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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2014 11:22:25 GMT -5
Post moved from above, and supplemented. There is a reference in Matthew 25:46 to "everlasting punishment" but the Greek word aionios, translated as "everlasting", apparently does not mean endless or eternal, and even "everlasting" is not a good translation. There is a Greek word for endless and the writer chose not to use it here. The word "aionios" has a root of "aion", meaning an "age". So the writer is speaking of punishment for a lifetime, or possibly for ages, but not for eternity. The word punishment could have been rendered as "correction", and some think that God's motive, even after death, is still to correct sinners. Here is an interesting read on the word "aionios". books.google.ca/books?id=o3fO9ODYA30C&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=falseThis are over 80 pages on this one word, and from what I have read, the writer argues that "aionios" does not denote a specific duration but goes with the subject. In the same sense, a big tree is not the same size as a big grain of sand. "Aionios" used with 'man' means the entire life of a man. "Aionios" used with God means God, ever and forever. With punishment, it refers to some arbitrary duration of time in the after-life. Here are the conclusions of the writer - Thus it has appeared as the result of this discussion that i There is nothing in the Etymology of the word warranting the erroneous view of it [i.e that it means everlasting or eternal] 2 The definitions of Lexicographers uniformly given not only allow but compel the view we have advocated 3 Greek writers before and at the time the Septuagint was made always gave the word the sense of limited duration 4 Such is the general usage in the Old Testament 5 The Jewish Greek writers at the time of Christ ascribed to it limited duration 6 The New Testament thus employs it 7 The Christian Fathers for centuries after Christ thus understood it
And from his introduction PREFACE The verbal pivot on which swings the question Does the Bible teach the doctrine of Endless Punishment? is the word Aion and its derivatives and reduplications. The author of this treatise has endeavored to put within brief compass the essential facts pertaining to the history and use of the word and he thinks he has conclusively shown that it affords no support whatever to the erroneous doctrine. It will generally be conceded that the tenet referred to is not contained in the Scriptures if the meaning of endless duration does not reside in the controverted word. The reader is implored to examine the evidence presented as the author trusts it has been collected with a sincere desire to learn the truth.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2014 11:29:02 GMT -5
Show me the verse that has "gnashing of teeth throughout Eternity". The ideas are so commonplace that we string together phrases like this, but I don't see them in the Bible. There is a reference in Matthew 25:46 to "everlasting punishment" but the Greek word aionios, translated as "everlasting", apparently does not mean endless or eternal. There is a Greek word for endless and the writer chose not to use it here. The word "aionios" has a root of "aion", meaning an "age". So the writer is speaking of punishment for a lifetime, or possibly for ages, but not for eternity. The word punishment could have been rendered as "correction", and some think that God's motive, even after death, is still to correct sinners. Here is an interesting read on the word "aionios". books.google.ca/books?id=o3fO9ODYA30C&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false gnashing of teeth...Luke 13:23-30 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?” He said to them, “Try very hard to enter through the narrow door. I tell you, many will try to enter and will not be able to. The owner of the house will get up and close the door. Then you will stand outside knocking and begging. You will say, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’ “But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you. And I don’t know where you come from.’ 26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you. You taught in our streets.’ 27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you. And I don’t know where you come from. Get away from me, all you who do evil!’ “You will sob and grind your teeth when you see those who are in God’s kingdom. You will see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets there. But you yourselves will be thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south. They will take their places at the feast in God’s kingdom. Then the last will be first. And the first will be last.” Matthew 25:14-30
The Story of Three Servants14 “Again, here is what the kingdom of heaven will be like. A man was going on a journey. He sent for his servants and put them in charge of his property. 15 He gave $10,000 to one. He gave $4,000 to another. And he gave $2,000 to the third. The man gave each servant the amount of money he knew the servant could take care of. Then he went on his journey. 16 “The servant who had received the $10,000 went at once and put his money to work. He earned $10,000 more. 17 The one with the $4,000 earned $4,000 more. 18 But the man who had received $2,000 went and dug a hole in the ground. He hid his master’s money in it. 19 “After a long time the master of those servants returned. He wanted to collect all the money they had earned. 20 The man who had received $10,000 brought the other $10,000. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you trusted me with $10,000. See, I have earned $10,000 more.’ 21 “His master replied, ‘You have done well, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things. I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’ 22 “The man with $4,000 also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you trusted me with $4,000. See, I have earned $4,000 more.’ 23 “His master replied, ‘You have done well, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things. I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’ 24 “Then the man who had received $2,000 came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man. You harvest where you have not planted. You gather crops where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid. I went out and hid your $2,000 in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’ 26 “His master replied, ‘You evil, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not planted? You knew that I gather crops where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money in the bank. When I returned, I would have received it back with interest.’ 28 “Then his master commanded the other servants, ‘Take the $2,000 from him. Give it to the one who has $20,000. 29 Everyone who has will be given more. He will have more than enough. And what about anyone who doesn’t have? Even what he has will be taken away from him. 30 Throw that worthless servant outside. There in the darkness, people will sob and grind their teeth.’ (Rev.19:20) But the beast and the false prophet were captured. The false prophet had done miraculous signs for the beast. In this way the false prophet had tricked those who had received the mark of the beast and had worshiped his statue. The beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. (Rev.20:10, 14-15) The devil, who fooled them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur. That is where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will all suffer day and night for ever and ever.... Then Death and Hell were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not written in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire. Scripture speaks of "gnashing of teeth", but you said "gnashing of teeth for Eternity". Where do you see that? Then, the "lake of fire" and the second death have been interpreted various ways, including the end of Sin and Error. If anything the idea of a Second Death indicates that the narrative of redemption does not end in this life.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2014 11:55:16 GMT -5
(Rev.19:20) But the beast and the false prophet were captured. The false prophet had done miraculous signs for the beast. In this way the false prophet had tricked those who had received the mark of the beast and had worshiped his statue. The beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. (Rev.20:10, 14-15) The devil, who fooled them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur. That is where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will all suffer day and night for ever and ever.... Then Death and Hell were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not written in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire. WH, can you explain these verses about THEY (Satan, fallen angels, the false prophets, and their followers) will suffer DAY and NIGHT forever and ever?I have seen various interpretations. For myself, I don't close apocalyptic verses such as this around one particular sequence of events. Perhaps it's time for me to read Revelations again since my more recent universalist Christian leanings. I do find Revelations 20:13 interesting in that it mentions the dead being delivered up from Hell. Most people seem to think that once you're in Hell, you're there for good. Anyway, here is one explanation of these verses. I can't say I agree with everything in it, but again, parsing out Revelations into a detailed apocalyptic recipe is not something I'm interested in. I do think it's good to read Revelations.
BY D. P. LIVERMORE. CHICAGO, ILL.: D. P. LIVERMORE. 1862.
THE SECOND DEATH.
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged 6ut of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead that were in them, and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."—Rev. 20:12-14.
As Many erroneous ideas have been entertained in regard to this language of the Revelator, and as many mistaken opinions still prevail concerning the second death, we propose to give the subject a thorough examination.
Human creeds teach that endless misery is the second death which man is to suffer in the immortal world. It is believed that the term "hell," "lake of tire," and "second death," do not refer to different places or states of being, but all have reference to the same place and denote the same awful state of suffering after death.
Now, on the supposition that "hell" means a place of suffering in the immortal world, as many contend, it cannot be endless in duration, for death and hell delivered up the dead that were in them; hence, if delivered from hell, as the Revelator informs us, the suffering certainly was not endless! Besides, we are nowhere informed that those delivered from hell returned back again. But it is not essential to dwell at length upon the errors into which many have fallen upon this subject, and hence we pass to other considerations.
Some have thought that apostatizing from the faith was the second death. Man is represented in the Bible as being dead in trespasses and sins, and when such have been quickened, born of God, and renewed in the spirit and temper of their minds, and been transformed into newness of life by the spirit of grace and truth, and have afterwards fallen away — backslidden from the faith — and turned back again to the weak and beggarly elements of the world, they are spoken of by an apostle as being twice dead, or suffering a second death. All this is doubtless true, and such might suffer not only a second but a third and fourth death, for as often as they should fall back from a moral quickening, or moral life, they would be dead in sin again. This exposition of the subject does not appear to us to be what the Revelator intended by the second death, referred to in our text. A more obvious and natural interpretation to our mind is that a national death is spoken of, a temporal destruction, which was to come upon the Jewish nation soon after the book of Revelations was written; a destruction more severe than had ever visited a nation, and greater indeed than ever should be again. It is proper here to remark that we think the book of Revelations was written previously to the second destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. While learned and distinguished biblical divines do not agree upon this point, we think there is sufficient evidence in the book itself to warrant the belief that it was written prior to the second overthrow of the Jewish nation by Titus, and the dispersion of the chosen people of God among the nations of the earth.
In the short preface to the book of Revelations, we are twice informed, that what was contained in the book itself was soon to be accomplished — the time was near at hand for the fulfillment of the vision. In the first verse we are informed that Jesus Christ revealed unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. And in the third verse, those who heard and read the prophecy, were commanded to keep and treasure up those things which were written — they were near — not far off— but at hand. And after the vision had been made known, to remind the people again that the things written were soon to be fulfilled, we read as follows in the last chapter of this book:
"Behold I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give to every man according as his work shall be. He which testifieth these things, saith — surely I come quickly"
This language clearly indicates to our mind that the prophecies contained in this book were soon to come to pass, and not that untold ages were to elapse before they should be fulfilled. In olden time the prophets were commanded to seal up the saying of their prophecy, when the time was not at hand, or when the things prophesied were not soon to be fulfilled. But when the events predicted were soon to be accomplished, the vision was commanded not to be sealed, for the time was at hand. Hence the Revelator was Not to seal up the words of his prophecy, for the time of fulfillment was near at hand. "Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand." Rev. 22:10.
