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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 12, 2014 17:29:53 GMT -5
faune, yes I do wonder more about Anita Moorjani's account of her NDE than any other's I have read. I tend to agree with DMG about it being the traumatized of stressed brain protecting itself. The thing about Anita is her Stage 4 cancer, we know she was very sick when she was hospitalized and there are pictures of her in the last days. There is also her account of knowing of conversations that were not within her hearing vicinity that haven't been adequately explained for me. Why this one out of all the ones I have studied makes me question, I'm not too sure. Mostly I believe it is some kind of comforting mechanism the brain does when traumatized. I have to say that I just don't know. Just like why I'm agnostic, I just don't know. It is easy to understand why Anita Moorjani's account of her NDE is appealing and seems more tantalizing than some others stories.
She is a very personable young woman who who seems calmly assured of what her experience meant.
However, there are multiple places that can one can go to understand why her experience was not as exceptional as it sounds.
There are answers to many of the her statements that shows a different side than what they are presented by her.
This is not to say she is fabricating her claims but rather that she is misunderstanding them.
One place to start is the The Skeptics Society . The Skeptics Society is a scientific and educational organization whose mission is to engage leading experts in investigating the paranormal, fringe science, pseudoscience, and extraordinary claims of all kinds, promote critical thinking, and serve as an educational tool for those seeking a sound scientific viewpoint.
There is her medical records that can be explained in a scientific manner rather than her own claims concerning Stage 4 cancer.
There is a lot of material that can checked about her story before just assuming that her story is correct.
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2014 17:47:07 GMT -5
faune, yes I do wonder more about Anita Moorjani's account of her NDE than any other's I have read. I tend to agree with DMG about it being the traumatized of stressed brain protecting itself. The thing about Anita is her Stage 4 cancer, we know she was very sick when she was hospitalized and there are pictures of her in the last days. There is also her account of knowing of conversations that were not within her hearing vicinity that haven't been adequately explained for me. Why this one out of all the ones I have studied makes me question, I'm not too sure. Mostly I believe it is some kind of comforting mechanism the brain does when traumatized. I have to say that I just don't know. Just like why I'm agnostic, I just don't know. It is easy to understand why Anita Moorjani's account of her NDE is appealing and seems more tantalizing than some others stories.
She is a very personable young woman who who seems calmly assured of what her experience meant.
However, there are multiple places that can one can go to understand why her experience was not as exceptional as it sounds.
There are answers to many of the her statements that shows a different side than what they are presented by her.
This is not to say she is fabricating her claims but rather that she is misunderstanding them.
One place to start is the The Skeptics Society . The Skeptics Society is a scientific and educational organization whose mission is to engage leading experts in investigating the paranormal, fringe science, pseudoscience, and extraordinary claims of all kinds, promote critical thinking, and serve as an educational tool for those seeking a sound scientific viewpoint.
There is her medical records that can be explained in a scientific manner rather than her own claims concerning Stage 4 cancer.
There is a lot of material that can checked about her story before just assuming that her story is correct.
That's the thing dmg. I have looked into her story separate from what she says. In particular the medical records of what happened. The doctor that reviewed these records seemed to feel there was something to her story. The pictures of her before she went into the coma was exactly like what her story says, very low weight, large tumors in the areas of the neck and some other glands, in a wheelchair and quite feeble appearing. The trouble I am having is finding documentation to confirm the story is true, but parts that I have looked into, so far are not false. That is why I say this story intrigues me. One of the negatives I see with her is how she has hooked up with some pretty New Age groups and Wayne Dyer in particular. That bothers me. However, I still say I just don't know about this one. Dr. Peter Ko is the doctor that verifies her medical information, but other rebuttals say that she was never correctly diagnosed and they were only speculating that her system was in shut down mode. I keep trying to find more on her medical information, but can't seem to find anything much other than Dr. Peter Ko. Dmg, if you have anything further on that I would love to read it. I recognize that cancer is able to go into spontaneous remission. So that in itself is not a miracle imo. It is the combination of things along with her knowing what was said between her doctor and her husband when they were out of her hearing range. They both stand by that statement and only they would know what they said and that she would not have been able to know. So there is a chance they are lying, but why? She clearly believes she has had this experience.
