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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 4, 2014 12:43:01 GMT -5
I'm not surprised that it is believed that the UN had rockets stored. When I posted the UN document, it was called biased. So I think this conversation like many others has come to the end of the line. Those who support Israel in their attack on Gaza will always be in support of Israel, no matter what horrid things they do. I don't see it as taking sides. In fact as I said earlier, I am not anti semantic, I am not pro Hamas, I am for stopping the slaughter of innocent civilians. There has to be a better way to get the Gazans freed from Hamas control than bombing and killing the civilians that are caught between two armies. I would like to see someone do something other than protest and back it up with some action. The US is known for it's successful covert operations so why don't they go into Gaza and figure out a way to get rid of Hamas without dropping bombs on the people? I don't have a lot of respect for the UN, think they are pretty much useless when it comes to bringing peace to anywhere. But I would love to be proved wrong. Yes, I think it is the end of the line. I thought it had ended a while ago, but some more stuff came up. And you're right, people with a religious concern for Israel are going to have indigestion and high blood pressure every time their plan gets sidetracked. Ironically, there's nothing anti-Semitic to this fight -- Jews and Arabs are all Semitic. The UN does get criticized for not accomplishing anything, but people usually expect more from them. Their prime roles are humanitarian, and if they were involved militarily they'd never be able to operate on both sides of a conflict. And when they do get involved militarily it is not to advance one side of the war but to separate forces that are committing atrocities. NATO can more easily get into such a conflict, but by NATO rules, Israel would be the guilty party. Every time my brother goes to Israel to visit his Orthodox Jewish in laws my mother worries the whole time. They have tried to impress us with the notion that Gaza is some prosperous land of luxury shopping malls
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 4, 2014 12:47:53 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Aug 4, 2014 13:30:29 GMT -5
I'm not surprised that it is believed that the UN had rockets stored. When I posted the UN document, it was called biased. So I think this conversation like many others has come to the end of the line. Those who support Israel in their attack on Gaza will always be in support of Israel, no matter what horrid things they do. I don't see it as taking sides. In fact as I said earlier, I am not anti semantic, I am not pro Hamas, I am for stopping the slaughter of innocent civilians. There has to be a better way to get the Gazans freed from Hamas control than bombing and killing the civilians that are caught between two armies. I would like to see someone do something other than protest and back it up with some action. The US is known for it's successful covert operations so why don't they go into Gaza and figure out a way to get rid of Hamas without dropping bombs on the people? I don't have a lot of respect for the UN, think they are pretty much useless when it comes to bringing peace to anywhere. But I would love to be proved wrong. Yes, I think it is the end of the line. I thought it had ended a while ago, but some more stuff came up. And you're right, people with a religious concern for Israel are going to have indigestion and high blood pressure every time their plan gets sidetracked. Ironically, there's nothing anti-Semitic to this fight -- Jews and Arabs are all Semitic. The UN does get criticized for not accomplishing anything, but people usually expect more from them. Their prime roles are humanitarian, and if they were involved militarily they'd never be able to operate on both sides of a conflict. And when they do get involved militarily it is not to advance one side of the war but to separate forces that are committing atrocities. NATO can more easily get into such a conflict, but by NATO rules, Israel would be the guilty party. Every time my brother goes to Israel to visit his Orthodox Jewish in laws my mother worries the whole time. They have tried to impress us with the notion that Gaza is some prosperous land of luxury shopping malls Yes, the UN really doesn't take that role. I don't know much about NATO, but if Israel is breaking their rules, that says something about this conflict. In any case, I'm sure the common ground here is that even one life is to many. I agree.
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Post by snow on Aug 4, 2014 13:36:22 GMT -5
But that isn't what the West wants to hear. At least the Christian west. If they believed what was really going on they would have a hard time justifying their support of Israel. Too many reports from sources other than Fox News are telling a very different story from what Israel is saying. Probably both sides have some truth and some lies, but the bottom line is that real people are being killed, in real time.