In Revelations, Christ is represented as coming quickly—and "coming in clouds and all the kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him." Throughout the Evangelists similar language is employed to represent the second overthrow of the Jewish nation and the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matt. 24:30.
The Revelator says, "Behold, he cometh with clouds;" Matthew says, "The Son of man cometh in the clouds of heaven." The Revelator says, "And all the kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him;" Matthew says, "And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn." Both have reference to the second destruction of the Jewish nation.
The context sets forth in highly figurative language the awful woes and calamities which were to come upon the house of Israel as a retribution for sin. What has been predicted was all summed up in this phrase — "This is the second death." And hence this language clearly implies that there must have been a death previous to this, somewhat similar in its nature. As this national death of the Jews is called the second death, there would be no propriety in this language unless they had suffered a death before this; for if the Revelator were describing their first national death, he certainly would not have described the terrible judgments coming upon the Jewish nation as their second death. It is evident, therefore, that the people referred to must have suffered a death previous to this. We find upon examination that it was so. They had once before lost their national life, and consequently died a national death. That was their first death. And as the Revelator describes more overwhelming calamities to come upon them and greater destruction, he very properly speaks of it as their second death.
The second death was the second destruction of the Jews by Titus, a Roman general, who successfully led the Roman army against the Jewish people, and destroyed them as a nation, so that they have been suffering everlasting punishment for the last eighteen hundred years. Then they lost their national power, and national existence for the second time; and losing their national life the second time, it was called their second death. Their first destruction was when they were led into Babylonish captivity for seventy years—then they lost their national existence and were said to be dead. Then they were led away from their religious altars and became subject to heathen despots. That calamity constituted their first national death. They had no national existence as before. Their restoration from this captivity to their land again, to their altars and temple worship, is spoken of as a resurrection to life. It was like coming up out of their graves; hence, said the Lord, referring to their deliverance, "I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel." They are represented not only as being dead, but as being in their graves. For instruction upon this point, we refer the reader to the 37th chapter of Ezekiel, verse 12-14:
"Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves; And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord."
Here we learn that the Jews, or house of Israel, are represented as being slain and in their graves, but they were to come up out of their graves and live again in their own land, as the 14th verse informs us.
This is highly figurative language, and must not be understood literally. It represents the low state of the Jewish people during their seventy years' captivity. While yet individually alive, they were nationally dead and in their graves. But after they were delivered from captivity and restored to their national privileges and religious altars, they again became a haughty, proud and rebellious people, and ultimately filled up the measure of their iniquity by crucifying the Lord's Anointed and put him to an open shame. Again were severe national judgments to come upon them, and they were to lose their national privileges and national life; and this was their second death.
The highly figurative language employed to describe the second death was in accordance with the ancient mode of speech. Temporal destruction and the overthrow of nations were described, by representing nature as undergoing great changes — the sun being darkened, and the moon turned into blood, and the stars falling from heaven.
"Fire" was another common figure chosen to set forth direful woes and severe national judgments and calamities. Perhaps no figure was more common among the ancients than this. The Jews are spoken of in the Old Testament as being cast into a furnace of fire, and we are twice informed that the Lord's fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem!
This lake of fire was a figurative expression designed to represent the terrible national calamities coming upon the house of Israel. We find similar phraseology throughout the Scriptures. In the 22d chapter of Ezekiel, 17th to 22d verses inclusive, we read as follows:
"And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver. Therefore, thus saith the Lord God, Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof. As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I, the Lord, have poured out my fury upon you."
This again is highly figurative language, descriptive of the severe temporal judgments to come upon the Jewish people. The people were to be gathered in the midst of Jerusalem, as the 19th verse informs us, and the next words are, "And I will leave you there [that is, in Jerusalem] and melt you." The meaning of this is, that the people should be visited with fearful woes and severe national judgments. In the 9th chapter of Isaiah, we read that the wickedness burneth as the fire, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire, the meaning of which is, that they should be destroyed. In the 34th chapter of Isaiah, we have an account of a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. The destruction should be great, and the slaughter terrible, so that the smell should be offensive and the slain should be cast out. At the 9th verse, what was to occur is figuratively described as follows: "And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch." This was highly figurative language, and denoted simply national ruin and destruction.
It was no new thing for the Revelator to represent the overthrow and destruction of a nation, by such figurative expressions as "fire," and even "lake of fire." Regarding then the second death as the second destruction of the Jewish nation by the Romans, we come to a more specific consideration of the subject.
"I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened," etc. This refers to those who rejected Christ, and spurned his teachings and religion. Rejecting his gospel, their names were not written in the book of life, that is, they did not embrace the gospel of life and immortality. The gospel of Christ was the book of life. Those whose names were found written therein, were such as embraced the gospel, by faith and made practical its divine teachings. They suffered not the second death. They did not suffer in those calamities which come upon that ungodly race—not a Christian perished in those national judgments. Those who endured faithful to the end were saved as the Savior promised.
