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Post by faune on Apr 6, 2014 15:00:14 GMT -5
A direct and equal comparison with the JW's is neither fair nor accurate. I don't know of a time when there was ever a common complete cut-off of family leaving the meetings (I am sure there were some cases but I don't personally know of any offhand) such as the JW's have practiced or the RCC use to practice when someone went Protestant. Yes, there was a "distancing" to varying degrees depending on the family. Today, families with kids who have left are quite involved with their unprofessing kids....I see it all the time. The distance that 2x2's feel toward their non-professing family is similar to what Christians feel about Muslims...... only not that bad. I understand that a cut-off of family occurred with Truitt & Walter Oyler's extended Family in Montana. And that numerous families were exed because they would not renounce the beliefs and teachings of Starkweather & Oyler.
The 1990 Montana purge led by Everett Swanson excommunicated all the F&Ws who would not renounce the beliefs of Truitt Oyler and John Starkweather.
After a number of warnings, Truitt Oyler was told to step aside from the ministry for preaching “divisive doctrine” (also referred to as “false doctrine”). Two other brother workers also preached this same doctrine and they were also put out of the work, John Starkweather in Texas and Walter Oyler, Truitt’s brother.
Everett Swanson toured Montana and held gospel meetings where he preached a view that countered the “false doctrine” of others, and at the end of the meeting, he asked the friends who agreed with him to stand. Those who didn’t stand to their feet were disfellowshipped. This method of cleansing the church of said “false doctrine” caused much havoc in the church and grief in families. Families and churches were split apart.
"Truitt's Doctrine", written by Truitt: There were never ungodly lusts, desires or passions in Jesus and never a spirit unacceptable with God. Jesus was in the likeness of Adams creation except he was conceived of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit was on him from birth. The power of the Holy Spirit prevented him from becoming a sinner. Jesus was pure in heart and mind always. It would have been necessary for Jesus to have lost the Holy Spirit and its power to have sinned. Jesus paid the redemption price in full. The death he died was in fulfillment of all the curse that the sinner was under.
And then things blew up in Alaska too, with substantial carnage over the same issue.
A Friend residing in AK at the time wrote: “The state was in an uproar. The elders, having received a cold informal letter stating the removal of Bob and Truitt, did not appreciate not only the spirit of the letter, but that their input had not been considered. Elders from all over the state gathered for a meeting with the likes of Jack Price, Sydney Holt, Willis Propp, Paul Sharp, Eldon Tenniswood and others…There were many public meetings, emotions ran high, and true colors were revealed. The ugliness of it all was a real shock to many and impossible to ignore. Almost over night we lost respect for workers. Even workers we were close to put the church before truth through honest communication. In the minds of some workers as well as some friends, for the sake of holding the church together, ‘lives had to be sacrificed.’ It was organized religion at its worst.
“All Alaska workers were under suspicion at that time and within a year dispersed to other states. Judy Dudley was sent to Alberta where, after a question/answer grilling from Willis Propp, she was put out of the work. Five years later she married Truitt Oyler.” Others were sent home to "rest." One never returned to the work (her choice). Several were sent to Washington state. One was sent to Colorado.
”Things did not quiet down very soon. A year later there were still problems between many of the friends and workers. The powers that be brought in more VIP in the church to win the people over. That's when Leslie White came to Alaska. Initially many viewed him as the Great White Hope, the one who could help make things right. We quickly saw how weak and ineffective he really was.”
”Many of the friends lost their meetings and other privileges. In time division among the friends came about. A "troublemakers" meeting was created in Anchorage for some who had openly protested how things had been conducted. The only reason people were not "put out" was because the numbers were too great and there were some very influential friends with strong connections in other states. To put out everyone that did not support the behavior of the workers would have had a devastating and far reaching domino effect. The whole Alaska experience was the beginning of many of the friends re-examining just what it was they were a part of.
Cherie ~ I believe your shared accounting above of what came down in Alaska back in 1990 when two workers deviated even slightly from the acceptable "gospel message" approved by the overseers? In other words, if you don't strictly "walk the walk and talk the talk" in the worker's world, you just might just end up "collateral damage" in the end? When stuff like this hits the fan, a lot of people get hurt, but the hierarchy doesn't seem to care how many bodies are sacrificed to maintain their special image of the fellowship? Your example above, along with the mass ex-communications in Alberta, Canada that followed in 1999 over "policy changes and overseer directives" speaks "loud and clear" for all of us to take warning! I highlighted in Blue above the paragraphs that caught my eye as I read through your shared accounting and found it most shocking!
