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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 14, 2014 0:00:16 GMT -5
Sounds like you, me and Richard Dawkins! Dawkins' said that sex abuse causes 'arguably less long-term psychological damage' than being brought up Catholic. Surprisingly some people didn't agree. Well, I am no Richard Dawkins fan. In my view, he’s a fundamentalist, in the same tradition of any bible-belt fundamentalist, just different opinions. In another forum that I used to participate in, there was one individual that we used to refer to as a “Bible-thumping atheist”. He had a really good heart, though, which I am not so sure of, where Richard Dawkins is concerned. I could be wrong. But I am still not a fan. As far as the Catholic comment – I think it depends on your generation/location. My husband is a Catholic, brought up in Western Canada. He refers to himself as a “buffet Catholic” i.e., he takes what he wants and leaves the rest. I see little psychological damage from him being raised Catholic. When I first recognized the supreme self-confidence he has from never having been a believer-minority, it was a real epiphany for me – and I began to process the far-reaching effects of having been a believer-minority. Sounds like you, me and Richard Dawkins! Dawkins' said that sex abuse causes 'arguably less long-term psychological damage' than being brought up Catholic. Surprisingly some people didn't agree. Well, I am no Richard Dawkins fan. In my view, he’s a fundamentalist, in the same tradition of any bible-belt fundamentalist, just different opinions.In another forum that I used to participate in, there was one individual that we used to refer to as a “Bible-thumping atheist”. He had a really good heart, though, which I am not so sure of, where Richard Dawkins is concerned. I could be wrong. But I am still not a fan. As far as the Catholic comment – I think it depends on your generation/location. My husband is a Catholic, brought up in Western Canada. He refers to himself as a “buffet Catholic” i.e., he takes what he wants and leaves the rest. I see little psychological damage from him being raised Catholic. When I first recognized the supreme self-confidence he has from never having been a believer-minority, it was a real epiphany for me – and I began to process the far-reaching effects of having been a believer-minority. I am not a fan of anyone unless they have proof for what they say. Richard Dawkins at least has scientific proof for what he states unlike those in fundamentalist religions.
However, Richard Dawkins can be abrasive at times. I saw it happen at a lecture of his. Even some of his fellow scientists and atheists have stated that if he were less abrasive he might convince more people.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 14, 2014 0:18:35 GMT -5
It is easy to understand why Anita Moorjani's account of her NDE is appealing and seems more tantalizing than some others stories.
She is a very personable young woman who who seems calmly assured of what her experience meant.
However, there are multiple places that can one can go to understand why her experience was not as exceptional as it sounds.
There are answers to many of the her statements that shows a different side than what they are presented by her.
This is not to say she is fabricating her claims but rather that she is misunderstanding them.
One place to start is the The Skeptics Society . The Skeptics Society is a scientific and educational organization whose mission is to engage leading experts in investigating the paranormal, fringe science, pseudoscience, and extraordinary claims of all kinds, promote critical thinking, and serve as an educational tool for those seeking a sound scientific viewpoint.
There is her medical records that can be explained in a scientific manner rather than her own claims concerning Stage 4 cancer.
There is a lot of material that can checked about her story before just assuming that her story is correct.
That's the thing dmg. I have looked into her story separate from what she says. In particular the medical records of what happened. The doctor that reviewed these records seemed to feel there was something to her story. The pictures of her before she went into the coma was exactly like what her story says, very low weight, large tumors in the areas of the neck and some other glands, in a wheelchair and quite feeble appearing. The trouble I am having is finding documentation to confirm the story is true, but parts that I have looked into, so far are not false. That is why I say this story intrigues me. One of the negatives I see with her is how she has hooked up with some pretty New Age groups and Wayne Dyer in particular. That bothers me. However, I still say I just don't know about this one. Dr. Peter Ko is the doctor that verifies her medical information, but other rebuttals say that she was never correctly diagnosed and they were only speculating that her system was in shut down mode. I keep trying to find more on her medical information, but can't seem to find anything much other than Dr. Peter Ko. Dmg, if you have anything further on that I would love to read it. I recognize that cancer is able to go into spontaneous remission. So that in itself is not a miracle imo. It is the combination of things along with her knowing what was said between her doctor and her husband when they were out of her hearing range. They both stand by that statement and only they would know what they said and that she would not have been able to know. So there is a chance they are lying, but why? She clearly believes she has had this experience. Actually, it really is that whole combination of so many things about her story that make it unbelievable!