The books were opened, out of which the dead were judged. These doubtless referred to the books of the Jewish laws to which even the Jews had been unfaithful, they having made void the law of God by their traditions, and taught for doctrines the commandments of men. They were judged out of those things written in the books, according to their works.
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them." The meaning of this language is, that nothing could screen the people from impending judgments and a righteous retribution. After they had filled up the measure of their iniquity, in vain could they seek concealment anywhere. In vain would they cry to the rocks and mountains to fall on them and hide them. They must then be brought to judgment and punished. Similar language is found in the book of Amos 9:2, 3.
"Though they dig into hell (sheol), thence shall my hand take them, and though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down; and though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence; and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and he shall bite them."
This language was designed to teach simply that the people could not conceal themselves from the retributive justice of God. In vain would they seek refuge in death and hell (sheol). Their covenant with death should not stand, and their agreement with hell should be disannulled. Dr. Adam Clarke remarks as follows upon this passage:
"Though they dig into hell—though they should get into the deepest caverns; though they climb up to heaven — get to the most inaccessible heights—I will drag them up from the one, and pull them down from the other. Though they hide themselves — all these are metaphorical expressions, to show the impossibility of escape."
In the same metaphorical sense, we think the language we are considering should be understood; and when it says that the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and hell, or hades, gave up the dead which were in them — it means simply that nothing would screen the guilty from righteous retribution; they should be judged according to their works, and punished for their sins. There should be no escape after they had filled up the measure of their iniquity, and merited retribution. Severe national judgments should come upon them, and they again should be dispersed — lose their national life — and be cast out as a by-word and reproach among the nations of the earth, and suffer everlasting punishment.
The same general sentiment is taught, we think, in the 21st chapter, at the 8th verse, where we are informed that the fearful and unbelieving, and murderers, sorcerers, and idolaters, etc., should have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone —which is the second death. When the Jewish nation suffered destruction for the second time—which, indeed, was their second national death—the Christians were saved from these impending judgments — their names were written in the book of life—that is, they gave heed to the instruction of Christ, obeyed his commands, had passed from death unto life, and consequently were not hurt of the second death; they escaped those judgments which came upon the ungodly Jews, while those who rejected Christ and his teachings had their part in the lake of fire and brimstone—which is the second death. No one pretends to understand this language literally. It is highly figurative, and refers to the direful woes and severe national calamities which were to come upon the Jewish race, greater than ever had been or should be again.
Again—"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection." Those who had been quickened from dead works to serve the living God, through the Savior's teachings, were said to be morally and spiritually raised. "Awake thou that sleepest and arise from the dead" etc. The Christians did thus rise from their dead state—they were once dead in trespasses and in sins—when quickened they were raised from the dead, from their state of moral, spiritual death, and thus had part in the first resurrection. And on such the second death had no power. Enduring unto the end faithful, they were saved from sin, and saved from the woes which came upon the unfaithful and unbelieving. Eusebius, the historian, says that not a Christian suffered. They were priests of God, true and faithful followers of Christ, and were exalted to a high rank in the Christian church, and live and reign with Christ.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 12:15:47 GMT -5
D. P. LIVERMORE couldn't be more WRONG...
1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2014 12:50:11 GMT -5
D. P. LIVERMORE couldn't be more WRONG... 1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. My belief that the eternal punishment of Hell is a false notion relies almost entirely on my acceptance of the Spirit of God. I think most ideas about Hell are the work of man, invented for his own purpose, not that of God. I believe that many Christians wish to monopolize God, to claim God as only theirs, and no one else's. Notions of Hell affirm this; you are in or out, eternal heaven or eternal Hell. That's man's idea, not God's. If we then research the history of the church, and what the text means, we then find that indeed, the idea of eternal Hell is a false one.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2014 13:07:38 GMT -5
Whathat, Second Death= The lake of fire is where they (Satan, fallen angels, the false Prophets, and their followers) suffer DAY and NIGHT forever and EVER. (Rev.19:20) But the beast and the false prophet were captured. The false prophet had done miraculous signs for the beast. In this way the false prophet had tricked those who had received the mark of the beast and had worshiped his statue. The beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. (Rev.20:10, 14-15) The devil, who fooled them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur. That is where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will all suffer day and night for ever and ever.... Then Death and Hell were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not written in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire. Your definition of "lake of fire" meaning where people suffer, does not make sense. Revelations 20 states that Sin and Death will be cast into the lake of fire, and this is the Second Death. I think this means the end of Sin and Death. When I read all of the chapter, it states that people suffer in Hell for a time, then are taken out of Hell to be judged. After that it's not very clear. We read about the end of Sin and Death, and those not in the Book of Life also being destroyed.
