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Post by placid-void on Jul 27, 2014 8:28:22 GMT -5
So I am one of those “couldn’t be happier” fellows. (Strange, I also still believe in Santa Claus).
I feel deep sorrow for anyone who regrets being born.
I am unable to know all of the joys or sorrows of another, so I have remained content within my own experiences, some delightful others quite unpleasant and others unnerving.
Whatever the foibles of the F&W community, my experience has been that I was provided with a solid foundation for growth, development and sincerity in relationships. A foundation that has served me well both personally and professionally.
I have been, and continue to be, challenged by the metaphysics and meaning of life but those challenges have enriched rather than burdened my life experience.
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Post by Annan on Jul 27, 2014 9:10:01 GMT -5
So I am one of those “couldn’t be happier” fellows. (Strange, I also still believe in Santa Claus). Whatever the foibles of the F&W community, my experience has been that I was provided with a solid foundation for growth, development and sincerity in relationships. A foundation that has served me well both personally and professionally. I have been, and continue to be, challenged by the metaphysics and meaning of life but those challenges have enriched rather than burdened my life experience. Do you truly feel the F&W's are responsible for your "couldn't be happier" or is it more the parents who raised you? Good parenting makes a world of difference in a child's life. Could you not have found "a solid foundation for growth, development and sincerity in relationships" if you parents had raised you in other faith? I am not trying to take away anything from your obviously enriching childhood experience, but have to wonder how much of what you experience is because of a loving and enriching family no matter what brand of faith they adhere to.
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Post by mdm on Jul 27, 2014 9:31:45 GMT -5
So I am one of those “couldn’t be happier” fellows. (Strange, I also still believe in Santa Claus). Whatever the foibles of the F&W community, my experience has been that I was provided with a solid foundation for growth, development and sincerity in relationships. A foundation that has served me well both personally and professionally. I have been, and continue to be, challenged by the metaphysics and meaning of life but those challenges have enriched rather than burdened my life experience. Do you truly feel the F&W's are responsible for your "couldn't be happier" or is it more the parents who raised you? Good parenting makes a world of difference in a child's life. Could you not have found "a solid foundation for growth, development and sincerity in relationships" if you parents had raised you in other faith? I am not trying to take away anything from your obviously enriching childhood experience, but have to wonder how much of what you experience is because of a loving and enriching family no matter what brand of faith they adhere to. The point you raise is what I was thinking about also: it's not about the church as much as about parents. I know many B&R people who had wonderful childhood. You are not likely to find them here on this forum, though Also, people raised in the most secular family can have childhood trauma as well.
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Post by Annan on Jul 27, 2014 9:31:47 GMT -5
i am glad i wasn't raised in the truth for i could see the beauty of the truth when it approached me... I agree... Some of those who was raised in the truth believe they had it rough.... Boy! you people are very fortunate in many ways... you don't know what BAD is for not raising in the 2x2 fellowship, so they see the grass greener on the other side of the fence once they leave homes. Yes, some have bad experiences in raising in the truth by their professing parents. The parents are not perfect but they tried to do their best. You can't really understand the way your parents raise you until you have children of your own.
I have known and watching those raise in the 2x2 fellowship for more than 35 yrs... You people have it good! and fortunate to be raised in godly homes, where your parents love you. You know where to return to once you want to do what is right. There are people out there don't know where to go, the world is like a maze, round and round they go in circle.In my opinion, it isn't the faith of the parents but the parents themselves that mold the child. I know plenty of folks raised in Atheist homes who are decent, kind, happy, and loving people. Parenting is everything. EDITED TO ADD: I do not blame the F&W way for my parents' abuse. Had my parents been members of any other religious group, they would have found a way to twist the scripture to fit their own agendas. But I must add that the F&W way was a trial and burden on me as a child being forced to wear my dresses below my knee when mini skirts were the style and not being able to participate in sports or extracurricular activities. When a child is forced to be different from his/her peers, it makes the child a target for ridicule and bullying. Which brings up another question... How is setting a child up for ridicule and bullying good for the character for the child? Then there's the "reward in heaven for suffering for Christ on earth" that I heard millions of times. I grew up hating God for making me suffer at the hands of just about everyone I knew.
