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Post by faune on Aug 8, 2014 13:15:55 GMT -5
There should be at least one more option.
It wasn't a matter of "here or there."
There were both some things that helped me in life, but also that hindered me.
Some things that helped me, like not starting to smoke. Another perhaps concentrating on learning instead of trying to keep up with the "world".
Others things, like sticking out like a "sore thumb, " because of the way I had to dress greatly affected my confidence in myself.
So I can't make any vote Dmmichgood ~ From what you described, I would guess #3 would suit your picture? You could see a mixture of positives and negatives which seemed to balance themselves out in some strange way? However, do you really think professing would have made a difference in your worldview overall, affecting it more negatively? If so, than #1 would probably fit that picture, since life would have been better off without that experience to cloud one's perspective, IMHO? But, judging from what I see in your posts, I don't think your POV was affected that much by the 2x2's, and if it was negatively impacted, you threw off that influence some time ago?
Although I was not B&R as some of you, I did profess around 15 years of age, which had its affects upon my early years somewhat, which might incline me to choose #4 in the list. However, since I was not B&R as described, I really can't vote here. For sure, looking back on the past reminds me of Michael Jackson's moonwalk in some ways? Perhaps the main question to ask ourselves would be if we could go back and change our life in some way, would avoiding the influence of the 2x2's be high on that list? If our truthful answer would be YES, than perhaps #1 or #4 might apply here? To be honest, that thought has crossed my mind more than once in my lifetime as I thought of how I would probably have acted differently without the 2x2 shadow over my life with all the forever lost connotations of Hell associated with leaving that group? I have no doubt that kept me inside the fold much longer than I felt comfortable until I finally hit my limit of endurance and departed for good.
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Post by rational on Aug 8, 2014 13:26:00 GMT -5
Research on a sample of 587 patients with DSM-IV defined bipolar disorder finds that an earlier age at onset of bipolar illness – along with suicide attempts, rapid cycling, and an increased number of depressive episodes – each had highly significant associations with childhood trauma. Emotional and sexual abuse together predicted a lower age of onset and suicide attempts, while sexual abuse was the strongest predictor of rapid cycling. The authors conclude “Our results demonstrate consistent associations between childhood trauma and more severe clinical characteristics in bipolar disorder. Further, they show the importance of including emotional abuse as well as the more frequently investigated sexual abuse when targeting clinical characteristics of bipolar disorder.” Abstract → Etain, B., Aas, M., Andreassen, O., Lorentzen, S.; Childhood Trauma Is Associated With Severe Clinical Characteristics of Bipolar Disorders. Journal of Clinical Psychiatry. 2013;74(10):991–998 Of further interest: Childhood trauma link to bipolar symptoms strengthened (Medwire News) This entry was posted in Adult, Bipolar, Childhood Adversity/Trauma, Children and Adolescents, Disorders, Featured News, In the News, Non-Drug Approaches, Research, Trauma/Distress by Kermit Cole. Bookmark the permalink.
[/p][/quote] Thanks for the references. Interesting reading. psychiatryonline.org/content.aspx?bookID=29§ionID=1351205#408598
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Post by fixit on Aug 9, 2014 0:04:00 GMT -5
But the third ( Elder in Uraquay.S.A) will face a welcoming committee on return. This welcoming committee wont be flag waving teenagers,somewhere along the line he will meet with them and see their shinny badges and boots mmmma & few cameras along the way. The full monty will be there to greet him?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2014 5:04:23 GMT -5
Well this thread had a lot more legs than I thought it would. Albeit it has turned into a CSA focused discussion, which seems inevitable on this forum. At times I wonder if this focus is entirely healthy or even really, at the end of the day, have much to do with the prevention or treatment of CSA? Is it just fertile ground for ethical debates? Hell, I don't know.
Make what you will of the poll, no scientific accuracy going on here. 30/39 responded to the on balance lines. Suggests the majority are willing to question, to see grey rather than black and white. Is that reflective of this forum, ultimately the majority do not hold diabolically opposed beliefs but are willing to question?
