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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 3:26:03 GMT -5
Fixit, let me get this clear .... you are using the Jewish Press as your source while in the same post you are claiming that Amnesty International sources are unreliable due to their bias? Matt10
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Post by fixit on Jul 26, 2014 4:35:37 GMT -5
Fixit, let me get this clear .... you are using the Jewish Press as your source while in the same post you are claiming that Amnesty International sources are unreliable due to their bias? Matt10 Amnesty bats for Hamas, and the Jewish Press bats for Israel. We wouldn't want an unbalanced discussion would we?
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Post by fixit on Jul 26, 2014 4:49:00 GMT -5
Really, tell me more, say cover the period between 1900 and 1947. You could start with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem:
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Post by fixit on Jul 26, 2014 5:24:42 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Jul 26, 2014 17:41:34 GMT -5
Thought this documentary was very interesting in some of the points made. Mostly about Israel being Zionist and that it isn't supported by many Jews. Another comment towards the end is that the States cannot stop supporting Israel and Saudi Arabia in the Middle East because after the Chinese, Saudi is taking on a huge amount of the US debt. An interesting situation politically and that doesn't even start to address the religious side of it and the evangelicalist community that believes Israel must be a state before Christ can return. I got one of those sayings or quote type things this morning from someone that said 'the US 911 is the Palestinians 24/7'. Pretty much.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 26, 2014 20:35:25 GMT -5
So it wasn't the Israeli government - it was the police? Looking forward to a link. The police do as the government instructs -- in civilized countries, that is. It should be easy to google.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 26, 2014 20:38:36 GMT -5
Go back pre 1948, tell me how much bother there was in the Middle East between Jew and Muslim? Lots. You must have taken world history in what school? Historically Muslims have treated Jews far better than Christians have treated Jews. This is what happens when Christians intervene to make things better. And of course, World History begins about 1950 or later.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 26, 2014 20:41:10 GMT -5
Thanks Bob, that, whatever it was from the chap Blair, via Nathan, has happened a number of times in history already. My view is that Israel will never (other than the current political state) be more than than a spiritual state and Jerusalum will never be more than a spiritual city. By this I mean that in my view I look beyond the temporal and see all this as something personal. Battles to be fought and won within myself. To me, Jew (Israel) equals human nature and all its baseness. I need to rise above that and accept Jesus as my Saviour. Nothing to do whatsoever with some political state in todays world. Wow. You could probably start a new denomination with that. It would be interesting to know how Jews feel about such an idea.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 26, 2014 20:45:01 GMT -5
Very traditional Christian opinion, I must say.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 26, 2014 20:50:03 GMT -5
Amnesty International might not be up to speed on this. Besides, their bias makes their claims unreliable. Comparing the exposure of Amnesty International to that a right wing conservative sitting at home scanning right wing media -- I vote for Amnesty International.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 26, 2014 20:54:14 GMT -5
Really, tell me more, say cover the period between 1900 and 1947. You could start with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem: Before you go too far with the Nazi accusation, you should make yourself familiar with the relationship the British and Americans REALLY had with Hitler before they had appeased him too far. And the US didn't even join the war until it was attacked and had no choice. US high school history is not professional history, you know.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 26, 2014 20:57:09 GMT -5
Fixit, let me get this clear .... you are using the Jewish Press as your source while in the same post you are claiming that Amnesty International sources are unreliable due to their bias? Matt10 Amnesty bats for Hamas, and the Jewish Press bats for Israel. We wouldn't want an unbalanced discussion would we? Amnesty International bats for human rights. Not all Jewish press bats for Netanyahu.
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Post by snow on Jul 26, 2014 20:58:26 GMT -5
You could start with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem: Before you go too far with the Nazi accusation, you should make yourself familiar with the relationship the British and Americans REALLY had with Hitler before they had appeased him too far. And the US didn't even join the war until it was attacked and had no choice. US high school history is not professional history, you know. Some pretty high level Americans supported Hitler, Ford and Prescott Bush are two I can think of.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 26, 2014 21:04:00 GMT -5
Before you go too far with the Nazi accusation, you should make yourself familiar with the relationship the British and Americans REALLY had with Hitler before they had appeased him too far. And the US didn't even join the war until it was attacked and had no choice. US high school history is not professional history, you know. Some pretty high level Americans supported Hitler, Ford and Prescott Bush are two I can think of. And the US government educated the Nazis on human sterilization strategies in Virginia and other states. I know people in this country even today who deny most of the genocidal history of the Nazi Party.