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Post by placid-void on Jul 27, 2014 9:48:52 GMT -5
So I am one of those “couldn’t be happier” fellows. (Strange, I also still believe in Santa Claus). Whatever the foibles of the F&W community, my experience has been that I was provided with a solid foundation for growth, development and sincerity in relationships. A foundation that has served me well both personally and professionally. I have been, and continue to be, challenged by the metaphysics and meaning of life but those challenges have enriched rather than burdened my life experience. Do you truly feel the F&W's are responsible for your "couldn't be happier" or is it more the parents who raised you? Good parenting makes a world of difference in a child's life. Could you not have found "a solid foundation for growth, development and sincerity in relationships" if you parents had raised you in other faith? I am not trying to take away anything from your obviously enriching childhood experience, but have to wonder how much of what you experience is because of a loving and enriching family no matter what brand of faith they adhere to. Good and challenging questions, Annan. I think of life as a consequence of nature AND nurture. Clearly my parents played a pivotal role in both. I had good parents. I was an afterthought, so I was raised essentially as an “only child” after my brothers and sister left home. My parents had child-rearing experience so I was not a test-case. All of these factors contributed to my childhood experience. My parents, family and friends all had a specific moral bearing which clearly influenced my development. The sources of that moral bearing were multiple cultural (German/Irish for my parents), familial (their childhood experiences), tribal (the communities in which they interacted) and religious (F&W for my parents and sister, unaffiliated for my brothers). Based on my recollection of the conflicts I had with my parents, I recall them as being similar though distinct from those of my friends in school and peers in the F&W community. The conflicts included the strictures of the religious practice but by no means were the conflicts restricted to that one domain. I had and expressed differences of opinion with my parents over issues of politics, finances, girl-friend choices, and hair length. But, so did many of my friends and these conflicts were not necessarily rooted in religious choices but rather reflected the natural developmental processes of growing up. To contemplate the consequences of being raised by different parents or in a different cultural milieu is interesting but ultimately reduces to the realization that there are so many unique variables in each person’s life that one really cannot speculate about the import of such contemplation.
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Post by snow on Jul 27, 2014 12:05:04 GMT -5
I don't think it's so much the religion we were raised in, but how we take what we learned, how we were treated, etc. and use it to make us stronger. While I didn't have the best childhood, I did learn to be very independent, stand up for myself, and it gave me a lot of insight into how I wanted to raise my children differently. So in the long run it's probably attitude and our ability to make something good out of something that was challenging. If life hands you lemons, make lemonade. Sorry not very original, but hey, it's true!
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Post by Persona non grata on Jul 27, 2014 12:42:15 GMT -5
I have absolutely no regrets being born to and raised by parents who're in the fellowship. I had a wonderful childhood with loving parents and I often heard from my peers (both within and without the fellowship) that they wished they had my parents as their own.
The only thing that I remember struggling with and feeling embarrassed about was the issue about not having a television. But later, as a parent myself, I'm thankful for this too. If just for making me more conscious about my own children's exposure to TV.
My parents taught me that we were to believe the bible. They also taught me to have respect for the workers, but not to worship them or elevate them to any higher status than anyone else. I believe this has been instrumental in helping me not to lose faith in God even after I lost confidence in the workers willingness to address immoral behavior within their ranks.
While I was brought up to believe that we were in "the only way", in practice I saw that my parents considered that others were also saved. Our Pentecostal gardener was considered a devout Christian who we expected to meet in Heaven, as too some other friends of ours who were members of the Salvation Army. This helped to shape my understanding that God's kingdom is not of this earth, that it can never be contained or numbered by man and that no workers list or "Friends" address book of can ever give any indication of who God's true servants are or who it really is that makes up His kingdom.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 13:27:09 GMT -5
My parents taught me that we were to believe the bible. Png, I am curious ... did your parents explain to you why you were to believe the bible? Matt10
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Post by rational on Jul 27, 2014 13:45:54 GMT -5
Do you truly feel the F&W's are responsible for your "couldn't be happier" or is it more the parents who raised you? Good parenting makes a world of difference in a child's life. Could you not have found "a solid foundation for growth, development and sincerity in relationships" if you parents had raised you in other faith? I am not trying to take away anything from your obviously enriching childhood experience, but have to wonder how much of what you experience is because of a loving and enriching family no matter what brand of faith they adhere to. This works both ways. How much of the good is because of the F&W and, in the opposite cases, how much of the bad is because of the F&W? I give the credit to my parents for doing the best they could for their children, and later, their grandchildren. Even though we were no longer going to meetings I my children were never treated differently from the children of my siblings who did attend meeting.
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Post by Persona non grata on Jul 27, 2014 15:07:55 GMT -5
My parents taught me that we were to believe the bible. Png, I am curious ... did your parents explain to you why you were to believe the bible? Matt10 Because, they believed, the way to Heaven is shown in the bible.
