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Post by rational on Aug 6, 2014 20:34:34 GMT -5
Perhaps. But neither the Koran or the Sunnah even mention the practice. Female genital mutilation is not a religious practice required by the Islamic faith. Most Islamic scholars agree it's not an Islamic religious rite. I wonder how 'duty' fits religious practice. Did you read the following? I did read what you posted. And that is why I posted the following about FGM: The Koran is the foundation of Islamic Law.· It is what God revealed to the Messenger. As for the Sunnah, it is everything besides the Koran that came from God's Messenger. I think the point is that your quote mentioned what must be followed (the words of the prophet) and mine stated that FGM was not mentioned in the words of the prophet. According to WHO: Though no religious scripts prescribe the practice, practitioners often believe the practice has religious support.
Religious leaders take varying positions with regard to FGM: some promote it, some consider it irrelevant to religion, and others contribute to its elimination.
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2014 21:29:56 GMT -5
In that respect I suppose I could judge all sects of religions the same. There are Muslims that speak out against Muslim sects that are being the extremist factions and genital mutilation etc. There are some Christians that speak out against Westboro, but not that many against Pat Robertson. Should I judge all of Christianity by what Pat says and does? Does their silence regarding him mean they all condone him? No Christians are standing up and stopping any of these groups from functioning. So should be expect that the Muslims stand up and try to stop their undesirables from functioning? In a sense they are doing more of it than Christians and that's why fixit always talks about Muslims killing Muslims. They are standing up to other Muslim sects. What I pay attention to is whether the religious/denominational leaders speak out against radical/extreme behavior. It is a better indication of a churches view than the individuals. Much like here, where members of the truth fellowship are simply stating their views, not those of the overseers. Although we have had at least one overseer post here, as well as several individual workers. So more a church statement. Makes sense. I didn't know an overseer posts here. I figured some workers likely did.
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Post by Mary on Aug 7, 2014 3:41:19 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Aug 7, 2014 6:01:41 GMT -5
Mary, its pathetic how the Security Council and much of the World's media is making a big issue of Gaza while a far greater tragedy is unfolding in Lebanon, Syria and especially northern Iraq. The Kurds are outgunned by the Islamic State and will collapse quite quickly unless they get substantial military aid within the next few days. The Kurds are pro-western and a pretty sensible bunch I think. It would be tragic to see them abandoned. They're right on NATO's doorstep but Turkey under Erdogan is pretty unreliable. Tens of thousands of civilians are facing genocide and extermination: edition.cnn.com/2014/08/06/opinion/ghitis-yazidi-islamic-state-genocide-iraq/
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Post by fixit on Aug 7, 2014 23:11:15 GMT -5
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 7, 2014 23:11:10 GMT -5
Mary, its pathetic how the Security Council and much of the World's media is making a big issue of Gaza while a far greater tragedy is unfolding in Lebanon, Syria and especially northern Iraq. The Security Council does the same for all of these situations. Your problem is that your media gives Gaza more attention that it does Iraq and Syria right now. But have no fear, Christians are being persecuted by ISIS in Iraw now, so we will get a lot more news on them now. Especially because the US has decided to bomb the people who are persecuting the Christian victims in Iraq. They didn't do that for the civilian victims in Gaza, did they? The only thing you know about the Kurds is that they are pro-Western. They're still Muslims, and the reason they seem to be pro-Western is because they were persecuted by Sadam's dictatorship because they weren't Arabs. Mostly what they want from the West is firepower. But persecution aside, ISIS has far less interest in Kurdish territory than Christian territory in Iraq because the Kurdish territory is not "oil" territory, and neither does ISIS consider it Arab territory. That's a thought. But in terms of persecution, you could think about it as Christians reaping what they sowed when they supported Hitler. Nothing personal, of course. It was sure to happen eventually.
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Post by fixit on Aug 7, 2014 23:13:39 GMT -5
The only thing you know about the Kurds is that they are pro-Western. You don't know what I know about the Kurds.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 7, 2014 23:34:59 GMT -5
The only thing you know about the Kurds is that they are pro-Western. You don't know what I know about the Kurds. Okay - you tell me.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 7, 2014 23:41:08 GMT -5
Of course. We started the whole mess by declaring war on a false premise -- and this is the expected outcome all along. Invading and tearing the country all to pieces was not the worst of the matter -- knowing nothing about how to establish a stable government to replace the one they already had is what allowed the bullies to come in and run the show. Sounds like what Israel did in Gaza, doesn't it? Oh for the days when the Allies rebuilt Germany and Japan -- it seems to have been all worth it. And the Japanese aren't even Christians -- what a waste. One good thing about America is that we get and/or take a lot of credit for a lot of things that we don't do.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 7, 2014 23:48:31 GMT -5
There's a book y'all should read.
