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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 19:09:04 GMT -5
i've asked before but never got an answer, he sure knows alot of people though...
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Post by faune on Apr 6, 2014 19:12:45 GMT -5
Humdidee ~ Good question? Perhaps he will answer us as to his past life within the 2x2's ~ or perhaps he's still within the group? I really don't know the answer to either of these questions. Perhaps Walker will be nice enough to bring us all up to speed, as he's a pretty nice guy on this Board.
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Post by xna on Apr 6, 2014 19:47:35 GMT -5
We pretty much drifted and then just walked away. One Sunday we decided that we would just stop going. A worker called and spoke to my wife. She left it with him that; if we wanted to come back we would get in touch. Looking back today I would handled our exit differently; written an exit letter, or had a face to face meeting to explain why we are departing. Since that phone call we never had contacted the F&W, and the F&W never contacted us. Our only contact with F&W is at funerals of family members, and our immediate family members who still profess. I don't think our experience fits the definition of ostracize, but it is also a "normal" end to decade long relations.
We still have contact with our family members who profess. We don't bring up religion with them because we know they will not change their minds, and they don't bring up religion with us, for reasons unknown. Our family is dysfunctional - in their own special way!
Today I would have no problem speaking to any F&W about what each believe and don't believe, and why. From time to time we get JW, Mormons and other local church members knock on our door. I invite them in to talk, and my wife disappears until they are gone. I never ask them to leave, but they only last about an hour. So far I haven't had any tell me they are "now shaking off the dust of their feet!" But then, there were those two black ladies who left quite upset soon after I read them the bible verses that support oppression of women, and slavery.
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Post by déjà vu on Apr 6, 2014 19:59:28 GMT -5
"I read them the bible verses that support oppression of women, and slavery."
which verses are you referring to xna ?
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Post by lilwolfmisty on Apr 6, 2014 20:00:31 GMT -5
Alvin as always I appreciate your perspective. and all the others that have commented here too. I think too many people in the 2X2 as well as in religion in general pay too much attention to conformity( doing what everyone else is doing regardless of whether is is right) instead of Morality (doing what is right regardless of what everyone else is doing)I do think however that people that are in the 2X2 like to hide behind conformity in order to not pay attention to such things as doctrinal differences, sexual abuse, spousal abuse, and they put way too much stock in things like what one wears, how much money one makes, and yes ostracism does go on even now and sometimes it is blatant but it is always hurtful I know that when I was going through all my issues in WA only one family reached out to see if I was doing ok, no one else not even the worker's seemed to care that I went to jail, spent time without my kids etc... it was like I never even existed. I have also witnessed other incidents, but I also know that when I wouldn't show up at Unity church I would have a call from a prayer Chaplain asking if everything was ok and if they could pray for me, I think the worker's in particular could learn from this what if when someone is struggling they give them a call and ask to pray with and for them instead of blaming everything on their non attendance, their failure to conform etc. If things don't change 2X2 is just going to be just another dying church. Christ wants his church to be vital and alive which are we going to choose conformity or morality? I also read today Jesus hung out with ladys, liars, thieves he didn't put requirements on who could believe he said "come unto me.." so why do we put demands on someone to belong to our group you have to give so much money to the workers, you have to wear two hundred dollar dresses on Sunday at convention, you have to have a 4 story house with 20 bedroooms so you can have a meeting, you have to wear your hair in a bun, etc...Jesus never said any of this and people that shun or take part in complacence need to think about that!
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Post by lilwolfmisty on Apr 6, 2014 20:05:32 GMT -5
stupid autocorrect "lady's" should read ladies of the evening but used another word. and humidee the person that is being forced into a relationship should not conform should instead run the other way lots and lots of red flags when everyone else but the person wants a marriage this is the US not the people's republic of China or somewhere else that arranged marriages are done. my goodness!
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Post by xna on Apr 6, 2014 20:14:46 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Apr 6, 2014 20:25:48 GMT -5
Walker1903 is creepy. He/they/it post personal photo sites and I often wonder what people would think if they knew Walker was sharing info without their permission. Granted, he does know a lot about different workers ~ perhaps from moving around or being a member of the2x2's for a number of years? As far as sharing gravesites, I remember seeing a thread in the past that has a collection of all these gravesites and it was open to the public. So, I don't feel he's violating anybody's privacy here ~ after all they all are dead and aren't about to make a fuss? They might even appreciate being remembered favorably by somebody after their death if they can view from the afterlife? Usually when somebody dies, you can access a lot of information on them on the Internet with little difficult due to them being deceased.