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Post by irvinegrey on Apr 6, 2014 15:27:24 GMT -5
A direct and equal comparison with the JW's is neither fair nor accurate. I don't know of a time when there was ever a common complete cut-off of family leaving the meetings (I am sure there were some cases but I don't personally know of any offhand) such as the JW's have practiced or the RCC use to practice when someone went Protestant. Yes, there was a "distancing" to varying degrees depending on the family. Today, families with kids who have left are quite involved with their unprofessing kids....I see it all the time. The distance that 2x2's feel toward their non-professing family is similar to what Christians feel about Muslims...... only not that bad. I resent your generalisation that Christians hate Muslims. This may be true of those who are nominally Christian but truly born again believers whose lives have been transformed by grace and are redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus should have no part in the hatred of others regardless of their class or creed. I speak personally of my teaching missions every three months to the coast in Kenya and I can honestly say that some of my best friends there are Muslims. We freely discuss each other’s faith and they understand that I believe the Bible teaches that there is only one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ. ‘[6] Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me,’ (John 14:6 ESV). The apostle Paul outlines the mark of a Christian when writing to the church at Rome and I am afraid that where there is an absence of these marks then one can legitimately question if one’s Christian profession is for real. [9] Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. [10] Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honour. [11] Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. [12] Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. [13] Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. [14] Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. [15] Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. [16] Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. [17] Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honourable in the sight of all. [18] If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. [19] Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” [20] To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” [21] Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good, (Romans 12:9-21 ESV)
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Post by déjà vu on Apr 6, 2014 15:33:13 GMT -5
from this post it looks as if Truitt's Doctrine", was within the pail of orthodoxy
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 15:34:07 GMT -5
A direct and equal comparison with the JW's is neither fair nor accurate. I don't know of a time when there was ever a common complete cut-off of family leaving the meetings (I am sure there were some cases but I don't personally know of any offhand) such as the JW's have practiced or the RCC use to practice when someone went Protestant. Yes, there was a "distancing" to varying degrees depending on the family. Today, families with kids who have left are quite involved with their unprofessing kids....I see it all the time. The distance that 2x2's feel toward their non-professing family is similar to what Christians feel about Muslims...... only not that bad. I resent your generalisation that Christians hate Muslims. This may be true of those who are nominally Christian but truly born again believers whose lives have been transformed by grace and are redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus should have no part in the hatred of others regardless of their class or creed. I speak personally of my teaching missions every three months to the coast in Kenya and I can honestly say that some of my best friends there are Muslims. We freely discuss each other’s faith and they understand that I believe the Bible teaches that there is only one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ. ‘[6] Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me,’ (John 14:6 ESV). The apostle Paul outlines the mark of a Christian when writing to the church at Rome and I am afraid that where there is an absence of these marks then one can legitimately question if one’s Christian profession is for real. [9] Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. [10] Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honour. [11] Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. [12] Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. [13] Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. [14] Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. [15] Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. [16] Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. [17] Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honourable in the sight of all. [18] If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. [19] Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” [20] To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” [21] Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good, (Romans 12:9-21 ESV) If you are going to resent my posting, please resent it for what I have said, not what I haven't said. I haven't said anything about Christian hatred toward Muslims in spite of the fact that there is certainly plenty of that. Your post is running off on a quixotic tangent. I still mean what I said, and your post of your attitude toward Muslims is exactly what I was meaning.
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 6, 2014 15:42:54 GMT -5
I suppose , like anything, it depends. I know of a few examples in the very recent past, and one ongoing right now, where the "professing" parents even , of a child that has left meetings, are feeling ostracized right about now. The "professing" abusive husband ,son in law , is supported and in good standing, but the "abused" ex-wife,( daughter ) is the one to "stay away " from. It is viewed as "her" problem etc. etc. The parents, thankfully, are supportive of her, and are also "feeling the pressure" to make a stand against a non-professing member of the family. These "decisions" are not based on whether there are legitimate concerns, which there are, but merely on the "professing" status of the people involved. A young high school graduate , recently , shared how she would not be eligible for financial assistance from her professing parents, to go for post secondary education unless she reprofessed, which she is considering to do, partially for that reason. These are not isolated incidents , it seems, but it could very well be, that the "shunning" has lessened and that is a good thing. We can be thankful for things moving in that direction, which is quite believable. I know of many instances where the family is mature enough to not let their "religion" , interfere with their relationships so much. Encouraging. For ourselves, the shunning, was a "helpful" thing, really, because I don't know how we could have remained faithful to our convictions, if we would have been treated kindly, and the temptation to be a dissembler is easy to fall for. I am thankful for the "kicking' we got, and let's not overdramatize it either, NOBODY ever laid a hand on us or physically harmed us , although if looks could "kill" hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm lol Yes, I would have been viewed as a threat, so if that is justification, I deserved it. I sure don't feel any vengeful feeling or grudges, pray for them as they likely do for me. It is what it is , I love them, and I honestly believe it is mutual, but the "religion' does make it difficult to express openly. My concern in these matters are not really for my family npw so much, , as we are OK, but for those who have experienced it and who are presently experiencing shunning, we need to first admit it happened and is happening before anybody can come to any point of forgiveness or resolution. Thanks for discussion here, and hopefully we can someday say, "that doesn't happen in our church anymore", although it used to. Alvin
