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Post by rational on Aug 18, 2014 13:27:55 GMT -5
Certainly, I have no doubt you can find others today without belief in God to make such implication as you have to justify your own beliefs -- no doubt at all. It was just on that occasion there simply were none, and none have the right to say otherwise, for each " Skilled Tough Ready Around Clock (S.T.R.A.C.) Ranger on that occasion knew a need outside themselves for help, protection, and preservation, asked for it, and we got it, to the rather obvious chagrin of some like you, today. When you make statements like this it simply causes some to wonder if you got the help you asked for. Certainly many have asked for such help and ended up dead. My father, a theist, once raised the question about the men who died on the beaches of France who he had heard praying for their safety as they approached the beach. It was one of the very few times that my dad expressed any doubt in his belief in god. You say there were no atheists and I have no reason to doubt what you say. You state that god answered your prayers but the effectiveness of prayer has been questioned so many times without positive results that the conclusion you reach, and present as factual, raises questions. I personally have been called a fool for not believing in god, with the scripture thrown in as well, but I do not recall anyone ever calling any theist who posts here a fool or being foolish.Do you have a reference to who has said you are a fool?I am uncertain how a non-believer could try to cram their beliefs down anyones throat. Perhaps some might question your beliefs but you have made them clear enough that I doubt anyone would have to ask. If you state your beliefs as facts I am sure some will raise questions. On an open discussion board where people will ask questions and ask you to support claims made in your posts, if you are unwilling or unable to provide a response then a message board where everyone acknowledges and agrees with every post you make might be a better option. If you don't want people to ask you to support the distorted claims you make regarding others in posts, don't distort what others post.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 18, 2014 13:48:20 GMT -5
Believing in anything or not believing in something, is impossible at birth! It simply is impossible & cannot be innate!
So you believe that fear, emotions of happiness, sadness are all learned and cannot be innate as we are not born with preconceived instincts and knowing. Also according to you our sexuality cannot be determined at birth either so those who claim to be born 'gay' cannot be born gay. It must be learned, you say. You may well be right and I have my opinions on that but will not start another discussion. I have a lot of work to do the next couple of days to catch up with the time I spent on here today. Good time well spent though. Mary, don't tell me what I believe! Don't put words in my mouth that I never said. You & I are discussing what you call is an innate BELIEF, -not emotions nor sexuality.
I never said these sentences that you attribute to me!
1) "according to you our sexuality cannot be determined at birth either so those who claim to be born 'gay' cannot be born gay." 2) "It must be learned, you say."
I resent your putting words in my mouth!
I have no desire to start another discussion with you about anything when you make such blatantly, untrue statements about what supposedly I Think.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 18, 2014 14:32:27 GMT -5
Atheists don't need any kind of "faith," to NOT believe something! Your statement indicates exactly why you don't understand what atheism means!
So last night you sat in a church service where there were people who you believe had their lives transformed by a god?
You believe that because their lives have changed for the better, that the method is justified, even though that method was via a false belief in a paranormal or supernatural being who only exists in the construction of a man-made myth ?
In other words, you believe that "the end justifies the means?"
I would have liked you to answer the question, 'The Christian Gospel is a message that gives hope to those who come in repentance to Christ in faith. What is atheism’s answer to those who struggle with addiction and whose lives that are spiralling out of control?' I would have liked you answer my question, " do you believe that 'the end justifies the means'?"
The 'Christian message' only gives hope to those who must repent something 'to Christ in faith' . They must repent to a 'person' (Christ) who can't be validated as true & by 'faith' which by it's very meaning is a "belief in something for which there is no proof."
It is only when they believe that 'Christian message' are they supposedly able to get help for what is a human error.
So the whole process is based on a unvalidated premise.
They may very well get help from that Christian message, but it comes via an unvalidated premise.
Therefore, I ask you, "do you believe that the end justifies the means?" In other words even though the "end" was a good one for the person, that justifies "a means" that can't even be validated?