I didn't think a great deal about the wording, hoped people would get where I was coming from but appreciate if they didn't. The middle group - neither here nor there - I had in mind the younger crew really. Thats is the impression I have from from speaking to a limited number of younger folk (than me), that it just wasn't as significant a part of their life as it was for me/my generation. I assumed older folk who experienced both positives and negatives would place themselves in one or the two 'on balance' lines. It does lead me to question the demographis of this board: I wonder if the teens to twenty something professing or ex have much to do here?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2014 5:45:45 GMT -5
Hi Fixit,Thanks, they are well and truely under police watch,they watched Fiddler 1940/50/60s,now dead. Others brought to light,inc the one old retired one. But the third ( Elder in Uraquay.S.A) will face a welcoming committee on return. This welcoming committee wont be flag waving teenagers,somewhere along the line he will meet with them and see their shinny badges and boots mmmma & few cameras along the way. I am now closer to 80 than 70 now. Do look up until you find Carol Smits letter,try via "Ian Parker BiPOLAR research fund" bipolarresearchfund.org.au/ian-parker/www.facebook.com/bipolarresearchfundMags - how were the old retired one and others brought to light? There seems to be a lot of denial amongst friends and workers in Australia around CSA. I see no reason why the friends in regions of Australia outside of Victoria/Tasmania would be in greater denial than friends anywhere in the world. I don't believe they would have access to more information or a greater capacity to influence change than you have. We are talking about an organisation run on fiefdoms and Victoria/Tasmania has clearly demonstrated historically they beat to their own drum. I assume they have had the financial capacity to do so, and still have. I doubt Carolism is totally disappated. So, while a comment on Victorian professing families might be appropriate I don't see the relevance of a swipe at a whole heap of folk that have nothing to do with it. should be seen as in denial or responsible. As far as I am aware there have been two workers from Victoria convicted of CSA related offenses. What these convictions were for, what the conditions applied to the sentence were is not, as far as I can ascertain, a matter of public record. The recent (well for me at least) allegations of CSA involving Ian Parker are simply that: allegations. There is no reason to suggest any of the friends in Victoria/Tasmania know more or have known earlier about this mattter than yourself. I am going to be radical and suggest the majority don't hang out here and so probably know a hell of a lot more less. Are they in more denial than any other professing person worldwide? Are they more blinded or mis-informed than any other professing person. The friends in Australia, or in Victoria/Tasmania are not the problem. Nor, in reality, are the workers in any of those areas. The system is the problem and it is the individual that subcribes to that system that gives it power. IMO every single friend in the world is responsible for this system.
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Post by fixit on Aug 9, 2014 13:46:30 GMT -5
IMO every single friend in the world is responsible for this system. How can Aunt Maggie be responsible? She attends all the meetings faithfully, welcomes workers and friends into her home, is kind to her neighbors and has a loving father/child relationship with her God. Should she wear a STOP CSA t-shirt to convention or what?
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jscc1
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Post by jscc1 on Aug 9, 2014 17:17:55 GMT -5
This is where Pastoral care comes into it. Deacons are chosen,Bisahps ( Elders) are chosen ,They too should have dear Aunt Maggies protection under their wing also. Yes T-shirts at anywhere "Save the KIDS-Fight CSA", I will get some printed up and send out to families to wear. Just informed a couple of caring organisations have them available-buy one for Aunt Maggie put the pressure on the ministry of " avoidence of Pastoral responsabilite & care" Total good cannot come out of the incomplete unbiblical ministry and its psuedo church.