Moss, Candida. The Myth of Persecution. Harper Collins, New York, 2013
It's not only 261 pages, mostly dry scholarly type of writing. But if you read the Conclusions at the ends of the chapters, and the last (concluding) full chapter, it may prompt you to read the details in some of the other chapters.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 7, 2014 23:53:48 GMT -5
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Post by Mary on Aug 8, 2014 2:56:35 GMT -5
I had a Kurdish friend here teaching me Arabic. He was a member of Parliament in Saddam's government in the 1970s. He later started his own political party called The Kurdish revolutionary party - I think it was called. He was a professor at the university of Kurdistan before coming here. He and his brother were in a hotel and his brother did not wake up next morning (poisoned) so my friend left his home in the middle of the night with just the clothes on his back and spent weeks walking until he reached Turkey. There he applied as a refugee to come to our country and came. He said to me he would go back to Iraq when they got Saddam, so when they got Saddam he went back. He would write articles to the Kurdish newspaper. He continued writing when he went home again and one day I read in the news that he was shot there because of what he had written in an article. And he thought he was safe!!! RIP Sharif. I just did a search for him and here it is. www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles/misc2008/3/kirkukkurdistan339.htmInteresting that they didn't know why he had a NZ passport on him when he was killed. He lived here for over 4 years - that was why - but not many from there knew he was here. He was basically in hiding from Iraq.
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Post by fixit on Aug 8, 2014 3:55:19 GMT -5
Of course. We started the whole mess by declaring war on a false premise -- and this is the expected outcome all along. Invading and tearing the country all to pieces was not the worst of the matter -- knowing nothing about how to establish a stable government to replace the one they already had is what allowed the bullies to come in and run the show. Sounds like what Israel did in Gaza, doesn't it? Oh for the days when the Allies rebuilt Germany and Japan -- it seems to have been all worth it. And the Japanese aren't even Christians -- what a waste. One good thing about America is that we get and/or take a lot of credit for a lot of things that we don't do. I agree that the occupation of Germany and Japan seems to have been worth it. The NATO effort in the Balkans seems to have been successful. The occupation of Iraq need a lot more soldiers. Coalition forces were spread too thinly to keep order and rebuild the country. I'm not sure if the Germany and Japan occupation model would work for Arabs or Muslims. They seem to be more intent on fighting the occupier than building their country. It seems that they need a Saddam or Assad to keep order. I wish it were not so, but we can't impose 21st century values on people who long for the glory days from the seventh century when Mohammad and his followers started to conquer Jewish and Christian lands. America is condemned for supporting Saddam and for overthrowing him. America is condemned for not overthrowing Assad, and would have been condemned for overthrowing him. America is condemned for overthrowing Gadaffi, and would have been condemned for allowing him to massacre his own people. I think the world is coming to realize that the Islamic world wants to sort out its own problems, even if it results in a huge bloodbath between Sunni and Shia.
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Post by rational on Aug 8, 2014 8:23:38 GMT -5
Maybe the 5,300 gallons of fresh drinking water and 8,000 meals ready to eat will be a help. And some laser guided 500 pound bombs.
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Post by Jason Storebo on Aug 8, 2014 12:17:00 GMT -5
Sure some persecution of Christians is taking place, in a few places. The majority is Muslim killing Muslim; and of course Jews and Muslims.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 8, 2014 14:49:30 GMT -5
Of course. We started the whole mess by declaring war on a false premise -- and this is the expected outcome all along. Invading and tearing the country all to pieces was not the worst of the matter -- knowing nothing about how to establish a stable government to replace the one they already had is what allowed the bullies to come in and run the show. Sounds like what Israel did in Gaza, doesn't it? Oh for the days when the Allies rebuilt Germany and Japan -- it seems to have been all worth it. And the Japanese aren't even Christians -- what a waste. One good thing about America is that we get and/or take a lot of credit for a lot of things that we don't do. I agree that the occupation of Germany and Japan seems to have been worth it. The NATO effort in the Balkans seems to have been successful. The occupation of Iraq need a lot more soldiers. Coalition forces were spread too thinly to keep order and rebuild the country. I'm not sure if the Germany and Japan occupation model would work for Arabs or Muslims. They seem to be more intent on fighting the occupier than building their country. It seems that they need a Saddam or Assad to keep order. I wish it were not so, but we can't impose 21st century values on people who long for the glory days from the seventh century when Mohammad and his followers started to conquer Jewish and Christian lands. America is condemned for supporting Saddam and for overthrowing him. America is condemned for not overthrowing Assad, and would have been condemned for overthrowing him. America is condemned for overthrowing Gadaffi, and would have been condemned for allowing him to massacre his own people. I think the world is coming to realize that the Islamic world wants to sort out its own problems, even if it results in a huge bloodbath between Sunni and Shia. You're getting closer and closer to the answer all the time. I think the world is coming to realize that the Christian world wanted to solve its own problems all along, even if it resulted in centuries of blood baths between Catholics and Protestants. Thank goodness they didn't have anyone like the Western Allies colonizing them for centuries, and then trying to convince them they didn't even know how to divide up their own lands. Gosh, Belgium had no reason to exist at all.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 8, 2014 14:51:53 GMT -5
Sure some persecution of Christians is taking place, in a few places. The majority is Muslim killing Muslim; and of course Jews and Muslims. Don't forget all the Christians killing Muslims.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 8, 2014 14:53:03 GMT -5
Maybe the 5,300 gallons of fresh drinking water and 8,000 meals ready to eat will be a help. And some laser guided 500 pound bombs. But you get more bang for your buck with bombs.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 8, 2014 14:56:17 GMT -5
You don't know what I know about the Kurds. Okay - you tell me. Don't tell me I don't know what you know about Kurds -- and then not tell me what you know. I wanted to know.