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Post by snow on Aug 18, 2014 16:29:58 GMT -5
Wow. That seems like a pretty substantial drop. It's only just over 1% a year. 1% a year based on the entire world population is still a substantial amount of people. Population is 7 billion plus so 1% is a lot of people per year deciding to be atheist. Have always liked this site telling of births etc. www.worldometers.info/world-population/
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 18, 2014 17:17:27 GMT -5
It's only just over 1% a year. 1% a year based on the entire world population is still a substantial amount of people. Population is 7 billion plus so 1% is a lot of people per year deciding to be atheist. Have always liked this site telling of births etc. www.worldometers.info/world-population/ That is an interesting chart.
I knew the world's population had doubled quickly lately. Our first son was born in 1961.
The population has doubled from 3 billion to 6 billion + 1 billion since then. I wonder how many more billions the population would be now without the contraception that has been available since 1961?
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Post by rational on Aug 18, 2014 17:33:26 GMT -5
It's only just over 1% a year. 1% a year based on the entire world population is still a substantial amount of people. Population is 7 billion plus so 1% is a lot of people per year deciding to be atheist. I don't think people decide to be an atheist. This would imply that belief is something that is a conscience decision. As an adult can you make yourself to believe in the tooth fairy? Or that gravity doesn't exist?
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Post by xna on Aug 18, 2014 17:47:30 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Aug 18, 2014 17:58:16 GMT -5
1% a year based on the entire world population is still a substantial amount of people. Population is 7 billion plus so 1% is a lot of people per year deciding to be atheist. I don't think people decide to be an atheist. This would imply that belief is something that is a conscience decision. As an adult can you make yourself to believe in the tooth fairy? Or that gravity doesn't exist? You're right. It isn't a decision. Bad choice of words.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 18, 2014 18:41:31 GMT -5
My comment was there were no atheists amongst that 75th Ranger recon team, and if you wish to say there was, Matisse, well, that is your right for which we could easily have given our very lives. You were not there, and I believe you were not even very old in 1962, if even alive.
Certainly, I have no doubt you can find others today without belief in God to make such implication as you have to justify your own beliefs -- no doubt at all. It was just on that occasion there simply were none, and none have the right to say otherwise, for each "Skilled Tough Ready Around Clock (S.T.R.A.C.) Ranger on that occasion knew a need outside themselves for help, protection, and preservation, asked for it, and we got it, to the rather obvious chagrin of some like you, today.
On other occasions, some DID give their lives for everyone to believe as they wish today. Just as some reveal they think people like me are fools for trusting in a God, surely that is a two way street for (according to Alvin's affore mentioned statistic) 88% of some population, who according to some posting here do not think nor use their brains. Enough is enough, and I've had enough. Everyone has the right to believe as they will, wish or want, I do not cram what I believe down any of your throats, as most of you non-believers attempt to do to those not believing as you.
Edgar and CD had the right idea, just leave. Perhaps a sage example for believers like us... I see no one doubting your claim that there weren't any atheists in that group. You seem to believe that you absolutely know that for sure.
However, I do know there have been times that I would bow my head just as all those men did rather than upset my family or the rest of the people who were praying.
Perhaps my concern for their feelings doesn't justify my being somewhat deceptive. But it seems to me that there are some theists here on this board that do not care about the feelings of we atheists.
These theists seem to believe that the board belongs to them & if we posit what we believe that's different, then we are offending them!
If you and Edgar and CD don't believe atheists have any right to post on here, perhaps you should go to the moderators of the board & list what beliefs are allowed and what beliefs are not allowed.
Then you could have the board to yourselves, (until you begin disputing with one another between those beliefs of course)
I haven't seen where Matisse or any of us posted here "that theists don't use their brains." Nor has Matisse or any atheists expressed that they "think people like (you) are fools for trusting in a God,"
If those ideas come to your mind when you read our explanations of what we believe, is it possible that your own mind is trying to tell you something?
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Post by xna on Aug 18, 2014 19:44:18 GMT -5
I rechecked the boards rules....
"DISCLAIMER: .....New readers should not be surprised or discouraged by the tone of non-believers on the board, who are as welcome as any to post... "
I suspect any discouragement as a result of a non-believer post comes more from the messages "content", than from the messages "tone".