We hear her talking about her brother and what he knew from a distance.
We have to take her word that her doctor and her husband "were out of her hearing range."
Does her husband ever fit into her story to verify her accounts? Does her brother verify any of the things that he said he knew she telling him when he was some distance away from her?
Just asking, I haven't heard anyone say.
It isn't just her NDE but it is the whole combination of instances that just make her story completely unbelievable to me!
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Post by snow on Apr 14, 2014 10:31:28 GMT -5
Me too! I've managed many projects in my career, and nothing is more dreary than a project that refuses to end. I prefer projects that eventually can be pronounced positively, absolutely, undeniably and reliably, unequivocally, indisputably, irrefutably DEAD! Me too, Gene. Now if I can ever get that novel finished....positively, absolutely, undeniably and reliably, unequivocally, indisputably, irrefutably DONE
Sometimes you just have to hand it over to the editor and allow it to be good enough! I find I will do endless changes to my writing if I don't just 'stop' at some point lol.
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Post by snow on Apr 14, 2014 10:39:23 GMT -5
That's the thing dmg. I have looked into her story separate from what she says. In particular the medical records of what happened. The doctor that reviewed these records seemed to feel there was something to her story. The pictures of her before she went into the coma was exactly like what her story says, very low weight, large tumors in the areas of the neck and some other glands, in a wheelchair and quite feeble appearing. The trouble I am having is finding documentation to confirm the story is true, but parts that I have looked into, so far are not false. That is why I say this story intrigues me. One of the negatives I see with her is how she has hooked up with some pretty New Age groups and Wayne Dyer in particular. That bothers me. However, I still say I just don't know about this one. Dr. Peter Ko is the doctor that verifies her medical information, but other rebuttals say that she was never correctly diagnosed and they were only speculating that her system was in shut down mode. I keep trying to find more on her medical information, but can't seem to find anything much other than Dr. Peter Ko. Dmg, if you have anything further on that I would love to read it. I recognize that cancer is able to go into spontaneous remission. So that in itself is not a miracle imo. It is the combination of things along with her knowing what was said between her doctor and her husband when they were out of her hearing range. They both stand by that statement and only they would know what they said and that she would not have been able to know. So there is a chance they are lying, but why? She clearly believes she has had this experience. Actually, it really is that whole combination of so many things about her story that make it unbelievable!
We hear her talking about her brother and what he knew from a distance.
We have to take her word that her doctor and her husband "were out of her hearing range."
Does her husband ever fit into her story to verify her accounts? Does her brother verify any of the things that he said he knew she telling him when he was some distance away from her?
Just asking, I haven't heard anyone say.
It isn't just her NDE but it is the whole combination of instances that just make her story completely unbelievable to me!
Not sure about the brother. None I have ever heard. But the husband and the doctor are the ones that made the statement that she could never have heard what they were talking about. That she should not have been able to know what they said. She surprised them by telling them what they had said. Her husband travels with her to all her talks and is very supportive of her, so I imagine since he and the doctor said this and not her, that her husband does verify her statement. As far as the brother is concerned, it wasn't anything he said that she knew, but that he was on the plane coming to see her I believe. That is pretty easy to figure out and wouldn't be verifiable as far as I can see. It could be a lucky guess or even a very likely guess on her part. I'm not saying this was a look into the afterlife. I am saying there are some things about this one that makes me question it. I really don't know how I feel about a possible soul continuing after death. I really don't like the idea at all. I think I would much rather just be done.
