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Post by snow on Apr 10, 2014 9:49:27 GMT -5
Sounds good on the points later. I know that quite a few people do like his books. Not sure why I wasn't drawn in because I think most people are. I have a couple of his books, and although I love the titles (e.g. "Peace is Every Step"), they have never made a lot of impact on me (yet). But.. this guy has presence...you might be more impressed if you watch some of his stuff on youtube (particularly if there are subtitles). Yes it was the titles of his books that drew me, but once I started reading I didn't finish. I have never watched his you tube stuff so maybe that is the way to go? I may try.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 11, 2014 9:16:30 GMT -5
I think to go into this type of considerations of who and why, etc we'd likely have to get into the predestination issues fairly well explained in Romans....I think that Romans are really about the Jews that were Romans...so this predestination still goes into the "remnant" that God says He has reserved! Some of the gospels say Jesus died for the sins of all mankind, but there are a couple of verses that bring in the word "many" instead of "all.... •Jesus died for 'many.' ◦Matt. 26:28, "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." •Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); There are other scriptures that support not "all" will know salvation. This website seems to argue both sides of the coin. carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/did-jesus-die-everyone-my-calvinist-friends-say-noIn the passage you mention, the sheep are those that have a heart for the poor, and the goats are those that have a heart only for themselves. It's very simple. Some interpreters like to synthesize various verses together. So they combine sheep and goats with those who are born again and those who are not. But Jesus isn't talking here about those who are born again. We make these sharp black and white divisions: born again, sheep, wheat, fruit, faith, saved versus worldly, goats, tares, no fruit, lost heart, not saved. You are in column A or in column B. I think that's an unrealistic way to look at things. You might be "born again", but you might back slide, and if you're not doing anything for the poor, however defined, being born again has come to naught. Often Jesus' warnings applied to the Jews who thought they were God's anointed, and in the same way these verses (Matthew 25) really apply to Christians, who have an entitlement complex concerning heaven. Incidentally, predestined = entitlement complex regarding heaven. It's funny that you should link to CARM, as I ran across the following the other day. If half of what this man claims is true about CARM, it's not too good. www.tentmaker.org/articles/matt_slick_doubletalk.htmlI disagree because Jesus was not so Overly taken with the poor or he would have sided in with JI's comment that the alabaster box of costly ointment should have been sold and the proceeds given to the poor. And yes, we read that Paul said that pure and undefiled religion is visiting the "widows and the orphans...." Now not all widows are Poor in earthly things.,....their husbands having left them well planned for. If the "faith" that Jesus has also said he wondered if he would find it when he returned, is the very most important thing whether someone is rich or poor, active in charitable deeds or not. And yes, it is also like Jesus told the Pharisee host that the one who has been forgiven the most will love the forgiver the most. Faith in what Jesus Christ sacrifice is enough to redeem us from our sins, is the most important thing as far as salvation is concerned. Now again, reading in Romans we read about Predestination and that salvation is of the Jews, which Jesus also told the Samaritan woman at the well. But at the same time, he also pointed out to her that that will not count as much as "worshipping God in spirit and in truth" and it is not going to be in this temple, that synagogue, that church, or that funeral home or that homeless station, etc.....but worshipping God in spirit and in truth comes out of the heart of man and all of that is because of the faith we have in Jesus Christ's sacrifice is enough to redeem us regardless of how many sins we may have had or will have! As to "doubletalking" I think some of the workers have that down pat....
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 11, 2014 9:28:12 GMT -5
What Hat ~ Great points! It may be implied, according to some, but it's still not clear in this story found in Luke 16. Also, why does Revelation 20:5, 11-15 speak of the dead not being restored to life again until after Jesus' Second Coming and the 1,000 year millennial reign of Christ, when this final Great White Throne Judgment occurs in Heaven. If people are already in torment in Hades or Hell for their sins, what's the purpose of the final judgment anyway? Luke 16 seemingly implies they were immediately judged by God after their death and not on the final Judgment Day, which Jesus also speaks about in the gospels? That's why I find it hard to visual Luke 16 in any other light other than as a parable spoken by Jesus to make a point, as Clearday mentioned earlier?
These two different accounts of the Judgment Day found in Luke 16 and Revelation 20 just don't agree in content. There's a major discrepancy here because Luke 16 implies immediate judgment after death and Revelation 20 implies final judgment at the end of this world, as we know it. Then, Heaven becomes the permanent home of the spared believers; whereas, the unbelievers are destroyed along with the devil and his fallen angels and Hades and death itself are thrown in the "lake of fire" to be destroyed. That's the part which doesn't make sense to me ~ more like cognitive dissonance sitting in whenever I try to fathom it?