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Post by faune on Apr 12, 2014 19:40:22 GMT -5
Snow shared...
Snow ~ The fascination with New Age Thought after experiencing the NDE was something I found with Nanci Danison, too. It seems they both tend to favor this way of thinking regarding how they interpreted their out-of-body experiences. Since I'm not very up on New Age myself, I have reading Nanci's book to learn more about it ~ especially relating to her NDE. Since I'm not familiar with all the terms, I've been taking my time working through it. I read her last book twice to get some clear insights on what she was saying about religious beliefs along with other things. Considering Nanci was raised Catholic all her life and attended Catholic schools and college, it's a bit shocking to see such a change in her beliefs today! I haven't read Anita Moorjani's book yet, but hope to in the future, when I finish with Nanci' Danison's two other books.
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2014 20:04:42 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 12, 2014 20:13:31 GMT -5
It is easy to understand why Anita Moorjani's account of her NDE is appealing and seems more tantalizing than some others stories.
She is a very personable young woman who who seems calmly assured of what her experience meant.
However, there are multiple places that can one can go to understand why her experience was not as exceptional as it sounds.
There are answers to many of the her statements that shows a different side than what they are presented by her.
This is not to say she is fabricating her claims but rather that she is misunderstanding them.
One place to start is the The Skeptics Society . The Skeptics Society is a scientific and educational organization whose mission is to engage leading experts in investigating the paranormal, fringe science, pseudoscience, and extraordinary claims of all kinds, promote critical thinking, and serve as an educational tool for those seeking a sound scientific viewpoint.
There is her medical records that can be explained in a scientific manner rather than her own claims concerning Stage 4 cancer.
There is a lot of material that can checked about her story before just assuming that her story is correct.
That's the thing dmg. I have looked into her story separate from what she says. In particular the medical records of what happened. The doctor that reviewed these records seemed to feel there was something to her story. The pictures of her before she went into the coma was exactly like what her story says, very low weight, large tumors in the areas of the neck and some other glands, in a wheelchair and quite feeble appearing. The trouble I am having is finding documentation to confirm the story is true, but parts that I have looked into, so far are not false. That is why I say this story intrigues me. One of the negatives I see with her is how she has hooked up with some pretty New Age groups and Wayne Dyer in particular. That bothers me. However, I still say I just don't know about this one. Dr. Peter Ko is the doctor that verifies her medical information, but other rebuttals say that she was never correctly diagnosed and they were only speculating that her system was in shut down mode. I keep trying to find more on her medical information, but can't seem to find anything much other than Dr. Peter Ko. Dmg, if you have anything further on that I would love to read it. I recognize that cancer is able to go into spontaneous remission. So that in itself is not a miracle imo. It is the combination of things along with her knowing what was said between her doctor and her husband when they were out of her hearing range. They both stand by that statement and only they would know what they said and that she would not have been able to know. So there is a chance they are lying, but why? She clearly believes she has had this experience. Yes, I know. So have I looked into what I can find of her the medical records.
That is the problem, -you can't find much .
Which as it should be. That is a right to privacy issue. People shouldn't be able to just go & see anyone's medical records. That is personal information.
That of course also means one has to take HER word for what happened. All anyone can really do is use what she said, then use that to see what a typical case would be. I found was this about her case: "the clinical picture was consistent with progressive Hodgkin's Lymphoma, a presumptive diagnosis was made of Stage IV Hodgkin's Lymphoma. However, this diagnosis was not confirmed, as biopsies were not taken at that time. There was also a concern, based on clinical exam, that she had multi-organ failure, but diagnostic tests did not confirm this." Actually the only thing about her story that intrigues me, is how many people quickly jump on the band wagon of NDE's in an attempt to "prove" that there is a life after death.
The psychological implications of why people believe that there is life after death & are so willing believe such books as hers without much questioning is much like many people once believed that there were seers who could call up spirits of the dead and have them talk to you!
All of it flouts logic, -yet many people will believe it!
In my opinion all of it simply stems from the desire to believe we will live beyond death.