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Post by rational on Apr 14, 2014 11:05:34 GMT -5
Not sure about the brother. None I have ever heard. But the husband and the doctor are the ones that made the statement that she could never have heard what they were talking about. That she should not have been able to know what they said. She surprised them by telling them what they had said. Her husband travels with her to all her talks and is very supportive of her, so I imagine since he and the doctor said this and not her, that her husband does verify her statement. As far as the brother is concerned, it wasn't anything he said that she knew, but that he was on the plane coming to see her I believe. That is pretty easy to figure out and wouldn't be verifiable as far as I can see. It could be a lucky guess or even a very likely guess on her part. I'm not saying this was a look into the afterlife. I am saying there are some things about this one that makes me question it. I really don't know how I feel about a possible soul continuing after death. I really don't like the idea at all. I think I would much rather just be done. One thing to remember is that this is a business. The talks are in the $150/person range. You can stream some talks for $75. Some of the CD are available for $15. There is a vested interest not to allow anyone to examine the medical records to judge their veracity. All of the facts and details are from sources that do not seem available for questioning not is there independent verification available.
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Post by snow on Apr 14, 2014 13:45:39 GMT -5
Not sure about the brother. None I have ever heard. But the husband and the doctor are the ones that made the statement that she could never have heard what they were talking about. That she should not have been able to know what they said. She surprised them by telling them what they had said. Her husband travels with her to all her talks and is very supportive of her, so I imagine since he and the doctor said this and not her, that her husband does verify her statement. As far as the brother is concerned, it wasn't anything he said that she knew, but that he was on the plane coming to see her I believe. That is pretty easy to figure out and wouldn't be verifiable as far as I can see. It could be a lucky guess or even a very likely guess on her part. I'm not saying this was a look into the afterlife. I am saying there are some things about this one that makes me question it. I really don't know how I feel about a possible soul continuing after death. I really don't like the idea at all. I think I would much rather just be done. One thing to remember is that this is a business. The talks are in the $150/person range. You can stream some talks for $75. Some of the CD are available for $15. There is a vested interest not to allow anyone to examine the medical records to judge their veracity. All of the facts and details are from sources that do not seem available for questioning not is there independent verification available. When she first told her story there were a couple of years when she told it for nothing. It was after Wayne Dyer heard her story and fell in love with it because he was going through cancer issues himself that he pulled her into the tell your story for pay crowd. I think she has done herself a lot of harm and her credibility has been reduced, (in my estimation anyway) by going this route. She doesn't charge as much as some. She does need money to travel and spread her message, so I don't discredit someone for making some money off their story. But there are other things that make me doubt beyond that. And there are some things that make me wonder.
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Post by rational on Apr 14, 2014 15:03:31 GMT -5
One thing to remember is that this is a business. The talks are in the $150/person range. You can stream some talks for $75. Some of the CD are available for $15. There is a vested interest not to allow anyone to examine the medical records to judge their veracity. All of the facts and details are from sources that do not seem available for questioning not is there independent verification available. When she first told her story there were a couple of years when she told it for nothing. It was after Wayne Dyer heard her story and fell in love with it because he was going through cancer issues himself that he pulled her into the tell your story for pay crowd. I think she has done herself a lot of harm and her credibility has been reduced, (in my estimation anyway) by going this route. She doesn't charge as much as some. She does need money to travel and spread her message, so I don't discredit someone for making some money off their story. Come on. She doesn't need to travel to get her message out. She is selling streaming video for $75. She is selling books and CDs.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 14, 2014 16:37:33 GMT -5
When she first told her story there were a couple of years when she told it for nothing. It was after Wayne Dyer heard her story and fell in love with it because he was going through cancer issues himself that he pulled her into the tell your story for pay crowd. I think she has done herself a lot of harm and her credibility has been reduced, (in my estimation anyway) by going this route. She doesn't charge as much as some. She does need money to travel and spread her message, so I don't discredit someone for making some money off their story. Come on. She doesn't need to travel to get her message out. She is selling streaming video for $75. She is selling books and CDs. True, her books are both in hardcover & paperback now and she has CDs.