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Post by snow on Jul 27, 2014 15:19:20 GMT -5
I think that's what most people do. They believe what their parents believed because their parents believed it. I know I did for quite awhile until I started questioning. That led me to look a lot deeper into the whole thing and I then realized it wasn't something I should just believe because my parents believed it. But I think that is the most common way beliefs are passed down from parents to children. I often wonder if I would still believe in the Bible if I had born into a less exclusive religion. It was that aspect of the Truth that started my questions that led me to not believe in the Bible or a God anymore. PNG, I respect that answer, it just got me thinking about what I just wrote is all.
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Post by Persona non grata on Jul 27, 2014 15:47:12 GMT -5
Snow, I agree. I imagine that in most cases parents are the single biggest influence upon children. I think good parents, and for that matter good teachers, will not just impose their own beliefs but will encourage children to question, reason, and develop their own beliefs.
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Post by rational on Jul 27, 2014 16:29:26 GMT -5
Snow, I agree. I imagine that in most cases parents are the single biggest influence upon children. I think good parents, and for that matter good teachers, will not just impose their own beliefs but will encourage children to question, reason, and develop their own beliefs. many times teachers/people try to do this but there is often a demand from others to tell what their personal belief is, even when it is not germane to the discussion.
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Post by jondough on Jul 27, 2014 16:53:48 GMT -5
I don't regret being B&R. I do wish that my parents would have used their own reasoning more, rather than doing things just because "the Workers said". I think my sister had it a lot worse than I did though, having to wear the skirts and all. She also still goes to meetings, but is somewhat bitter that she was raised so strictly.
I agree with others though, it has to do more with parenting, than actually being raised 2X2. My parents ruled with an iron fist, so when I got to be the age where I was able to rebel, I went nuts to the other extreme. Fortunately I lived through it all, figured out how to set my own boundaries, made it back, and found the most incredible wife that I would never have met if it were not for 2X2. Now we are raising our kids in it, but trying to raise them differently, and hopefully teaching them how to choose for themselves. We try to give them reasonable explanations of why we do, and don't do what we do.
Overall, I am what I am because of everything I've been through and how I was raised. I don't hate what I see when I look in the mirror, so I have no regrets.
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Post by snow on Jul 27, 2014 17:31:54 GMT -5
Snow, I agree. I imagine that in most cases parents are the single biggest influence upon children. I think good parents, and for that matter good teachers, will not just impose their own beliefs but will encourage children to question, reason, and develop their own beliefs. No, they may not impose their beliefs on us if they are truly trying to get us to question, but I think it is a natural tendency to try and emulate someone we love and/or admire. It is a rare person that can pull of a completely unbiased pov when it comes to our beliefs. I'm sure some can though. For me, it was people I admired and loved that I wanted to be like as a child. As I grew up those people changed. But my early exposure to my parents who were very fanatic believers in the Truth, definitely had an impact on me. It took me quite a while to let go of a lot of what I had thought was 'God's truth'. I probably still carry some of those beliefs somewhere in my brain that I am so comfortable and familiar with I'm not even aware I have them. So I find it an interesting thing to see just how many people do things because their parents did it, or believed things because their parents did. I'm not saying that is wrong. In many cases emulating your parents is a good thing. But unless we are given the freedom, and sometimes a reason to question, we likely just follow along in their footsteps in many ways not even thinking much about it.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 27, 2014 17:32:40 GMT -5
My parents taught me that we were to believe the bible. Png, I am curious ... did your parents explain to you why you were to believe the bible? Matt10 Matt, I don't think my parents taught me why I should believe in the Bible. It never even occurred to them that anyone wouldn't believe the Bible!
Also, neither did they really teach us that the 2x2 religion was the only way. Just by their own believing that it was the only way themselves they wouldn't have thought that we needed to to be taught.
We just seemed to absorb it by osmosis.
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Post by xna on Jul 27, 2014 18:01:33 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Jul 27, 2014 18:30:06 GMT -5
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Post by Annan on Jul 27, 2014 18:48:10 GMT -5
I can't watch things like Jesus Camp. I saw it on the news and that was enough. It's like raising little Nazis.
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Post by snow on Jul 27, 2014 20:29:54 GMT -5
I can't watch things like Jesus Camp. I saw it on the news and that was enough. It's like raising little Nazis. I watched it all the way to the end, but it was really hard.
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BaPa
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Post by BaPa on Jul 27, 2014 23:23:47 GMT -5
There is a god is a mind game. There is no god is a mind game. Just let the imagination wonder and all will be OK!. Got it? lolz
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 27, 2014 23:37:32 GMT -5
That was sickening.