I personally don't offer or try to offer a replacement theology for the various narratives incorporating the concept of "eternal Hell". I believe Jesus often spoke in hyperbolic fashion using Jewish constructs to show his anger about certain subjects. Therefore the reference to Moses instead of to himself in the Lazarus story. It would appear that there is punishment for a time after death, and after that time God will render judgement. Why this happens after a period in Hell or Purgatory or whatever it is called isn't clear to me, but in addition to the descriptions you mention we also have 1 Cor 3:11 - 15, so there could well be some kind of purification involved before the judgement. I believe in being born again to the Spirit, and that may start the purification process here instead of in the afterlife, but I don't believe being "born again" is a "Road to Damascus" event that leads to certain salvation. But regarding Hell and what it is like and what it is for, it's all conjecture. I don't think anyone who hasn't been there and back can speak with any authority on the subject, although some believe they can. We're given to know a little about the subject, and that is all. Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Again, What! If we don't have the component faith which is a gift from God, then Jesus' sacrifice is not going to mean one whit to us. Same as anyone else who has sought to redeem their brothers...it would be putting Jesus Christ on that same level as other brothers. But instead as He who gave himself for us has to have someone who believes that that really happened and that that sacrifice was "enough" to cleanse us from our multitude of sins! So regardless of who may go to that purgatory, if they don't receive that "gift of faith" from God, then that period of time you're speaking to isn't going to help them at all. And reverse that comes the Judgment Day when each person faces a just judge who will know our deeds out of the books of deeds and will reward that person standing before Him for whatever Good deeds he/she may have done...but that still does not speak to "eternal life", that speaks of whoever is NOT in the Lamb's book of Life will be in danger of the second death...which, yes, is the pit of ever burning fire! I think our main thrust in all of this is NOT to feel we can make God "indebted" to us by our deeds to be able to demand eternal life from him.....but seek to have increased faith and stronger faith that it not be weakened when tested by fire. Faith and love and in that order is the components in human hearts and minds that will open them up to eternal life. No deeds can do that, lest any man should boast that they made God give them eternal life with their wondrous deeds. I know of some people and I should say a considerable number of people who bend over backwards in this city to do charitable deeds, and their thing in doing so is to make themselves look great and wondrous in the eyes of their fellow man...however some of them have NO love of God in their hearts much less their minds...they don't mind running over someone else in doing their charitable deeds because of their need for that approving public eye. I have to wonder if God will not consider that such people have already had their "reward" for their charitable deeds and if their names are not found in the Lamb's book of Life, then He will say goodbye, I know you not!
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Post by What Hat on Apr 11, 2014 18:00:07 GMT -5
In the passage you mention, the sheep are those that have a heart for the poor, and the goats are those that have a heart only for themselves. It's very simple. Some interpreters like to synthesize various verses together. So they combine sheep and goats with those who are born again and those who are not. But Jesus isn't talking here about those who are born again. We make these sharp black and white divisions: born again, sheep, wheat, fruit, faith, saved versus worldly, goats, tares, no fruit, lost heart, not saved. You are in column A or in column B. I think that's an unrealistic way to look at things. You might be "born again", but you might back slide, and if you're not doing anything for the poor, however defined, being born again has come to naught. Often Jesus' warnings applied to the Jews who thought they were God's anointed, and in the same way these verses (Matthew 25) really apply to Christians, who have an entitlement complex concerning heaven. Incidentally, predestined = entitlement complex regarding heaven. It's funny that you should link to CARM, as I ran across the following the other day. If half of what this man claims is true about CARM, it's not too good. www.tentmaker.org/articles/matt_slick_doubletalk.htmlI disagree because Jesus was not so Overly taken with the poor or he would have sided in with JI's comment that the alabaster box of costly ointment should have been sold and the proceeds given to the poor. And yes, we read that Paul said that pure and undefiled religion is visiting the "widows and the orphans...." Now not all widows are Poor in earthly things.,....their husbands having left them well planned for. If the "faith" that Jesus has also said he wondered if he would find it when he returned, is the very most important thing whether someone is rich or poor, active in charitable deeds or not. And yes, it is also like Jesus told the Pharisee host that the one who has been forgiven the most will love the forgiver the most. Faith in what Jesus Christ sacrifice is enough to redeem us from our sins, is the most important thing as far as salvation is concerned. Now again, reading in Romans we read about Predestination and that salvation is of the Jews, which Jesus also told the Samaritan woman at the well. But at the same time, he also pointed out to her that that will not count as much as "worshipping God in spirit and in truth" and it is not going to be in this temple, that synagogue, that church, or that funeral home or that homeless station, etc.....but worshipping God in spirit and in truth comes out of the heart of man and all of that is because of the faith we have in Jesus Christ's sacrifice is enough to redeem us regardless of how many sins we may have had or will have! As to "doubletalking" I think some of the workers have that down pat.... Let's look at the situations in which Jesus warned about hell fire, and why. Matthew 25. Ignoring the plight of the poor. Lazarus story. Ignoring the sick man at his gate. Matthew 5:22. Angry with his brother without a cause. Matthew 5:29. Lusting after a woman. Matthew 11:23. Not repenting and thinking one has done "mighty works". Matthew 23:33. Pretending to be a good person, but not cleansing within. All of these involve action of a kind. Don't Jesus' words lend more support to the idea that every work will be brought into judgement, rather than the issue of faith, of whether or not someone believes?