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Post by xna on Apr 7, 2014 13:21:34 GMT -5
hmmmmm.... You believe in Eternal heaven but no Eternal hell. Thanks, for saying it is your belief about there's no eternal Hell but the scriptures point out differently. There are both places Eternal Hell and Eternal Heaven. There is heaven to gain and HELL to shun....... Wheat vs. tares.... Sheep Vs. the goats.... Heaven vs. Hell.... God vs. Satan... Eternal Life Vs. Eternal Death. Christians and Muslims each believe the other is going to "their" hell. It looks like Islam's hell is worse than Christian hell. “Know they not that whoever opposes God and His Messenger Muhammad, certainly for him will be the Fire of Hell to abide therein? ” (Quran 9:63) “for the rejecters We have prepared iron chains, yokes, and a blazing Fire.” (Quran 76:4) “Those who deny the Book (the Quran) and that with which We sent Our messengers – they are going to know, when the shackles are around their necks and the chains; they will be dragged in boiling water; then in the Fire they will be filled (with flame).” (Quran 40: “Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses – We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, God is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.” (Quran 4:56) “Super-heated water will be poured onto their heads and will dissolve through it until it cuts up their innards, expelling them; until it comes out of their feet, and everything is melted. Then they will be restored as they were.”[6]
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2014 13:25:51 GMT -5
My belief that the eternal punishment of Hell is a false notion relies almost entirely on my acceptance of the Spirit of God. I think most ideas about Hell are the work of man, invented for his own purpose, not that of God. I believe that many Christians wish to monopolize God, to claim God as only theirs, and no one else's. Notions of Hell affirm this; you are in or out, eternal heaven or eternal Hell. That's man's idea, not God's. If we then research the history of the church, and what the text means, we then find that indeed, the idea of eternal Hell is a false one. hmmmmm.... You believe in Eternal heaven but no Eternal hell. Thanks, for saying it is your belief about there's no eternal Hell but the scriptures point out differently. There are both places Eternal Hell and Eternal Heaven. There is heaven to gain and HELL to shun....... Wheat vs. tares.... Sheep Vs. the goats.... Heaven vs. Hell.... God vs. Satan... Eternal Life Vs. Eternal Death.The Scriptures don't say anything of the kind. The Western mind likes to divide everything in two, and tend to kill or destroy what is not familiar to them. That has been the course of human history, so it's no surprise that religion follows the same formula. We have a false notion of God that exists purely to justify our destructive ways. The Master's Son is jealous of the Prodigal being allowed back into the Master's house, but God has said that all flesh shall see salvation. Luk 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 7, 2014 13:33:11 GMT -5
1) When an unbeliever dies the body returns to dust but the soul goes to a place of waiting/Jail cell waiting for the Judge/God to give out the sentenced of punishment/Judgment DAY.... Eternal Hell= to Suffer DAY and NIGHT forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10)the Second Death= The lake of fire is where they (Satan, fallen angels, the false Prophets, and their followers) suffer DAY and NIGHT forever and EVER.
2) When a believer dies the body returns the dust but the soul goes to a place of waiting/in heaven waiting for the Judge/God to reward with new resurrection body to live with God eternal bliss forever and ever. So...ummm... 1) The unbeliever goes to a holding cell (unspecified location) waiting for the Judge/God to make a further pronouncement. 2) The believer goes to a place of waiting in heaven for the Judge/God to make a further pronouncement. There must be a pre-judging phase here somewhere? Who sorts out the believers from the unbelievers? Who decides whether what you believed was "good enough"?
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2014 13:35:51 GMT -5
Your definition of "lake of fire" meaning where people suffer, does not make sense. Revelations 20 states that Sin and Death will be cast into the lake of fire, and this is the Second Death. I think this means the end of Sin and Death. When I read all of the chapter, it states that people suffer in Hell for a time, then are taken out of Hell to be judged. After that it's not very clear. We read about the end of Sin and Death, and those not in the Book of Life also being destroyed. 1) When an unbeliever dies the body returns to dust but the soul goes to a place of waiting/Jail cell waiting for the Judge/God to give out the sentenced of punishment/Judgment DAY.... Eternal Hell= to Suffer DAY and NIGHT forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10)the Second Death= The lake of fire is where they (Satan, fallen angels, the false Prophets, and their followers) suffer DAY and NIGHT forever and EVER.
2) When a believer dies the body returns the dust but the soul goes to a place of waiting/in heaven waiting for the Judge/God to reward with new resurrection body to live with God eternal bliss forever and ever.Sorry, but this doesn't work for me. I think that a believer is anyone who "hungers and thirsts after righteousness". They may believe in Jesus as the son of God or they may not. If they do, then more power is given to them to live a good life. God will bring everyone's works into judgement, and there will a measure of punishment or reward according to the deed, not the person as a whole. The punished can still be rehabilitated at this point. Anyone who still refuses will die a Second Death with Satan and the false prophets. After that there will be no more Sin, and no one will ever have to die again.
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Post by xna on Apr 7, 2014 13:42:40 GMT -5
nathan9" -
Thomas Aquinas said, "That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell."