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Post by magpie on Aug 9, 2014 17:47:27 GMT -5
News about Chaldean Christians----look it up now. ISIS is beheading little children So forget about your sick paedophiles being on top of gossip times and discussions God has greater prayer and action priorities for us now
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2014 23:31:34 GMT -5
IMO every single friend in the world is responsible for this system. How can Aunt Maggie be responsible? She attends all the meetings faithfully, welcomes workers and friends into her home, is kind to her neighbors and has a loving father/child relationship with her God. Should she wear a STOP CSA t-shirt to convention or what? I don't know, haven't met your Aunt. Is she from Australia? You stated there seems to be a lot of denial amongst Australian friends. I interpreted that as implying they have some sort of greater responsibility or knowledge in regard to these matters than a non-Australian. I disagreed, providing reasons why I believe there is no difference in responsibility between your Aunt Maggie (where ever she lives) and my Aunt Margret who lives in Brisbane. As to what your Aunt Maggie should do with this responsibility, that is up to her. If she is open to suggestions then T-shirts are old hat. I recommend topless, get 'em out - its always a good way to attract a bit of attention.
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Post by faune on Aug 10, 2014 0:22:19 GMT -5
Well this thread had a lot more legs than I thought it would. Albeit it has turned into a CSA focused discussion, which seems inevitable on this forum. At times I wonder if this focus is entirely healthy or even really, at the end of the day, have much to do with the prevention or treatment of CSA? Is it just fertile ground for ethical debates? Hell, I don't know. Make what you will of the poll, no scientific accuracy going on here. 30/39 responded to the on balance lines. Suggests the majority are willing to question, to see grey rather than black and white. Is that reflective of this forum, ultimately the majority do not hold diabolically opposed beliefs but are willing to question? I didn't think a great deal about the wording, hoped people would get where I was coming from but appreciate if they didn't. The middle group - neither here nor there - I had in mind the younger crew really. That's is the impression I have from from speaking to a limited number of younger folk (than me), that it just wasn't as significant a part of their life as it was for me/my generation. I assumed older folk who experienced both positives and negatives would place themselves in one or the two 'on balance' lines. It does lead me to question the demographic of this board: I wonder if the teens to twenty something professing or ex have much to do here? Passerby ~ I think you made a fair assumption from your poll. Also, I feel a lot of really young folks don't hang out here ~ perhaps it more like a bunch of older folks approaching or past retirement age and a few in their 40's and 50's. By the way, I'm in that retired group, too, growing up in the 50's and 60's.
Speaking for myself, I probably wouldn't have been greatly offended if the Truth just passed me by when I was young. It complicated my life in many ways and the allusion to being one big loving family really wasn't true. When I left after 30 years professing, nobody even acted like they cared ~ workers and friends alike. I was never contacted by any of them after I left. However, I have to admit, I pretty much had my fill of the 2x2's when I did leave and I reckon they picked up on the obvious? Honestly, it's remarkable how soon you are forgotten after leaving the fold, regardless how long you stay inside those walls. Friends I made on the outside are still my friends today, but those professing dropped me like a hotcake as soon as I stopped going to meeting. They never even called to see if I was still alive. I guess they were just glad to see me go by the reception I got in the end?
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Post by withlove on Aug 10, 2014 22:49:12 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_true_church
www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm#only truth and practice
www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm
Faune, thank you so much for the link. Your quote from that compare page drew me in and I just devoured the page in one sitting. Comparing cults gets the most credit for waking me up in the last couple of years...had no idea how similar these groups we have been taught are cults and greatly deceived are to the F&W. Unbelievable. Hadn't seen that website yet, though, and the more of this the better for sorting out the mess! This is so very helpful--not just the quotes from the systems but also the testimonies of the exes. One scary thing is how several mentioned how they felt strong urges to return. So much like battered wife syndrome.
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Post by fixit on Aug 11, 2014 5:29:19 GMT -5
Leaving a "one true church" is traumatic, and the healing process is slow. No matter which "one true" church a person leaves, the expelled usually struggles with residual fear and legalism, shock, depression, and the shunning by family members. It is very helpful to learn that all "one true" churches operate virtually the same to gain and keep extreme control over the behavior, thoughts, and emotions of their members. Many of these groups listed were started by a single man who believed, often through dreams and visions, that he had been called to reform Christ's Church. All of the claims listed below are contrary to authentic Christianity. NOTE: There are differing ideas on what constitutes a cult, but it is generally recognized that a group can be considered aberrant or cultic for (1) claiming to be the only true church, (2) imposing the group's particular legalism as requirement for salvation, and (3) using intense indoctrination and control tactics (4) distorting major Christian doctrine. The Catholic church is listed here because of its one true church claim, but it does not fall into all of the other categories. This quote seems biased. What is "authentic Christianity"? What is "major Christian doctrine"?
