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Post by fixit on Jul 19, 2014 6:15:07 GMT -5
Snow, since Virgo's answer to you included no additional clarification, allow me! Virgo appears to be holding the standard 2x2 position: One's status as a "follower of Jesus" is an on-and-off affair. When a person lies, he is not following Jesus. Once the lie is past, and if his next utterance is truth, he is a follower of Jesus again, albeit with a black mark for having told the lie. Then, if he repents of the lie and asks for forgiveness, the black mark is wiped away by his loving Father who forgives sin. I think that's why there has traditionally been a hesitancy for 2x2ers to call themselves "Christians" -- by this rationale, they are only Christians when they are not sinning. hmmmmmm, where's that verse about sinning presumptously? Is it the one in Psalms you were thinking of? Exodus 21:14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die. Numbers 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Deuteronomy 1:43 So I spake unto you; and ye would not hear, but rebelled against the commandment of the Lord, and went presumptuously up into the hill. Deuteronomy 17:12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the Lord thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel. Deuteronomy 17:13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously. Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Psalm 19:13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. 2 Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 19, 2014 15:14:54 GMT -5
Thanks Fixit, It is the one in Psalm 19:13 that I was referring to. My thinking is that a presumptuous sin is committed in the belief that God will forgive at a later date. A bit like Virgo's I wasn't a Christian when I sinned but tonight when I am asking forgiveness I am.
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Post by déjà vu on Jul 28, 2014 11:30:18 GMT -5
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Post by déjà vu on Aug 4, 2014 22:47:04 GMT -5
(2)
The Lord's Prayer (very different and true!) > > > > BY A 15-year-old SCHOOL KID Who got an A+ for this > entry > > (TOTALLY AWESOM> The Lord's Prayer Is not allowed in most US Public > schools any more. A kid > > in WINNIPEG, Manitoba, wrote the following NEW School > Prayer: > > > > > Now I sit me down in school > > > > Where praying is against the rule > > > > For this great nation under God > > > > Finds mention of Him very odd. > > > > If scripture now the class recites, > > > > It violates the Bill of Rights. > > > > And anytime my head I bow > > > > Becomes a Federal matter now. > > > > Our hair can be purple, orange or green, > > > > That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.. > > > > The law is specific, the law is precise. > > > > Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice. > > > > For praying in a public hall > > > > Might offend someone with no faith at all.. > > > > In silence alone we must meditate, > > > > God's name is prohibited by the Province. > > > > We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks, > > > > And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks... > > > > They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible. > > > > To quote the Good Book makes me liable. > > > > We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen, > > > > And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King. > > > > It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong, > > > > We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong.. > > > > We can get our condoms and birth controls, > > Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles... > > > > But the Ten Commandments are not allowed, > > No word of God must reach this crowd. > > > > It's scary here I must confess, > > > > When chaos reigns the school's a mess. > > > > So, Lord, this silent plea I make: > > > > Should I be shot; My soul please take! > > > > Amen > > > > > > > > If you aren't ashamed to do this, Please pass this > on.. > > > > Jesus said, 'If you are ashamed of me, I will be > ashamed of you before my > > Father.' > >
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 4, 2014 23:42:55 GMT -5
I would be concerned if the Lord's Prayer was allowed in our US schools.
I would be concerned that the Civics Class in a US Public High School wouldn't be doing their job very well by not teaching the religion phrase of the First Amendment of our Constitution.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or the prohibiting the free exercise thereof.,"
Now before anyone lambasts me, remember I said Public High School which my tax dollars go to support.
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Post by rational on Aug 5, 2014 8:40:16 GMT -5
(2) The Lord's Prayer (very different and true!) > > > > BY A 15-year-old SCHOOL KID Who got an A+ for this > entry Or was it a 12 year old student from Boston or a teen in Arizona? An A+ for this? In a Canadian school> Entry into what? This is error ridden and has all the marks of an urban myth and a christian attempt at distortion.