Do you believe that is so?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 14:00:37 GMT -5
hmmmmm.... You believe in Eternal heaven but no Eternal hell. Thanks, for saying it is your belief about there's no eternal Hell but the scriptures point out differently. There are both places Eternal Hell and Eternal Heaven. There is heaven to gain and HELL to shun....... Wheat vs. tares.... Sheep Vs. the goats.... Heaven vs. Hell.... God vs. Satan... Eternal Life Vs. Eternal Death.The Scriptures don't say anything of the kind. The Western mind likes to divide everything in two, and tend to kill or destroy what is not familiar to them. That has been the course of human history, so it's no surprise that religion follows the same formula. We have a false notion of God that exists purely to justify our destructive ways. The Master's Son is jealous of the Prodigal being allowed back into the Master's house, but God has said that all flesh shall see salvation. Luk 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. they do SEE salvation that is Jesus Christ that doesn't mean that they RECIEVE salvation...
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Post by rational on Apr 7, 2014 14:09:14 GMT -5
from this post it looks as if Truitt's Doctrine", was within the pail of orthodoxy Makes orthodoxy sound something like a slop bucket! There is a lot in that bucket!
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Post by rational on Apr 7, 2014 14:09:58 GMT -5
i've asked before but never got an answer, he sure knows alot of people though... Maybe he is a hub.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 14:15:31 GMT -5
In Luke 16, Jesus tells us what happened to Lazarus and the rich man after they died. "The rich man also died and was buried. And in hell he lift up his eyes being in torments ...". I would be interested to hear what people make of this. What was Jesus talking about if there is no hell? In particular, what was the "flame" the rich man referred to ("I am tormented in this flame") in ... wherever he was? I find this rather frightening for myself.
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Post by rational on Apr 7, 2014 14:21:06 GMT -5
The sentence was quite clear without your alterations. The concept of hell creates cognitive dissonance for you so you create a concept that you can live with in order to reduce your cognitive dissonance. The concept that there is no hell. I will state what I have written above again: You have a state of cognitive dissonance regarding the concept of hell so you create a concept that you can live with in order to reduce your state of cognitive dissonance regarding a loving God sending people to hell. For cognitive dissonance to exist you have to hold on to two (or more) contradictory viewpoints. There is zero cognitive dissonance once you let go of the "burning in Hell" scenario because the contradiction ceases to exist. Either I have a state of cognitive dissonance or I don't. You can't have it and not have it at the same time. You really need an Electric Monk! Electric Monks believed things for you, thus saving you what was becoming an increasingly onerous task, that of believing all the things the world expected you to believe. Douglas Adams
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 14:22:30 GMT -5
In Luke 16, Jesus tells us what happened to Lazarus and the rich man after they died. "The rich man also died and was buried. And in hell he lift up his eyes being in torments ...". I would be interested to hear what people make of this. What was Jesus talking about if there is no hell? In particular, what was the "flame" the rich man referred to ("I am tormented in this flame") in ... wherever he was? I find this rather frightening for myself. It's a parable, not a true story. Readers need to extract the metaphoric meanings, not use it as an accurate depiction of the after life.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 14:32:26 GMT -5
Clearday - yes, I understand that it is probably a parable. But if it is, what is the metaphoric meaning that you draw from it? What do you think the "hell" that Jesus referred to was?
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2014 14:38:07 GMT -5
The Scriptures don't say anything of the kind. The Western mind likes to divide everything in two, and tend to kill or destroy what is not familiar to them. That has been the course of human history, so it's no surprise that religion follows the same formula. We have a false notion of God that exists purely to justify our destructive ways. The Master's Son is jealous of the Prodigal being allowed back into the Master's house, but God has said that all flesh shall see salvation. Luk 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. they do SEE salvation that is Jesus Christ that doesn't mean that they RECIEVE salvation... From tentmaker.org web site
Christ, to whom, in whom, and for whom are all things will reconcile all things unto God (Colossians 1:15-20). He makes all things new. (Rev. 21:5) Hence His work is the restitution of all things (Acts 3:21); He is Heir of all things (Hebrews 1:2); in Him not only all nations will be blessed (Galatians 3:8), but even every family of the earth will be blessed (Gen 12:32; 28:14); for the Father has given Him authority over all flesh, to give to whosoever was given to Him eternal life (John 17:2); and so all flesh shall see the salvation of God (Luke 3:6) since the Father has given all things into His hands. (John 3:35) Therefore, contrary to popular Christian opinion, we do not find billions in a Hell cursing God but we find every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and UNDER the earth saying blessing and honour and glory and power be unto Him that sits upon the throne and unto the Lamb (Rev. 5:13). We find every knee of things in heaven and earth, and under the earth, bends to Him and every tongue confesses Him as their Lord (Philippians 2:10) and we know that no one can confess Jesus as Lord except by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:3).
For God, Whose counsel is immutable (Hebrews 6:17), Whose attitude towards His enemies is love unchanging (Luke 6:27-35), will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth (1 Timothy 2:4, KJV); and all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9); and has shut all up unto unbelief, in order that he may show mercy upon all (Romans 11:32); for (out) of Him, as Source, and unto (or into) Him, as End, are all things whatsoever (Romans 11:36); and He has, therefore, put all things into subjection under Christ's feet (Ephesians 1:22).