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Post by snow on Aug 11, 2014 10:03:07 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_true_church
www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm#only truth and practice
www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm
Faune, thank you so much for the link. Your quote from that compare page drew me in and I just devoured the page in one sitting. Comparing cults gets the most credit for waking me up in the last couple of years...had no idea how similar these groups we have been taught are cults and greatly deceived are to the F&W. Unbelievable. Hadn't seen that website yet, though, and the more of this the better for sorting out the mess! This is so very helpful--not just the quotes from the systems but also the testimonies of the exes. One scary thing is how several mentioned how they felt strong urges to return. So much like battered wife syndrome.
Withlove, that's an interesting comparison you made. The person leaving a controlling organization wanting to return is similar to the battered wife syndrome. It is scary to leave if you were really wrapped up in the belief that it was the only true way. So these doubts would haunt you for awhile I'm sure. The known is less scary, even if it's not good for you.
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Post by faune on Aug 11, 2014 13:48:00 GMT -5
Withlove, that's an interesting comparison you made. The person leaving a controlling organization wanting to return is similar to the battered wife syndrome. It is scary to leave if you were really wrapped up in the belief that it was the only true way. So these doubts would haunt you for awhile I'm sure. The known is less scary, even if it's not good for you. Snow & Withlove ~ That is an insightful comparison to the battered wife syndrome, I have to admit. I feel that some people return due to family inside and the programming they were raised with inside the fold. This feeling of familiarity seems to stay with you years after you leave along with the conditioning regarding outside churches? Some people are even too afraid to venture into another church for fear of being doubled damned, I would guess? However, the more you become acclimated to the outside world and what Christianity has to offer as alternatives, you soon realize that such an influence was not healthy to begin with over time. JMT Although I do remember some good times with friends within the 2x2's, I also remember that feeling of being "boxed in" and isolated quite well, which always went against the grain. However, I can't see how anybody could read about these characteristics of "one and only true churches" and not see a real similarity between the F&W's and how things are conducted within the fold?
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Post by faune on Aug 11, 2014 13:58:44 GMT -5
Leaving a "one true church" is traumatic, and the healing process is slow. No matter which "one true" church a person leaves, the expelled usually struggles with residual fear and legalism, shock, depression, and the shunning by family members. It is very helpful to learn that all "one true" churches operate virtually the same to gain and keep extreme control over the behavior, thoughts, and emotions of their members. Many of these groups listed were started by a single man who believed, often through dreams and visions, that he had been called to reform Christ's Church. All of the claims listed below are contrary to authentic Christianity. NOTE: There are differing ideas on what constitutes a cult, but it is generally recognized that a group can be considered aberrant or cultic for (1) claiming to be the only true church, (2) imposing the group's particular legalism as requirement for salvation, and (3) using intense indoctrination and control tactics (4) distorting major Christian doctrine. The Catholic church is listed here because of its one true church claim, but it does not fall into all of the other categories. This quote seems biased. What is "authentic Christianity"? What is "major Christian doctrine"? Fixit ~ Very good questions to ask. Here are a couple links with answers for you.
worthyofthegospel.wordpress.com/2012/05/14/defining-authentic-christianity/
www.jesus.org/following-jesus/discipleship/what-makes-for-an-authentic-christian.html
carm.org/basic-christian-doctrine
carm.org/religious-movements/oneness-pentecostal/what-real-gospel-message (Jesus + Works Religion = Salvation ~ example)
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Post by fixit on Aug 11, 2014 14:29:51 GMT -5
Faune, it looks like "authentic Christianity" and "major Christian doctrine" is a one-true-way with similar attributes and issues to the one-true-ways that are being condemned.
