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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 18:55:33 GMT -5
Many more lives have been lost in Iraq and Syria than in Gaza over the last few weeks, but its more popular to bash Israel. That's an interesting statement. What is your interest in Israel anyway? They are just another country at war. Why should you care if Israel is considered to be committing war crimes? Any more than you care that other countries are being condemned for them too. No one is bashing Israel. No one is against Israel. They are against what is happening to the people of Gaza. Israel is not squeaky clean in this so why are they being defended? with the holocaust still hanging over thier heads like a sword israel will do anything to defend itself and the geneva convention can go take a long walk off a short pier...
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 5, 2014 19:16:24 GMT -5
Yesterday's statistics on Israeli deaths was 60, not a couple of thousands. ............and the majority of them were soldiers actively involved. So where did you get the idea that there were thousands of Israeli citizens killed? It can't be thousands as you mentioned.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 5, 2014 19:29:02 GMT -5
Yesterday's statistics on Israeli deaths was 60, not a couple of thousands. You've misunderstood and I admit I wasn't very clear. Last count that I saw (it may have changed since) was at least 3,300 rockets fired into Israel. This resulted in close to 2,000 deaths (most of them in Gaza). How do rockets fired into Israel kill people in Gaza? Don't say it justified Israel's killing the nearly 2000 in Gaza -- you don't believe in killing civilians. And if the Israelis are sophisticated enough to keep rockets from doing damage, then they're darn sure sophisticated enough not to bomb schools in order to get someone passing the school on a motorcycle. Good work, small deal. Who is Israel afraid of -- they hasn't even thought of using their atomic bombs yet. And Hitler should have received the Nobel Prize for medicine because he sponsored important scientific discoveries. ?? So how many lives would it take to disarm a nation the size of maybe Delaware that has what - 8 atomic bombs. Hamas is like a motor cycle taking on a freight train, and you are feeling sorry for the train. Sheeeshhh.
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Post by fixit on Aug 5, 2014 19:49:04 GMT -5
............and the majority of them were soldiers actively involved. So where did you get the idea that there were thousands of Israeli citizens killed? It can't be thousands as you mentioned. No one thinks there were thousands of Israelis killed.
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Post by snow on Aug 5, 2014 19:50:11 GMT -5
That's an interesting statement. What is your interest in Israel anyway? They are just another country at war. Why should you care if Israel is considered to be committing war crimes? Any more than you care that other countries are being condemned for them too. No one is bashing Israel. No one is against Israel. They are against what is happening to the people of Gaza. Israel is not squeaky clean in this so why are they being defended? with the holocaust still hanging over thier heads like a sword israel will do anything to defend itself and the geneva convention can go take a long walk off a short pier... Do you know how many genocides have happened, and in recent time? Do you believe that Israel has the right to commit atrocities because atrocities were done to them? Why are they more special then the other groups that have been the victim of genocides? I don't see anyone standing up for their right to turn around and commit atrocities. Israel has always been in the middle of many powerful countries, now they are powerful because they are supported by the states and getting arms from them. Does this give them the right to do wrong? Two wrongs do not make a right.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 5, 2014 21:10:30 GMT -5
So where did you get the idea that there were thousands of Israeli citizens killed? It can't be thousands as you mentioned. No one thinks there were thousands of Israelis killed. I know no one thinks there were thousands killed by Hamas rockets. I was responding to your statement: "The 3300 Gaza rockets fired at Israeli civilians resulted in a couple thousand people getting killed." I don't think you meant to say that.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 5, 2014 21:17:54 GMT -5
Many more lives have been lost in Iraq and Syria than in Gaza over the last few weeks, but its more popular to bash Israel. This thread is about Israel and Hamas, not Syria and Iraq. But in truth, the Israel conflict is only more popular than the others among Jews and Christians; and people who don't learn anything the major media can't profit from. Syria and Iraq are far more serious situations, but as far as many westerners are concerned it's a war among dumb primitive Muslims. Unfortunately, it concerns Westerners possibly more than the Israel-Hamas situation.