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Post by What Hat on Apr 11, 2014 18:20:00 GMT -5
I personally don't offer or try to offer a replacement theology for the various narratives incorporating the concept of "eternal Hell". I believe Jesus often spoke in hyperbolic fashion using Jewish constructs to show his anger about certain subjects. Therefore the reference to Moses instead of to himself in the Lazarus story. It would appear that there is punishment for a time after death, and after that time God will render judgement. Why this happens after a period in Hell or Purgatory or whatever it is called isn't clear to me, but in addition to the descriptions you mention we also have 1 Cor 3:11 - 15, so there could well be some kind of purification involved before the judgement. I believe in being born again to the Spirit, and that may start the purification process here instead of in the afterlife, but I don't believe being "born again" is a "Road to Damascus" event that leads to certain salvation. But regarding Hell and what it is like and what it is for, it's all conjecture. I don't think anyone who hasn't been there and back can speak with any authority on the subject, although some believe they can. We're given to know a little about the subject, and that is all. Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Again, What! If we don't have the component faith which is a gift from God, then Jesus' sacrifice is not going to mean one whit to us. Same as anyone else who has sought to redeem their brothers...it would be putting Jesus Christ on that same level as other brothers. But instead as He who gave himself for us has to have someone who believes that that really happened and that that sacrifice was "enough" to cleanse us from our multitude of sins! So regardless of who may go to that purgatory, if they don't receive that "gift of faith" from God, then that period of time you're speaking to isn't going to help them at all. And reverse that comes the Judgment Day when each person faces a just judge who will know our deeds out of the books of deeds and will reward that person standing before Him for whatever Good deeds he/she may have done...but that still does not speak to "eternal life", that speaks of whoever is NOT in the Lamb's book of Life will be in danger of the second death...which, yes, is the pit of ever burning fire! I think our main thrust in all of this is NOT to feel we can make God "indebted" to us by our deeds to be able to demand eternal life from him.....but seek to have increased faith and stronger faith that it not be weakened when tested by fire. Faith and love and in that order is the components in human hearts and minds that will open them up to eternal life. No deeds can do that, lest any man should boast that they made God give them eternal life with their wondrous deeds. I know of some people and I should say a considerable number of people who bend over backwards in this city to do charitable deeds, and their thing in doing so is to make themselves look great and wondrous in the eyes of their fellow man...however some of them have NO love of God in their hearts much less their minds...they don't mind running over someone else in doing their charitable deeds because of their need for that approving public eye. I have to wonder if God will not consider that such people have already had their "reward" for their charitable deeds and if their names are not found in the Lamb's book of Life, then He will say goodbye, I know you not! The Bible makes clear we can't earn our salvation. But that doesn't mean there isn't an expectation on the part of God for how we live our lives. What is the expectation? I think it's about commitment. It's not even about "trying our best" which becomes "knocking ourselves out". That's a rut some people can get in to. Yes, I believe faith is essential, but faith in what? Is belief in Jesus life and sacrifice on the Cross essential for salvation and living a life committed to love or charity a consequence. Or is living a life committed to love or charity the essence of salvation, and our knowledge of Jesus and his sacrifice just a way of understanding and committing to a life so lived. And what is salvation? Is it a win/ lose scenario where most are relegated to an eternity in tormenting flames while a select few live in a state known as heaven. Or is it simply a commitment to the capacity to love, an act of faith, a restoration with a loving God, which some will understand in lifetime, but some won't understand until after, and who will endure some torment for having wasted their lives, but for whom God will have sympathy and restore to himself what he can? Is there not in the most unrepentant and hardened person some inner desire to be reconciled to an all loving and all powerful God once they understand who He is? How easily we condemn to Hell those who we think of as "lost souls" on the most specious of terms, and I don't believe that God gives up so easily. 99 out of 100 will make it after Hell fire and the judgement and then God will seek to reconcile to himself the one that has not made it.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 14, 2014 10:01:41 GMT -5