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 18, 2014 21:20:39 GMT -5
Uh uhh, I didn't ask if you "use" a denominational name. I asked if you "usually" use a denominational name -- when you talk to each other, that is. No we do not. As you will see on the statement of faith I posted on one of the threads the other day - it talks about the universal church. That is the body of Christ which is made up of those who accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. Not any particular denomination. Those on this board who have left meetings and identify as Christian are united, not because of the church we go to as we do not know what church most go to. Our church as many Christian churches do not believe we are the only church. Christians usually call those who believe theirs is the only church Christian cults. We are the body of Christ made up of believers not a particular denomination. Thank you. That reduces it to a specific sector of Christianity. Christians without a denomination ...
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 18, 2014 21:42:06 GMT -5
I rechecked the boards rules.... "DISCLAIMER: .....New readers should not be surprised or discouraged by the tone of non-believers on the board, who are as welcome as any to post... " I suspect any discouragement as a result of a non-believer post comes more from the messages "content", than from the messages "tone". I suspect the same. Any "discouragement" that believers experience from hearing what non-believers post, is in the content of what non-believers say.
Comments that are rational & that the 'believer' never heard before.
I remember myself the first time I saw a sign that said "Eve was framed."
I did a double take. My first thought was, "Oh my, That's blasphemy!"
Then I went home & begin to think about it. A lot of thoughts later I became a non-believer in any religion.
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csievers20
New Member
i would like to meet with some of your workers, any help you can give me would be helpfull
Posts: 14
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Post by csievers20 on Aug 18, 2014 22:32:45 GMT -5
Oh I didn't know this so did not ask the question when you made the statement regarding christian salvation vs. muslim salvation. You said that the muslim does not know their fate until they die. How does this differ from the judgement day for christians? Rational ~ Now that all depends on if you are Baptist in belief and adhere to the mantra, "Once saved, always saved." I do attend a Baptist Church myself, by the way, but also hold my own personal opinions regarding different Christian beliefs. I'm more liberal than most Baptists, I would guess? However, the honest truth is that nobody really knows for sure about what transpires after this life has ended and if there's a judgment day or not? It's all based on belief in the Bible as God's Word, and since it says we can expect a judgment day, it's expected by most Christians within Christianity. Some New Age beliefs stress a life review after we die and go back to Source, who's our Creator. Then, a person can choose to stay put or return again through reincarnation in a new life form, if they so choose, due to free will. It's all part of different religious views shared today and they are as different as night is from day, IMHO. So, I guess what better suits a person's personality best is the right fit for them ~ much like you and your own choice of atheism to express your preferences. Just my thoughts. I would like to meet with some people who are workers, if any help you could give me would be helpful. here are some name ken schuebel,dorothy chrisman, don siemens.
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Post by faune on Aug 18, 2014 22:46:37 GMT -5
Rational ~ Now that all depends on if you are Baptist in belief and adhere to the mantra, "Once saved, always saved." I do attend a Baptist Church myself, by the way, but also hold my own personal opinions regarding different Christian beliefs. I'm more liberal than most Baptists, I would guess? However, the honest truth is that nobody really knows for sure about what transpires after this life has ended and if there's a judgment day or not? It's all based on belief in the Bible as God's Word, and since it says we can expect a judgment day, it's expected by most Christians within Christianity. Most New Age beliefs stress a life review after we die and go back to Source, who's our Creator. Then, a person can choose to stay put or return again through reincarnation in a new life form, if they so choose, due to free will. It's all part of different religious views shared today and they are as different as night is from day, IMHO. So, I guess what better suits a person's personality best is the right fit for them ~ much like you and your own choice of atheism to express your preferences. Just my thoughts. I would like to meet with some people who are workers, if any help you could give me would be helpful. here are some name ken schuebel,dorothy chrisman, don siemens. Csievers20 ~ I'm not sure if I understand your post? I departed the 2x2's about 20 years ago and have no contact with workers or friends these days. If you want contact information for these people, I'm afraid I would be no help. However, there may be others on this Board who still profess or know these people and could put you in touch with one of these workers mentioned above?
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Post by fixit on Aug 18, 2014 23:34:40 GMT -5
I rechecked the boards rules.... "DISCLAIMER: .....New readers should not be surprised or discouraged by the tone of non-believers on the board, who are as welcome as any to post... " I suspect any discouragement as a result of a non-believer post comes more from the messages "content", than from the messages "tone". Getting bent out of shape due to a perceived "tone" issue seems silly. However if the board becomes dominated by debate over the existence of God it will lose its usefulness as a Truth fellowship discussion board.
