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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 28, 2014 1:57:23 GMT -5
You sound like you think Hamas came to power in Gaza through democratic means. That's not so at all. The people in Gaza have known for some time that Hamas doesn't care at all about what's good for the people, and the Israelis know that perfectly well. Netanyahu is getting revenge on Hamas for the 3 Jewish teenagers Hamas didn't kill -- ooops, poor Palestinians again. Sucks to be locked in a house that's being bombed. The best thing for Gazans is to have their territory demilitarized, and ideally have Hamas banned like their buddies the Moslem Brotherhood have been in Egypt. Palestinians do some stupid things at times - like attacking the Red Cross that's dedicated to helping them: www.netnewsledger.com/2014/07/27/frustrated-residents-in-gaza-attack-red-cross-office/The Gaza Strip was demilitarized -- just like Germany was after World War I. And this is what you get as a result -- bullies/terrorists come in to fill the power vacuum that the winners left behind them. Iraq? You don't demilitarize a country and leave the population to starve. You do like they did after WW II -- rebuild the economy and compensate for your destruction, then leave. The German people were victims every bit as much as the Gazans are right now. That's why Germany has the relationship with the West that it has today. And what is Netanyahu doing for the conquered people in the West Bank -- building JEWISH towns!!!
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 28, 2014 2:08:12 GMT -5
What Netanyahu could do different is wait to have his suspicions confirmed before he declares war. If he had waited for the police to discover that it was not Hamas that killed the 3 teenagers in the West Bank, but someone else -- he'd have not had that reason to declare war. He's something like the US president who decided to go to war in Iraq because he suspected something was there -- and it wasn't. These people seem to accept any excuse to bomb places up -- problem is, they're not promoting peace. The Gaza operation is not about three teenagers - its about removing 9,000 rockets and a network of terror tunnels whose sole purpose is to attack civilians. That's the justification now, fixit -- the sob story Israel (or Netanyahu) presents to the rest of the world. But that's not what started the war. You started midway through the story. Remember that there was no WW I (and thus no WW II) until a nutcase from Serbia shot a prince in Sarajevo. Stupid little people cause worldwide problems when they bullies with big egos and a good military.
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Post by fixit on Jul 28, 2014 2:11:14 GMT -5
Wally, this is about Muslims. Do you think Israel is fighting Palestine because of Islam? Remember, Hamas did not start sending rockets into Israel until Netanyahu accused them of having three teenagers killed. This is not a fight about religion -- it's a war between two hot heads who disrespected each other -- like two bullies in a school yard. As many as 1 in 5 citizens of Gaza are non-Muslims -- and most non-Muslims are Jews. The rest are Christians. The Israelis are killing Jews in this war. Israel is not bombing Gaza because they're Muslims, they're bombing them because Hamas is there. Likewise, it's ridiculous to think that Hamas is sending rockets into Israel simply to kill Jews. 1 in 5 Israelis are Muslims. You don't hear of any of them siding with Hamas. My understanding is that the Jewish population was withdrawn from Gaza over seven years ago. Where do you get your information from?
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Post by fixit on Jul 28, 2014 2:19:27 GMT -5
The Gaza operation is not about three teenagers - its about removing 9,000 rockets and a network of terror tunnels whose sole purpose is to attack civilians. That's the justification now, fixit -- the sob story Israel (or Netanyahu) presents to the rest of the world. But that's not what started the war. You started midway through the story. Remember that there was no WW I (and thus no WW II) until a nutcase from Serbia shot a prince in Sarajevo. Stupid little people cause worldwide problems when they bullies with big egos and a good military. I don't see Israel putting across a sob story. Natanyahu won't be swayed by your opinion of him. He doesn't ask for or need anyone's sympathy - he's simply doing what needs to be done to keep his people safe. Hamas had planned a massive terrorist attack on Israel during the Jewish New Year beginning September 24: www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/25/Reports-Massive-Terrorist-Invasion-of-Israel-Thwarted-by-Security-Forces
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Post by fixit on Jul 28, 2014 2:29:51 GMT -5
Remember, Hamas did not start sending rockets into Israel until Netanyahu accused them of having three teenagers killed. Where do you get that from? Israel has been attacked by rockets every year for the last 14 years: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_IsraelThe rockets and tunnels had to be dealt with regardless of the teenagers. Hamas would never have dismantled their military infrastructure through diplomatic means, which makes a military solution inevitable.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 28, 2014 2:35:42 GMT -5
I guess that's enough for tonight.