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Post by ellie on Jul 28, 2014 8:19:05 GMT -5
I can't watch things like Jesus Camp. I saw it on the news and that was enough. It's like raising little Nazis. Oh my, what in tarnation? These poor children! I haven't watched all of it, but this video, makes my childhood appear broad-minded. My thoughts at least were for the most part my own, and I was left to make up my own mind on some things like evolution and climate change. By outwardly appearance, though, my childhood was traditional conservative 2x2. My parents were good parents, but trapped by fear of what the older generation and and the workers thought. Workers followed by professing friends held an elevated status. If workers or professing friends were visiting all other arrangements with non-professing persons, no matter how important were to be cancelled no questions asked. Pants were a definite no no in case some of the friends saw me in them. A number of activities were limited, and as a female my plans to continue education beyond high school were questioned. So I lived my teenage years attempting to reconcile being the normal teenage me with meeting 'professing daughter' expectations. I failed, so I left home as soon as possible and did a few stupid things and made a few mistakes but also married a wonderful and very non-judgmental man. So even though I'm still going to meetings I selected "On balance might life would have been better without that". Life has been better since I feel that I have a choice now (that doesn't reflect so much on my parents) and I chose to put behind some of those professing expectations.
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Post by rational on Jul 28, 2014 8:40:40 GMT -5
I can't watch things like Jesus Camp. I saw it on the news and that was enough. It's like raising little Nazis. Oh my, what in tarnation? These poor children! I haven't watched all of it, but this video, makes my childhood appear broad-minded. My thoughts at least were for the most part my own, and I was left to make up my own mind on some things like evolution and climate change. I wonder where the line is that separates the acceptable training of children from the unacceptable.
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Post by xna on Jul 28, 2014 9:23:59 GMT -5
Oh my, what in tarnation? These poor children! I haven't watched all of it, but this video, makes my childhood appear broad-minded. My thoughts at least were for the most part my own, and I was left to make up my own mind on some things like evolution and climate change. I wonder where the line is that separates the acceptable training of children from the unacceptable. That road has a big fork in it early on. I like this clip on the big question / fork in the road. youtu.be/S51JNrV9LeI
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Post by snow on Jul 28, 2014 10:08:20 GMT -5
I can't watch things like Jesus Camp. I saw it on the news and that was enough. It's like raising little Nazis. Oh my, what in tarnation? These poor children! I haven't watched all of it, but this video, makes my childhood appear broad-minded. My thoughts at least were for the most part my own, and I was left to make up my own mind on some things like evolution and climate change. By outwardly appearance, though, my childhood was traditional conservative 2x2. My parents were good parents, but trapped by fear of what the older generation and and the workers thought. Workers followed by professing friends held an elevated status. If workers or professing friends were visiting all other arrangements with non-professing persons, no matter how important were to be cancelled no questions asked. Pants were a definite no no in case some of the friends saw me in them. A number of activities were limited, and as a female my plans to continue education beyond high school were questioned. So I lived my teenage years attempting to reconcile being the normal teenage me with meeting 'professing daughter' expectations. I failed, so I left home as soon as possible and did a few stupid things and made a few mistakes but also married a wonderful and very non-judgmental man. So even though I'm still going to meetings I selected "On balance might life would have been better without that". Life has been better since I feel that I have a choice now (that doesn't reflect so much on my parents) and I chose to put behind some of those professing expectations. I have to agree with you. My childhood wasn't the greatest, and, my father was pretty fanatic, but never to the degree we see in Jesus Camp. I watched the whole movie. Just about turned it off a couple of times, but thought if they had to go through it, I had to at least watch it. I cried in the church scene where there are 4 and 5 year olds crying and screaming for Jesus to safe them from being a sinner. That was the hardest for me to watch. It's child abuse as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by faune on Jul 28, 2014 11:54:33 GMT -5
I have absolutely no regrets being born to and raised by parents who're in the fellowship. I had a wonderful childhood with loving parents and I often heard from my peers (both within and without the fellowship) that they wished they had my parents as their own. The only thing that I remember struggling with and feeling embarrassed about was the issue about not having a television. But later, as a parent myself, I'm thankful for this too. If just for making me more conscious about my own children's exposure to TV. My parents taught me that we were to believe the bible. They also taught me to have respect for the workers, but not to worship them or elevate them to any higher status than anyone else. I believe this has been instrumental in helping me not to lose faith in God even after I lost confidence in the workers willingness to address immoral behavior within their ranks. While