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Post by irvinegrey on Apr 6, 2014 15:44:22 GMT -5
I resent your generalisation that Christians hate Muslims. This may be true of those who are nominally Christian but truly born again believers whose lives have been transformed by grace and are redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus should have no part in the hatred of others regardless of their class or creed. If you are going to resent my posting, please resent it for what I have said, not what I haven't said. I haven't said anything about Christian hatred toward Muslims in spite of the fact that there is certainly plenty of that. Your post is running off on a quixotic tangent. I still mean what I said, and your post of your attitude toward Muslims is exactly what I was meaning. If I have misinterpreted what you are saying then I am sorry. However, if you are not implying that Christians hate Muslims maybe you could explain more fully what you do mean.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 16:05:25 GMT -5
If you are going to resent my posting, please resent it for what I have said, not what I haven't said. I haven't said anything about Christian hatred toward Muslims in spite of the fact that there is certainly plenty of that. Your post is running off on a quixotic tangent. I still mean what I said, and your post of your attitude toward Muslims is exactly what I was meaning. If I have misinterpreted what you are saying then I am sorry. However, if you are not implying that Christians hate Muslims maybe you could explain more fully what you do mean. If you think of the context of this thread, you would never had considered I was talking about hatred. After all, I have never stated, intimated, or even think that F&Ws generally hate exes. Here it is: Christians judge that all Muslims are headed for a hot eternal hell! ......and that is a pretty universally held belief before you jump to a criticism of "generalization" or "broad brushing". Very rare exceptions of Christians believe otherwise. Your own post confirms that view, and it's pretty ugly from the way I see it. While you may not hate Muslims and claim some best buddies as friends, your exclusive view promotes hatred, which is not universal among Christians but far too common.
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Post by faune on Apr 6, 2014 16:08:52 GMT -5
A direct and equal comparison with the JW's is neither fair nor accurate. I don't know of a time when there was ever a common complete cut-off of family leaving the meetings (I am sure there were some cases but I don't personally know of any offhand) such as the JW's have practiced or the RCC use to practice when someone went Protestant. Yes, there was a "distancing" to varying degrees depending on the family. Today, families with kids who have left are quite involved with their unprofessing kids....I see it all the time. The distance that 2x2's feel toward their non-professing family is similar to what Christians feel about Muslims...... only not that bad. I resent your generalisation that Christians hate Muslims. This may be true of those who are nominally Christian but truly born again believers whose lives have been transformed by grace and are redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus should have no part in the hatred of others regardless of their class or creed. I speak personally of my teaching missions every three months to the coast in Kenya and I can honestly say that some of my best friends there are Muslims. We freely discuss each other’s faith and they understand that I believe the Bible teaches that there is only one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ. ‘[6] Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me,’ (John 14:6 ESV). The apostle Paul outlines the mark of a Christian when writing to the church at Rome and I am afraid that where there is an absence of these marks then one can legitimately question if one’s Christian profession is for real. [9] Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. [10] Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honour. [11] Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. [12] Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. [13] Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. [14] Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. [15] Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. [16] Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. [17] Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honourable in the sight of all. [18] If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. [19] Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” [20] To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” [21] Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good, (Romans 12:9-21 ESV) Irvine ~ I believe Clearday probably intended to say "a few Christians may feel hatred towards Muslims," because I don't believe all Christians feel this way and most Christians I know don't hold prejudice towards Muslims because of the 9/11 Disaster. I also hold this same opinion about Muslims based on what I have seen personally. My daughter has some fine Muslim neighbors where she lives in Florida and they are the nicest people. I met them myself and I was I very impressed with them. They may not share the same beliefs we do about Jesus Christ, but they are not all radicals in their beliefs, like that fringe group back in September 2008. In fact, the ones I have met at the YMCA here in town and my work in the past really impressed me with their peaceful ways.
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Post by Mary on Apr 6, 2014 16:11:47 GMT -5
Do you think Jesus hated everyone, when he certainly hated sin...what you are saying clearday is the same. Is Irvine saying that he hates everyone who is not a Christian? This again is what you are saying. To me wanting to offer salvation to people is love not hate. Plenty of hate from Muslims towards Christians though. I agree the word hate was not what I picked up in the opening post.