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Post by snow on Jul 28, 2014 9:45:52 GMT -5
Wally, this is about Muslims. Do you think Israel is fighting Palestine because of Islam? Remember, Hamas did not start sending rockets into Israel until Netanyahu accused them of having three teenagers killed. This is not a fight about religion -- it's a war between two hot heads who disrespected each other -- like two bullies in a school yard. As many as 1 in 5 citizens of Gaza are non-Muslims -- and most non-Muslims are Jews. The rest are Christians. The Israelis are killing Jews in this war. Israel is not bombing Gaza because they're Muslims, they're bombing them because Hamas is there. Likewise, it's ridiculous to think that Hamas is sending rockets into Israel simply to kill Jews. 1 in 5 Israelis are Muslims. You don't hear of any of them siding with Hamas. No this isn't about being muslim. It's a pissing contest on the part of Hamas and Israel. We will bomb the ..... out of you because we can. What really makes me sad is the Palestinian people have no say in either of these two. They get to sit there being targets and dying for two separate causes. What I don't understand is the support of this. This is about a people that are being treated in horrific ways and the world is once again sitting by and letting it happen because it's Israel? Makes no sense to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 18:49:55 GMT -5
Wally, this is about Muslims. Do you think Israel is fighting Palestine because of Islam? Remember, Hamas did not start sending rockets into Israel until Netanyahu accused them of having three teenagers killed. This is not a fight about religion -- it's a war between two hot heads who disrespected each other -- like two bullies in a school yard. As many as 1 in 5 citizens of Gaza are non-Muslims -- and most non-Muslims are Jews. The rest are Christians. The Israelis are killing Jews in this war. Israel is not bombing Gaza because they're Muslims, they're bombing them because Hamas is there. Likewise, it's ridiculous to think that Hamas is sending rockets into Israel simply to kill Jews. 1 in 5 Israelis are Muslims. You don't hear of any of them siding with Hamas. in the bigger picture isn't it a little naive to think religion doesn't have a small part in the hostilities?
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Post by fixit on Jul 28, 2014 20:02:39 GMT -5
Remember, Hamas did not start sending rockets into Israel until Netanyahu accused them of having three teenagers killed. This is not a fight about religion -- it's a war between two hot heads who disrespected each other -- like two bullies in a school yard. As many as 1 in 5 citizens of Gaza are non-Muslims -- and most non-Muslims are Jews. The rest are Christians. The Israelis are killing Jews in this war. Israel is not bombing Gaza because they're Muslims, they're bombing them because Hamas is there. Likewise, it's ridiculous to think that Hamas is sending rockets into Israel simply to kill Jews. 1 in 5 Israelis are Muslims. You don't hear of any of them siding with Hamas. No this isn't about being muslim. It's a pissing contest on the part of Hamas and Israel. We will bomb the ..... out of you because we can. What really makes me sad is the Palestinian people have no say in either of these two. They get to sit there being targets and dying for two separate causes. What I don't understand is the support of this. This is about a people that are being treated in horrific ways and the world is once again sitting by and letting it happen because it's Israel? Makes no sense to me. Here's the issue as I see it: Only when Hamas is demilitarized and becomes a spent force, can the blockade be lifted. Because Hamas has purposely embedded itself into the civilian population, there will be collateral damage. I hate it that even one life is lost but I think Israel needs to finish the job. The choice is to maintain the siege or remove Hamas from power.