Again, What! If we don't have the component faith which is a gift from God, then Jesus' sacrifice is not going to mean one whit to us. Same as anyone else who has sought to redeem their brothers...it would be putting Jesus Christ on that same level as other brothers. But instead as He who gave himself for us has to have someone who believes that that really happened and that that sacrifice was "enough" to cleanse us from our multitude of sins! So regardless of who may go to that purgatory, if they don't receive that "gift of faith" from God, then that period of time you're speaking to isn't going to help them at all. And reverse that comes the Judgment Day when each person faces a just judge who will know our deeds out of the books of deeds and will reward that person standing before Him for whatever Good deeds he/she may have done...but that still does not speak to "eternal life", that speaks of whoever is NOT in the Lamb's book of Life will be in danger of the second death...which, yes, is the pit of ever burning fire! I think our main thrust in all of this is NOT to feel we can make God "indebted" to us by our deeds to be able to demand eternal life from him.....but seek to have increased faith and stronger faith that it not be weakened when tested by fire. Faith and love and in that order is the components in human hearts and minds that will open them up to eternal life. No deeds can do that, lest any man should boast that they made God give them eternal life with their wondrous deeds. I know of some people and I should say a considerable number of people who bend over backwards in this city to do charitable deeds, and their thing in doing so is to make themselves look great and wondrous in the eyes of their fellow man...however some of them have NO love of God in their hearts much less their minds...they don't mind running over someone else in doing their charitable deeds because of their need for that approving public eye. I have to wonder if God will not consider that such people have already had their "reward" for their charitable deeds and if their names are not found in the Lamb's book of Life, then He will say goodbye, I know you not! The Bible makes clear we can't earn our salvation. But that doesn't mean there isn't an expectation on the part of God for how we live our lives. What is the expectation? I think it's about commitment. It's not even about "trying our best" which becomes "knocking ourselves out". That's a rut some people can get in to. Yes, I believe faith is essential, but faith in what? Is belief in Jesus life and sacrifice on the Cross essential for salvation and living a life committed to love or charity a consequence. Or is living a life committed to love or charity the essence of salvation, and our knowledge of Jesus and his sacrifice just a way of understanding and committing to a life so lived. And what is salvation? Is it a win/ lose scenario where most are relegated to an eternity in tormenting flames while a select few live in a state known as heaven. Or is it simply a commitment to the capacity to love, an act of faith, a restoration with a loving God, which some will understand in lifetime, but some won't understand until after, and who will endure some torment for having wasted their lives, but for whom God will have sympathy and restore to himself what he can? Is there not in the most unrepentant and hardened person some inner desire to be reconciled to an all loving and all powerful God once they understand who He is? How easily we condemn to Hell those who we think of as "lost souls" on the most specious of terms, and I don't believe that God gives up so easily. 99 out of 100 will make it after Hell fire and the judgement and then God will seek to reconcile to himself the one that has not made it. I don't feel that there is one "judgmental" thing I've mentioned in the "faith" issue that could be interpreted to be judging someone to a lost eternity. First the faith is a gift from God...so this is where He is seeking to "reconcile" someone to Himself.....through faith.....as Jesus taught the person who feels they've had the most sins forgiven will be the most loving person not only toward the "forgiver" but in life, period! And I did mention that faith is the first thing to come for salvation but love enters into it and as I said above...simply because a person is grateful for that forgiveness and that "gift of faith, that gift of life eternal" that love is what abounds in that soul's life while on earth. Jesus told his Apostles to do what he had told them to do when he gave them the last commission...to do "all" that I have told you" I think were his words. So naturally, it should come upon us to have "pity" or "compassion for those who have less then ourselves, those who are suffering things we have no idea about! Also having compassion for the widows and orphans perhaps was a more necessary thing then it is of today, though we have ways of taking care of those people more these days...but in those days a widow who was a widow "indeed" had NO male relative who would see to her daily needs, so it became a necessity that those who professed love for Jesus would profess love for those who had nothing or no one to turn to. Women alone in those days often had to resort to begging or just dying with starvation or cold......orphans learned criminality right quick because they had no one to see they had 3 squares a day and no roof over their head. Those conditions have changed some in these days, though there are still some who suffer things we have no knowledge of. What is "eternal life" about? It is about the "regeneration".....the regeneration of what? Likely the new heaven and earth, eh? So is God going to want someone on the new heaven and earth who never turned to him even on their deathbed? I wouldn't think so. There's been people that never "called on God" from time immemorial.....Adam and Eve knew God quite well....they even walked in the garden with him, then even talked with him...do you not think they'd at least had given their children the benefit of that knowledge? I suppose maybe being tossed out of that garden due to their own disobedience could have made them angry and bitter, it doesn't say...but we do see that one of their sons became a murderer...so apparently "bad" things had been learned somehow in that family! I don't begin to know what God will do with everyone that has not had the "gift of faith" from God. Also the predestination God is clear on, but I'm not certain other then I have to feel that the gift of faith God gives is in accordance to this predestination issue He knows about. So if there is a predestination, then surely that indicates that NOT all will know eternal life....but God knows who will do what and when, IMO...so He can very well predestinate whoever He so well please! It's all in HIs hands.....but I don't think He's going to reconcile everybody, if that were the case, then Jesus Christ would not have had to die for man's sins! God would have let us all just have our field day on earth doing whatsoever we well please and Katy bar the door but we all will live eternally. NO that doesn't make sense, What! I don't want to waste what Jesus has done for us, do you? So we can't expect everyone to make it eternally.....we know for certainty that the devil and all the false prophets, who are people by the way, will be thrust into the fiery pit....and anyone who follows them, so it says! There is a verse I read in the book of JOhn's Gospel that speaks of those who are "resurrected unto eternal life and those who are resurrected unto eternal damnation!" Seems a bit strong, eh? John 5: 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. And yes, this speaks about those who have done good or evil......so faith and love come hand in hand and are gifts from heaven less any man should boast, then the deeds are as Jesus spoke to his Apostles to do as he had told them. Otherwords the good deeds and the principles of those good deeds are to be taught, eh?
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Post by rational on Apr 14, 2014 10:21:54 GMT -5
The Bible makes clear we can't earn our salvation. There certainly is a lot of discussion and ambiguity about something that the bible makes clear!
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Post by What Hat on Apr 14, 2014 12:26:56 GMT -5
The Bible makes clear we can't earn our salvation. There certainly is a lot of discussion and ambiguity about something that the bible makes clear! I think I was starting the conversation on a point of universal agreement. From there I go downhill quite rapidly.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 14, 2014 12:40:49 GMT -5
The Bible makes clear we can't earn our salvation. But that doesn't mean there isn't an expectation on the part of God for how we live our lives. What is the expectation? I think it's about commitment. It's not even about "trying our best" which becomes "knocking ourselves out". That's a rut some people can get in to. Yes, I believe faith is essential, but faith in what? Is belief in Jesus life and sacrifice on the Cross essential for salvation and living a life committed to love or charity a consequence. Or is living a life committed to love or charity the essence of salvation, and our knowledge of Jesus and his sacrifice just a way of understanding and committing to a life so lived. And what is salvation? Is it a win/ lose scenario where most are relegated to an eternity in tormenting flames while a select few live in a state known as heaven. Or is it simply a commitment to the capacity to love, an act of faith, a restoration with a loving God, which some will understand in lifetime, but some won't understand until after, and who will endure some torment for having wasted their lives, but for whom God will have sympathy and restore to himself what he can? Is there not in the most unrepentant and hardened person some inner desire to be reconciled to an all loving and all powerful God once they understand who He is? How easily we condemn to Hell those who we think of as "lost souls" on the most specious of terms, and I don't believe that God gives up so easily. 99 out of 100 will make it after Hell fire and the judgement and then God will seek to reconcile to himself the one that has not made it. I don't feel that there is one "judgmental" thing I've mentioned in the "faith" issue that could be interpreted to be judging someone to a lost eternity. First the faith is a gift from God...so this is where He is seeking to "reconcile" someone to Himself.....through faith.....as Jesus taught the person who feels they've had the most sins forgiven will be the most loving person not only toward the "forgiver" but in life, period! And I did mention that faith is the first thing to come for salvation but love enters into it and as I said above...simply because a person is grateful for that forgiveness and that "gift of faith, that gift of life eternal" that love is what abounds in that soul's life while on