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Post by snow on Aug 5, 2014 11:20:05 GMT -5
No one needs to pray out loud anywhere. In fact Jesus said to pray in private. There is nothing wrong with learning to understand about other cultures, beliefs and religions. If a Christian prayer is allowed then all other religions should also be allowed to have their ritual. School is not about spiritual matters. It is about learning secular skills. I'm sure this is an urban myth. No one would give an a+ to a kid in school for this stuff. A good clue to that is when they changed what had been there before to province, it rhymed with nothing.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 5, 2014 13:12:06 GMT -5
No one needs to pray out loud anywhere. In fact Jesus said to pray in private. There is nothing wrong with learning to understand about other cultures, beliefs and religions. If a Christian prayer is allowed then all other religions should also be allowed to have their ritual. School is not about spiritual matters. It is about learning secular skills. I'm sure this is an urban myth. No one would give an a+ to a kid in school for this stuff. A good clue to that is when they changed what had been there before to province, it rhymed with nothing. I agree,
Another thought, -if the churches were doing a good job taking care of the religious teaching which is their job, -why should the schools even have to take on that responsibility as well?
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Post by snow on Aug 5, 2014 18:12:16 GMT -5
No one needs to pray out loud anywhere. In fact Jesus said to pray in private. There is nothing wrong with learning to understand about other cultures, beliefs and religions. If a Christian prayer is allowed then all other religions should also be allowed to have their ritual. School is not about spiritual matters. It is about learning secular skills. I'm sure this is an urban myth. No one would give an a+ to a kid in school for this stuff. A good clue to that is when they changed what had been there before to province, it rhymed with nothing. I agree,
Another thought, -if the churches were doing a good job taking care of the religious teaching which is their job, -why should the schools even have to take on that responsibility as well?
Exactly. No reason not to keep secular and spiritual separate, at least in public places and public schools.
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Post by magpie on Aug 5, 2014 18:14:49 GMT -5
Go try and explain to a starving mother whose dead baby you have removed to bury what crapp we argue about,a few days before that she saw her husband and three other relatives shot. If the rebel extremest muslams take power in Iraq they are going to demand that around four milliom woman are to be sexually mutilated. The ones trying to escape into Kurdistan are being shot down,why?,because they are christians. Churches all over are being burnt to the ground many followers imprisioned or killed. So next lazy one hour meeting as you think about your own heardships ask God what he wants from you,He has offered you Grace,you owe Him, get out amongst it and support those who in Gods name are risking their lives and doing something about it in Gods name. Not your "christian convention" name you pretend does not exist.The stench of death in a Kenyan refugee camp,would want you come home to a clean job like cleaning sewers. I suppose that you think Western Society is Godly,eg,inc Hollywood and its production of brain controlling filth? I heard a lady the other day say,"There is nothing worse than forgetting your mobile/(cell) phone". Try and explain that to kids sitting in the Streets of Gaza.
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Post by rational on Aug 5, 2014 19:59:00 GMT -5
Go try and explain to a starving mother whose dead baby you have removed to bury what crapp we argue about,a few days before that she saw her husband and three other relatives shot. You might explain that crapp[sic] is argued about because it is important that the government of a country is not controlled by the the religious sects of the country. She should be able to relate to to that or the danger of a country ruled by any extremist group, no matter what the religion.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 5, 2014 22:00:23 GMT -5
Go try and explain to a starving mother whose dead baby you have removed to bury what crapp we argue about,a few days before that she saw her husband and three other relatives shot. If the rebel extremest muslams take power in Iraq they are going to demand that around four milliom woman are to be sexually mutilated. The ones trying to escape into Kurdistan are being shot down,why?,because they are christians. Churches all over are being burnt to the ground many followers imprisioned or killed. So next lazy one hour meeting as you think about your own heardships ask God what he wants from you,He has offered you Grace,you owe Him, get out amongst it and support those who in Gods name are risking their lives and doing something about it in Gods name. Not your "christian convention" name you pretend does not exist. The stench of death in a Kenyan refugee camp,would want you come home to a clean job like cleaning sewers. I suppose that you think Western Society is Godly,eg,inc Hollywood and its production of brain controlling filth? I heard a lady the other day say,"There is nothing worse than forgetting your mobile/(cell) phone". Try and explain that to kids sitting in the Streets of Gaza. I'm not sure what you are replying to here, Magpie.
I am grateful that we in the US live in country that separates the governmental laws from church dictates. It wouldn't make any difference whether it was the Christian church or the Islamic church.
Fundamentalists in either could make it unbearable and have in the past for people.
If our government didn't have the wall of separation between church & state we would be in just as much danger from Christians as from Muslims.