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Post by snow on Jul 28, 2014 20:23:11 GMT -5
No this isn't about being muslim. It's a pissing contest on the part of Hamas and Israel. We will bomb the ..... out of you because we can. What really makes me sad is the Palestinian people have no say in either of these two. They get to sit there being targets and dying for two separate causes. What I don't understand is the support of this. This is about a people that are being treated in horrific ways and the world is once again sitting by and letting it happen because it's Israel? Makes no sense to me. Here's the issue as I see it: Only when Hamas is demilitarized and becomes a spent force, can the blockade be lifted. Because Hamas has purposely embedded itself into the civilian population, there will be collateral damage. I hate it that even one life is lost but I think Israel needs to finish the job. The choice is to maintain the siege or remove Hamas from power. I guess my concern is what will it take to 'finish the job'? Tonight on the news they were asking how much it would cost to rebuild Gaza. My only thought was, before or after it gets leveled? My concern is that Iran may get involved trying to back Hamas and if they do, Israel will be in even more trouble.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 28, 2014 20:32:47 GMT -5
Remember, Hamas did not start sending rockets into Israel until Netanyahu accused them of having three teenagers killed. This is not a fight about religion -- it's a war between two hot heads who disrespected each other -- like two bullies in a school yard. As many as 1 in 5 citizens of Gaza are non-Muslims -- and most non-Muslims are Jews. The rest are Christians. The Israelis are killing Jews in this war. Israel is not bombing Gaza because they're Muslims, they're bombing them because Hamas is there. Likewise, it's ridiculous to think that Hamas is sending rockets into Israel simply to kill Jews. 1 in 5 Israelis are Muslims. You don't hear of any of them siding with Hamas. in the bigger picture isn't it a little naive to think religion doesn't have a small part in the hostilities? Yes, of course. For many religious people, everything is about religion. A lot of Christians think this is all about Jesus' return. It's a wonderfully adaptable cause for war and lack of responsibility.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 28, 2014 20:48:14 GMT -5
No this isn't about being muslim. It's a pissing contest on the part of Hamas and Israel. We will bomb the ..... out of you because we can. What really makes me sad is the Palestinian people have no say in either of these two. They get to sit there being targets and dying for two separate causes. What I don't understand is the support of this. This is about a people that are being treated in horrific ways and the world is once again sitting by and letting it happen because it's Israel? Makes no sense to me. Here's the issue as I see it: Only when Hamas is demilitarized and becomes a spent force, can the blockade be lifted. Because Hamas has purposely embedded itself into the civilian population, there will be collateral damage. I hate it that even one life is lost but I think Israel needs to finish the job. The choice is to maintain the siege or remove Hamas from power. What do you mean by demilitarize Hamas? What would you replace it with? If you haven't got that part figured out, you'll only make the problem worse.
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Post by fixit on Jul 28, 2014 21:11:35 GMT -5
Here's the issue as I see it: Only when Hamas is demilitarized and becomes a spent force, can the blockade be lifted. Because Hamas has purposely embedded itself into the civilian population, there will be collateral damage. I hate it that even one life is lost but I think Israel needs to finish the job. The choice is to maintain the siege or remove Hamas from power. What do you mean by demilitarize Hamas? What would you replace it with? If you haven't got that part figured out, you'll only make the problem worse. Destroy the terror tunnels and the 9,000 rockets that Hamas should never have been allowed to install. The Palestinian Authority should be administering Gaza. Its hard to imagine that the problem could be worse. I fully support opening Gaza's borders to legitimate commerce, but not while Hamas turns the territory into a terror machine at the expense of its people. Hamas turned Gaza into a prison.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 28, 2014 22:29:17 GMT -5
What do you mean by demilitarize Hamas? What would you replace it with? If you haven't got that part figured out, you'll only make the problem worse. Destroy the terror tunnels and the 9,000 rockets that Hamas should never have been allowed to install. The Palestinian Authority should be administering Gaza. Its hard to imagine that the problem could be worse. I fully support opening Gaza's borders to legitimate commerce, but not while Hamas turns the territory into a terror machine at the expense of its people. Hamas turned Gaza into a prison. The Palestinian Authority was supposed to be administering Gaza, but you know that the Palestinian Authority has no sovereignty, and no means of defending any of its territory -- that's the reason Hamas took over Gaza in the first place. Netanyahu really prefers things the way they are because he doesn't have to treat any Palestinian territory as a "foreign state" -- with the rights of self determination. And yes, there is something worst than Hamas. How about ISIS and Al Quaeda. And is it not Hamas that has imprisoned the Gazans. It is Israel and Egypt that have blocked exit from Gaza.