Notice: books, because now she has a second book out on meditation and healing She is either very clever business woman or is being exploited by other people.
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Post by snow on Apr 14, 2014 17:21:45 GMT -5
When she first told her story there were a couple of years when she told it for nothing. It was after Wayne Dyer heard her story and fell in love with it because he was going through cancer issues himself that he pulled her into the tell your story for pay crowd. I think she has done herself a lot of harm and her credibility has been reduced, (in my estimation anyway) by going this route. She doesn't charge as much as some. She does need money to travel and spread her message, so I don't discredit someone for making some money off their story. Come on. She doesn't need to travel to get her message out. She is selling streaming video for $75. She is selling books and CDs. No probably doesn't need to, but lots of people after reading her book have invited her to come to their city to speak. I'm defending her selling her message btw. Just telling it like I have understood it to be. My sister in law saw her in Phoenix last spring and she was quite impressed with her. This is my sister in law that like the rest of her family do not believe in God or an afterlife. So it surprised me she went in the first place and secondly that she was impressed. She went with a friend and her comment was "she gave us a lot to think about". She is an intelligent, educated woman who is a nurse and has been an atheist all her life. Don't know. She speaks to people for some reason.
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Post by snow on Apr 14, 2014 17:23:23 GMT -5
Come on. She doesn't need to travel to get her message out. She is selling streaming video for $75. She is selling books and CDs. True, her books are both in hardcover & paperback now and she has CDs.
Notice: books, because now she has a second book out on meditation and healing She is either very clever business woman or is being exploited by other people.Could be. Anyone that has anything to do with Wayne Dyer goes down in my estimation and that's what has now happened.
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embers
Junior Member
God is love. He isn't the monster you think He is.
Posts: 56
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Post by embers on Apr 15, 2014 9:49:31 GMT -5
There are reasons to giving NDEs some serious thought. It seems to me that some scientists and some atheists reject NDEs because such experiences don't fit into their philosophy. If it doesn't fit, throw it out. One can't prove that NDEs are simply a thing of the mind. Where is the proof? As far as what scientists have said about this subject, quote "Scientists have written Moody's alleged evidence for an afterlife is flawed, logically and empirically," I think that there are many scientists who would disagree with those scientists. There are MANY scientists who believe in God/god, a life after death and NDEs. To simply say "Scientists have written Moody's alleged evidence for an afterlife is flawed, logically and empirically" means nothing and proves nothing. Besides, many scientists fell for the following: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man and we are supposed put stock into something just because a scientist/scientists tell us something? I know for a fact that people are capable of coming to logical conclusions apart from scientists.
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Post by rational on Apr 15, 2014 11:16:24 GMT -5
There are reasons to giving NDEs some serious thought. Who are you accusing of not giving NDEs serious thought? Just because the conclusions were different from yours does not mean they were not given serious thought.Or perhaps because the data available does not support the conclusions reached.No, that is what the believers do with the data does does not fit - they ignore it.There are so many data points that support the idea that the NDEs are indeed products of the mind. The effects can be reproduced.Instead of attacking the scientists making the claim why not look at the evidence? Of course there are. People hold many beliefs. The question you need to ask is "Does the data support their belief?"Perhaps looking beyond Wikipedia for data would shed light. Those scientists actually exist and have presented data which anyone can look at.Do you really want to compare mistaken beliefs? How many tons of the true cross are tucked into alters? How many vials of the tears of Jesus? How many shrouds?I am sure they are. And I am sure you have a logical conclusion based on your evaluation of the data. I know I would like to see that data and I am sure there are others who would as well.
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Post by faune on Apr 15, 2014 11:57:42 GMT -5
Rational ~ You do make some logical points above and I can I can better now your point of view. However, I have to admit that scientists have been wrong in the past about such things as the "Piltdown Man" which Embers also brought up in his argument for reviewing NDE's as possible evidence of an afterlife. I have to admit that this story was a mighty hoax from the past and took a number of scientists on a wild goose chase before the truth came out? LOL.