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2014 21:13:16 GMT -5
This is a three part video of a talk done by Dr. Peter Ko about his review of the medical files. Haven't watched all of it, but it is interesting what I have seen. anitamoorjani.com/about-anita/
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2014 0:48:40 GMT -5
This is a three part video of a talk done by Dr. Peter Ko about his review of the medical files. Haven't watched all of it, but it is interesting what I have seen. anitamoorjani.com/about-anita/ Thanks, snow. I have seen those also.
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2014 9:33:39 GMT -5
Rational ~ Christians have been known to believe a lot of things found within the Bible without verification, too, so I would guess I don't stand alone in this area? Oh no, you don't stand alone. There are people who believe reptilians live deep in the earth and that there are tunnels connecting all parts of the world. There is no limit to what people will believe without proof. Actually, I try to pick and choose things that support reality, things that can be tested and verified.No, not everything and that is why it is labeled supernatural or paranormal. There is much more supporting evidence of what causes the "NDE"s but the people who want to think they have somehow glimpsed into the 'beyond' have no use for actual data.How many children raised in India have had an NDE and experienced visions of Jesus? They have no ax to grind but they have been indoctrinated in their beliefs.You know, your superfluous use of question marks make it difficult to determine which of your phrases are statements and which are meant to be interrogatory phrases.Glad you find it fascinating.
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2014 9:40:48 GMT -5
This is a three part video of a talk done by Dr. Peter Ko about his review of the medical files. Haven't watched all of it, but it is interesting what I have seen. anitamoorjani.com/about-anita/ Thanks, snow. I have seen those also.Yes you likely have. Was just showing what I have watched etc. They are very boring imo.
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2014 13:34:46 GMT -5
Thanks, snow. I have seen those also. Yes you likely have. Was just showing what I have watched etc. They are very boring imo. Isn't it surprising that the medical records have not been reviewed by a second person? One that actually shows up as a doctor somewhere?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2014 14:52:42 GMT -5
Thanks, snow. I have seen those also. Yes you likely have. Was just showing what I have watched etc. They are very boring imo. ! Yes, very boring, and definitely skewed pro-Anita.
Had Dr. Ko said anything anti-Anita, I'm sure it wouldn't seen the light of day. I kept trying to hear even one small nugget of fact that that would cause one to believe that Anita's story was proof of what happened.
As have said before several times, I am not saying that Anita's story is purposely faked, but rather it is as she views it!
Stop to think what happens when we have ANY experience; -witness to an accident, -a dream. Immediately, as soon we have time to reflect, don't we start trying to form it into "order" so it makes sense to us?
That "sense of order" that we make of it definitely has to do with our other experiences in life and our beliefs.
( I discovered this on my own when I was keeping track of my dreams just to see if they had any commonality. As I was writing them down I realized I was automatically putting them into some kind of "order." )
Putting anything into order requires interpretation, -emphasis on some parts, -and pruning out of others.
This isn't even necessarily done in conscious manner.
That is why we need more that one person's interpretation of what happens and we simply don't have that in Anita Moorjani's account of her NDE.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2014 15:07:22 GMT -5
Yes you likely have. Was just showing what I have watched etc. They are very boring imo. Isn't it surprising that the medical records have not been reviewed by a second person? One that actually shows up as a doctor somewhere? Right, we never get reviews from other physicians. Not surprising in a way.
A lot of physicians don't really want to get mixed up in such a controversy.
People tend to want to believe her story because they want to believe in an Life After Death.
Actually that is what it all comes down to, wanting to believe in an Life After Death. ( I keep repeating this but I doubt many people are listening! )
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 13, 2014 15:15:57 GMT -5
Right, we never get reviews from other physicians. Not surprising in a way.
The people want to believe her story because they want to believe in an Life After Death.
Actually that is what it all comes down to, wanting to believe in an Life After Death. ( I keep repeating this but I doubt many people are listening! )
I agree that it gets down to wanting to believe in Life after Death. But, then, I don't find a single thing wrong with wanting to believe that.