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Post by irvinegrey on Apr 6, 2014 16:21:19 GMT -5
If I have misinterpreted what you are saying then I am sorry. However, if you are not implying that Christians hate Muslims maybe you could explain more fully what you do mean. If you think of the context of this thread, you would never had considered I was talking about hatred. After all, I have never stated, intimated, or even think that F&Ws generally hate exes. Here it is: Christians judge that all Muslims are headed for a hot eternal hell! ......and that is a pretty universally held belief before you jump to a criticism of "generalization" or "broad brushing". Very rare exceptions of Christians believe otherwise. Your own post confirms that view, and it's pretty ugly from the way I see it. While you may not hate Muslims and claim some best buddies as friends, your exclusive view promotes hatred, which is not universal among Christians but far too common. OK Clearday I am sorry that I misinterpreted your post. God will be the judge of the eternal destiny of every man and woman. I believe there are only two categories - those who are saved and those who are lost. Those who reject God's offer of salvation through His Son Jesus Christ will go to eternal punishment and those who have accepted God's offer of salvation to eternal life. Perhaps the sternest warning of all is that, '“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven, Matthew 7:21
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 16:22:46 GMT -5
Do you think Jesus hated everyone, when he certainly hated sin...what you are saying clearday is the same. Is Irvine saying that he hates everyone who is not a Christian? This again is what you are saying. To me wanting to offer salvation to people is love not hate. Plenty of hate from Muslims towards Christians though. I agree the word hate was not what I picked up in the opening post. Right. The subject is not hatred of exes or hatred of Muslims, although it is a related topic. Exclusivity promotes both self-righteous and hatred of those who oppose that exclusivity. It doesn't guarantee that people will hate because I do know exclusive people who are not haters,and I think Irvine Grey might be an example of someone who is exclusive and has managed to avoid hatred of those who do not agree with him. Exclusivity certainly promotes distancing and shunning. Again, a few exclusive people can resist those anti-love characteristics, but it's not easy.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 16:27:03 GMT -5
If you think of the context of this thread, you would never had considered I was talking about hatred. After all, I have never stated, intimated, or even think that F&Ws generally hate exes. Here it is: Christians judge that all Muslims are headed for a hot eternal hell! ......and that is a pretty universally held belief before you jump to a criticism of "generalization" or "broad brushing". Very rare exceptions of Christians believe otherwise. Your own post confirms that view, and it's pretty ugly from the way I see it. While you may not hate Muslims and claim some best buddies as friends, your exclusive view promotes hatred, which is not universal among Christians but far too common. OK Clearday I am sorry that I misinterpreted your post. God will be the judge of the eternal destiny of every man and woman. I believe there are only two categories - those who are saved and those who are lost. Those who reject God's offer of salvation through His Son Jesus Christ will go to eternal punishment and those who have accepted God's offer of salvation to eternal life. Perhaps the sternest warning of all is that, '“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven, Matthew 7:21 No problem.....and yes, I fully understand your belief which effectively states that all Muslims are going to hell (and probably quite a few who self-identify as Christians). I know you want to avoid saying that and avoid appearing to judge others, but your beliefs lead you to no other option. Your view is no different than 2x2's saying "oh we don't judge, only God will judge" when you know for certain that they are judging them because they are not in the meetings and professing in the worker system. It is completely identical to your stance, the only difference being that you allow for a broader way.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 6, 2014 16:29:48 GMT -5
I suppose , like anything, it depends. I know of a few examples in the very recent past, and one ongoing right now, where the "professing" parents even , of a child that has left meetings, are feeling ostracized right about now. The "professing" abusive husband ,son in law , is supported and in good standing, but the "abused" ex-wife,( daughter ) is the one to "stay away " from. It is viewed as "her" problem etc. etc. The parents, thankfully, are supportive of her, and are also "feeling the pressure" to make a stand against a non-professing member of the family. These "decisions" are not based on whether there are legitimate concerns, which there are, but merely on the "professing" status of the people involved. A young high school graduate , recently , shared how she would not be eligible for financial assistance from her professing parents, to go for post secondary education unless she reprofessed, which she is considering to do, partially for that reason. These are not isolated incidents , it seems, but it could very well be, that the "shunning" has lessened and that is a good thing. We can be thankful for things moving in that direction, which is quite believable. I know of many instances where the family is mature enough to not let their "religion" , interfere with their relationships so much. Encouraging. For ourselves, the shunning, was a "helpful" thing, really, because I don't know how we could have remained faithful to our convictions, if we would have been treated kindly, and the temptation to be a dissembler is easy to fall for. I am thankful for the "kicking' we got, and let's not overdramatize it either, NOBODY ever laid a hand on us or physically harmed us , although if looks could "kill" hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm lol Yes, I would have been viewed as a threat, so if that is justification, I deserved it. I sure don't feel any vengeful feeling or grudges, pray for them as they likely do for me. It is what it is , I love them, and I honestly believe it is mutual, but the "religion' does make it difficult to express openly. My concern in these matters are not really for my family npw so much, , as we are OK, but for those who have experienced it and who are presently experiencing shunning, we need to first admit it happened and is happening before anybody can come to any point of forgiveness or resolution. Thanks for discussion here, and hopefully we can someday say, "that doesn't happen in our church anymore", although it used to. Alvin I think we have to distinguish between negative, adversarial behaviours between religious people of different stripes, and systematic and routine shunning of people who leave the church, as practiced by JWs, Hutterites and Old Order Mennonites. If you were viewed as a threat, that is not justification for ostracizing you, it's still awful, but it is not what is meant by shunning.