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Post by lilwolfmisty on Apr 6, 2014 20:35:07 GMT -5
humidee I pray that people would not force her to choose death over life, there is always a choice and choosing death has it's own implications. If she actually chose death rather than to be in an arranged marriage that was forced on her many people would be sad many more than would be happy. sometimes when we have been compliant and complacent for so long it is hard to step outside the box and think outside the box. People expect us to just comply with worker's wishes because we always have, but like a quote that was in my grandpa's wallet when he passed away says "if you always do what you have always done you will always get what you have always gotten" so sometimes we have to do something different and not joining a forced union would be high on my list of noncompliance especially if red flags exist that means that the relationship would just be one where the woman is abused in the name of the bible told what her place is etc...
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Post by faune on Apr 6, 2014 20:40:32 GMT -5
We pretty much drifted and then just walked away. One Sunday we decided that we would just stop going. A worker called and spoke to my wife. She left it with him that; if we wanted to come back we would get in touch. Looking back today I would handled our exit differently; written an exit letter, or had a face to face meeting to explain why we are departing. Since that phone call we never had contacted the F&W, and the F&W never contacted us. Our only contact with F&W is at funerals of family members, and our immediate family members who still profess. I don't think our experience fits the definition of ostracize, but it is also a "normal" end to decade long relations. We still have contact with our family members who profess. We don't bring up religion with them because we know they will not change their minds, and they don't bring up religion with us, for reasons unknown. Our family is dysfunctional - in their own special way! Today I would have no problem speaking to any F&W about what each believe and don't believe, and why. From time to time we get JW, Mormons and other local church members knock on our door. I invite them in to talk, and my wife disappears until they are gone. I never ask them to leave, but they only last about an hour. So far I haven't had any tell me they are "now shaking off the dust of their feet!" But then, there were those two black ladies who left quite upset soon after I read them the bible verses that support oppression of women, and slavery. Xna ~ You do know one way to discourage JW's from coming to your door is to tell them you are Roman Catholic? They will then cross you off the list for future home visits. I don't know why this is the case, but I take it that they have a lot of prejudice concerning the RCC, which is also exclusive in its beliefs as much as JW's and Mormons. The only difference is that Roman Catholics don't ostracize you like the JW's and Mormon's once you leave their group. In fact, they probably would treat you no different than when you were a member of their church. Although they are exclusive in beliefs, they are pretty balanced in how they treat others outside their faith. 8-)They don't seem to hold grudges or shun you after you leave, which probably would encourage people more to return under the circumstances, I would guess? I have a number of relatives on my husband's side who are Catholic, so I have been exposed to some of their views personally besides my own research. Most Catholics I know are pretty cool people and care a lot about helping those with special needs in a number of areas, which also is praiseworthy. I never saw much of this within the 2x2's as far as charitable acts towards outsiders. I don't even remember it was ever being encouraged by the workers? I guess they felt they were the only charity the friends needed to concern themselves with since they were "homeless ministers?"
BTW, why does your wife disappears when these folks come to visit? Does she suspect you're going to have some fun debating with them over some beliefs issues?