earth. Jesus told his Apostles to do what he had told them to do when he gave them the last commission...to do "all" that I have told you" I think were his words. So naturally, it should come upon us to have "pity" or "compassion for those who have less then ourselves, those who are suffering things we have no idea about! Also having compassion for the widows and orphans perhaps was a more necessary thing then it is of today, though we have ways of taking care of those people more these days...but in those days a widow who was a widow "indeed" had NO male relative who would see to her daily needs, so it became a necessity that those who professed love for Jesus would profess love for those who had nothing or no one to turn to. Women alone in those days often had to resort to begging or just dying with starvation or cold......orphans learned criminality right quick because they had no one to see they had 3 squares a day and no roof over their head. Those conditions have changed some in these days, though there are still some who suffer things we have no knowledge of. What is "eternal life" about? It is about the "regeneration".....the regeneration of what? Likely the new heaven and earth, eh? So is God going to want someone on the new heaven and earth who never turned to him even on their deathbed? I wouldn't think so. There's been people that never "called on God" from time immemorial.....Adam and Eve knew God quite well....they even walked in the garden with him, then even talked with him...do you not think they'd at least had given their children the benefit of that knowledge? I suppose maybe being tossed out of that garden due to their own disobedience could have made them angry and bitter, it doesn't say...but we do see that one of their sons became a murderer...so apparently "bad" things had been learned somehow in that family! I don't begin to know what God will do with everyone that has not had the "gift of faith" from God. Also the predestination God is clear on, but I'm not certain other then I have to feel that the gift of faith God gives is in accordance to this predestination issue He knows about. So if there is a predestination, then surely that indicates that NOT all will know eternal life....but God knows who will do what and when, IMO...so He can very well predestinate whoever He so well please! It's all in HIs hands.....but I don't think He's going to reconcile everybody, if that were the case, then Jesus Christ would not have had to die for man's sins! God would have let us all just have our field day on earth doing whatsoever we well please and Katy bar the door but we all will live eternally. NO that doesn't make sense, What! I don't want to waste what Jesus has done for us, do you? So we can't expect everyone to make it eternally.....we know for certainty that the devil and all the false prophets, who are people by the way, will be thrust into the fiery pit....and anyone who follows them, so it says! There is a verse I read in the book of JOhn's Gospel that speaks of those who are "resurrected unto eternal life and those who are resurrected unto eternal damnation!" Seems a bit strong, eh? John 5: 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. And yes, this speaks about those who have done good or evil......so faith and love come hand in hand and are gifts from heaven less any man should boast, then the deeds are as Jesus spoke to his Apostles to do as he had told them. Otherwords the good deeds and the principles of those good deeds are to be taught, eh? 1) If you believe in eternal Hell then you're judgemental. There is no way around it. Perhaps you refrain from judging which individuals go to Hell and who will not, and that is commendable. But certainly you do think some people are going there, and that involves "criteria", and those criteria are a form of judgement. Now, some people will say, but those are God's criteria, not mine, God judges, and we are just telling it like it is. That might play well with birds of a feather, but does not play well with non-believers. They see NO difference between what God says, and your personal opinion. What it comes down to for me is that the criteria set forth by many Christians just don't line up with Scripture at all, and so my conclusion is that they're just extemporizing on their or their tribe's personal opinions when they tell you who is saved and who is not. It just comes down to tribalism with God working with your tribe. I don't mean you personally, Sharon, I simply mean, many Christians today. 2) Would you begrudge "those having a field day and doing whatever they please" getting into heaven without going through whatever kind of door one church or another has put there? I don't think it would bother me to be honest. It would bother me a lot more if they would burn in Hell for eternity. I'm happy with what Jesus has given me in this life, and I don't need their misery to validate my feeling of well-being. But let's face it, a lot of Christians are on a treadmill of pointless duty, running around going to church and this and that committee and so on, and they're not happy doing what they're doing, and feel they should get a "reward" for it. Yes, there is cross to bear, and there is sacrifice, but if there is, it should be for a great and noble cause, and induce willingness. A lot of so-called Christian service is hamster-wheel stuff. (Again, I'm not saying that is you.)