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Post by fixit on Aug 4, 2014 14:41:44 GMT -5
Probably both sides have some truth and some lies, but the bottom line is that real people are being killed, in real time. Like you, I hate it that even one person is killed. Sadly, people die in Gaza whether Israel is involved or not. Just like people died in Hitler's Germany whether the US was involved or not. Many Germans had to die to free their country from the Nazi scourge. Perhaps the western press at the time (if it hadn't been censored) would have bleated about all the Germans that were being killed? Here's one courageous journalist reporting about a rocket launched into Israel from a hospital: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu-e5qWXx-k
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 4, 2014 16:26:25 GMT -5
Probably both sides have some truth and some lies, but the bottom line is that real people are being killed, in real time. Like you, I hate it that even one person is killed. Sadly, people die in Gaza whether Israel is involved or not. Just like people died in Hitler's Germany whether the US was involved or not. Many Germans had to die to free their country from the Nazi scourge. Perhaps the western press at the time (if it hadn't been censored) would have bleated about all the Germans that were being killed? Here's one courageous journalist reporting about a rocket launched into Israel from a hospital: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu-e5qWXx-kThe difference between Hitler and Hamas is that Hitler called for the extermination of his own citizens. Hamas is calling for the extermination of its sworn enemies.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 4, 2014 16:31:30 GMT -5
Yes, I think it is the end of the line. I thought it had ended a while ago, but some more stuff came up. And you're right, people with a religious concern for Israel are going to have indigestion and high blood pressure every time their plan gets sidetracked. Ironically, there's nothing anti-Semitic to this fight -- Jews and Arabs are all Semitic. The UN does get criticized for not accomplishing anything, but people usually expect more from them. Their prime roles are humanitarian, and if they were involved militarily they'd never be able to operate on both sides of a conflict. And when they do get involved militarily it is not to advance one side of the war but to separate forces that are committing atrocities. NATO can more easily get into such a conflict, but by NATO rules, Israel would be the guilty party. Every time my brother goes to Israel to visit his Orthodox Jewish in laws my mother worries the whole time. They have tried to impress us with the notion that Gaza is some prosperous land of luxury shopping malls Yes, the UN really doesn't take that role. I don't know much about NATO, but if Israel is breaking their rules, that says something about this conflict. In any case, I'm sure the common ground here is that even one life is to many. I agree. Israel is not part of NATO, but they've asked more than once to become a member and NATO isn't interested. It would be like selling a life insurance policy to bungee diver. NATO member nations are bound to go to war in support of any other member nation that is invaded from outside. Unfortunately Israel is the invader in this case, and wouldn't get their support even if they were a member.
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Post by fixit on Aug 4, 2014 16:54:48 GMT -5
Yes, the UN really doesn't take that role. I don't know much about NATO, but if Israel is breaking their rules, that says something about this conflict. In any case, I'm sure the common ground here is that even one life is to many. I agree. Israel is not part of NATO, but they've asked more than once to become a member and NATO isn't interested. It would be like selling a life insurance policy to bungee diver. NATO member nations are bound to go to war in support of any other member nation that is invaded from outside. Unfortunately Israel is the invader in this case, and wouldn't get their support even if they were a member. A complicating factor is that a NATO member (Turkey) is one of the three main state sponsors of Hamas. The others are Iran and Qatar (the home of Al Jazeera). www.clarionproject.org/analysis/turkish-pm-erdogan-top-backer-hamasI wonder when Islamists will wake up and realize that Allah is backing Israel. How else can you explain 3,000 Iranian-supplied rockets failing to inflict severe casualties? Here's what the Jews are up against: www.clarionproject.org/videos/muslim-brotherhood-head-kuwait-calls-muslims-erase-all-jews#
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 4, 2014 18:11:36 GMT -5
Israel is not part of NATO, but they've asked more than once to become a member and NATO isn't interested. It would be like selling a life insurance policy to bungee diver. NATO member nations are bound to go to war in support of any other member nation that is invaded from outside. Unfortunately Israel is the invader in this case, and wouldn't get their support even if they were a member. A complicating factor is that a NATO member (Turkey) is one of the three main state sponsors of Hamas. The others are Iran and Qatar (the home of Al Jazeera). www.clarionproject.org/analysis/turkish-pm-erdogan-top-backer-hamasI wonder when Islamists will wake up and realize that Allah is backing Israel. How else can you explain 3,000 Iranian-supplied rockets failing to inflict severe casualties? Here's what the Jews are up against: www.clarionproject.org/videos/muslim-brotherhood-head-kuwait-calls-muslims-erase-all-jews#You don't have any question about Israel's ability to deal with their situation, do you? Turkey, as a NATO member, is free to intervene in any non-NATO country without NATO's permission. The USA does it all the time. Israel's problem with NATO is not that NATO would not help Israel if it were invaded. Israel's problem with NATO is that NATO never assists other member nations when they attack a non-member nation. Israel is normally the one who invades. But Israel doesn't need NATO anyway. They are thriving economically, have all the atomic bombs they need, and US welfare and arms keep pouring in.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 18:14:00 GMT -5
Like you, I hate it that even one person is killed. Sadly, people die in Gaza whether Israel is involved or not. Just like people died in Hitler's Germany whether the US was involved or not. Many Germans had to die to free their country from the Nazi scourge. Perhaps the western press at the time (if it hadn't been censored) would have bleated about all the Germans that were being killed? Here's one courageous journalist reporting about a rocket launched into Israel from a hospital: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu-e5qWXx-kThe difference between Hitler and Hamas is that Hitler called for the extermination of his own citizens. Hamas is calling for the extermination of its sworn enemies. thats not much a difference since they both lead to the same conclusion "the extermination of the jews"...