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Post by fixit on Aug 5, 2014 22:40:35 GMT -5
No one thinks there were thousands of Israelis killed. I know no one thinks there were thousands killed by Hamas rockets. I was responding to your statement: "The 3300 Gaza rockets fired at Israeli civilians resulted in a couple thousand people getting killed." I don't think you meant to say that. It wasn't worded well. But its true - the only possible result of firing 3,300 rockets at Israeli citizens is lots of dead and injured people. The dead and injured are always mostly Palestinians of course.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 0:46:40 GMT -5
regardles of whether Israel had iron dome or not hamas still had 6,000 rockets stored in UN schools, house basements, mosques, etc to fire at Israel and they still fired 3,000 rockets at Israel they were not for defense but for destruction of another people What they have is a drop in the bucket compared to what Israel has and uses and is supplied with by the States. so
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Post by fixit on Aug 6, 2014 1:58:52 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2014 9:43:58 GMT -5
What they have is a drop in the bucket compared to what Israel has and uses and is supplied with by the States. so So?
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 6, 2014 14:55:55 GMT -5
I know no one thinks there were thousands killed by Hamas rockets. I was responding to your statement: "The 3300 Gaza rockets fired at Israeli civilians resulted in a couple thousand people getting killed." I don't think you meant to say that. It wasn't worded well. But its true - the only possible result of firing 3,300 rockets at Israeli citizens is lots of dead and injured people. No, it just happens not to be true. If Hamas shoots 3,300 rockets at Israeli citizens the result is NOT lots of dead and injured people -- it turns out to be lots of dead and dysfunctional Hamas rockets, because Israel has an "iron dome" that prevents them from killing people. First you said they were shooting at Israeli citizens, and then saying the dead and injured are mostly Palestinians. Did you mean to say that? Or maybe Hamas rockets just boomerang back onto Gaza in order to kill that many Palestinians. The Lord does work in mysterious ways. Really -- don't you think Hamas rockets were aimed at Israel, and Israeli rockets were the ones aimed at Palestinians in Gaza. 90% of Israelis are Jews. But maybe Hamas has Palestinian-seeking rockets that can evade the Iron Dome. Very advanced technology, I say.
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Post by fixit on Aug 6, 2014 15:00:45 GMT -5
Bob, for every action there is a reaction.
When rockets are fired at Israeli civilians, naturally the source of the rockets will be targeted by the IDF.
It's not rocket science!
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 6, 2014 16:13:21 GMT -5
Bob, for every action there is a reaction. When rockets are fired at Israeli civilians, naturally the source of the rockets will be targeted by the IDF. It's not rocket science! I know. And where do the Israelis instruct the IDF to forward them to?
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Post by fixit on Aug 6, 2014 16:52:47 GMT -5
Bob, for every action there is a reaction. When rockets are fired at Israeli civilians, naturally the source of the rockets will be targeted by the IDF. It's not rocket science! I know. And where do the Israelis instruct the IDF to forward them to? I'm not a military expert, but obviously the IDF is tasked with stopping the rockets. They did very well to deal with a 9,000 rocket problem with less that 2,000 deaths. Thousands are dying in Iraq as we speak, but no one will be out in the streets protesting about that. time.com/3085270/iraq-yazidi-mount-sinjar-islamic-state-refugees/
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2014 17:00:11 GMT -5
I know. And where do the Israelis instruct the IDF to forward them to? I'm not a military expert, but obviously the IDF is tasked with stopping the rockets. They did very well to deal with a 9,000 rocket problem with less that 2,000 deaths. Thousands are dying in Iraq as we speak, but no one will be out in the streets protesting about that. time.com/3085270/iraq-yazidi-mount-sinjar-islamic-state-refugees/The 2000 deaths were caused by Hamas rockets, not Israeli rockets? How does that work? also, the Western Christian world doesn't seem to care one Iota about Muslims killing Muslims do they. But if Israel loses 1 soldier, it's breaking news. Wonder why that is? Look no further than the Christian religion and their need to have the Jews in their homeland. You can bet the part of the world that impacts Muslims killing Muslims is paying attention. That just wouldn't be something you would hear in Christendom.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 6, 2014 17:03:13 GMT -5
I know. And where do the Israelis instruct the IDF to forward them to? I'm not a military expert, but obviously the IDF is tasked with stopping the rockets. They did very well to deal with a 9,000 rocket problem with less that 2,000 deaths. Thousands are dying in Iraq as we speak, but no one will be out in the streets protesting about that. time.com/3085270/iraq-yazidi-mount-sinjar-islamic-state-refugees/Well that one's embarrassing to the West because it was largely the US that opened the whole Iraq fiasco. But I really wanted to know -- do you think the Hamas bombs are deflected back on Gaza?