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Post by irvinegrey on Apr 6, 2014 16:34:47 GMT -5
OK Clearday I am sorry that I misinterpreted your post. God will be the judge of the eternal destiny of every man and woman. I believe there are only two categories - those who are saved and those who are lost. Those who reject God's offer of salvation through His Son Jesus Christ will go to eternal punishment and those who have accepted God's offer of salvation to eternal life. Perhaps the sternest warning of all is that, '“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven, Matthew 7:21 No problem.....and yes, I fully understand your belief which effectively states that all Muslims are going to hell (and probably quite a few who self-identify as Christians). I know you want to avoid saying that and avoid appearing to judge others, but your beliefs lead you to no other option. Your view is no different than 2x2's saying "oh we don't judge, only God will judge" when you know for certain that they are judging them because they are not in the meetings and professing in the worker system. It is completely identical to your stance, the only difference being that you allow for a broader way. I am afraid there is a vast difference to what I believe and that of the 2x2 system. I believe that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ and His atoning death and this is Biblical. The 2x2s believe that the only way to God is through the 2x2 system which is one of works and rules.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 16:36:38 GMT -5
I suppose , like anything, it depends. I know of a few examples in the very recent past, and one ongoing right now, where the "professing" parents even , of a child that has left meetings, are feeling ostracized right about now. The "professing" abusive husband ,son in law , is supported and in good standing, but the "abused" ex-wife,( daughter ) is the one to "stay away " from. It is viewed as "her" problem etc. etc. The parents, thankfully, are supportive of her, and are also "feeling the pressure" to make a stand against a non-professing member of the family. These "decisions" are not based on whether there are legitimate concerns, which there are, but merely on the "professing" status of the people involved. A young high school graduate , recently , shared how she would not be eligible for financial assistance from her professing parents, to go for post secondary education unless she reprofessed, which she is considering to do, partially for that reason. These are not isolated incidents , it seems, but it could very well be, that the "shunning" has lessened and that is a good thing. We can be thankful for things moving in that direction, which is quite believable. I know of many instances where the family is mature enough to not let their "religion" , interfere with their relationships so much. Encouraging. For ourselves, the shunning, was a "helpful" thing, really, because I don't know how we could have remained faithful to our convictions, if we would have been treated kindly, and the temptation to be a dissembler is easy to fall for. I am thankful for the "kicking' we got, and let's not overdramatize it either, NOBODY ever laid a hand on us or physically harmed us , although if looks could "kill" hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm lol Yes, I would have been viewed as a threat, so if that is justification, I deserved it. I sure don't feel any vengeful feeling or grudges, pray for them as they likely do for me. It is what it is , I love them, and I honestly believe it is mutual, but the "religion' does make it difficult to express openly. My concern in these matters are not really for my family npw so much, , as we are OK, but for those who have experienced it and who are presently experiencing shunning, we need to first admit it happened and is happening before anybody can come to any point of forgiveness or resolution. Thanks for discussion here, and hopefully we can someday say, "that doesn't happen in our church anymore", although it used to. Alvin Don't think for a moment that you "deserved it" because you didn't. There is no justification for your shunning and they should have been scrambling to work out how you could have been retained in the meetings.....but they didn't. They saw you as a threat and acted accordingly in a very rational human way even though it was the wrong way. They thought they were protecting the sheep. You see, you had good motives and they had good motives but the actions were skewed from anything that was good.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 16:38:23 GMT -5
No problem.....and yes, I fully understand your belief which effectively states that all Muslims are going to hell (and probably quite a few who self-identify as Christians). I know you want to avoid saying that and avoid appearing to judge others, but your beliefs lead you to no other option. Your view is no different than 2x2's saying "oh we don't judge, only God will judge" when you know for certain that they are judging them because they are not in the meetings and professing in the worker system. It is completely identical to your stance, the only difference being that you allow for a broader way. I am afraid there is a vast difference to what I believe and that of the 2x2 system. I believe that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ and His atoning death and this is Biblical. The 2x2s believe that the only way to God is through the 2x2 system which is one of works and rules. If you can't see how similar your beliefs are to 2x2 beliefs in the above statement, then I will have to rest my case until I can come up with a better way to explain it.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 6, 2014 16:39:41 GMT -5