Also, many well educated men and scientific minds believed for centuries that the earth was flat and some of them even persist in this belief today, referred to as the "Flat Earth Society," regardless of the evidence to the contrary. However, I'm not among that group, by the way.
My interest in NDE's is simply based on my own curiosity and I'm open to any scientific data from either side of the argument in my evaluation of NDE's as proof of an afterlife. Since I'm still in the evaluation stage in my study, I have not yet reached any decision either way. That's the reason for this thread, in fact, to see what others think along these lines themselves and I appreciate everybody's input here. Once I have gleaned enough knowledge in the area of facts to evaluate, perhaps I'll come to a logical opinion myself in this area of NDE's with the comparison of data? However, it's just a topic I like to explore, because I find it most fascinating in the study of the mind and what it's capable of doing when in the state of dying and fading from this earthly scene. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society
Embers shared earlier...
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Post by rational on Apr 15, 2014 12:14:34 GMT -5
However, I have to admit that scientists have been wrong in the past about such things as the "Piltdown Man" which Embers brought up in his argument for reviewing NDE's. I have to admit that this story was a mighty hoax from the past and took a number of scientists on a wild ride before the truth came out? And a lot of people bought into the Ptolemaic system and there were some who applied a lot of pressure to people who looked at the data and suggested a change. And a lot of people have bought into the whole NDE spiritual experienceYou and embers seem to delight in the fact that scientists have been wrong in the past. I agree. For years many believed that NDEs were some sort of spiritual manifestations. As the data becomes available more and more scientists are seeing the error of their ways and asking the hard questions regarding the data. For example, how can spiritual experiences be duplicated with drugs?
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Post by faune on Apr 15, 2014 13:26:00 GMT -5
One thing to remember is that this is a business. The talks are in the $150/person range. You can stream some talks for $75. Some of the CD are available for $15. There is a vested interest not to allow anyone to examine the medical records to judge their veracity. All of the facts and details are from sources that do not seem available for questioning nor is there independent verification available. When she first told her story there were a couple of years when she told it for nothing. It was after Wayne Dyer heard her story and fell in love with it because he was going through cancer issues himself that he pulled her into the tell your story for pay crowd. I think she has done herself a lot of harm and her credibility has been reduced, (in my estimation anyway) by going this route. She doesn't charge as much as some. She does need money to travel and spread her message, so I don't discredit someone for making some money off their story. But there are other things that make me doubt beyond that. And there are some things that make me wonder. Snow & Rational ~ You both bring up some interesting points underlined above in the area of financial gain off of these NDE experiences and lack of independent verifiable evidence. Anything connected with Wayne Dyer would also make me question from my own POV regarding his teachings and financial gain off of the same.
For instance, in the case of Nanci Danison's NDE, she does have a very strong science and psychology background from undergraduate college before law school and she uses it in her law practice involving health medicine and doctors being sued today for malpractice. She even had doubts herself about her experience for about a year afterward, too, and didn't publish first book on the subject until 13 years later, after much research on the subject. What surprised me from her story presented within her video, " NDE ~The Ripple Effect," was that the medical professionals didn't think she actually had any real medical emergency and even proceeded with the intended lumpectomy of the suspicious cancerous sites within the Operating Room.