And so we are assured that God will gather into one all things in Christ (Ephesians 1:10); and His grace comes upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18). So Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands (John 13:3), promises by His Cross to draw (drag in the Greek) all men unto Himself (John 12:32). For having, as stated, received all things from the Father (John 3:35), all that was given come to Him shall come to Him and He will lose absolutely no one (John 6:37-39); but if any stray, He goes after that which is lost till He find it (Luke 15:4). Despite the fact that many of God’s chosen and elect believe God’s hand is too short to save (Isaiah 50:2) God’s hand is not too short to save (Isaiah 59:1; 63:5).
He comes in order that all men may believe (John 1:17); that the world, through Him, may be saved (John 3:17); His grace brings salvation to all men (Titus 2:11); for He takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29); gives His flesh for it's Life (John 6:51); and, because the gifts and calling of God are without Repentance (Romans 9:29), He gives life to the world (John 6:33); is the light of the world (John 8:12); is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1John 2:2); is the Savior of all men (1Timothy 4:10); destroys the works of the devil, not some of them only (1John 3:8); abolishes death (2Timothy 1:10); puts all His enemies under His feet including death (1 Cor. 15:26), is manifest to put away sin (Hebrews 9:26); and thus subduing all things unto Himself (Philippians 3:21; the context clearly shows this subjection to be conformity to Himself); does not forget the dead, but takes the gospel to Hades (1Peter 3:19); of which He holds the keys (Revelation 1:18); for He is the same (Savior) for ever (Hebrews 13:8); thus even the dead are evangelized (1Peter 4:6).
Thus all are made alive in Him (1Corinthians 15:22); for Christ finishes, completes His work (John 17:4; 19:30): restores all things (Acts 3:21); and there is no more curse (Revelation 22:2-3); for the creation is delivered from the bondage of corruption (Romans 8:21); and so comes the end when Christ delivers up the Kingdom to God, Who is then All in All because ALL God’s enemies are defeated, the last enemy being death, NOT eternally alive being endlessly punished. (1Corinthians 15:24-28).
Salvation is a gift from God, it is not of works lest anyone be found boasting (Eph 2:8) and that gift has been given to all men despite the fact that some of God’s own people don’t like such generous grace. (Rom. 5:8; Matt. 5:1-16)
We can be assured of all these wonderful and glorious things because nothing is too difficult for Him (Luke 1:37) and while many things are impossible with man, nothing is impossible with God. (Matt. 19:26) Furthermore, God is love (1 John 4:8), a love that love never fails (1 Cor. 13:8), a love that lays down His life for not only His own, but His enemies as well and commands His disciples to do likewise.. (Matt. 5:38-48) Therefore, for God to endlessly punish His enemies would make Him a hypocrite commanding less powerful and less loving human beings to do what He is not willing to do. (Matt. 23) There is nothing that can withstand His will and no plan of His can be thwarted. (Job 4:42) The Son came to save the world and not condemn it (Luke 5:59). Jesus asked the Father to forgive those who crucified Him (all of us) (Luke 23:34) The Father has laid the iniquity of us all upon the Lamb of God (Isaiah 53:6). Jesus died for all of us. (John 1:29) To punish us now would be double jeopardy. Indeed, we can enter into His peace, believing that it is indeed finished! (John 19:30) The gift of life has been given to everyone. (Rom. 5:18)
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2014 14:52:45 GMT -5
In Luke 16, Jesus tells us what happened to Lazarus and the rich man after they died. "The rich man also died and was buried. And in hell he lift up his eyes being in torments ...". I would be interested to hear what people make of this. What was Jesus talking about if there is no hell? In particular, what was the "flame" the rich man referred to ("I am tormented in this flame") in ... wherever he was? I find this rather frightening for myself. No one is saying there is no hell. The teaching of universalist Christians is that there is no eternal Hell. Read it again with Hell just being a place of punishment, and the parable has no loss in meaning, but it's much more believable.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2014 14:55:02 GMT -5
For cognitive dissonance to exist you have to hold on to two (or more) contradictory viewpoints. There is zero cognitive dissonance once you let go of the "burning in Hell" scenario because the contradiction ceases to exist. Either I have a state of cognitive dissonance or I don't. You can't have it and not have it at the same time. You really need an Electric Monk! Electric Monks believed things for you, thus saving you what was becoming an increasingly onerous task, that of believing all the things the world expected you to believe. Douglas Adams Is that in the Hitchhiker's Guide or somewhere else?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 15:13:52 GMT -5
In Luke 16, Jesus tells us what happened to Lazarus and the rich man after they died. "The rich man also died and was buried. And in hell he lift up his eyes being in torments ...". I would be interested to hear what people make of this. What was Jesus talking about if there is no hell? In particular, what was the "flame" the rich man referred to ("I am tormented in this flame") in ... wherever he was? I find this rather frightening for myself. No one is saying there is no hell. The teaching of universalist Christians is that there is no eternal Hell. Read it again with Hell just being a place of punishment, and the parable has no loss in meaning, but it's much more believable. It doesn't make much difference to me what you call it - "hell" or "place of punishment". I also draw from the words of Jesus the understanding that there is a separation between those who are "saved" (for want of a better word) and those who are not. "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed; so that they that would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence".