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Post by fixit on Aug 8, 2014 15:00:46 GMT -5
Don't tell me I don't know what you know about Kurds -- and then not tell me what you know. I wanted to know. I don't want to come across as a know-it-all...
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 8, 2014 15:24:48 GMT -5
Don't tell me I don't know what you know about Kurds -- and then not tell me what you know. I wanted to know. I don't want to come across as a know-it-all... WOW! What a cop-out! Transparent as glass!
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Post by snow on Aug 8, 2014 17:20:16 GMT -5
Don't tell me I don't know what you know about Kurds -- and then not tell me what you know. I wanted to know. I don't want to come across as a know-it-all... No need to worry about that, we'd love ya anyway!
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Post by fixit on Aug 8, 2014 18:20:31 GMT -5
I don't want to come across as a know-it-all... No need to worry about that, we'd love ya anyway! You're so sweet Snow! Mankind has a sorry history of wars, genocides, and discrimination along racial, political and religious lines. Thankfully many countries today have separated church and state and have embraced human rights, democracy and individual freedoms. My concern is that religious fanatics are trying to destroy that. Islamic extremists like to position their fight as Muslim against Christian, but really its political Islam that looks backward vs secular democracy and modernity.
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Post by snow on Aug 8, 2014 18:49:01 GMT -5
No need to worry about that, we'd love ya anyway! You're so sweet Snow! Mankind has a sorry history of wars, genocides, and discrimination along racial, political and religious lines. Thankfully many countries today have separated church and state and have embraced human rights, democracy and individual freedoms. My concern is that religious fanatics are trying to destroy that. Islamic extremists like to position their fight as Muslim against Christian, but really its political Islam that looks backward vs secular democracy and modernity. Yes, we have a sad history that's for sure. It's hard to separate religion from politics in the sense that what we believe will spill over into our politics. I just started an interesting book, 'The Age of Atheists' by Peter Watson. It starts out relating the horrific things religion have made people do over the ages of course. But it also says that no matter how secular we were predicted to be moving towards, it isn't happening. People are just becoming religious in non traditional ways. I think it's more what we are raised to believe, the culture etc. that guides our beliefs that make us behave in the ways we do. So while it's not directly the fault of religion, it is indirectly the influence. Wish we could change that, but change comes very slow if we aren't even aware of how we think is contributing to the continued bloodshed or just plain unrest or hard feelings toward each other. We definitely are a product of our upbringing. Which is probably why we won't see a lot of peace anytime soon, considering that yet another generation is being raised to hate each other.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 8, 2014 19:17:37 GMT -5
Don't tell me I don't know what you know about Kurds -- and then not tell me what you know. I wanted to know. I don't want to come across as a know-it-all... I never thought of that excuse before. I'm gonna save it.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 8, 2014 19:51:44 GMT -5
The people in Iraq that are needing food dropped to them aren't Christians -- they're Yazidis. Christians don't like them. They've called them Devil worshipers for centuries.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 8, 2014 22:00:38 GMT -5
No need to worry about that, we'd love ya anyway! You're so sweet Snow! Mankind has a sorry history of wars, genocides, and discrimination along racial, political and religious lines. Thankfully many countries today have separated church and state and have embraced human rights, democracy and individual freedoms. My concern is that religious fanatics are trying to destroy that. Islamic extremists like to position their fight as Muslim against Christian, but really its political Islam that looks backward vs secular democracy and modernity. It's ironic, however, that some countries with "separation of church and state" can have far less separation of church and state that countries where religion is constitutionally connected to the state. The USA's constitution calls for such separation, but we have politicians campaigning on pro/anti-religious platforms ... while in the UK the king or queen is constitutionally the head of the Anglican church, but people scoff openly at politicians who attempt to push religious agendas. In Germany (constitution written by the USA, in fact) the state collects tithes for the various religious groups. No religion prescribes democracy -- it is people who make a democracy. "Demo" means "people", and it works as well as level of sophistication of the general population.
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Post by fixit on Aug 8, 2014 23:55:32 GMT -5
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