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Post by xna on Apr 6, 2014 20:54:18 GMT -5
We pretty much drifted and then just walked away. One Sunday we decided that we would just stop going. A worker called and spoke to my wife. She left it with him that; if we wanted to come back we would get in touch. Looking back today I would handled our exit differently; written an exit letter, or had a face to face meeting to explain why we are departing. Since that phone call we never had contacted the F&W, and the F&W never contacted us. Our only contact with F&W is at funerals of family members, and our immediate family members who still profess. I don't think our experience fits the definition of ostracize, but it is also a "normal" end to decade long relations. We still have contact with our family members who profess. We don't bring up religion with them because we know they will not change their minds, and they don't bring up religion with us, for reasons unknown. Our family is dysfunctional - in their own special way! Today I would have no problem speaking to any F&W about what each believe and don't believe, and why. From time to time we get JW, Mormons and other local church members knock on our door. I invite them in to talk, and my wife disappears until they are gone. I never ask them to leave, but they only last about an hour. So far I haven't had any tell me they are "now shaking off the dust of their feet!" But then, there were those two black ladies who left quite upset soon after I read them the bible verses that support oppression of women, and slavery. Xna ~ You do know one way to discourage JW's from coming to your door is to tell them you are Roman Catholic? They will then cross you off the list for future home visits. I don't know why this is the case, but I take it that they have a lot of prejudice concerning the RCC, which is also exclusive in its beliefs as much as JW's and Mormons. The only difference is that Roman Catholics don't ostracize you like the JW's and Mormon's once you leave their group. In fact, they probably would treat you no different than when you were a member of their church. Although they are exclusive in beliefs, they are pretty balanced in how they treat others outside their faith. 8-)They don't seem to hold grudges or shun you after you leave, which probably would encourage people more to return under the circumstances, I would guess? I have a number of relatives on my husband's side who are Catholic, so I have been exposed to some of their views personally besides my own research. Most Catholics I know are pretty cool people and care a lot about helping those with special needs in a number of areas, which also is praiseworthy. I never saw much of this within the 2x2's as far as charitable acts towards outsiders. I don't even remember it was ever being encouraged by the workers? I guess they felt they were the only charity the friends needed to concern themselves with since they were "homeless ministers?"
BTW, why does your wife disappears when these folks come to visit? Does she suspect you're going to have some fun debating with them over some beliefs issues?
------------ One of workers I professed under said the a RCC was the closest to the truth. That surprised me. Another interesting comment I heard about the RCC was from the owner of a company he started from scratch. He is not religious, but he modeled his company after the a RCC because, they they had the best track record for running a multinational company. It worked, as it in the top twenty largest companies worldwide. Wife says she is done with all religions, and doesn't want to waste anymore time on it. They have "spoiled the well" for her. I still have interest as I find a self examined life has more meaning.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 6, 2014 21:34:39 GMT -5
Personally, I think many Christians, not only Irvine Grey, are in severe cognitive dissonance, if they play the friend, while thinking privately that a Muslim acquaintance is going to Hell for not accepting Jesus Christ. The only way I can reconcile Jesus to a commitment to redemption, or being a propitiation for sin, is that there is no such thing as Hell as we tend to conceive it. So you have severe cognitive dissonance if the 2x2s you talk to play friend while thinking privately that you are going to hell for no longer 'professing'. I am surprised how a couple are judging Christians when they need to apply their own logic or lack of it to themselves. Close. The 2x2s in that situation are experiencing cognitive dissonance, not me. I don't believe in eternal Hell so there's no cognitive dissonance on that score. But I surely had it for many years. I think Christians tend to put Hell on the back burner and not think about it too much. If they thought it through they would realize that a loving God cannot be reconciled to an eternal Hell.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 6, 2014 21:45:16 GMT -5
Thanks, everyone for your posts, It is also helpful , probably for others reading here, who might be just reading along. The "divided home' is a complication, indeed. We had a couple relating their experiences some time ago. The couple had a Wednesday night meeting in their home, and went to another home for Sunday mtg. She professed for years, and after some time ceased to profess. She continued to go with her husband for many years. She was talented in singing, and faithfully continued to lead the singing ,in the meetings, respectfully and reverently , being the "subjective" wife she felt she needed to be. the husband continued to "profess", but struggled to observe how the "dynamics" had changed towards his precious wife, whom he very much loved and respected and knew her "heart" of love and compassion. After quite a few years of this, he said, "this is enough", I can't do this anymore, and he made the stand to not continue in the meetings, partially from observing the "treatment" of his wife. She was "good enough" to host friends and workers and lead the singing in the meetings, etc. but "spiritually" she was not good enough, and this "invisible" barrier could not be surmounted. I relate it , not to prove anything, but just if someone finds themselves in these "weird" situations, to encourage you to stand together as family , and not let "religion" divide your home. Whathat, thanks for not allowing a "divided home". We were with a couple, briefly, in Turkey a while ago, and he was Muslim and she was Christian, and I think we could learn a few lesssons from them. I forget how many years it was now, that they had been married, but they were both celebrating their relationship together, and could observe how much they valued each other. I think they both would have agreed- God is LOVE. ~~~~~~~ Alvin I'm pretty glad that my wife and I are fellowship-ping with the same group. But the other part of it was ... God has given us gifts, and how do I give a whole hearted service, using my gifts or talents, when someone says, no you can't. That didn't seem right to me. I feel strongly that God doesn't want us to be captive in that way, and as I told the elder at the time, "I'm going to do something else for a while". At the time I had no idea what that 'something else' would be, but things fell into place quite nicely after we left. We may not have everything worked out, but at least we feel we're back on the journey.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 6, 2014 21:50:53 GMT -5