I was brought up to believe that we were in "the only way", in practice I saw that my parents considered that others were also saved. Our Pentecostal gardener was considered a devout Christian who we expected to meet in Heaven, as too some other friends of ours who were members of the Salvation Army. This helped to shape my understanding that God's kingdom is not of this earth, that it can never be contained or numbered by man and that no workers list or "Friends" address book of can ever give any indication of who God's true servants are or who it really is that makes up His kingdom. I have no complaints about being born and raised in the F&W way. Meetings provided ample time for thought and who could find fault with someone reading the bible. Had I been raised in a more conventional religion I might have slid into being a christian. Or even a theist! Plus I wouldn't have ever 'met' all the fine folks who post on these message boards. Perhaps all of you fine folks reading are the ones most negatively effected and suffering because of my upbringing! Rational ~ It sounds to me like you are saying that the strictness of the 2x2's probably contributed to you becoming an atheist for life, and perhaps if you were raised in a different environment, you might have even slid into being a Christian or theist? Honestly, I can see how all the rules of conformity in thought, dress, and required meeting attendance could turn anybody off to religion for a lifetime! It did a good job on me, too, after a few years as an outsider who professed around 15 years of age. However, when I attended college, the 2x2's soon disappeared from my radar. If my husband today had never professed, I probably would have been gone for good from the scene in my early 20's and would have missed out on all the controlling and manipulative behaviors of the workers over the years. What a shame! But, I feel confident I would have eventually found a church that met my needs without all the extra emotional baggage that came along with professing 2x2 style.
Rational & PNG ~ I would guess that both of your parents were not exclusive hardliners as some others within the 2x2's and that helped in giving you a broader outlook on life in general? Personally, I feel kids who came from families where they felt in bondage to all the rules and regulations of the F&W's, rebelled by adulthood and never looked back? I feel the biggest obstacle within the 2x2's was the exclusivity in their beliefs, which was a big turn-off to me even when young. I never could buy into that mentality and felt it was not a healthy or logical approach to life or religious beliefs in general. Perhaps that's one reason why I could move on to another fellowship eventually, although it did take me years to feel comfortable in any other church after 30 years of 2x2 programming.
That's why I say it only makes sense that a number who leave the 2x2's become agnostic or atheistic due to the problems associated with adapting to outside religious practices and beliefs regarding Christianity. Also, I can see why some even turn to New Age as an alternative to Christianity, since it's more inclusive than exclusive over all.
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Post by faune on Jul 28, 2014 12:08:29 GMT -5
Oh my, what in tarnation? These poor children! I haven't watched all of it, but this video, makes my childhood appear broad-minded. My thoughts at least were for the most part my own, and I was left to make up my own mind on some things like evolution and climate change. By outwardly appearance, though, my childhood was traditional conservative 2x2. My parents were good parents, but trapped by fear of what the older generation and and the workers thought. Workers followed by professing friends held an elevated status. If workers or professing friends were visiting all other arrangements with non-professing persons, no matter how important were to be cancelled no questions asked. Pants were a definite no no in case some of the friends saw me in them. A number of activities were limited, and as a female my plans to continue education beyond high school were questioned. So I lived my teenage years attempting to reconcile being the normal teenage me with meeting 'professing daughter' expectations. I failed, so I left home as soon as possible and did a few stupid things and made a few mistakes but also married a wonderful and very non-judgmental man. So even though I'm still going to meetings I selected "On balance might life would have been better without that". Life has been better since I feel that I have a choice now (that doesn't reflect so much on my parents) and I chose to put behind some of those professing expectations. I have to agree with you. My childhood wasn't the greatest, and, my father was pretty fanatic, but never to the degree we see in Jesus Camp. I watched the whole movie. Just about turned it off a couple of times, but thought if they had to go through it, I had to at least watch it. I cried in the church scene where there are 4 and 5 year olds crying and screaming for Jesus to safe them from being a sinner. That was the hardest for me to watch. It's child abuse as far as I'm concerned. Snow ~ Yes, that Jesus Camp film did take fanaticism to a whole new level ~ no doubt about it! I also had a hard time watching that documentary and wondered if some of those adults in the film didn't have a "few screws loose" to get so caught up in such an emotional frenzy? I felt really sorry for the young kids who were raised in that crazy environment and honestly felt the 2x2's wasn't as bad in comparison to that scene. However, both camps seemed to believe in "force feeding" their young with their eccentric beliefs, which is not good for any child. Some of those scenes you referenced in that Jesus Camp documentary actually made me cringe in disbelief!
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