Since I had this exactly same procedure done about a year ago, found within her description below, I can relate to her anxiety over this biopsy procedure being repeated twice! I was just thankful in my own experience that my condition wasn't cancerous. I had the same thing happen to me in which the procedure had to be repeated twice along with the same number of mammograms, but I didn't pass out within the Imaging Room. However, the medical personnel present back in time admitted that passing out often happens during this long procedure. It's very hard on your nerves to have that long needle inserted into the breast, since the actual procedure takes about 1 to 2 hours compared to the actual surgery afterwards, which takes about 45 minutes tops with an hour in recovery. I would think, if her experience in the Imaging Center within that hospital was life threatening, they would not have proceeded with her surgery afterwards, as there would have been other tell-tale signs indicating an emergency requiring medical attention?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=iezgq2bNbJU Nanci Danison - NDE - The Ripple Effect
For example, I had a mini-stroke and total heart block back in February 2012 around Valentine's Day, and all I remember is being a little confused and disorientated before waking up in a hospital bed four hours later with my daughter and husband at my side. I couldn't even remember what had transpired or how I got there over 5 hours later! My family had to fill me in on the details from when I was sitting at the breakfast table ready to attend church to my final destination within the hospital. The doctors thought I had a mini-stoke and sent me home in two days after further testing only to have me return before the end of the week with a complete heart block and in need of being re-admitted again to the hospital. The second time around they installed a dual pace-maker, since both chambers of my heart were not functioning properly and I could have died, if I had not been given immediate medical attention. However, during all of this, I never had anything resembling an NDE of any kind. In fact, the first question I asked my daughter was "What am I doing here in this hospital bed? ~ What happened to me?" Therefore, I also have some reasonable doubts about these NDE's due to my own personal experience. But, that doesn't negate my interest in learning more about this strange phenomena reported today by different ones. I like to review their experiences and any medical evidence out of sheer curiosity. However, I just felt cheated in some ways relating to my own near death experience, because I remembered nothing before finally awakening. This fact, indeed, causes me to cautiously review the evidence of record for NDE's at this present time and to question some of these stories I've read. Personally, I can see how some people can research this subject thoroughly and make up their own story-line to gain an audience and making money on such an experience? No doubt more than a few have done this very thing?
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Post by faune on Apr 15, 2014 14:34:00 GMT -5
In the case of Nanci Danison's experience, I wonder if she didn't start embracing New Age beliefs way before this experience, although she had been raised within the Roman Catholic faith and had attended Catholic schools all her life? Her experience seems very related to New Age teachings regarding souls as "light beings" found within all of us, which go back to their eternal energy Source within the universe. In other words, we all are like thoughts within God's mind that manifest themselves in human forms for a designated period of time. This is actually God's way of experiencing life through His creation, so to speak? Human reproductive cells coming together to form human beings is also part of this scenario foreordained by God's eternal plan for all creation.
Also, we can reincarnate many times afterward in other body or animal forms, if we so choose? In addition, there is no Judgment, Hell or Heaven, or angelic forms of any kind within our future. Actually, we are just like "little thoughts" within the mind of this Intelligent Energy Source within the universe and human life forms today are just an illusion ~ like being part of a lifetime dream. Also, when we pass over into this afterlife we'll see things so much clearer than we do now and have access to all this additional eternal knowledge hidden from our present human comprehension. Nanci Danison brings all this out in her own version of Spirituality Beliefs gained from her NDE, which she presents in stages within all of three of her published book since 2007, written about 13 years after her original NDE. Needless to say, there is money to be gain in this new form of spirituality and many are getting on the bandwagon besides Wayne Dyer, mentioned by Snow earlier. After all, these books have become million dollar sellers in the past ~ wouldn't you also want to share in the money train they generate?
www.amazon.com/Nanci-L.-Danison/e/B002BMGRM0
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neale_Donald_Walsch
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Post by faune on Apr 15, 2014 15:05:42 GMT -5
True, her books are both in hardcover & paperback now and she has CDs.
Notice: books, because now she has a second book out on meditation and healing She is either very clever business woman or is being exploited by other people. Could be. Anyone that has anything to do with Wayne Dyer goes down in my estimation and that's what has now happened. Snow ~ Ditto! He surely comes across as a real con-artist and fraud ~ along with Benny Hinn and others just like him in the prosperity ministry today. It seems the only people getting rich and enjoying big tax breaks are these televangelists fleecing the people with their stories?
BTW, Nanci Danison also has a second book in her three book series on meditation and healing, too. It's called, "Backwards Guidebook ~ A Companion to "Backwards: Returning to Our Source for Answers."