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Post by fixit on Aug 6, 2014 17:06:53 GMT -5
I'm not a military expert, but obviously the IDF is tasked with stopping the rockets. They did very well to deal with a 9,000 rocket problem with less that 2,000 deaths. Thousands are dying in Iraq as we speak, but no one will be out in the streets protesting about that. time.com/3085270/iraq-yazidi-mount-sinjar-islamic-state-refugees/The 2000 deaths were caused by Hamas rockets, not Israeli rockets? How does that work? When you embed rockets into a civilian population and fire them, its pretty obvious there will be people hurt when those being targeted fire back. Hizballah has an estimated 60,000 rockets, so more people will get hurt when they decide to use them.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 6, 2014 18:08:30 GMT -5
The 2000 deaths were caused by Hamas rockets, not Israeli rockets? How does that work? When you embed rockets into a civilian population and fire them, its pretty obvious there will be people hurt when those being targeted fire back. Exactly. And this is the problem. Israel didn't only fire back, they invaded, needlessly killed more innocents than Hamas, committed war crimes, and scoffs at everyone who thinks there is anything wrong with anything they've done. So I will repeat, if Israel is so sophisticated that it can repel rockets aimed at Israel, surely they have the technology to avoid such things as blasting a school while trying to kill a man on a motorcycle in the street. I have a nephew who could do it very easily from a distance without even damaging the motorcycle. Hezbollah is not in Gaza, and they are not responsible for anything Hamas does. They have sympathies for each other on some levels, but religiously they are not allies. Interestingly, when Israel was bombing the dickens out of Hezbollah and civilians in Lebanon a few years ago, the leader of Hezbollah was compensating any residents who lost their homes to Israeli bombing with what: $1,000,00 US cash. The war from both sides was operating with American money.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 18:36:23 GMT -5
When you embed rockets into a civilian population and fire them, its pretty obvious there will be people hurt when those being targeted fire back. Exactly. And this is the problem. Israel didn't only fire back, they invaded, needlessly killed more innocents than Hamas, committed war crimes, and scoffs at everyone who thinks there is anything wrong with anything they've done. So I will repeat, if Israel is so sophisticated that it can repel rockets aimed at Israel, surely they have the technology to avoid such things as blasting a school while trying to kill a man on a motorcycle in the street. I have a nephew who could do it very easily from a distance without even damaging the motorcycle. Hezbollah is not in Gaza, and they are not responsible for anything Hamas does. They have sympathies for each other on some levels, but religiously they are not allies. Interestingly, when Israel was bombing the dickens out of Hezbollah and civilians in Lebanon a few years ago, the leader of Hezbollah was compensating any residents who lost their homes to Israeli bombing with what: $1,000,00 US cash. The war from both sides was operating with American money. i don't know bob in war sophisticated stuff can go haywire all the time....
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Post by xna on Aug 6, 2014 18:36:55 GMT -5
I hear on the news the problem is; Hamas is hiding rockets among the civilian population of Gaza. I don't follow this too close, but I wasn't aware Gaza had a military section, and a separate civilian section. To me the fight is between an army and a people on a reservation without an army. The whole of Gaza will be pissed off for generations to come, and will pick any tool they can to fight back.
I also hear on the news that the peace talks will focused on the cause of the recent uprising. I bet religion won't be on the root cause list.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 18:44:10 GMT -5
I hear on the news the problem is; Hamas is hiding rockets among the civilian population of Gaza. I don't follow this too close, but I wasn't aware Gaza had a military section, and a separate civilian section. To me the fight is between an army and a people on a reservation without an army. The whole of Gaza will be pissed off for generations to come, and will pick any tool they can to fight back. I also hear on the news that the peace talks will focused on the cause of the recent uprising. I bet religion won't be on the root cause list. its only the terrorist wing of the people that are armed which might be a high of 2,000 out of 1.5 million gazans...
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Post by fixit on Aug 6, 2014 18:56:41 GMT -5
Here's the reality:
Israel will do what it takes to remain a Jewish-majority state and protect its civilian population.
When the Palestinians accept that, a better future will be available to them.