We pretty much drifted and then just walked away. One Sunday we decided that we would just stop going. A worker called and spoke to my wife. She left it with him that; if we wanted to come back we would get in touch. Looking back today I would handled our exit differently; written an exit letter, or had a face to face meeting to explain why we are departing. Since that phone call we never had contacted the F&W, and the F&W never contacted us. Our only contact with F&W is at funerals of family members, and our immediate family members who still profess. I don't think our experience fits the definition of ostracize, but it is also a "normal" end to decade long relations. We still have contact with our family members who profess. We don't bring up religion with them because we know they will not change their minds, and they don't bring up religion with us, for reasons unknown. Our family is dysfunctional - in their own special way! Today I would have no problem speaking to any F&W about what each believe and don't believe, and why. From time to time we get JW, Mormons and other local church members knock on our door. I invite them in to talk, and my wife disappears until they are gone. I never ask them to leave, but they only last about an hour. So far I haven't had any tell me they are "now shaking off the dust of their feet!" But then, there were those two black ladies who left quite upset soon after I read them the bible verses that support oppression of women, and slavery. We don't bring up religion either. I think that is wise; in our case it was my wife's idea. Now if I thought they weren't saved I might feel compelled to say something, but I don't feel that way at all. I'm not fond of exit letters, as getting into doctrinal issues is counter-productive at best, and adversarial at worst.
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Post by Mary on Apr 6, 2014 22:05:56 GMT -5
So you have severe cognitive dissonance if the 2x2s you talk to play friend while thinking privately that you are going to hell for no longer 'professing'. I am surprised how a couple are judging Christians when they need to apply their own logic or lack of it to themselves. Close. The 2x2s in that situation are experiencing cognitive dissonance, not me. I don't believe in eternal Hell so there's no cognitive dissonance on that score. But I surely had it for many years. I think Christians tend to put Hell on the back burner and not think about it too much. If they thought it through they would realize that a loving God cannot be reconciled to an eternal Hell. So cognitive dissonance is every one else, it is never us. You have a state of cognitive dissonance regarding the concept of hell so you create a concept that you can live with in order to reduce your state of cognitive dissonance regarding a loving God sending people to hell.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 6, 2014 22:44:43 GMT -5
Close. The 2x2s in that situation are experiencing cognitive dissonance, not me. I don't believe in eternal Hell so there's no cognitive dissonance on that score. But I surely had it for many years. I think Christians tend to put Hell on the back burner and not think about it too much. If they thought it through they would realize that a loving God cannot be reconciled to an eternal Hell. So cognitive dissonance is every one else, it is never us. You have had a state of cognitive dissonance regarding the concept of hell so you create accepted a concept that you can could live with in order to reduce your state of cognitive dissonance regarding a loving God sending people to hell. I'm sorry, but I am not sure what you mean with the last sentence exactly. I think what you're saying would be correct with a few minor modifications. I don't believe God wants us to live with cognitive dissonance; that's why he gave us minds and the power of logical thinking.
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Post by déjà vu on Apr 6, 2014 23:26:15 GMT -5
Your quote xna
"One of workers I professed under said the a RCC was the closest to the truth. That surprised me. "
some similarities ! celibate Clergy ,salvation by Grace plus works
"St Francis of Assisi objected to the friars having books besides the Scriptures, since they were unnecessary
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Post by blandie on Apr 6, 2014 23:27:31 GMT -5
It will have a lot to do with how much of a threat you appear to be, whether it is a real threat or not. There has certainly been no shortage of shunning in the past and it still occurs when it is fear-based. Remember (or realize) Alvin, they are probably more scared of you than you are of them. Thats part of it but I also think sometimes it is a case of whether the friends think you can be coaxed back into meetings and sometimes the almighty dollar has some sway too if a person's one of those who has business ties with the friends or if the friends hear about the workers continuing to make little visits to the person or if the person just left or was put out by a worker and the elders were told the conditions for the person coming back and taking part. I don't think that has changed much or depends much on where you live and I take your point that it maybe also has to do with how much threat is seen with associating with the excom'd and whether the person might get other friends convinced to leave also. Maybe it is the 'What happens in Fight Club stays in Fight Club' mentality of the F&W culture that it is not the place of the friends to engage in spiritual talk with outsiders except to give an invite to a sitdown with a worker or to the next gospel meeting. That itself rips out the important elephant in the room that should be discussed but isn't mentioned. But sure some do turn and walk away - and some were good friends before - lest they risk an encounter and others don't make eye contact or respond to a hello and it is shunning for whatever the reason and when the kiddies in tow see the folks do that I think it does become ingrained too.