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Post by snow on Jul 26, 2014 21:30:15 GMT -5
Some pretty high level Americans supported Hitler, Ford and Prescott Bush are two I can think of. And the US government educated the Nazis on human sterilization strategies in Virginia and other states. I know people in this country even today who deny most of the genocidal history of the Nazi Party. Well, I guess there will always be some that do I guess. It was a horrific time for the Jewish people and I don't blame them for wanting a homeland. It's what they are doing now that bothers me. You'd think with all they went through they would have more compassion.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 26, 2014 21:48:10 GMT -5
And the US government educated the Nazis on human sterilization strategies in Virginia and other states. I know people in this country even today who deny most of the genocidal history of the Nazi Party. Well, I guess there will always be some that do I guess. It was a horrific time for the Jewish people and I don't blame them for wanting a homeland. It's what they are doing now that bothers me. You'd think with all they went through they would have more compassion. There are other politicians in Israel who are more moderate that Netanyahu, and there's a lot of unrest among the population about his policy. But he's clearly an impediment to peace in the area because he will not stop building Jewish communities in the West Bank. That just means he has no intention of ever allowing Palestinians to have their own state. Israel had their opportunity to have a peaceful Palestinian state when the PLO came to an agreement with them back then, but the Israeli government backed out of it. If it was Muslims they didn't like, they should have dealt with the PLO because they weren't Muslims. The only people left to negotiate with are the Muslims, who are desperate because they have no place else to go.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 26, 2014 21:49:01 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Jul 26, 2014 22:00:19 GMT -5
Well, I guess there will always be some that do I guess. It was a horrific time for the Jewish people and I don't blame them for wanting a homeland. It's what they are doing now that bothers me. You'd think with all they went through they would have more compassion. There are other politicians in Israel who are more moderate that Netanyahu, and there's a lot of unrest among the population about his policy. But he's clearly an impediment to peace in the area because he will not stop building Jewish communities in the West Bank. That just means he has no intention of ever allowing Palestinians to have their own state. Israel had their opportunity to have a peaceful Palestinian state when the PLO came to an agreement with them back then, but the Israeli government backed out of it. If it was Muslims they didn't like, they should have dealt with the PLO because they weren't Muslims. The only people left to negotiate with are the Muslims, who are desperate because they have no place else to go. Yes, and when you make people desperate, they will do desperate things. However, unless they get the backing of the rest of the surrounding nations, they have no hope of taking on Israel. Not when Israel is backed financially by the US and Saudi. When the US pulled out of the Gulf, they left all their unused weapons with Israel. I don't know if you have ever read Robert Fisk's 'The Great War for Civilization: The Conquest of the Middle East', but it was a very eye opening understanding of the big picture. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_War_for_Civilisation:_The_Conquest_of_the_Middle_East
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 22:21:44 GMT -5
Well, I guess there will always be some that do I guess. It was a horrific time for the Jewish people and I don't blame them for wanting a homeland. It's what they are doing now that bothers me. You'd think with all they went through they would have more compassion. There are other politicians in Israel who are more moderate that Netanyahu, and there's a lot of unrest among the population about his policy. But he's clearly an impediment to peace in the area because he will not stop building Jewish communities in the West Bank. That just means he has no intention of ever allowing Palestinians to have their own state. Israel had their opportunity to have a peaceful Palestinian state when the PLO came to an agreement with them back then, but the Israeli government backed out of it. If it was Muslims they didn't like, they should have dealt with the PLO because they weren't Muslims. The only people left to negotiate with are the Muslims, who are desperate because they have no place else to go. they could go to jordan along with their other brethern that are already there...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 22:23:01 GMT -5
And the US government educated the Nazis on human sterilization strategies in Virginia and other states. I know people in this country even today who deny most of the genocidal history of the Nazi Party. Well, I guess there will always be some that do I guess. It was a horrific time for the Jewish people and I don't blame them for wanting a homeland. It's what they are doing now that bothers me. You'd think with all they went through they would have more compassion. being soft got them killed the last time around...
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 26, 2014 22:32:33 GMT -5
There are other politicians in Israel who are more moderate that Netanyahu, and there's a lot of unrest among the population about his policy. But he's clearly an impediment to peace in the area because he will not stop building Jewish communities in the West Bank. That just means he has no intention of ever allowing Palestinians to have their own state. Israel had their opportunity to have a peaceful Palestinian state when the PLO came to an agreement with them back then, but the Israeli government backed out of it. If it was Muslims they didn't like, they should have dealt with the PLO because they weren't Muslims. The only people left to negotiate with are the Muslims, who are desperate because they have no place else to go. they could go to jordan along with their other brethern that are already there... The West Bank used to belong to Jordan, and Jordan divorced itself from the West Bank years ago. Egyptians just do not like Palestinians. And the Palestinian refugees from Israel to Lebanon have been in refugee camps there for two generations already -- the Lebanese "have no room for them".