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Post by magpies on Aug 12, 2014 5:18:55 GMT -5
ONE THING I DID LEARN IS HOW TO HELP VICTIMS OF WORKER,OSTRACISM,BY GOSSIP OR DIRECT. THOSE WHOS FAMILIES HAVE BEEN DEVASTATED BY CRIMINAL WORKER BEHAVIOUR VIA CSA, LESBIANISM AND HOHOSEXUALLITY.OR JUST BEING LED AWAY FROM THE MIND CONTROL BY GOD SPEAKING THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT OFTEN BY OPENING THE WORD UP TO SEE ONES PURPOSE WITH HIM AND HIS WIDER FAMILY. SO PRAISE THE LORD FOR THAT.. BUT WHAT A HARD LESSON TO LEARN TO GET TO GODS LIBERATING POWER.THE BIGEST HURDLE IS TO TAKE JUDGEMENT OUT OF OUR HEART AND LOVE THOSE WHO DISPISE US. WHEN YOU GET FREE IT IS WORKERS AND THEIR WEAK FOLLOWERS WHO SADLY BECOME ONES WORST DISPISERS.
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Post by fixit on Aug 12, 2014 17:02:24 GMT -5
Changed sentence case for easier reading: One thing i did learn is how to help victims of worker,ostracism,by gossip or direct. Those whos families have been devastated by criminal worker behaviour via csa, lesbianism and hohosexuallity.or just being led away from the mind control by god speaking through the holy spirit often by opening the word up to see ones purpose with him and his wider family. So praise the lord for that.. But what a hard lesson to learn to get to gods liberating power.the bigest hurdle is to take judgement out of our heart and love those who dispise us. When you get free it is workers and their weak followers who sadly become ones worst dispisers.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Aug 12, 2014 20:23:52 GMT -5
I chose the last option - "My life has been enriched by this," even though I have not been a part of the fellowship for nearly five years now. Though I experienced a lot of tensions within the fellowship - and particularly in the work - and though the experiences that led to me stepping out of the fellowship were extremely painful, I am glad for the viewpoint it has given me on life and the world. We all have a viewpoint formed from our experiences, something which we can contribute to humanity, and I begrudge no one for the experiences that have contributed in my life.
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Post by fixit on Aug 12, 2014 22:44:35 GMT -5
I am glad for the viewpoint it has given me on life and the world. We all have a viewpoint formed from our experiences, something which we can contribute to humanity, and I begrudge no one for the experiences that have contributed in my life. I have no way of knowing if I would have been better off with different life experiences.
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Post by faune on Aug 13, 2014 20:44:20 GMT -5
Faune, it looks like "authentic Christianity" and "major Christian doctrine" is a one-true-way with similar attributes and issues to the one-true-ways that are being condemned. Fixit ~ Can you clarify your statement with some examples? I realize that Christianity in general is exclusive in claiming to be the one and only way of salvation. However, these churches who claim to be the "one true way" and ascertain that all others are false are denominations or religious group making such a claim. This is not something you notice in the majority of Christian churches today, who make no such claims and acknowledge that other churches also embrace the same basic teachings of Christianity.
As far as authentic Christianity goes, I believe it's just another term used to define the qualities that are usually manifested by a genuine Christian and nothing more. However, basic Christian doctrine usually is centered around what one believe about Jesus and what his sacrifice symbolized for all mankind on the Cross and the grace message associated with the same. Personally, this is something that I feel the workers entirely neglect in their own version of the real gospel message.
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Post by fixit on Aug 13, 2014 21:19:23 GMT -5
Faune, it looks like "authentic Christianity" and "major Christian doctrine" is a one-true-way with similar attributes and issues to the one-true-ways that are being condemned. Fixit ~ Can you clarify your statement with some examples? I realize that Christianity in general is exclusive in claiming to be the one and only way of salvation. However, these churches who claim to be the "one true way" and ascertain that all others are false are denominations or religious group making such a claim. This is not something you notice in the majority of Christian churches today, who make no such claims and acknowledge that other churches also embrace the same basic teachings of Christianity.
