understanding what was wanted and intended. Looking at it personally, how dare anyone tell me I can't die if I want to. Spare me from such people please. A friend of mine died, and was revived. As he said to me, he was disappointed that they had. I died once, it wasn't bad, pretty much like being asleep and then waking up, except that it's like no time has passed, and you don't dream. The dying part while still conscious was pretty rough though. My mother had a stroke a little more than a year ago. Paralysis on one side and pretty much the loss of ability to speak were the effects. As I was taking her to the hospital and she was still able to talk somewhat, I asked her if she was ready to go. I wanted to know so that I could help her in whatever she wished. With difficulty, she was able to articulate "not today". Not that she wasn't ready to go imo, if it so be, but otherwise, let's see what tomorrow may bring. Now, after a slow year and a half of deterioration, it has become clear that she has transitioned from it's okay if I go, to I'd just as soon go, to I don't care, I want to go. Unfortunately, there is no approved, accepted, understanding, "ethical", way for this to happily happen. And Christianity doesn't seem to provide much of a guide. As someone who's lived on a farm, and grew up in a farming community, we used to talk with each other about such situations we'd see others in, and say, y'know, we treat our animals, and especially our pets more humanely (euthanize) than we do our old folks and parents. As I said, spare me please from people who don't want me to kill myself if I want to go. Let me go, please. And here I am almost being the kind of person I want to be spared from. Ettu I'm so sorry about your mother. It must be so very hard for you. Being a nurse, I have also saw many people in the same circumstances.
I was with my mother when she died. It was time she went & although I knew that I would personally miss her, I would not have wanted her to continue to suffer.
PS
I believe that you are right about Jesus death being intentional suicide.
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