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 15, 2014 9:06:44 GMT -5
I don't feel that there is one "judgmental" thing I've mentioned in the "faith" issue that could be interpreted to be judging someone to a lost eternity. First the faith is a gift from God...so this is where He is seeking to "reconcile" someone to Himself.....through faith.....as Jesus taught the person who feels they've had the most sins forgiven will be the most loving person not only toward the "forgiver" but in life, period! And I did mention that faith is the first thing to come for salvation but love enters into it and as I said above...simply because a person is grateful for that forgiveness and that "gift of faith, that gift of life eternal" that love is what abounds in that soul's life while on earth. Jesus told his Apostles to do what he had told them to do when he gave them the last commission...to do "all" that I have told you" I think were his words. So naturally, it should come upon us to have "pity" or "compassion for those who have less then ourselves, those who are suffering things we have no idea about! Also having compassion for the widows and orphans perhaps was a more necessary thing then it is of today, though we have ways of taking care of those people more these days...but in those days a widow who was a widow "indeed" had NO male relative who would see to her daily needs, so it became a necessity that those who professed love for Jesus would profess love for those who had nothing or no one to turn to. Women alone in those days often had to resort to begging or just dying with starvation or cold......orphans learned criminality right quick because they had no one to see they had 3 squares a day and no roof over their head. Those conditions have changed some in these days, though there are still some who suffer things we have no knowledge of. What is "eternal life" about? It is about the "regeneration".....the regeneration of what? Likely the new heaven and earth, eh? So is God going to want someone on the new heaven and earth who never turned to him even on their deathbed? I wouldn't think so. There's been people that never "called on God" from time immemorial.....Adam and Eve knew God quite well....they even walked in the garden with him, then even talked with him...do you not think they'd at least had given their children the benefit of that knowledge? I suppose maybe being tossed out of that garden due to their own disobedience could have made them angry and bitter, it doesn't say...but we do see that one of their sons became a murderer...so apparently "bad" things had been learned somehow in that family! I don't begin to know what God will do with everyone that has not had the "gift of faith" from God. Also the predestination God is clear on, but I'm not certain other then I have to feel that the gift of faith God gives is in accordance to this predestination issue He knows about. So if there is a predestination, then surely that indicates that NOT all will know eternal life....but God knows who will do what and when, IMO...so He can very well predestinate whoever He so well please! It's all in HIs hands.....but I don't think He's going to reconcile everybody, if that were the case, then Jesus Christ would not have had to die for man's sins! God would have let us all just have our field day on earth doing whatsoever we well please and Katy bar the door but we all will live eternally. NO that doesn't make sense, What! I don't want to waste what Jesus has done for us, do you? So we can't expect everyone to make it eternally.....we know for certainty that the devil and all the false prophets, who are people by the way, will be thrust into the fiery pit....and anyone who follows them, so it says! There is a verse I read in the book of JOhn's Gospel that speaks of those who are "resurrected unto eternal life and those who are resurrected unto eternal damnation!" Seems a bit strong, eh? John 5: 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. And yes, this speaks about those who have done good or evil......so faith and love come hand in hand and are gifts from heaven less any man should boast, then the deeds are as Jesus spoke to his Apostles to do as he had told them. Otherwords the good deeds and the principles of those good deeds are to be taught, eh? 1) If you believe in eternal Hell then you're judgemental. There is no way around it. Perhaps you refrain from judging which individuals go to Hell and who will not, and that is commendable. But certainly you do think some people are going there, and that involves "criteria", and those criteria are a form of judgement. Now, some people will say, but those are God's criteria, not mine, God judges, and we are just telling it like it is. That might play well with birds of a feather, but does not play well with non-believers. They see NO difference between what God says, and your personal opinion. What it comes down to for me is that the criteria set forth by many Christians just don't line up with Scripture at all, and so my conclusion is that they're just extemporizing on their or their tribe's personal opinions when they tell you who is saved and who is not. It just comes down to tribalism with God working with your tribe. I don't mean you personally, Sharon, I simply mean, many Christians today. 