Do you think Jesus hated everyone, when he certainly hated sin...what you are saying clearday is the same. Is Irvine saying that he hates everyone who is not a Christian? This again is what you are saying. To me wanting to offer salvation to people is love not hate. Plenty of hate from Muslims towards Christians though. I agree the word hate was not what I picked up in the opening post. Personally, I think many Christians, not only Irvine Grey, are in severe cognitive dissonance, if they play the friend, while thinking privately that a Muslim acquaintance is going to Hell for not accepting Jesus Christ. The only way I can reconcile Jesus to a commitment to redemption, or being a propitiation for sin, is that there is no such thing as Hell as we tend to conceive it.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 6, 2014 16:41:43 GMT -5
No problem.....and yes, I fully understand your belief which effectively states that all Muslims are going to hell (and probably quite a few who self-identify as Christians). I know you want to avoid saying that and avoid appearing to judge others, but your beliefs lead you to no other option. Your view is no different than 2x2's saying "oh we don't judge, only God will judge" when you know for certain that they are judging them because they are not in the meetings and professing in the worker system. It is completely identical to your stance, the only difference being that you allow for a broader way. I am afraid there is a vast difference to what I believe and that of the 2x2 system. I believe that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ and His atoning death and this is Biblical. The 2x2s believe that the only way to God is through the 2x2 system which is one of works and rules. Kellogg's or Post, it's all breakfast cereal to me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 16:44:30 GMT -5
Do you think Jesus hated everyone, when he certainly hated sin...what you are saying clearday is the same. Is Irvine saying that he hates everyone who is not a Christian? This again is what you are saying. To me wanting to offer salvation to people is love not hate. Plenty of hate from Muslims towards Christians though. I agree the word hate was not what I picked up in the opening post. Personally, I think many Christians, not only Irvine Grey, are in severe cognitive dissonance, if they play the friend, while thinking privately that a Muslim acquaintance is going to Hell for not accepting Jesus Christ. The only way I can reconcile Jesus to a commitment to redemption, or being a propitiation for sin, is that there is no such thing as Hell as we tend to conceive it. I reconcile it by viewing Jesus as a metaphor for love and truth. That is, it is only through Jesus(love and truth) that your salvation is secure. That transcends all religions and beyond. Jesus is everywhere, metaphorically speaking.
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Post by whyisitso on Apr 6, 2014 16:57:27 GMT -5
I left just over 2 years ago. The people I spoke to regularly (my friends) who are still in the fellowship, I still speak to regularly now. The people who I didn't speak to regularly and only saw at meeting/mission I don't see/speak to now. For me, the relationships I have amongst ppl in the fellowship are real and stand the test of time and season. The others, I'm not concerned about now as I obviously wasn't concerned about them before. I make relationships with people based on mutual love & respect, not their religious beliefs! I understand that not everyone is treated the same when you leave and I think that has a bit to do with the area you are from. In saying that tho, if I'd been friends with someone while I went to meetings and I wasn't now (because of their actions) I'd be asking them face to face what is the problem?
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Post by Mary on Apr 6, 2014 17:05:11 GMT -5
Do you think Jesus hated everyone, when he certainly hated sin...what you are saying clearday is the same. Is Irvine saying that he hates everyone who is not a Christian? This again is what you are saying. To me wanting to offer salvation to people is love not hate. Plenty of hate from Muslims towards Christians though. I agree the word hate was not what I picked up in the opening post. Personally, I think many Christians, not only Irvine Grey, are in severe cognitive dissonance, if they play the friend, while thinking privately that a Muslim acquaintance is going to Hell for not accepting Jesus Christ. The only way I can reconcile Jesus to a commitment to redemption, or being a propitiation for sin, is that there is no such thing as Hell as we tend to conceive it. So you have severe cognitive dissonance if the 2x2s you talk to play friend while thinking privately that you are going to hell for no longer 'professing'. I am surprised how a couple are judging Christians when they need to apply their own logic or lack of it to themselves.
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Post by faune on Apr 6, 2014 17:25:24 GMT -5
Do you think Jesus hated everyone, when he certainly hated sin...what you are saying clearday is the same. Is Irvine saying that he hates everyone who is not a Christian? This again is what you are saying. To me wanting to offer salvation to people is love not hate. Plenty of hate from Muslims towards Christians though. I agree the word hate was not what I picked up in the opening post. Personally, I think many Christians, not only Irvine Grey, are in severe cognitive dissonance, if they play the friend, while thinking privately that a Muslim acquaintance is going to Hell for not accepting Jesus Christ. The only way I can reconcile Jesus to a commitment to redemption, or being a propitiation for sin, is that there is no such thing as Hell as we tend to conceive it. What Hat ~ Did you notice I did a thread around "cognitive dissonance" just recently? It's amazing how this can play an integral part in our Christian core beliefs and leave us feeling all tangled up within?