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Post by rational on Aug 19, 2014 0:28:29 GMT -5
"New readers should not be surprised or discouraged by the tone of non-believers on the board, who are as welcome as any to post." Does this mean that new readers should be surprised and discouraged by the tone of believers on the board? Or does it mean that posts with a surprising or discouraging tone could only be made by by non-believers? In either case it seems prejudicial.
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Post by fixit on Aug 19, 2014 0:44:24 GMT -5
"New readers should not be surprised or discouraged by the tone of non-believers on the board, who are as welcome as any to post." Does this mean that new readers should be surprised and discouraged by the tone of believers on the board? Or does it mean that posts with a surprising or discouraging tone could only be made by by non-believers? In either case it seems prejudicial. I don't know.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 19, 2014 1:58:49 GMT -5
"New readers should not be surprised or discouraged by the tone of non-believers on the board, who are as welcome as any to post." Does this mean that new readers should be surprised and discouraged by the tone of believers on the board? Or does it mean that posts with a surprising or discouraging tone could only be made by by non-believers? In either case it seems prejudicial. Sounds like they didn't expect the non-believers to be offended by anything.
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Post by irvinegrey on Aug 19, 2014 4:36:50 GMT -5
I would have liked you to answer the question, 'The Christian Gospel is a message that gives hope to those who come in repentance to Christ in faith. What is atheism’s answer to those who struggle with addiction and whose lives that are spiralling out of control?' I would have liked you answer my question, " do you believe that 'the end justifies the means'?"
The 'Christian message' only gives hope to those who must repent something 'to Christ in faith' . They must repent to a 'person' (Christ) who can't be validated as true & by 'faith' which by it's very meaning is a "belief in something for which there is no proof."
It is only when they believe that 'Christian message' are they supposedly able to get help for what is a human error.
So the whole process is based on a unvalidated premise.
They may very well get help from that Christian message, but it comes via an unvalidated premise.
Therefore, I ask you, "do you believe that the end justifies the means?" In other words even though the "end" was a good one for the person, that justifies "a means" that can't even be validated?
In this case I am not sure what you mean when you ask, ‘do you believe the end justifies the means?’ For you perhaps belief in God and in Jesus Christ is based on an invalidated premise. For many millions over the world God is a living reality. Whether you believe it or not matters little, but there is certainly more historical evidence for the existence of the historical Jesus than for most others who figure in history. I have no doubt that many atheists have emerged from a Christian background of sorts but I submit that no one who has experienced the grace of God in their lives, who has known the peace of God through the forgiveness of their sins when they came to Christ in repentance have ended up atheists. There are many today who may want to claim that they are Christian but in essence they are only intellectual Christians who believe in God and His Word but who have never come to God through Christ as a penitent sinner in need of the great salvation purchased by Christ on Calvary. An example of one such person is John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, brought up in a Christian home, lived a pious life and carried out many good works. Upon graduation from the University of Oxford was ordained into the ministry of the Anglican Church and after a short time as a curate went off to preach in Georgia, US. On Wesley’s own testimony, he was a ‘head Christian but not a heart Christian.’ It was not until his conversion in 1738, some five years after his return from Georgia that Wesley became a follower of Jesus Christ and was instrumental in leading many to faith in Christ. His Christianity was his life in that he also was involved in starting orphanages, schools for the poor, prisoner aid and many other areas of social outreach. We have the old slave trader, John Newton who found Christ and was able to write as his heart experience the hymn, Amazing Grace. Following his conversion he embarked upon Christian ministry and was a lifelong supporter of the abolition of slavery. The founders of the Salvation Army, William and Catherine Booth and their team worked tirelessly amongst the poorest and most disenfranchised of society spreading the good news of the transforming power of Jesus Christ and providing food and shelter for those in need. Their passion for this work came from a living faith in Jesus Christ as the one who could transform lives by His grace. I am presently reading the life of Dietrich Bonhoeffer who paid the ultimate sacrifice just before the end of World War two for his stand against Hitler and the evils of Nazism. It was his living faith in Jesus Christ that drove Bonhoeffer to oppose this evil regime and to work tirelessly along with many others to hide the innocent who faced extermination. At age 39 he was executed because he espoused the values of the Christian faith. In Bonhoeffer's words, 'When God calls a man, He bids Him come and die.'