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Post by fixit on Aug 4, 2014 19:44:50 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Aug 4, 2014 20:05:11 GMT -5
Yes, the UN really doesn't take that role. I don't know much about NATO, but if Israel is breaking their rules, that says something about this conflict. In any case, I'm sure the common ground here is that even one life is to many. I agree. Israel is not part of NATO, but they've asked more than once to become a member and NATO isn't interested. It would be like selling a life insurance policy to bungee diver. NATO member nations are bound to go to war in support of any other member nation that is invaded from outside. Unfortunately Israel is the invader in this case, and wouldn't get their support even if they were a member. I see. Yes, Israel is usually the invader. Interesting NATO isn't interested. Thanks for that info Bob.
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Post by fixit on Aug 4, 2014 20:16:11 GMT -5
Israel is not part of NATO, but they've asked more than once to become a member and NATO isn't interested. It would be like selling a life insurance policy to bungee diver. NATO member nations are bound to go to war in support of any other member nation that is invaded from outside. Unfortunately Israel is the invader in this case, and wouldn't get their support even if they were a member. I see. Yes, Israel is usually the invader. Interesting NATO isn't interested. Thanks for that info Bob. If 3,000 rockets landed on NATO territory it would qualify as an attack. As would terrorists emerging from tunnels to attack NATO territory. Another 6,000 rockets stored in UN schools, house basements, mosques, etc would give any NATO country the jitters.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 4, 2014 21:06:54 GMT -5
The difference between Hitler and Hamas is that Hitler called for the extermination of his own citizens. Hamas is calling for the extermination of its sworn enemies. thats not much a difference since they both lead to the same conclusion "the extermination of the jews"... Sounds like the Christians have changed their alliances.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 4, 2014 21:10:08 GMT -5
I see. Yes, Israel is usually the invader. Interesting NATO isn't interested. Thanks for that info Bob. If 3,000 rockets landed on NATO territory it would qualify as an attack. As would terrorists emerging from tunnels to attack NATO territory. Another 6,000 rockets stored in UN schools, house basements, mosques, etc would give any NATO country the jitters. Of course. None of them have an Iron Dome like Israel.
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Post by fixit on Aug 4, 2014 21:58:13 GMT -5
Out of 57 Islamic Conference countries only ten recognize Israel and only Turkey has had success with democracy.
Israel needs an iron dome in such a rough neighborhood.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 23:28:51 GMT -5
If 3,000 rockets landed on NATO territory it would qualify as an attack. As would terrorists emerging from tunnels to attack NATO territory. Another 6,000 rockets stored in UN schools, house basements, mosques, etc would give any NATO country the jitters. Of course. None of them have an Iron Dome like Israel. regardles of whether Israel had iron dome or not hamas still had 6,000 rockets stored in UN schools, house basements, mosques, etc to fire at Israel and they still fired 3,000 rockets at Israel they were not for defense but for destruction of another people
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 5, 2014 0:35:33 GMT -5
Of course. None of them have an Iron Dome like Israel. regardles of whether Israel had iron dome or not hamas still had 6,000 rockets stored in UN schools, house basements, mosques, etc to fire at Israel and they still fired 3,000 rockets at Israel they were not for defense but for destruction of another people I know. That's what I said.
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Post by snow on Aug 5, 2014 10:37:31 GMT -5
Of course. None of them have an Iron Dome like Israel. regardles of whether Israel had iron dome or not hamas still had 6,000 rockets stored in UN schools, house basements, mosques, etc to fire at Israel and they still fired 3,000 rockets at Israel they were not for defense but for destruction of another people What they have is a drop in the bucket compared to what Israel has and uses and is supplied with by the States.