When I surveyed in past months how the subject of "Hell" and eternal damnation came into being during the first few centuries, I deducted that we cannot take everything we read in the Bible as being "God inspired." With all the copying of copies down through the centuries and numerous translations, I'm sure some things were added and taken away, or specially selected by the RCC, for inclusion within the Bible canon? Even the ECF's, like St. Augustine, spoke of using "poetic license" back in their day as well as some Roman historians during Caesar's time like Josephus. Therefore, I believe you need to take what you can apply to your life from the Bible, and what may have pertained to that day and age needs to be kept within its context and not applied to our lives today. JMT
professing.proboards.com/thread/21097/core-beliefs-shape-life-experience
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Post by faune on Apr 6, 2014 17:36:43 GMT -5
Personally, I think many Christians, not only Irvine Grey, are in severe cognitive dissonance, if they play the friend, while thinking privately that a Muslim acquaintance is going to Hell for not accepting Jesus Christ. The only way I can reconcile Jesus to a commitment to redemption, or being a propitiation for sin, is that there is no such thing as Hell as we tend to conceive it. So you have severe cognitive dissonance if the 2x2s you talk to play friend while thinking privately that you are going to hell for no longer 'professing'. I am surprised how a couple are judging Christians when they need to apply their own logic or lack of it to themselves. Mary ~ Perhaps What Hat's friends within the faith don't share the same exclusive views as the others within the 2x2's and that's why they are still friends? However, you do make a point here in that the 2x2's as a group do view all Christians outside their group as being lost and on their way to Hell ~ at least that's the way the F&W's viewed it when I left the fold about 20 years ago. I believe they are still just as exclusive as they were during my professing days, so obviously not much has changed except for a few outward changes? This exclusive attitude is pretty shared by the majority within the 2x2's towards outsiders of their faith, don't you think?
The Us vs. Them mentality would have to go first before real changes in "core beliefs" were realized most likely? However, this would most likely help in getting rid of this "cognitive dissonance" that's so apparent today? JMT
professing.proboards.com/thread/21097/core-beliefs-shape-life-experience
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 17:54:48 GMT -5
So you have severe cognitive dissonance if the 2x2s you talk to play friend while thinking privately that you are going to hell for no longer 'professing'. I am surprised how a couple are judging Christians when they need to apply their own logic or lack of it to themselves. Mary ~ Perhaps What Hat's friends within the faith don't share the same exclusive views as the others within the 2x2's and that's why they are still friends? However, you do make a point here in that the 2x2's as a group do view all Christians outside their group as being lost and on their way to Hell ~ at least that's the way the F&W's viewed it when I left the fold about 20 years ago. I believe they are still just as exclusive as they were during my professing days, so obviously not much has changed except for a few outward changes? This exclusive attitude is pretty shared by the majority within the 2x2's towards outsiders of their faith, don't you think?
The Us vs. Them mentality would have to go first before real changes in "core beliefs" were realized most likely? However, this would most likely help in getting rid of this "cognitive dissonance" that's so apparent today? JMT
professing.proboards.com/thread/21097/core-beliefs-shape-life-experience
Faune, check this out as I modify your paragraph just a little: " However, you do make a point here in that the 2x2'sChristians as a group do view all Christiansnon Christians outside their group as being lost and on their way to Hell ~ at least that's the way the F&W's Christians viewed it when I left the fold about 20 years ago. I believe they are still just as exclusive as they were during my professing Catholic/Protestant days, so obviously not much has changed except for a few outward changes? This exclusive attitude is pretty shared by the majority within the 2x2'sChristians towards outsiders of their faith, don't you think? " What do you think? Anything special or unique about 2x2 exclusivity? Do you think that cognitive dissonance is much more common than just being confined to the 2x2's?
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 6, 2014 18:22:02 GMT -5
The other factor you mention is the "divided home" idea. I was in that situation for 4 months, and did not like it at all. Suddenly you have lost all your privileges because your spouse is not attending. When I've mentioned on the odd occasion, to friends outside the fellowship, that we were considered a "divided home" some people begin laughing! I mean, we've been married for close to 40 years. For me, the demotions that resulted around being a "divided home" were a major contributing factor to my own exit. [/quote]
Thanks, everyone for your posts, It is also helpful , probably for others reading here, who might be just reading along. The "divided home' is a complication, indeed. We had a couple relating their experiences some time ago. The couple had a Wednesday night meeting in their home, and went to another home for Sunday mtg. She professed for years, and after some time ceased to profess. She continued to go with her husband for many years. She was talented in singing, and faithfully continued to lead the singing ,in the meetings, respectfully and reverently , being the "subjective" wife she felt she needed to be. the husband continued to "profess", but struggled to observe how the "dynamics" had changed towards his precious wife, whom he very much loved and respected and knew her "heart" of love and compassion. After quite a few years of this, he said, "this is enough", I can't do this anymore, and he made the stand to not continue in the meetings, partially from observing the "treatment" of his wife. She was "good enough" to host friends and workers and lead the singing in the meetings, etc. but "spiritually" she was not good enough, and this "invisible" barrier could not be surmounted. I relate it , not to prove anything, but just if someone finds themselves in these "weird" situations, to encourage you to stand together as family , and not let "religion" divide your home. Whathat, thanks for not allowing a "divided home". We were with a couple, briefly, in Turkey a while ago, and he was Muslim and she was Christian, and I think we could learn a few lesssons from them. I forget how many years it was now, that they had been married, but they were both celebrating their relationship together, and could observe how much they valued each other. I think they both would have agreed- God is LOVE. ~~~~~~~ Alvin