I recommend the reading of Tim Keller’s, The Prodigal God that will help towards an understanding of what real Christianity is. In the words of James, Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. (James 1:27 ESV)
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Post by fixit on Aug 19, 2014 5:00:18 GMT -5
I am presently reading the life of Dietrich Bonhoeffer who paid the ultimate sacrifice just before the end of World War two for his stand against Hitler and the evils of Nazism. It was his living faith in Jesus Christ that drove Bonhoeffer to oppose this evil regime and to work tirelessly along with many others to hide the innocent who faced extermination. At age 39 he was executed because he espoused the values of the Christian faith. In Bonhoeffer's words, 'When God calls a man, He bids Him come and die.'Hitler and his regime were Christian, according to some of our TMB sages. Are you saying Hitler's people executed a fellow Christian?
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Post by matisse on Aug 19, 2014 5:44:00 GMT -5
It is my observation, experience and opinion, Mr. Grey, that we are all human....no more, no less. Atheists appear to me to have the same inner resources as anyone else. Christians draw on their inner resources by convincing themselves that a supernatural power is helping them. Atheists simply skip that story. I experienced some rough times, including stretches of numbness and despair during the first 7 years after my loss of faith. With the support of people around me, I slowly discovered that I had not lost everything as I thought I had when I lost my faith, but that there remained a rich cache of inner resources - only now without the cloak of Christian belief, and I found my way to healing and wholeness. Matisse ~ Could you elaborate on this experience you mentioned above associated with your lost of faith and what inner resources you replaced it with later on? I hope you don't mind me asking this question of you? I'm truly curious as to what sparked this turn of events in your life and what you found as a replacement for your lost faith in a Creator God? When you speak of "numbness and despair" being felt for the first seven (7) years afterward, I take it that it was no easy process for you to shift gears in this area? ??? So, what helped you cope through this storm or dark valley in your life? (If you choose to answer via PM rather than on this Board, that's fine with me, too.) Faune, this is a very large set of questions! I have written about some of these things in the past. I will send you links to a couple of old posts. Other aspects I am only beginning to try to articulate....these will take me time to put into a form that I am willing to share more widely. But it is something I would like to do, so stay tuned. Thanks for asking.
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Post by matisse on Aug 19, 2014 8:01:59 GMT -5
I have no doubt that many atheists have emerged from a Christian background of sorts but I submit that no one who has experienced the grace of God in their lives, who has known the peace of God through the forgiveness of their sins when they came to Christ in repentance have ended up atheists. How can you possibly determine the quality of life experience of every person who has left Christianity and ended up an atheist? How can you possibly know how the peace I have found compares to the peace you claim? I submit that this notion of your experience being so vastly superior is one of many lies you MUST tell yourself and others in order to hold your faith together.
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Post by rational on Aug 19, 2014 10:13:05 GMT -5
Whether you believe it or not matters little, but there is certainly more historical evidence for the existence of the historical Jesus than for most others who figure in history. Aside from the record in the bible and material published long after his death, what is the historical evidence? What a perfect example of the No True Scotsman fallacy! "I acknowledge that children have fallen from trees while climbing them but I submit that not one child who has maintained a tight grip on strung sound branches and has descended carefully to the ground by only stepping on sound branches has not fallen while climbing trees." And it happens again! This sounds good in the summary but his conversion, according to him, was in 1748. He continued to transport slaves as the captain of a slave trading ship and did not stop because of any ethical consideration but because he had a stroke. And even after that he continued to gain financially from the slave trade business. It wasn't until 40 years later that he spoke out against the business of slave trading. That could hardly be considered a "lifelong supporter of the abolition of slavery." Your statement: Following his conversion he embarked upon Christian ministry and was a lifelong supporter of the abolition of slavery.is such a distortion of the known facts that it borders on fantasy, the fantasy that his conversion led him to stop slave trading. And the other millions who "paid the ultimate sacrifice"? What drove them? WWII was hardly a christian effort.If most historical records are correct he was executed because he opposed the Nazi euthanasia programs and the genocide of Jews. While these may be the values of many christians they are also moral values upheld by people of many beliefs. To make this look like a christian effort is a distortion of the facts.