One reviewer, Jody Long, said: "The Guidebook takes us deeper into Ms. Danison's personal encounter with the Source of all creation, and provides more detailed explanations of the new spiritual truths bought forward in her first book. The Guidebook incorporates exercises designed to explore the reader's current spiritual beliefs and help guide them to a higher level of perspective ~ that of the Source itself."
Jody Long, JD, Near-Death Experience Research Foundation
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Post by faune on Apr 15, 2014 15:29:38 GMT -5
Me too, Gene. Now if I can ever get that novel finished....positively, absolutely, undeniably and reliably, unequivocally, indisputably, irrefutably DONE
Sometimes you just have to hand it over to the editor and allow it to be good enough! I find I will do endless changes to my writing if I don't just 'stop' at some point lol. Dmmichgood ~ Have you been writing a novel these days, and if so, can you provide the "genre" and a brief storyline for our entertainment? I'm fascinating that you are endeavoring such a project these days, but you are an amazing gal for your 82 years old! I'm 20 years younger than you, but I couldn't fathom starting such a project at this time in my life. Instead I prefer sharing my views on forums like TMB, where a number of intellectual people from different walks of life hang out. I can pick their brains and learn something new every day, which I find also very enlightening from this pro-board experience.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 15, 2014 16:02:45 GMT -5
There are reasons to giving NDEs some serious thought. It seems to me that some scientists and some atheists reject NDEs because such experiences don't fit into their philosophy. If it doesn't fit, throw it out. One can't prove that NDEs are simply a thing of the mind. Where is the proof? As far as what scientists have said about this subject, quote "Scientists have written Moody's alleged evidence for an afterlife is flawed, logically and empirically," I think that there are many scientists who would disagree with those scientists. There are MANY scientists who believe in God/god, a life after death and NDEs. To simply say "Scientists have written Moody's alleged evidence for an afterlife is flawed, logically and empirically" means nothing and proves nothing. Besides, many scientists fell for the following: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man and we are supposed put stock into something just because a scientist/scientists tell us something? I know for a fact that people are capable of coming to logical conclusions apart from scientists. Oh there are very good reasons to giving NDEs some serious thought! It helps neurologists understand how the brain works under stress!
The issue of an afterlife it is a matter of fitting into "scientific knowledge."
When you try to compare Piltdown Man and NDE's, you are mixing up examples of two very different issues.
That is, unless you also put NDEs into the catgory of purposefully faked tricks. The Pildown Man was a purposefully faked trick.
You seem to believe that what Scientists say about Moody's alleged evidence for an after life doesn't mean anything . However, isn't the proof of Moody's alleged evidence for an afterlife, up to him (and all other NDE's)who claim there is an afterlife?
Are any of them able to "logically and empirically" prove their claims?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 15, 2014 16:38:17 GMT -5
In NDE's, -the question is not whether they actually ARE real, but about WHY people believe them to indicate an AFTER LIFE.
Is it because they WANT to believe in an AFTER LIFE that they grab onto these NDE's as what they consider "proof?" I think that is the reason.
They are not satisfied with having only life here and now and they want their life extended after their death.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 18:46:06 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 15, 2014 19:30:09 GMT -5
Oh yes! Now how can anyone look that sweet kid in the face and deny that he went to heaven & back? For shame! Sounds like the Grinch that stole Christmas!
That mean old thing!
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Post by déjà vu on Apr 15, 2014 19:31:12 GMT -5
it may be real to him but, the heaven he describes, does not correspond with the heaven we read of in the bible
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Post by snow on Apr 15, 2014 19:57:56 GMT -5
it may be real to him but, the heaven he describes, does not correspond with the heaven we read of in the bible Well since it's all just someone's opinion of what heaven is like, I guess it's to be expected that all versions don't jive! But of course, if it doesn't jive with the Bible, it just can't be true! It's times like this I wish we had a emoticon that rolls it's eyes. The jury is still out on the subject of an afterlife for me, but one thing I know for sure I don't believe is the Christian belief in the afterlife. I lean towards there being no afterlife and I look forward to the day more and more.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 16, 2014 0:00:04 GMT -5
it may be real to him but, the heaven he describes, does not correspond with the heaven we read of in the bible How doesn't it correspond to the heaven in the bible?