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Post by fixit on Aug 5, 2014 15:12:14 GMT -5
regardles of whether Israel had iron dome or not hamas still had 6,000 rockets stored in UN schools, house basements, mosques, etc to fire at Israel and they still fired 3,000 rockets at Israel they were not for defense but for destruction of another people What they have is a drop in the bucket compared to what Israel has and uses and is supplied with by the States. The 3300 Gaza rockets fired at Israeli civilians resulted in a couple thousand people getting killed. Around 3,000 were destroyed by the IDF. If the international community is serious about avoiding further bloodshed it will work to further demilitarize Gaza and keep it that way.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 5, 2014 17:13:34 GMT -5
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 5, 2014 17:16:11 GMT -5
What they have is a drop in the bucket compared to what Israel has and uses and is supplied with by the States. The 3300 Gaza rockets fired at Israeli civilians resulted in a couple thousand people getting killed. Around 3,000 were destroyed by the IDF. If the international community is serious about avoiding further bloodshed it will work to further demilitarize Gaza and keep it that way. Yesterday's statistics on Israeli deaths was 60, not a couple of thousands.
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Post by fred on Aug 5, 2014 17:41:55 GMT -5
The 3300 Gaza rockets fired at Israeli civilians resulted in a couple thousand people getting killed. Around 3,000 were destroyed by the IDF. If the international community is serious about avoiding further bloodshed it will work to further demilitarize Gaza and keep it that way. Yesterday's statistics on Israeli deaths was 60, not a couple of thousands. ............and the majority of them were soldiers actively involved.
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Post by Mary on Aug 5, 2014 18:18:51 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Aug 5, 2014 18:19:22 GMT -5
The 3300 Gaza rockets fired at Israeli civilians resulted in a couple thousand people getting killed. Around 3,000 were destroyed by the IDF. If the international community is serious about avoiding further bloodshed it will work to further demilitarize Gaza and keep it that way. Yesterday's statistics on Israeli deaths was 60, not a couple of thousands. You've misunderstood and I admit I wasn't very clear. Last count that I saw (it may have changed since) was at least 3,300 rockets fired into Israel. This resulted in close to 2,000 deaths (most of them in Gaza). About 3,000 rockets were destroyed in Gaza by Israeli preventative action. The IDF also protected Israeli civilians from 3,300 rocket attacks and eliminated 32 terror tunnels. I'm inclined to agree with the Israeli ambassador to the USA, that the IDF deserves a Nobel Peace prize for how much they achieved with so little loss of civilian life. I hate it that even one life was lost, but it was a huge challenge to disarm heavily populated urban areas where the enemy equates civilian casualties with victory.
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Post by fixit on Aug 5, 2014 18:27:13 GMT -5
Many more lives have been lost in Iraq and Syria than in Gaza over the last few weeks, but its more popular to bash Israel.
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Post by snow on Aug 5, 2014 18:41:52 GMT -5
Yesterday's statistics on Israeli deaths was 60, not a couple of thousands. You've misunderstood and I admit I wasn't very clear. Last count that I saw (it may have changed since) was at least 3,300 rockets fired into Israel. This resulted in close to 2,000 deaths (most of them in Gaza). About 3,000 rockets were destroyed in Gaza by Israeli preventative action. The IDF also protected Israeli civilians from 3,300 rocket attacks and eliminated 32 terror tunnels. I'm inclined to agree with the Israeli ambassador to the USA, that the IDF deserves a Nobel Peace prize for how much they achieved with so little loss of civilian life. I hate it that even one life was lost, but it was a huge challenge to disarm heavily populated urban areas where the enemy equates civilian casualties with victory. If they are so concerned about civilian life then why do they use the type of bombs they use? What they use is not much different from the barrel bomb you were talking about earlier. Also the white phosphorus bombs are pretty ugly too, and they use them.
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Post by snow on Aug 5, 2014 18:45:39 GMT -5
Many more lives have been lost in Iraq and Syria than in Gaza over the last few weeks, but its more popular to bash Israel. That's an interesting statement. What is your interest in Israel anyway? They are just another country at war. Why should you care if Israel is considered to be committing war crimes? Any more than you care that other countries are being condemned for them too. No one is bashing Israel. No one is against Israel. They are against what is happening to the people of Gaza. Israel is not squeaky clean in this so why are they being defended?
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