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Post by snow on Aug 19, 2014 11:36:58 GMT -5
I would have liked you answer my question, " do you believe that 'the end justifies the means'?"
The 'Christian message' only gives hope to those who must repent something 'to Christ in faith' . They must repent to a 'person' (Christ) who can't be validated as true & by 'faith' which by it's very meaning is a "belief in something for which there is no proof."
It is only when they believe that 'Christian message' are they supposedly able to get help for what is a human error.
So the whole process is based on a unvalidated premise.
They may very well get help from that Christian message, but it comes via an unvalidated premise.
Therefore, I ask you, "do you believe that the end justifies the means?" In other words even though the "end" was a good one for the person, that justifies "a means" that can't even be validated?
In this case I am not sure what you mean when you ask, ‘do you believe the end justifies the means?’ For you perhaps belief in God and in Jesus Christ is based on an invalidated premise. For many millions over the world God is a living reality. Whether you believe it or not matters little, but there is certainly more historical evidence for the existence of the historical Jesus than for most others who figure in history. I have no doubt that many atheists have emerged from a Christian background of sorts but I submit that no one who has experienced the grace of God in their lives, who has known the peace of God through the forgiveness of their sins when they came to Christ in repentance have ended up atheists. There are many today who may want to claim that they are Christian but in essence they are only intellectual Christians who believe in God and His Word but who have never come to God through Christ as a penitent sinner in need of the great salvation purchased by Christ on Calvary. An example of one such person is John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, brought up in a Christian home, lived a pious life and carried out many good works. Upon graduation from the University of Oxford was ordained into the ministry of the Anglican Church and after a short time as a curate went off to preach in Georgia, US. On Wesley’s own testimony, he was a ‘head Christian but not a heart Christian.’ It was not until his conversion in 1738, some five years after his return from Georgia that Wesley became a follower of Jesus Christ and was instrumental in leading many to faith in Christ. His Christianity was his life in that he also was involved in starting orphanages, schools for the poor, prisoner aid and many other areas of social outreach. We have the old slave trader, John Newton who found Christ and was able to write as his heart experience the hymn, Amazing Grace. Following his conversion he embarked upon Christian ministry and was a lifelong supporter of the abolition of slavery. The founders of the Salvation Army, William and Catherine Booth and their team worked tirelessly amongst the poorest and most disenfranchised of society spreading the good news of the transforming power of Jesus Christ and providing food and shelter for those in need. Their passion for this work came from a living faith in Jesus Christ as the one who could transform lives by His grace. I am presently reading the life of Dietrich Bonhoeffer who paid the ultimate sacrifice just before the end of World War two for his stand against Hitler and the evils of Nazism. It was his living faith in Jesus Christ that drove Bonhoeffer to oppose this evil regime and to work tirelessly along with many others to hide the innocent who faced extermination. At age 39 he was executed because he espoused the values of the Christian faith. In Bonhoeffer's words, 'When God calls a man, He bids Him come and die.'
I recommend the reading of Tim Keller’s, The Prodigal God that will help towards an understanding of what real Christianity is. In the words of James, Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. (James 1:27 ESV) Yet another interesting lapse into the land of fantasy of your own making. You claim to know things you can't possibly know about atheists. You distort facts about John Newton. You believe that morality is only a Christian concept. I was once a pretty zealous Christ follower, so much so I thought I had a vision of him once that made me so thrilled and at peace with myself for a long time after. Never forgot that obviously. However, I now understand what it was and while it brought comfort and peace at the time, it wasn't real. When you stop believing in a God, it isn't something you have any control over really. It simply stops and all that was once a comfort no longer is because you realize that there is no proof or substance to it. When that happens the fantasy is over. That's how it worked for me anyway. I know that some people do realize that what they believe is not based on anything but faith, but they prefer their faith to facts. It must be a tough way to live. I do realize that some haven't reached that point and that their beliefs do bring them comfort and peace. I know, because it did once for me too. And, I have no problem with whatever beliefs you need to bring you a sense of safety as long as those beliefs are not harmful to others. But for you to say that some Christians aren't real Christians, or that atheists have never had the experience of God similar to what you have, is pure nonsense. It is also very arrogant and superior sounding and indicates to me a lack of understanding.