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Post by fixit on Aug 6, 2014 20:16:57 GMT -5
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 6, 2014 20:31:32 GMT -5
Exactly. And this is the problem. Israel didn't only fire back, they invaded, needlessly killed more innocents than Hamas, committed war crimes, and scoffs at everyone who thinks there is anything wrong with anything they've done. So I will repeat, if Israel is so sophisticated that it can repel rockets aimed at Israel, surely they have the technology to avoid such things as blasting a school while trying to kill a man on a motorcycle in the street. I have a nephew who could do it very easily from a distance without even damaging the motorcycle. Hezbollah is not in Gaza, and they are not responsible for anything Hamas does. They have sympathies for each other on some levels, but religiously they are not allies. Interestingly, when Israel was bombing the dickens out of Hezbollah and civilians in Lebanon a few years ago, the leader of Hezbollah was compensating any residents who lost their homes to Israeli bombing with what: $1,000,00 US cash. The war from both sides was operating with American money. i don't know bob in war sophisticated stuff can go haywire all the time.... Do you suppose maybe the Israelis are too sophisticated to hire a few snipers to pick the right people off? Israel is supposed to have a reputation for very precise and clean covert operations. Of course the Israelis (Jews in particular) have a couple of problems when trying to deal with other nations. They make no pretense at being pacifistic -- "If you hurt us we will kill you." A quote from a Reformed rabbi. The other is that dead people are just dead people -- they don't have the mystique of keeping anyone alive to save anyone's soul. That's ironic, because fundamentalist Christians think of Israel as being on their own (the Christians') moral high ground.
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2014 21:23:02 GMT -5
Here's the reality: Israel will do what it takes to remain a Jewish-majority state and protect its civilian population. When the Palestinians accept that, a better future will be available to them. Yes, that's likely the reality, but it doesn't make it right.
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Post by déjà vu on Aug 13, 2014 16:53:52 GMT -5
I just finished reading " ONE MINUTE AFTER YOU DIE" ( A preview of Your final destination ) I highly recommend this booklet. 144 pages by Erwin W. Lutzer
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Post by snow on Aug 18, 2014 10:10:33 GMT -5
Thought this was a good read by Desmond Tutu. I apologize for the length, but I couldn't get a link without subscribing. Received this in an email.
An Important message from Desmond Tuto: Anita MacLean. My plea to the people of Israel: Liberate yourselves by liberating Palestine Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu, in an exclusive article for Haaretz, calls for a global boycott of Israel and urges Israelis and Palestinians to look beyond their leaders for a sustainable solution to the crisis in the Holy Land. By Desmond Tutu | Aug. 14, 2014 | 9:56 PM | 5 The past weeks have witnessed unprecedented action by members of civil society across the world against the injustice of Israel’s disproportionately brutal response to the firing of missiles from Palestine. If you add together all the people who gathered over the past weekend to demand justice in Israel and Palestine – in Cape Town, Washington, D.C., New York, New Delhi, London, Dublin and Sydney, and all the other cities – this was arguably the largest active outcry by citizens around a single cause ever in the history of the world. A quarter of a century ago, I participated in some well-attended demonstrations against apartheid. I never imagined we’d see demonstrations of that size again, but last Saturday’s turnout in Cape Town was as big if not bigger. Participants included young and old, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, blacks, whites, reds and greens ... as one would expect from a vibrant, tolerant, multicultural nation. I asked the crowd to chant with me: “We are opposed to the injustice of the illegal occupation of Palestine. We are opposed to the indiscriminate killing in Gaza. We are opposed to the indignity meted out to Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks. We are opposed to violence perpetrated by all parties. But we are not opposed to Jews.” Earlier in the week, I called for the suspension of Israel from the International Union of Architects, which was meeting in South Africa. I appealed to Israeli sisters and brothers present at the conference to actively disassociate themselves and their profession from the design and construction of infrastructure related to perpetuating injustice, including the separation barrier, the security terminals and checkpoints, and the settlements built on occupied Palestinian land. “I implore you to take this message home: Please turn the tide against violence and hatred by joining the nonviolent movement for justice for all people of the region,” I said. Over the past few weeks, more than 1.6 million people across the world have signed onto this movement by joining an Avaaz campaign calling on corporations profiting from the Israeli occupation and/or implicated in the abuse and repression of Palestinians to pull out. The campaign specifically targets Dutch pension fund ABP; Barclays Bank; security systems supplier G4S; French transport company Veolia; computer company Hewlett-Packard; and bulldozer supplier Caterpillar. Last month, 17 EU governments urged their citizens to avoid doing business in or investing in illegal Israeli settlements. Social Banners - Twitter We have also recently witnessed the withdrawal by Dutch pension fund PGGM of tens of millions of euros from Israeli banks; the divestment from G4S by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation; and the U.S. Presbyterian Church divested an estimated $21 million from HP, Motorola Solutions and Caterpillar. It is a movement that is gathering pace. Violence begets violence and hatred, that only begets more violence and