2) Would you begrudge "those having a field day and doing whatever they please" getting into heaven without going through whatever kind of door one church or another has put there? I don't think it would bother me to be honest. It would bother me a lot more if they would burn in Hell for eternity. I'm happy with what Jesus has given me in this life, and I don't need their misery to validate my feeling of well-being. But let's face it, a lot of Christians are on a treadmill of pointless duty, running around going to church and this and that committee and so on, and they're not happy doing what they're doing, and feel they should get a "reward" for it. Yes, there is cross to bear, and there is sacrifice, but if there is, it should be for a great and noble cause, and induce willingness. A lot of so-called Christian service is hamster-wheel stuff. (Again, I'm not saying that is you.) What! I don't cotton to the church-going angle for salvation's means. I see the church going as perhaps the way a few learn about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Let's say for example, I have an elderly neighbor who goes to church any time the doors of that church are open for whatever service or reason....yet when it comes down to knowing what the scriptures really say about Jesus, et al, she frankly told me that "I haven't read the bible much." So here we have an elderly lady who is depending on that "church" for her salvation! I question that....but then I also believe we are judged according to what we know and understand...but yet again, we can ask for better understanding and knowledge.! I believe that salvation ius all about a person's individual intimate relationship with our God and SAviour, Jesus Christ! And that doesn't say that I'm for or against typical Christian churches nor am I agnostic nor atheist. The "individual intimate relationship with Jesus" is what counts above all things. Also to think ALL people will be "reconciled to eternal life, is putting Jesus' sacrifice in vaint! And I feel for certain MY SAviour DID NOT die in vain! To look at Jesus' sacrifice for only what it gives us in this life brings a short-sightedness to our life on earth....just to enjoy the "freedom" from our sin is not enough in my books to declare I have "eternal life". It sure is nice to have that freedom from sin, but what should freedom of sin mean? It means that God looks at us through the righteousness of His Son! The judgment that is important is the discernment type so that an individual can be protecting one's own soul!
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Post by What Hat on Apr 15, 2014 18:36:12 GMT -5
1) If you believe in eternal Hell then you're judgemental. There is no way around it. Perhaps you refrain from judging which individuals go to Hell and who will not, and that is commendable. But certainly you do think some people are going there, and that involves "criteria", and those criteria are a form of judgement. Now, some people will say, but those are God's criteria, not mine, God judges, and we are just telling it like it is. That might play well with birds of a feather, but does not play well with non-believers. They see NO difference between what God says, and your personal opinion. What it comes down to for me is that the criteria set forth by many Christians just don't line up with Scripture at all, and so my conclusion is that they're just extemporizing on their or their tribe's personal opinions when they tell you who is saved and who is not. It just comes down to tribalism with God working with your tribe. I don't mean you personally, Sharon, I simply mean, many Christians today. 2) Would you begrudge "those having a field day and doing whatever they please" getting into heaven without going through whatever kind of door one church or another has put there? I don't think it would bother me to be honest. It would bother me a lot more if they would burn in Hell for eternity. I'm happy with what Jesus has given me in this life, and I don't need their misery to validate my feeling of well-being. But let's face it, a lot of Christians are on a treadmill of pointless duty, running around going to church and this and that committee and so on, and they're not happy doing what they're doing, and feel they should get a "reward" for it. Yes, there is cross to bear, and there is sacrifice, but if there is, it should be for a great and noble cause, and induce willingness. A lot of so-called Christian service is hamster-wheel stuff. (Again, I'm not saying that is you.) What! I don't cotton to the church-going angle for salvation's means. I see the church going as perhaps the way a few learn about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Let's say for example, I have an elderly neighbor who goes to church any time the doors of that church are open for whatever service or reason....yet when it comes down to knowing what the scriptures really say about Jesus, et al, she frankly told me that "I haven't read the bible much." So here we have an elderly lady who is depending on that "church" for her salvation! I question that....but then I also believe we are judged according to what we know and understand...but yet again, we can ask for better understanding and knowledge.! I believe that salvation ius all about a person's individual intimate relationship with our God and SAviour, Jesus Christ! And that doesn't say that I'm for or against typical Christian churches nor am I agnostic nor atheist. The "individual intimate relationship with Jesus" is what counts above all things. Also to think ALL people will be "reconciled to eternal life, is putting Jesus' sacrifice in vaint! And I feel for certain MY SAviour DID NOT die in vain! To look at Jesus' sacrifice for only what it gives us in this life brings a short-sightedness to our life on earth....just to enjoy the "freedom" from our sin is not enough in my books to declare I have "eternal life". It sure is nice to have that freedom from sin, but what should freedom of sin mean? It means that God looks at us through the righteousness of His Son! The judgment that is important is the discernment type so that an individual can be protecting one's own soul! At this point I find so little to disagree with, I won't say too much. I think I've more or less covered my feelings on the subject.
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