As far as authentic Christianity goes, I believe it's just another term used to define the qualities that are usually manifested by a genuine Christian and nothing more. However, basic Christian doctrine usually is centered around what one believe about Jesus and what his sacrifice symbolized for all mankind on the Cross and the grace message associated with the same. Personally, this is something that I feel the workers entirely neglect in their own version of the real gospel message.
One example would be Trinitarian dogma. Many Christians consider it neither "authentic" or "major" and it has resulted in many turning away from Christianity.
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Post by faune on Aug 13, 2014 22:52:17 GMT -5
Fixit ~ Honestly, although I support the Trinity doctrine, I don't feel it should be crammed down somebody's throat as an essential belief relating to our salvation. Therefore, I agree with you on that point. However, I feel some people reject the Trinity doctrine because they just don't understand its relevance to Christianity. But, in all fairness, one's belief in the Trinity doesn't determine their salvation ~ their faith in the gospel message of Jesus Christ and God's grace is what really matters here! For instance, anybody putting their faith in their membership within the 2x2's and compliance with all the workers requirements for them has nothing to do with their actual hope of salvation. That, in itself, would be like an alternative gospel when one's faith is put in a group and not in Jesus Christ alone and the Cross.
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Post by fixit on Aug 14, 2014 5:18:12 GMT -5
Fixit ~ Honestly, although I support the Trinity doctrine, I don't feel it should be crammed down somebody's throat as an essential belief relating to our salvation. Many Christians would disagree with you.
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Post by rational on Aug 14, 2014 9:44:24 GMT -5
As far as authentic Christianity goes, I believe it's just another term used to define the qualities that are usually manifested by a genuine Christian and nothing more. Perhaps those who claim to be 'authentic christians' or 'genuine christians' feel they can make statement like that without others coming to the conclusion that they therefore must be false, counterfeit, or fake christians. It probably seems kinder than simply saying they are excluded because they are wrong.
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Post by faune on Aug 14, 2014 10:38:33 GMT -5
Fixit ~ Honestly, although I support the Trinity doctrine, I don't feel it should be crammed down somebody's throat as an essential belief relating to our salvation. Many Christians would disagree with you. Fixit ~ I'm aware of that fact and it's unfortunate that people feel this way. However, doctrinal beliefs don't need to put up walls between us. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there with good Christian principles that maybe do not see eye to eye on some issues, but that shouldn't build up barriers within Christianity. People really need to learn to be more tolerance of others and accepting of their differences even in beliefs. JMT
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Post by faune on Aug 14, 2014 10:45:37 GMT -5
As far as authentic Christianity goes, I believe it's just another term used to define the qualities that are usually manifested by a genuine Christian and nothing more. Perhaps those who claim to be 'authentic christians' or 'genuine christians' feel they can make statement like that without others coming to the conclusion that they therefore must be false, counterfeit, or fake christians. It probably seems kinder than simply saying they are excluded because they are wrong. Rational ~ Actually, I don't like this designation, as it usually causes contention over what it implies. In the Bible it speaks of genuine Christianity being shown when we show compassion to the less fortunate and needy amongst us and do something to alleivate their situation. Honestly, genuine love and compassion will always be appreciated and noted when it's actually demonstrated within this world, leaving a lasting impression. JMT
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 14, 2014 14:27:26 GMT -5
Many Christians would disagree with you. Fixit ~ I'm aware of that fact and it's unfortunate that people feel this way. However, doctrinal beliefs don't need to put up walls between us. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there with good Christian principles that maybe do not see eye to eye on some issues, but that doesn't need to build up barriers within Christianity. People really need to learn to be more tolerance of others and accepting of their differences even in beliefs. JMT Faune, maybe doctrinal differences don't need to put up walls between people but they already have!
It is because people who don't not see eye to eye on issues that they have already build up barriers within Christianity!
That is what religion, Christianity and all the rest, do!
Religion divides people into groups, it doesn't unite them.
Think of the religious wars in the past between Christian sects?
Think of the religious wars going on right now in Islamic countries!
There are people here on this board that keep talking about the "Muslims" killing Christians in those countries but in the main it is different sects of the Islam that are killing one another!
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