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 26, 2014 22:35:56 GMT -5
Well, I guess there will always be some that do I guess. It was a horrific time for the Jewish people and I don't blame them for wanting a homeland. It's what they are doing now that bothers me. You'd think with all they went through they would have more compassion. being soft got them killed the last time around... Soft people don't survive millennia of diaspora as the Jews have. And Israel wasn't given to them on a silver spoon.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 22:36:10 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Jul 26, 2014 22:50:39 GMT -5
There are other politicians in Israel who are more moderate that Netanyahu, and there's a lot of unrest among the population about his policy. But he's clearly an impediment to peace in the area because he will not stop building Jewish communities in the West Bank. That just means he has no intention of ever allowing Palestinians to have their own state. Israel had their opportunity to have a peaceful Palestinian state when the PLO came to an agreement with them back then, but the Israeli government backed out of it. If it was Muslims they didn't like, they should have dealt with the PLO because they weren't Muslims. The only people left to negotiate with are the Muslims, who are desperate because they have no place else to go. they could go to jordan along with their other brethern that are already there... But why should they have to? They were on their land for years and then that land that they had worked was taken from them and they were displaced. What is right about that? Is there any reason why they couldn't have shared? Also, according to Robert Fisk they have been in Jordan and other places, usually in camps. What kind of life is that?
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Post by snow on Jul 26, 2014 22:53:28 GMT -5
Well, I guess there will always be some that do I guess. It was a horrific time for the Jewish people and I don't blame them for wanting a homeland. It's what they are doing now that bothers me. You'd think with all they went through they would have more compassion. being soft got them killed the last time around... I don't believe that the Jewish people ever were 'soft'. You don't go through what they did for centuries by being soft. However, their stance this time could also get them killed. They are a small nation surrounded by people that are hating them more every day. That can't be a good thing.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 26, 2014 23:23:02 GMT -5
Of course. There comes a point where, after the moderates have exhausted all their efforts, that only the radicals have the guts to carry on the fight. Remember the American war for independence? The oppressors have to win all the time, the rebels only have to win once. Genocide, on the other hand, kind of eliminates the chances of winning once.
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Post by fixit on Jul 27, 2014 5:46:31 GMT -5
They are a small nation surrounded by people that are hating them more every day. That can't be a good thing. I doubt that people surrounding Israel hate them more each day. Hamas hated Israel enough to install 9,000 rockets with which to terrorize Israeli civilians. Western sympathizers have been wringing their hands about the "siege" of Gaza, yet Hamas managed to import 600,000 tons of materials with which to build terror tunnels. Islamic crowds in Germany have calling for Jews to be ‘gassed’, ‘burned’ and ‘slaughtered’. In a video posted online, a respected Danish imam is seen imploring, “Oh Allah, destroy the Zionist Jews … Count them and kill them to the very last one. Don’t spare a single one of them.” I'm confidant that every last Jew in Palestine would be slaughtered if Islamists had the power to do so. Its a sad reality that Hamas wants civilian casualties to feed the Western media.
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Post by snow on Jul 27, 2014 10:38:47 GMT -5
They are a small nation surrounded by people that are hating them more every day. That can't be a good thing. I doubt that people surrounding Israel hate them more each day. Hamas hated Israel enough to install 9,000 rockets with which to terrorize Israeli civilians. Western sympathizers have been wringing their hands about the "siege" of Gaza, yet Hamas managed to import 600,000 tons of materials with which to build terror tunnels. Islamic crowds in Germany have calling for Jews to be ‘gassed’, ‘burned’ and ‘slaughtered’. In a video posted online, a respected Danish imam is seen imploring, “Oh Allah, destroy the Zionist Jews … Count them and kill them to the very last one. Don’t spare a single one of them.” I'm confidant that every last Jew in Palestine would be slaughtered if Islamists had the power to do so. Its a sad reality that Hamas wants civilian casualties to feed the Western media. Isn't that what I said? That the people surrounding Israel hate them more every day? By that I mean the surrounding nations, maybe should have had clearer wording. It isn't like Israel is squeaky clean in this either. The amount of civilian casualties in Palestine are far higher than in Israel but that doesn't concern you? I don't like any group that feels it's okay to commit genocide. But that's what you seem to get when there are extremists. Supporting what Israel is doing is no better than supporting what Hamas is doing. You cannot do what Israel has done regarding Palestinian land on the West Bank and hope that the people will take it lying down and not hate them for it. I don't condone the behavior on either side. It's bad enough when it's just politics, but when you add religion to the mix, well it just makes it all the worse.
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