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Post by fixit on Jul 29, 2014 0:12:22 GMT -5
Destroy the terror tunnels and the 9,000 rockets that Hamas should never have been allowed to install. The Palestinian Authority should be administering Gaza. Its hard to imagine that the problem could be worse. I fully support opening Gaza's borders to legitimate commerce, but not while Hamas turns the territory into a terror machine at the expense of its people. Hamas turned Gaza into a prison. The Palestinian Authority was supposed to be administering Gaza, but you know that the Palestinian Authority has no sovereignty, and no means of defending any of its territory -- that's the reason Hamas took over Gaza in the first place. Netanyahu really prefers things the way they are because he doesn't have to treat any Palestinian territory as a "foreign state" -- with the rights of self determination. And yes, there is something worst than Hamas. How about ISIS and Al Quaeda. And is it not Hamas that has imprisoned the Gazans. It is Israel and Egypt that have blocked exit from Gaza. Why would they need to defend their territory? From who? If Hamas behaved responsibly the border crossings would not be so heavily restricted. Giving Gaza self rule was an interesting experiment, but so far not a successful one.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 29, 2014 1:12:11 GMT -5
The Palestinian Authority was supposed to be administering Gaza, but you know that the Palestinian Authority has no sovereignty, and no means of defending any of its territory -- that's the reason Hamas took over Gaza in the first place. Netanyahu really prefers things the way they are because he doesn't have to treat any Palestinian territory as a "foreign state" -- with the rights of self determination. And yes, there is something worst than Hamas. How about ISIS and Al Quaeda. And is it not Hamas that has imprisoned the Gazans. It is Israel and Egypt that have blocked exit from Gaza. Why would they need to defend their territory? From who? Well, all the things normal countries defend themselves from: (1) criminals, (2) terrorists, (3) insurgents, (4) violators of their sovereignty by land, sea, or air. Specifically the Israelis ... if they don't respect their sovereignty. Of course. Israel doesn't care for refugees any more than the US does. Gaza wasn't given self rule. It was clumped in with the West Bank, which wasn't exactly given self rule either. It wasn't an interesting experiment -- it was a way to keep the world off Israel's back for not allowing the Palestinians to take care of themselves. Gaza was like a county without a state, and without Israel's permission to become one.
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Post by fixit on Jul 29, 2014 5:03:29 GMT -5
It would still be a rough neighborhood even without the Israelis...
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 29, 2014 15:40:24 GMT -5
It would still be a rough neighborhood even without the Israelis... I agree. I told you why -- it was demilitarized. First they can't control their petty crime and eventually some bully takes control of the situation for their own benefits. All neighborhoods are rough when there is no stabilizing government in place. Imagine Chicago with no state government, no state police, no federal presence of any kind, and a mayor responsible to Putin. Are you familiar with life in Chicago?
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Post by fixit on Jul 29, 2014 16:39:09 GMT -5
It would still be a rough neighborhood even without the Israelis... I agree. I told you why -- it was demilitarized. First they can't control their petty crime and eventually some bully takes control of the situation for their own benefits. All neighborhoods are rough when there is no stabilizing government in place. Imagine Chicago with no state government, no state police, no federal presence of any kind, and a mayor responsible to Putin. Are you familiar with life in Chicago? No, I've never lived in Chicago. In 2007 the Palestinian Security Force was thrown out of Gaza by Hamas terrorists who have been maintaining their warped sense of order since then. Ideally Israel needs to continue their mission in Gaza until the Palestinian Security Force can be reinstated, but international pressure may force them to withdraw with the job half done.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 29, 2014 19:30:15 GMT -5
I agree. I told you why -- it was demilitarized. First they can't control their petty crime and eventually some bully takes control of the situation for their own benefits. All neighborhoods are rough when there is no stabilizing government in place. Imagine Chicago with no state government, no state police, no federal presence of any kind, and a mayor responsible to Putin. Are you familiar with life in Chicago? No, I've never lived in Chicago. In 2007 the Palestinian Security Force was thrown out of Gaza by Hamas terrorists who have been maintaining their warped sense of order since then. Ideally Israel needs to continue their mission in Gaza until the Palestinian Security Force can be reinstated, but international pressure may force them to withdraw with the job half done. Except in war time, Gaza has NEVER been nearly as rough or deadly a neighborhood as Chicago. But that's not the point really. Ideally Israel needs to finish off its business with Hamas and give Palestinians statehood, which would allow the Palestinian state to establish both police and defense forces with the AUTHORITY and the POWER to enforce PALESTINIAN LAW -- without Israeli interference. That has been the problem all along, and has allowed all the fanatics to add whatever they want to the blame game. My guess is that Netanyahu will never do that because he cannot trust "primitive people" to act civilized. When people are fully responsible for their own affairs, they have no reason to stage a revolution.