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Post by faune on Apr 6, 2014 18:26:28 GMT -5
I left just over 2 years ago. The people I spoke to regularly (my friends) who are still in the fellowship, I still speak to regularly now. The people who I didn't speak to regularly and only saw at meeting/mission I don't see/speak to now. For me, the relationships I have amongst ppl in the fellowship are real and stand the test of time and season. The others, I'm not concerned about now as I obviously wasn't concerned about them before. I make relationships with people based on mutual love & respect, not their religious beliefs!I understand that not everyone is treated the same when you leave and I think that has a bit to do with the area you are from. In saying that tho, if I'd been friends with someone while I went to meetings and I wasn't now (because of their actions) I'd be asking them face to face what is the problem? Whyisitso ~ I wish I could say that a few still within the faith from my past still keep in touch with me, but I must admit, most of those friends are ex-2x2's now and therefore share many of my same views today. Perhaps the hardest part for me to comprehend was the total indifference I experienced from the F&W's when I one day decided to stop attending meeting out of total burn-out. I told nobody of my intentions ~ it was more like an "on the spot decision" which was a long time in the making. I also make relationships with people based on mutual love and respect ~ not on religious beliefs. I have a number Christian friends as well as some who are atheists/agnostics, both here on this Board and in real life. In fact, my husband would be considered an agnostic atheist today. We mutually accept each others beliefs and don't make waves over our differences. I personally feel anybody can find some "common ground" over time with people they may disagree with on beliefs. It's really a shame to let religious beliefs create such a great divide between people when we are part of God's creation? It just doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps that's why cognitive dissonance enters so often through core religious beliefs?
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Post by faune on Apr 6, 2014 18:46:18 GMT -5
We've been out three years now. We don't have as much contact with the friends, and of course, don't have the contact we had at conventions and meetings. We're not in the loop on church potlucks or the like but those are infrequent anyway. But we still see perhaps a dozen or two friends fairly regularly, some couples, some individual friends who drop by at work. We don't see some of our closer friends as much as we would like, but that's our fault as much as anything. We have a lot of new things on the go. So, is there systemic shunning? There has been none whatsoever as far as I can tell. I think some ex-friends could experience distancing based on lifestyle issues. But Mrs. Hat and I haven't changed all that much. I'll concede that I have acquired a taste for craft beers, but one is my limit. Unless someone else is paying, then two. I've been quite "distanced" and forgotten mostly. Not even the elder who I grew up with has bothered to keep intouch....the second elder tried for a time but now isn't. I know that it came about due to the pressures and gossip juices given out by IH's kindred....simply because they want to negate anything that I may have(they don't even have proof that I have said or done anything in relation to that situation as far as the local church is concerned. But I do know I's oldest living sister was very much into starting gossip and untruths immediately after I had sent my exit letter to all of those I met with in mtgs. And she sent her gossipy and untruths about me via email that she had erroneously hit "reply" instead of "send"....I sent it back to her and told her that she was full of untruths in that email she had intended to send to the other worker brother JH....I have NO idea if she sent it all then to JH or not, but from local response or lack of it, tells me she likely sent even worse! I guess I can kind of understand her denial behavior in regards to IH's criminal somewhat of an admission, and thus she wanted to put the turkey on someone besides him....and I was a really ripe one to put the "wrongs" onto though I had nothing to do with IH's criminal behaviours. Sheesh, I would have hated it if she'd had corresponded with some of IH's victims and then when they tell the truth about dear brother IH, she'd put the onus of the untruths upon the victims...but hey, that's what the workers have been doing since day one in dealing with the victims and their families. Sharingtheriches ~ I feel bad that your older sister within the 2x2's treated you that way. Also, it must have been a shocker to receive that E-mail about you intended for somebody else? Have you settled differences since then or is there still a large gap due to the wall between you and her created by the 2x2's? You definitely have my sympathy. My older sister left two years after I did, but she could see a lot of the same things I shared with her afterwards. It was just getting up the nerve to say "Good-bye" to 30 years of professing and not knowing what awaits you on the other side. I wonder how many people just stay within the faith due to fear of the unknown? However, there does seem to come a time when you have to act to live with your own conscience and have peace within. That's what I discovered from my own experience, although it took almost eight (8) years to find a church home that felt like a comfortable fit for me and my family. My kids were teenagers then, but none of them professed because they saw the same things I did that motivated my departure in the end.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 18:59:03 GMT -5
Some in the Truth have poor communication skills. They use people and walk over people. A small group that mostly associates with itself and avoids much interaction with others is subject to act that way.It is easy for a spiritual bully to emerge from a small meeting and hurt people. Bullies are insecure and hurt others in order to build themselves up. Meetings should be a support group.Instead many are run by cliques who ignore and trample over the less favored members. Just like kindergarten class without a teacher controlling things. Spiritual bullying is a raw nerve with me. I have both bullied and been bullied so I see this thing from both angles. A meeting should be a support group.
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