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Post by faune on Apr 13, 2014 15:31:53 GMT -5
Rational ~ Christians have been known to believe a lot of things found within the Bible without verification, too, so I would guess I don't stand alone in this area? Oh no, you don't stand alone. There are people who believe reptilians live deep in the earth and that there are tunnels connecting all parts of the world. There is no limit to what people will believe without proof. Actually, I try to pick and choose things that support reality, things that can be tested and verified.No, not everything and that is why it is labeled supernatural or paranormal. There is much more supporting evidence of what causes the "NDE"s but the people who want to think they have somehow glimpsed into the 'beyond' have no use for actual data.How many children raised in India have had an NDE and experienced visions of Jesus? They have no ax to grind but they have been indoctrinated in their beliefs.You know, your superfluous use of question marks make it difficult to determine which of your phrases are statements and which are meant to be interrogatory phrases.Glad you find it fascinating. Rational ~ In response to a few of your statement above:
1) "Oh no, you don't stand alone. There are people who believe reptilians live deep in the earth and that there are tunnels connecting all parts of the world. There is no limit to what people will believe without proof."
I don't buy into that logic and find it pretty amusing. I would rate it among science fiction, but not in the realm of reality. 2) "Actually, I try to pick and choose things that support reality, things that can be tested and verified."
Nothing wrong with that approach to life ~ in fact, it's pretty safe to follow to avoid being mislead.
3) "No, not everything and that is why it is labeled supernatural or paranormal. There is much more supporting evidence of what causes the "NDE"s but the people who want to think they have somehow glimpsed into the 'beyond' have no use for actual data."
Actually, I'm not opposed to scientific data that can give me a clearer insight on things. In fact, I welcome it, like Snow's provided links above regarding medical evidence to back up Anita Moorjani's claims. That's just a good approach to finding out for yourself if something has substance to it or not. However, even that medical evidence does seem to be that promising according to DMG and Snow.
4) "How many children raised in India have had an NDE and experienced visions of Jesus? They have no ax to grind but they have been indoctrinated in their beliefs."
In the case of an innocent child young in years, they would have less incentive to present anything other than what they really experienced regardless where they were raised ~ India or the U.S. and under any particular set of beliefs. I would think that they would be too young to form educated opinions and their accounts would be with less editing. JMT
5) "You know, your superfluous use of question marks make it difficult to determine which of your phrases are statements and which are meant to be interrogatory phrases."
When a thought I express also presents a question within my mind, I tend to use the question mark at the end of my sentence. Sorry if this bothers you. However, it's a compulsive habit of mine, although I realize a question mark is not always required.
6) Glad you find it fascinating.
I do find studying NDE's a fascinating topic due to the mystery surrounding it. However, I wouldn't be surprised if some experiences are exaggerated to sell books or gain fame in this area? Many of these books have become best sellers in the past, like Betty Eades book, "Embraced by the Light." However, I didn't have to read it very long before I picked up on her Mormon background intertwined within her NDE. I believe this may be an occurrence within a number of these NDE's, including John Piper's NDE story accounted in his book, "90 Minutes in Heaven." John Piper actually was pronounced clinically dead by paramedics, but revived from a long coma with his faculties still intact. That's another miraculous occurrence, IMHO.
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Post by faune on Apr 13, 2014 15:38:01 GMT -5
Isn't it surprising that the medical records have not been reviewed by a second person? One that actually shows up as a doctor somewhere? Right, we never get reviews from other physicians. Not surprising in a way.
A lot of physicians don't really want to get mixed up in such a controversy.
People tend to want to believe her story because they want to believe in an Life After Death.
Actually that is what it all comes down to, wanting to believe in an Life After Death. ( I keep repeating this but I doubt many people are listening! )
Dmmichgood ~ I'm listening and I did pick up on your repeating yourself! Honestly, at your age, you definitely have a right to a few repetitions in your posts. Nothing wrong with it anyway. I do my own share of repetitions and obvious screw-ups in my posts, which always require editing later to make sense. Also, I'm about 20 years younger than you, but I probably surpass you in my own number of screw-ups. I don't believe you can post a lot without making a few mistakes anyway.
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2014 17:07:17 GMT -5
Isn't it surprising that the medical records have not been reviewed by a second person? One that actually shows up as a doctor somewhere? Right, we never get reviews from other physicians. Not surprising in a way.