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2014 15:19:48 GMT -5
No one is saying there is no hell. The teaching of universalist Christians is that there is no eternal Hell. Read it again with Hell just being a place of punishment, and the parable has no loss in meaning, but it's much more believable. It doesn't make much difference to me what you call it - "hell" or "place of punishment". I also draw from the words of Jesus the understanding that there is a separation between those who are "saved" (for want of a better word) and those who are not. "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed; so that they that would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence". I'm not sure where you're going with that. The issue is purely one of whether hell is eternal or not. The Bible speaks of people coming out of Hell. Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Can we assume from that that the "rich man" could also be delivered up from Hell?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 15:21:34 GMT -5
NathanB. Although I am not entirely sure whether the account of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable, I take your point. It might not be a parable (and certainly it is not described by Luke as a parable). Whether it is or it isn't, these words of Jesus are left on record for a purpose.
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Post by irvinegrey on Apr 7, 2014 15:22:14 GMT -5
I posted this recently on another thread on the subject of Hell so here goes again. Hell is no myth and it would be so much easier to accept the plight of those who are not saved if it was. In Matthew 25:46 “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life,” however, eternal punishment can have only one meaning. The unbroken usage of the adjective ‘eternal’ excludes the idea of ‘endlessness’ and forbids us to go the way of universalism in saying that our Lord is teaching here a very long period of corrective detention.
The notion of ‘eternity’ in the New Testament excludes the idea of termination; and the noun ‘punishment’ wherever used signifies painful experience. Furthermore the Greek word kolasis (punishment) is a sharing of the fate of the ‘devil and his angels’ as in verse 41, that is the second death of Revelation 21:10 and 14 with all its frightful realities of a final and irreversible change of place and state along with continuing personal life. Can the precise terms used by our Saviour in this passage point in any other direction? New Testament Scholar, Leon Morris observes that ‘the same adjective is applied to both punishment and reward.’ - One group to eternal punishment and the righteous (v37) to eternal life.
Morris writes:
Jesus is not speaking of some small experience that would be but for a moment, but of that which has no end. He leaves his hearers in no doubt as to the solemnity of what he is saying. Eternal issues are involved, and this is so for those on his right hand and on his left.
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Post by Mary on Apr 7, 2014 15:43:46 GMT -5
The sentence was quite clear without your alterations. The concept of hell creates cognitive dissonance for you so you create a concept that you can live with in order to reduce your cognitive dissonance. The concept that there is no hell. I will state what I have written above again: You have a state of cognitive dissonance regarding the concept of hell so you create a concept that you can live with in order to reduce your state of cognitive dissonance regarding a loving God sending people to hell. For cognitive dissonance to exist you have to hold on to two (or more) contradictory viewpoints. There is zero cognitive dissonance once you let go of the "burning in Hell" scenario because the contradiction ceases to exist. Either I have a state of cognitive dissonance or I don't. You can't have it and not have it at the same time. When you think of hell it creates a cognitive dissonance for you so you have decided there is no hell. You have had to find something to relieve the cognitive dissonance and believing there is no hell does it for you. What happens when you think there is a hell - it creates cognitive dissonance so you have decided there is no hell to ease that dissonance. You don't have the 2 at the same time. You use one to replace the other. Hell creates dissonance for you so you replace it with believing there is no hell. You use/create a thought or belief to relieve the dissonance. For me the thought a hell does not create dissonance so I don't have the create a belief to nullify the dissonance. The concept of hell certainly creates a dissonance for you. There is nothing wrong with dissonance as we all have it every day of our lives. It's part of being human and trying to make sense of the world. It is how beliefs are formed in our search for answers.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2014 15:53:00 GMT -5
Clearday - yes, I understand that it is probably a parable. But if it is, what is the metaphoric meaning that you draw from it? What do you think the "hell" that Jesus referred to was? There is a line of thinking that it is no place at all. That when Jesus referred to Hell he was using the Greek concept of Hades in order to show how much he disliked a particular thing. Like someone saying a certain place was a "living Hell", which means it was bad, but not Hell, per se. Consider when Jesus said in Matthew 25:46 that "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment", in reference to those who don't minister to the hungry or poor. Does this mean salvation is based on works after all? Because punishment and eternal life here seem to hinge on one's treatment of the poor. Or was Jesus speaking metaphorically, that is, there literally isn't an everlasting punishment. Some people think this; I'm not actually in that camp. The only way I can read this is that God brings every work into judgement and it's not mainly a question of just believing in His Son.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2014 15:56:42 GMT -5
NathanB. Although I am not entirely sure whether the account of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable, I take your point. It might not be a parable (and certainly it is not described by Luke as a parable). Whether it is or it isn't, these words of Jesus are left on record for a purpose. Although a lot of people keep quite busy adding to the words.
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