hatred. We South Africans know about violence and hatred. We understand the pain of being the polecat of the world; when it seems nobody understands or is even willing to listen to our perspective. It is where we come from. We also know the benefits that dialogue between our leaders eventually brought us; when organizations labeled “terrorist” were unbanned and their leaders, including Nelson Mandela, were released from imprisonment, banishment and exile. We know that when our leaders began to speak to each other, the rationale for the violence that had wracked our society dissipated and disappeared. Acts of terrorism perpetrated after the talks began – such as attacks on a church and a pub – were almost universally condemned, and the party held responsible snubbed at the ballot box. The exhilaration that followed our voting together for the first time was not the preserve of black South Africans alone. The real triumph of our peaceful settlement was that all felt included. And later, when we unveiled a constitution so tolerant, compassionate and inclusive that it would make God proud, we all felt liberated. Of course, it helped that we had a cadre of extraordinary leaders. But what ultimately forced these leaders together around the negotiating table was the cocktail of persuasive, nonviolent tools that had been developed to isolate South Africa, economically, academically, culturally and psychologically. At a certain point – the tipping point – the then-government realized that the cost of attempting to preserve apartheid outweighed the benefits. The withdrawal of trade with South Africa by multinational corporations with a conscience in the 1980s was ultimately one of the key levers that brought the apartheid state – bloodlessly – to its knees. Those corporations understood that by contributing to South Africa’s economy, they were contributing to the retention of an unjust status quo. Those who continue to do business with Israel, who contribute to a sense of “normalcy” in Israeli society, are doing the people of Israel and Palestine a disservice. They are contributing to the perpetuation of a profoundly unjust status quo. Those who contribute to Israel’s temporary isolation are saying that Israelis and Palestinians are equally entitled to dignity and peace. Ultimately, events in Gaza over the past month or so are going to test who believes in the worth of human beings. It is becoming more and more clear that politicians and diplomats are failing to come up with answers, and that responsibility for brokering a sustainable solution to the crisis in the Holy Land rests with civil society and the people of Israel and Palestine themselves. Besides the recent devastation of Gaza, decent human beings everywhere – including many in Israel – are profoundly disturbed by the daily violations of human dignity and freedom of movement Palestinians are subjected to at checkpoints and roadblocks. And Israel’s policies of illegal occupation and the construction of buffer-zone settlements on occupied land compound the difficulty of achieving an agreementsettlement in the future that is acceptable for all. The State of Israel is behaving as if there is no tomorrow. Its people will not live the peaceful and secure lives they crave – and are entitled to – as long as their leaders perpetuate conditions that sustain the conflict. I have condemned those in Palestine responsible for firing missiles and rockets at Israel. They are fanning the flames of hatred. I am opposed to all manifestations of violence. But we must be very clear that the people of Palestine have every right to struggle for their dignity and freedom. It is a struggle that has the support of many around the world. No human-made problems are intractable when humans put their heads together with the earnest desire to overcome them. No peace is impossible when people are determined to achieve it. Peace requires the people of Israel and Palestine to recognize the human being in themselves and each other; to understand their interdependence. Missiles, bombs and crude invective are not part of the solution. There is no military solution. The solution is more likely to come from that nonviolent toolbox we developed in South Africa in the 1980s, to persuade the government of the necessity of altering its policies. The reason these tools – boycott, sanctions and divestment – ultimately proved effective was because they had a critical mass of support, both inside and outside the country. The kind of support we have witnessed across the world in recent weeks, in respect of Palestine. My plea to the people of Israel is to see beyond the moment, to see beyond the anger at feeling perpetually under siege, to see a world in which Israel and Palestine can coexist – a world in which mutual dignity and respect reign. It requires a mind-set shift. A mind-set shift that recognizes that attempting to perpetuate the current status quo is to damn future generations to violence and insecurity. A mind-set shift that stops regarding legitimate criticism of a state’s policies as an attack on Judaism. A mind-set shift that begins at home and ripples out across communities and nations and regions – to the Diaspora scattered across the world we share. The only world we share. People united in pursuit of a righteous cause are unstoppable. God does not interfere in the affairs of people, hoping we will grow and learn through resolving our difficulties and differences ourselves. But God is not asleep. The Jewish scriptures tell us that God is biased on the side of the weak, the dispossessed, the widow, the orphan, the alien who set slaves free on an exodus to a Promised Land. It was the prophet Amos who said we should let righteousness flow like a river. Goodness prevails in the end. The pursuit of freedom for the people of Palestine from humiliation and persecution by the policies of Israel is a righteous cause. It is a cause that the people of Israel should support. Nelson Mandela famously said that South Africans would not feel free until Palestinians were free. He might have added that the liberation of Palestine will liberate Israel, too.
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