Do they have a trailer of the movie yet?Ah, never mind. I just found the trailer.
Interesting that it is coming out right around Easter!
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 16, 2014 11:46:35 GMT -5
Oh yes! Now how can anyone look that sweet kid in the face and deny that he went to heaven & back? For shame! Sounds like the Grinch that stole Christmas!
That mean old thing! Ah yes. The Grinch Who Stole Christmas. For me, the big take home from that story was that he had a heart "that was two sizes too small". I think that is a great descriptor, and I do think that most problems I have had in life have stemmed from exactly that - the times when my heart has been two sizes too small. How can you quarrel with something that gives you that kind of insight? The fact that it is not 'real' does not negate the truths there or the usefulness of the story. That is why I personally worry so little about the literal truth of many things. I fully acknowledge that many people/things may be not quite the way they have been presented or understood. Sometimes the extent to which this is the case is unknown and perhaps unknowable. Still, there are sometimes still enough life lessons for me that they do improve the quality of my life, right here, right now. BTW, I am not an advocate for this movie. I did not read the book, as a good friend of mine expressed the opinion that he thought that the story was "coached" and "too Christian". However, after watching the trailer, I may rent this movie, if I come across it some day. I think it is very interesting some remarks that little children come out with, and you have no idea whether they picked something up from adult conversation, whether they were somehow coached, or if it is something else entirely (?!). I have a friend whose granddaughter spoke of "seeing angels" from the time she could first talk, until she was 4 or 5 years old. These angels "lived" in their house with them, and this little girl spoke of them often, and very matter-of-factly. It would be easy to simply put this in the realm of a little kid's imaginary friends except for one thing: One day when the little girl was out of the house, her mom (not an angel believer at that point at least) decided to speak to them. She said "C'mon, you are freaking me out, would you please just leave?" When the little girl came home the first thing she said was "Mom, why are all the angels flying around outside the house?" This girl is now 14 or 15 years old. She no longer sees angels, and I'm not sure if she even remembers that she once did.
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Post by rational on Apr 16, 2014 12:05:09 GMT -5
I have a friend whose granddaughter spoke of "seeing angels" from the time she could first talk, until she was 4 or 5 years old. These angels "lived" in their house with them, and this little girl spoke of them often, and very matter-of-factly. It would be easy to simply put this in the realm of a little kid's imaginary friends except for one thing: One day when the little girl was out of the house, her mom (not an angel believer at that point at least) decided to speak to them. She said "C'mon, you are freaking me out, would you please just leave?" When the little girl came home the first thing she said was "Mom, why are all the angels flying around outside the house?" This girl is now 14 or 15 years old. She no longer sees angels, and I'm not sure if she even remembers that she once did. This raises a lot of questions concerning the veracity of the reports. The glaring one is that if the mother did not believe in angels why would she even have thought of trying to speak to them? And why when the child was out of the house? Where would a toddler even learn the word 'angel' if not from some adult? Kids like pretend. And some adults play along. I have been known to build a fairy house or two! But at one point when I was describing the house and how faeries would live in it my granddaughter looked at me and asked "You know there really aren't any faeries, don't you?". I said I did but it was fun to pretend and we continued to embellish the house!
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Post by snow on Apr 16, 2014 12:57:11 GMT -5
Interesting Sharon. My daughter used to tell me she used to be my mom. This was when she was around 4 or 5 Did it for a couple of years then quit. I think she still thinks it privately though lol. Because she still bosses me around like a mom. Of course the nice part is I don't have to listen... or I can choose to. Who knows where kids get these ideas from. I had never talked about more than one life around her because I hadn't been interested in studying different religions at that point in my life. That came later so she must have heard it somewhere else?
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