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Post by Mary on Apr 6, 2014 23:59:04 GMT -5
So cognitive dissonance is every one else, it is never us. You have had a state of cognitive dissonance regarding the concept of hell so you create accepted a concept that you can could live with in order to reduce your state of cognitive dissonance regarding a loving God sending people to hell. I'm sorry, but I am not sure what you mean with the last sentence exactly. I think what you're saying would be correct with a few minor modifications. I don't believe God wants us to live with cognitive dissonance; that's why he gave us minds and the power of logical thinking. The sentence was quite clear without your alterations. The concept of hell creates cognitive dissonance for you so you create a concept that you can live with in order to reduce your cognitive dissonance. The concept that there is no hell. I will state what I have written above again: You have a state of cognitive dissonance regarding the concept of hell so you create a concept that you can live with in order to reduce your state of cognitive dissonance regarding a loving God sending people to hell.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 0:07:25 GMT -5
So cognitive dissonance is every one else, it is never us. You have had a state of cognitive dissonance regarding the concept of hell so you create accepted a concept that you can could live with in order to reduce your state of cognitive dissonance regarding a loving God sending people to hell. I'm sorry, but I am not sure what you mean with the last sentence exactly. I think what you're saying would be correct with a few minor modifications. I don't believe God wants us to live with cognitive dissonance; that's why he gave us minds and the power of logical thinking. Allow me to try, without using the fact that God is Love. If Mary is a believer, she will probably agree with the following: God cannot sin. God cannot lie. God cannot murder. One of the fundamental laws of God is against murder. It is not only ascribed to him as one of his laws, it would be a sin to do so. Sending someone to eternal hell is murder. It is the end forever for that person. God cannot murder so there cannot be an eternal hell. Cognitive dissonance about an impossibly murdering God is gone.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 0:11:27 GMT -5
i'm gonna disagree that "Sending someone to eternal hell is murder"...when God starts handing out "the second deaths" it will be justice at play not murder...
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Post by Mary on Apr 7, 2014 0:12:04 GMT -5
I do not believe that God sends someone to hell. I believe by own sin we send ourselves or choose hell. (Maybe that is how I reduce my own cognitive dissonance). We choose our destiny by our own actions. There is forgiveness in this life for those who want it. Only the devil will be sent to hell.