A lot of physicians don't really want to get mixed up in such a controversy.
People tend to want to believe her story because they want to believe in an Life After Death.
Actually that is what it all comes down to, wanting to believe in an Life After Death. ( I keep repeating this but I doubt many people are listening! )
Actually it's the opposite for me. I really don't want there to be life after death. Living one life has been hard enough for me. I look forward to the finality of the grave. I would rather be able to prove her wrong. Dr. Ko is a physican in Pasadena, CA apparently, and I have seen his name in the Drs. list. They list him as a pathologist and give his credentials at Dr.score.com www.drscore.com/California/Pathology/search/Peter-Ko_10443352.html
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Post by faune on Apr 13, 2014 17:28:04 GMT -5
Thanks, snow. I have seen those also. Yes you likely have. Was just showing what I have watched etc. They are very boring imo. Snow ~ Boring videos! And I was just going to check them out myself. Oh well, perhaps I will take your word for it on that one or do a cursory check and see what I think of it.
Dmmichgood ~ You are one keen reader of books of all kinds. You also have such a fabulous memory for detail at your age! What's your secret?
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Post by Gene on Apr 13, 2014 18:42:52 GMT -5
Right, we never get reviews from other physicians. Not surprising in a way.
A lot of physicians don't really want to get mixed up in such a controversy.
People tend to want to believe her story because they want to believe in an Life After Death.
Actually that is what it all comes down to, wanting to believe in an Life After Death. ( I keep repeating this but I doubt many people are listening! )
Actually it's the opposite for me. I really don't want there to be life after death. Living one life has been hard enough for me. I look forward to the finality of the grave... Me too! I've managed many projects in my career, and nothing is more dreary than a project that refuses to end. I prefer projects that eventually can be pronounced positively, absolutely, undeniably and reliably, unequivocally, indisputably, irrefutably DEAD!
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2014 20:13:52 GMT -5
I agree that it gets down to wanting to believe in Life after Death. But, then, I don't find a single thing wrong with wanting to believe that. Not one thing. Unless you are teaching your children that if they are not good they will miss out on eternal life. That Jesus will be disappointed in them if they do not follow the guideline that someone else believes. And, of course, if you want eternal life for your children so much that you are willing to kill them so they will not commit a sin that will deny them eternal life. Or if you believe that the goal is eternal life and your chances will be better if you 'fight the good fight; (whatever that might mean to you). There is nothing wrong with you believing, it is the collateral damage that is the issue.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 13, 2014 20:33:03 GMT -5
Actually it's the opposite for me. I really don't want there to be life after death. Living one life has been hard enough for me. I look forward to the finality of the grave. Sentiments like this always make me feel sad. For myself, I would do this again and again and again. (And perhaps I have. ) This existence, other dimensions, other planes of existence? Who knows? But I am totally okay with it all. Even if *I* did not continue to exist, I think I am okay with that too.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 13, 2014 20:38:52 GMT -5
I agree that it gets down to wanting to believe in Life after Death. But, then, I don't find a single thing wrong with wanting to believe that. Not one thing. Unless you are teaching your children that if they are not good they will miss out on eternal life. That Jesus will be disappointed in them if they do not follow the guideline that someone else believes. And, of course, if you want eternal life for your children so much that you are willing to kill them so they will not commit a sin that will deny them eternal life. Or if you believe that the goal is eternal life and your chances will be better if you 'fight the good fight; (whatever that might mean to you). There is nothing wrong with you believing, it is the collateral damage that is the issue. I totally agree. I think I've expressed this in this forum before, and I will again. As society continues to evolve, I believe that someday this will be recognized as a form of child abuse.