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Post by xna on Aug 19, 2014 11:45:32 GMT -5
In this case I am not sure what you mean when you ask, ‘do you believe the end justifies the means?’ For you perhaps belief in God and in Jesus Christ is based on an invalidated premise. For many millions over the world God is a living reality. Whether you believe it or not matters little, but there is certainly more historical evidence for the existence of the historical Jesus than for most others who figure in history. I have no doubt that many atheists have emerged from a Christian background of sorts but I submit that no one who has experienced the grace of God in their lives, who has known the peace of God through the forgiveness of their sins when they came to Christ in repentance have ended up atheists. There are many today who may want to claim that they are Christian but in essence they are only intellectual Christians who believe in God and His Word but who have never come to God through Christ as a penitent sinner in need of the great salvation purchased by Christ on Calvary. An example of one such person is John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, brought up in a Christian home, lived a pious life and carried out many good works. Upon graduation from the University of Oxford was ordained into the ministry of the Anglican Church and after a short time as a curate went off to preach in Georgia, US. On Wesley’s own testimony, he was a ‘head Christian but not a heart Christian.’ It was not until his conversion in 1738, some five years after his return from Georgia that Wesley became a follower of Jesus Christ and was instrumental in leading many to faith in Christ. His Christianity was his life in that he also was involved in starting orphanages, schools for the poor, prisoner aid and many other areas of social outreach. We have the old slave trader, John Newton who found Christ and was able to write as his heart experience the hymn, Amazing Grace. Following his conversion he embarked upon Christian ministry and was a lifelong supporter of the abolition of slavery. The founders of the Salvation Army, William and Catherine Booth and their team worked tirelessly amongst the poorest and most disenfranchised of society spreading the good news of the transforming power of Jesus Christ and providing food and shelter for those in need. Their passion for this work came from a living faith in Jesus Christ as the one who could transform lives by His grace. I am presently reading the life of Dietrich Bonhoeffer who paid the ultimate sacrifice just before the end of World War two for his stand against Hitler and the evils of Nazism. It was his living faith in Jesus Christ that drove Bonhoeffer to oppose this evil regime and to work tirelessly along with many others to hide the innocent who faced extermination. At age 39 he was executed because he espoused the values of the Christian faith. In Bonhoeffer's words, 'When God calls a man, He bids Him come and die.'
I recommend the reading of Tim Keller’s, The Prodigal God that will help towards an understanding of what real Christianity is. In the words of James, Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. (James 1:27 ESV) Yet another interesting lapse into the land of fantasy of your own making. You claim to know things you can't possibly know about atheists. You distort facts about John Newton. You believe that morality is only a Christian concept. I was once a pretty zealous Christ follower, so much so I thought I had a vision of him once that made me so thrilled and at peace with myself for a long time after. Never forgot that obviously. However, I now understand what it was and while it brought comfort and peace at the time, it wasn't real. When you stop believing in a God, it isn't something you have any control over really. It simply stops and all that was once a comfort no longer is because you realize that there is no proof or substance to it. When that happens the fantasy is over. That's how it worked for me anyway. I know that some people do realize that what they believe is not based on anything but faith, but they prefer their faith to facts. It must be a tough way to live. I do realize that some haven't reached that point and that their beliefs do bring them comfort and peace. I know, because it did once for me too. And, I have no problem with whatever beliefs you need to bring you a sense of safety as long as those beliefs are not harmful to others. But for you to say that some Christians aren't real Christians, or that atheists have never had the experience of God similar to what you have, is pure nonsense. It is also very arrogant and superior sounding and indicates to me a lack of understanding. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Attachments:
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 19, 2014 13:45:30 GMT -5
I would have liked you answer my question, " do you believe that 'the end justifies the means'?"
The 'Christian message' only gives hope to those who must repent something 'to Christ in faith' . They must repent to a 'person' (Christ) who can't be validated as true & by 'faith' which by it's very meaning is a "belief in something for which there is no proof."