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Post by irvinegrey on Apr 7, 2014 1:10:40 GMT -5
So you have severe cognitive dissonance if the 2x2s you talk to play friend while thinking privately that you are going to hell for no longer 'professing'. I am surprised how a couple are judging Christians when they need to apply their own logic or lack of it to themselves. Close. The 2x2s in that situation are experiencing cognitive dissonance, not me. I don't believe in eternal Hell so there's no cognitive dissonance on that score. But I surely had it for many years. I think Christians tend to put Hell on the back burner and not think about it too much. If they thought it through they would realize that a loving God cannot be reconciled to an eternal Hell. For the born again believer there is no conflict between the love of God and the wrath of God. God sent His Son to propitiate His wrath and to reject his offer of mercy and grace means that God will punish the sinner with eternal damnation. We call that the justice of God. [21] But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—[22] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: [23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [24] and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [25] whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. [26] It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:21-26 ESV)
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 7, 2014 9:28:49 GMT -5
Not really true here in the southern Midwest....idealism reigns supreme in the area's 2x2 church members..... very few exiting people are kept up with by professing workers/friends, esp. after the first 2 years have gone by and the exiting usually is felt to be a reproach that the 2x2's do not feel they should have to bear and they will keep their "hurt feelings" against the exes for showing them that the way they believe/worship has some serious problems. They consider anyone exiting is truly criticizing the 2x2 religion and I guess they may be right except they have the broader meaning to it, then what the exes feel their reasons for leaving are about! A lot of idealism and denial reign supreme. Strange part of it for me is, when I was participating in the 2x2s my own sister was so jealous of me she made my life a living hell, but as soon as I'm out of it, she is willing to try and get along better! This happened back years ago when I left the first time. She has to feel she has done something I haven't done! Why is it that people feel that after they leave the meetings that the workers or friends should "keep up with them"? The logic of it escapes me. If I left the meetings, I wouldn't expect the vast majority to "keep up" with me, since the vast majority don't do so now. Even those with whom I have ongoing personal relationships I would expect most to drift away at least a bit, not having the meetings in common anymore. These are natural, normal occurrences as one chooses changes in life activities, not shunning or ostracization! I don't believe my point was trying to keep up with anyone, CD! It was more about the cruelities that rumors and gossiping does from those whom one has met with for a great number of years. It completely separates one from those whom one has felt "kindred" with and as in my case, a cruel separation from those whom I grew up with, much less professed with! Ostracizing comes in different ways and it isn't always the "keeping up with" that is the point, but the pain that the resulting ostracizing is brought about with cruelities by those one has "trusted" with even their soul's welfare! It's in the name of "false" religion when the "love for our brothers" is brought to nothing but cruel rumors and gossips and proves that the "love" wasn't really there at all!
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2014 10:00:01 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but I am not sure what you mean with the last sentence exactly. I think what you're saying would be correct with a few minor modifications. I don't believe God wants us to live with cognitive dissonance; that's why he gave us minds and the power of logical thinking. The sentence was quite clear without your alterations. The concept of hell creates cognitive dissonance for you so you create a concept that you can live with in order to reduce your cognitive dissonance. The concept that there is no hell. I will state what I have written above again: You have a state of cognitive dissonance regarding the concept of hell so you create a concept that you can live with in order to reduce your state of cognitive dissonance regarding a loving God sending people to hell. For cognitive dissonance to exist you have to hold on to two (or more) contradictory viewpoints. There is zero cognitive dissonance once you let go of the "burning in Hell" scenario because the contradiction ceases to exist. Either I have a state of cognitive dissonance or I don't. You can't have it and not have it at the same time.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2014 10:07:12 GMT -5
i'm gonna disagree that "Sending someone to eternal hell is murder"...when God starts handing out "the second deaths" it will be justice at play not murder... Justice? So if I'm born a Muslim or Hindu, never hear about Christ, I will burn in Hell eternally. Or if I have been abused by a Christian minister or priest, and decide to have nothing to do with Christians, I will burn in Hell eternally. That is a most peculiar notion of justice. I have a hard time coming up with a crime that would see burning in Hell eternally as a commensurate punishment. The entire thing sounds more like a convenient explanation made up by Christians to push their religion rather than coming out of any sensible notion of who God is. When you begin digging in to the passages that make reference to Hell you find that the concept of "eternal punishment" was layered on by the church hierarchy. And that makes sense to me; many churches find that fear works well as a motivator.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2014 10:10:21 GMT -5
I do not believe that God sends someone to hell. I believe by own sin we send ourselves or choose hell. (Maybe that is how I reduce my own cognitive dissonance). We choose our destiny by our own actions. There is forgiveness in this life for those who want it. Only the devil will be sent to hell. In some sense I agree with you. I believe that God will bring every work into judgement and that punishment is part of the formula. Where I come unstuck is with the notion first, of eternal punishment with no hope of rehabilitation, and second, that people who happen to not be Christians will be punished for that fact alone.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 7, 2014 11:04:47 GMT -5
For cognitive dissonance to exist you have to hold on to two (or more) contradictory viewpoints. There is zero cognitive dissonance once you let go of the "burning in Hell" scenario because the contradiction ceases to exist. How can "Burning in Hell"= the Lake of fire ceases to exist when God says forever and forever with gnashing of teeth througout Eternity?Show me the verse that has "gnashing of teeth throughout Eternity", or "eternal gnashing of teeth". The ideas are so commonplace that we string together phrases like this, but I don't see them in the Bible.
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