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Post by fixit on Jul 29, 2014 20:29:45 GMT -5
Ideally Israel needs to finish off its business with Hamas and give Palestinians statehood, which would allow the Palestinian state to establish both police and defense forces with the AUTHORITY and the POWER to enforce PALESTINIAN LAW -- without Israeli interference. That has been the problem all along, and has allowed all the fanatics to add whatever they want to the blame game. My guess is that Netanyahu will never do that because he cannot trust "primitive people" to act civilized. When people are fully responsible for their own affairs, they have no reason to stage a revolution. It's not that easy. I'm inclined to think that the Palestinians would have made a better job of running Gaza if they were capable of statehood.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 29, 2014 21:27:58 GMT -5
Ideally Israel needs to finish off its business with Hamas and give Palestinians statehood, which would allow the Palestinian state to establish both police and defense forces with the AUTHORITY and the POWER to enforce PALESTINIAN LAW -- without Israeli interference. That has been the problem all along, and has allowed all the fanatics to add whatever they want to the blame game. My guess is that Netanyahu will never do that because he cannot trust "primitive people" to act civilized. When people are fully responsible for their own affairs, they have no reason to stage a revolution. It's not that easy. I'm inclined to think that the Palestinians would have made a better job of running Gaza if they were capable of statehood. What do you mean by capable? (1) Given the opportunity; or (2) possessing the necessary skills.
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Post by fixit on Jul 29, 2014 21:49:32 GMT -5
It's not that easy. I'm inclined to think that the Palestinians would have made a better job of running Gaza if they were capable of statehood. What do you mean by capable? (1) Given the opportunity; or (2) possessing the necessary skills. If they'd formed a responsible government for the territory of Gaza they could have demonstrated to the world that they're ready for responsible statehood.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 29, 2014 22:16:00 GMT -5
What do you mean by capable? (1) Given the opportunity; or (2) possessing the necessary skills. If they'd formed a responsible government for the territory of Gaza they could have demonstrated to the world that they're ready for responsible statehood. And you think they haven't tried? Which brings me to what I consider the more probable outcome of this whole situation between Gaza/Palestine and Israel. Israel will deny them their statehood until the whole of the Palestinian population rises up in rebellion and Israel will be forced to recognize them as a state. Today there is only one country in the whole world who is siding with Israel -- what do you suppose that means?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 29, 2014 22:17:06 GMT -5
What do you mean by capable? (1) Given the opportunity; or (2) possessing the necessary skills. If they'd formed a responsible government for the territory of Gaza they could have demonstrated to the world that they're ready for responsible statehood. But you didn't answer my question.
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Post by fixit on Jul 29, 2014 23:08:49 GMT -5
If they'd formed a responsible government for the territory of Gaza they could have demonstrated to the world that they're ready for responsible statehood. But you didn't answer my question. They are capable people, but they don't seem to be focused on governing Gaza responsibly. The effort that was made to install 9,000 rockets and build a network of terror tunnels was futile. It was a really bad choice for the allocation of resources.
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Post by fixit on Jul 29, 2014 23:10:36 GMT -5
If they'd formed a responsible government for the territory of Gaza they could have demonstrated to the world that they're ready for responsible statehood. And you think they haven't tried? Which brings me to what I consider the more probable outcome of this whole situation between Gaza/Palestine and Israel. Israel will deny them their statehood until the whole of the Palestinian population rises up in rebellion and Israel will be forced to recognize them as a state. Today there is only one country in the whole world who is siding with Israel -- what do you suppose that means? No country that I can think of would tolerate persistent rocket attacks on their civilian population, not to mention terror tunnels under their territory.
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Post by Mary on Jul 29, 2014 23:38:54 GMT -5
How do you come to the conclusion that there is only one country in the whole world who is siding with Israel? Do you mean in the UN council or do you mean individuals within countries?
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