It is only when they believe that 'Christian message' are they supposedly able to get help for what is a human error.
So the whole process is based on a unvalidated premise.
They may very well get help from that Christian message, but it comes via an unvalidated premise.
Therefore, I ask you, "do you believe that the end justifies the means?" In other words even though the "end" was a good one for the person, that justifies "a means" that can't even be validated?
In this case I am not sure what you mean when you ask, ‘do you believe the end justifies the means?’ For you perhaps belief in God and in Jesus Christ is based on an invalidated premise. For many millions over the world God is a living reality. Whether you believe it or not matters little , but there is certainly more historical evidence for the existence of the historical Jesus than for most others who figure in history. I have no doubt that many atheists have emerged from a Christian background of sorts but I submit that no one who has experienced the grace of God in their lives, who has known the peace of God through the forgiveness of their sins when they came to Christ in repentance have ended up atheists.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This statement is a fallacy in that just because the great number of people believe something, that really doesn't makes it true: "For many millions over the world God is a living reality."
I've heard this one many times: "more historical evidence for the existence of the historical Jesus than for most others who figure in history." Actually there is scant to NO historical evidence for the existence of the historical Jesus outside the NT.
You can't use the same source, the NT or any other book to validate, the arguments within the same book.
By using this argument: "I submit that no one who has experienced the grace of God in their lives, who has known the peace of God through the forgiveness of their sins when they came to Christ in repentance have ended up atheists." you obviously have set yourself up as the judge of who are true Christians. So are you are "all seeing, all knowing. all powerful?" Isn't that a rather huge burden for a person to load upon themselves?
Would you want a list of books that I recommend you read?
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Post by snow on Aug 19, 2014 14:10:11 GMT -5
In this case I am not sure what you mean when you ask, ‘do you believe the end justifies the means?’ For you perhaps belief in God and in Jesus Christ is based on an invalidated premise. For many millions over the world God is a living reality. Whether you believe it or not matters little , but there is certainly more historical evidence for the existence of the historical Jesus than for most others who figure in history. I have no doubt that many atheists have emerged from a Christian background of sorts but I submit that no one who has experienced the grace of God in their lives, who has known the peace of God through the forgiveness of their sins when they came to Christ in repentance have ended up atheists.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This statement is a fallacy in that just because the great number of people believe something, that really doesn't makes it true: "For many millions over the world God is a living reality."
I've heard this one many times: "more historical evidence for the existence of the historical Jesus than for most others who figure in history." Actually there is scant to NO historical evidence for the existence of the historical Jesus outside the NT.
You can't use the same source, the NT or any other book to validate, the arguments within the same book.
By using this argument: "I submit that no one who has experienced the grace of God in their lives, who has known the peace of God through the forgiveness of their sins when they came to Christ in repentance have ended up atheists." you obviously have set yourself up as the judge of who are true Christians. So are you are "all seeing, all knowing. all powerful?" Isn't that a rather huge burden for a person to load upon themselves?
Would you want a list of books that I recommend you read?
One dmg, one thing you can give him credit for. He is honest about how he feels about anyone that doesn't believe as he does. He wrote a book proving how tolerant he is about other sects of Christianity that he doesn't believe are Christians.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 19, 2014 14:15:07 GMT -5
I am presently reading the life of Dietrich Bonhoeffer who paid the ultimate sacrifice just before the end of World War two for his stand against Hitler and the evils of Nazism. It was his living faith in Jesus Christ that drove Bonhoeffer to oppose this evil regime and to work tirelessly along with many others to hide the innocent who faced extermination. At age 39 he was executed because he espoused the values of the Christian faith. In Bonhoeffer's words, 'When God calls a man, He bids Him come and die.'Hitler and his regime were Christian, according to some of our TMB sages. Are you saying Hitler's people executed a fellow Christian? Yes -- if they were gay, Communist, gypsy, mentally retarded, twins, non-Caucasian, Jewish converts to Christianity. The ancestors of modern Christianity are on record as having roasted brazier style any Christian who disagreed with them. Hitler was just like most other Christians -- he thought most people who called themselves Christians were frauds and worthy of non-Christian treatment.
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