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Post by xna on Apr 13, 2014 21:03:12 GMT -5
I agree that it gets down to wanting to believe in Life after Death. But, then, I don't find a single thing wrong with wanting to believe that. --------------------------------
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2014 21:43:00 GMT -5
Not one thing. Unless you are teaching your children that if they are not good they will miss out on eternal life. That Jesus will be disappointed in them if they do not follow the guideline that someone else believes. And, of course, if you want eternal life for your children so much that you are willing to kill them so they will not commit a sin that will deny them eternal life. Or if you believe that the goal is eternal life and your chances will be better if you 'fight the good fight; (whatever that might mean to you). There is nothing wrong with you believing, it is the collateral damage that is the issue. I totally agree. I think I've expressed this in this forum before, and I will again. As society continues to evolve, I believe that someday this will be recognized as a form of child abuse. Sounds like you, me and Richard Dawkins! Dawkins' said that sex abuse causes 'arguably less long-term psychological damage' than being brought up Catholic. Surprisingly some people didn't agree.
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2014 21:44:06 GMT -5
Actually it's the opposite for me. I really don't want there to be life after death. Living one life has been hard enough for me. I look forward to the finality of the grave. Sentiments like this always make me feel sad. For myself, I would do this again and again and again. (And perhaps I have. ) This existence, other dimensions, other planes of existence? Who knows? But I am totally okay with it all. Even if *I* did not continue to exist, I think I am okay with that too. Don't be sad Sharon. I'm ok. I'm just very tired.
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2014 21:47:47 GMT -5
I totally agree. I think I've expressed this in this forum before, and I will again. As society continues to evolve, I believe that someday this will be recognized as a form of child abuse. Sounds like you, me and Richard Dawkins! Dawkins' said that sex abuse causes 'arguably less long-term psychological damage' than being brought up Catholic. Surprisingly some people didn't agree. The one thing that bothers me about my grandson being brought up Catholic is they are going to tell him about hell and how to get to heaven and as far as I'm concerned it is abusive. I will be the bad guy if I tell him none of it is true. So what do I do? Keep quiet and let him grew up thinking that? I know when he becomes an adult or sooner, he can think for himself, but until then I can't help wonder if he will be afraid or worry about it and it makes me feel so sad.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 13, 2014 22:19:36 GMT -5
I totally agree. I think I've expressed this in this forum before, and I will again. As society continues to evolve, I believe that someday this will be recognized as a form of child abuse. Sounds like you, me and Richard Dawkins! Dawkins' said that sex abuse causes 'arguably less long-term psychological damage' than being brought up Catholic. Surprisingly some people didn't agree. Well, I am no Richard Dawkins fan. In my view, he’s a fundamentalist, in the same tradition of any bible-belt fundamentalist, just different opinions. In another forum that I used to participate in, there was one individual that we used to refer to as a “Bible-thumping atheist”. He had a really good heart, though, which I am not so sure of, where Richard Dawkins is concerned. I could be wrong. But I am still not a fan. As far as the Catholic comment – I think it depends on your generation/location. My husband is a Catholic, brought up in Western Canada. He refers to himself as a “buffet Catholic” i.e., he takes what he wants and leaves the rest. I see little psychological damage from him being raised Catholic. When I first recognized the supreme self-confidence he has from never having been a believer-minority, it was a real epiphany for me – and I began to process the far-reaching effects of having been a believer-minority.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2014 23:35:01 GMT -5
Right, we never get reviews from other physicians. Not surprising in a way.
The people want to believe her story because they want to believe in an Life After Death.
Actually that is what it all comes down to, wanting to believe in an Life After Death. ( I keep repeating this but I doubt many people are listening! )
I agree that it gets down to wanting to believe in Life after Death. But, then, I don't find a single thing wrong with wanting to believe that. I find a lot wrong with wanting to believe there is "Life after Death."
Think of all the time spent working towards that end?
Also it is all personal about the ME and not about others!
It isn't any concern with how you can make "Life Now" better for everyone else along the way in this journey that we call living!
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2014 23:39:12 GMT -5
Actually it's the opposite for me. I really don't want there to be life after death. Living one life has been hard enough for me. I look forward to the finality of the grave... Me too! I've managed many projects in my career, and nothing is more dreary than a project that refuses to end. I prefer projects that eventually can be pronounced positively, absolutely, undeniably and reliably, unequivocally, indisputably, irrefutably DEAD! Me too, Gene. Now if I can ever get that novel finished....positively, absolutely, undeniably and reliably, unequivocally, indisputably, irrefutably DONE
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