The big difference in in the government of the countries, rather than the kind of religions.
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Post by fixit on Aug 5, 2014 23:53:18 GMT -5
If the rebel extremest muslams take power in Iraq they are going to demand that around four milliom woman are to be sexually mutilated. People on TMB seem to think sexual mutilation is nothing to do with Islam, yet the vast majority of sexual mutilation on the planet is done by Moslems. Go figure.
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2014 9:21:07 GMT -5
If the rebel extremest muslams take power in Iraq they are going to demand that around four milliom woman are to be sexually mutilated. People on TMB seem to think sexual mutilation is nothing to do with Islam, yet the vast majority of sexual mutilation on the planet is done by Moslems. Go figure. Don't chuck all Muslims into the same box. It's like me chucking all the Christians into the same box and saying that you are all like Pat Robertson, or Westboro Church members, or even all the TV evangelists with their multi million dollar businesses. Or maybe that's true? Judging a religion by the actions of a few sects is not fair. Or is it?
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 6, 2014 14:24:17 GMT -5
.......Judging a religion by the actions of a few sects is not fair. Or is it?
I think it is fair in some respects.
By that, I mean that if there is no outcry from others claiming the same religion, then they must in some respects condone what others do while claiming to be of the same religion.
So..... if others don't speak out against what a church such as the Westboro church does, then a person could believe that others claiming to be Christians condone such behavior.
Same with other religions.
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Post by rational on Aug 6, 2014 15:19:54 GMT -5
If the rebel extremest muslams take power in Iraq they are going to demand that around four milliom woman are to be sexually mutilated. People on TMB seem to think sexual mutilation is nothing to do with Islam, yet the vast majority of sexual mutilation on the planet is done by Moslems. Go figure. Female genital mutilation is found only within and adjacent to Muslim communities, but it is not required by Islam or practiced in most Muslim countries, and prevalence rates vary according to ethnicity, not religion. There is no reference to it in the Qur'an.American Sociological Review, Gerry Mackie, Ending Footbinding and InfibulationOne could probably support an argument that it is not a religious requirement but a regional tradition.
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Post by fixit on Aug 6, 2014 15:19:56 GMT -5
People on TMB seem to think sexual mutilation is nothing to do with Islam, yet the vast majority of sexual mutilation on the planet is done by Moslems. Go figure. Don't chuck all Muslims into the same box. It's like me chucking all the Christians into the same box and saying that you are all like Pat Robertson, or Westboro Church members, or even all the TV evangelists with their multi million dollar businesses. Or maybe that's true? Judging a religion by the actions of a few sects is not fair. Or is it? Who said all Muslims are guilty of sexual mutilation? Not me. Many Muslims (not all Muslims) view female sexual mutilation as a religious duty.
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Post by rational on Aug 6, 2014 15:24:59 GMT -5
....... Judging a religion by the actions of a few sects is not fair. Or is it?I think it is fair in some respects. By that, I mean that if there is no outcry from others claiming the same religion, then they must in some respects condone what others do while claiming to be of the same religion. So..... if others don't speak out against what a church such as the Westboro church does, then a person could believe that others claiming to be Christians condone such behavior. Same with other religions. Perhaps being identified with the extreme sects is just a cross that christians must bear.
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Post by rational on Aug 6, 2014 15:35:51 GMT -5
Many Muslims (not all Muslims) view female sexual mutilation as a religious duty. Perhaps. But neither the Koran or the Sunnah even mention the practice. Female genital mutilation is not a religious practice required by the Islamic faith. Most Islamic scholars agree it's not an Islamic religious rite. I wonder how 'duty' fits religious practice.
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Post by fixit on Aug 6, 2014 15:54:12 GMT -5
Many Muslims (not all Muslims) view female sexual mutilation as a religious duty. Perhaps. But neither the Koran or the Sunnah even mention the practice. Female genital mutilation is not a religious practice required by the Islamic faith. Most Islamic scholars agree it's not an Islamic religious rite. I wonder how 'duty' fits religious practice. Did you read the following?
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2014 16:43:25 GMT -5
....... Judging a religion by the actions of a few sects is not fair. Or is it?I think it is fair in some respects. By that, I mean that if there is no outcry from others claiming the same religion, then they must in some respects condone what others do while claiming to be of the same religion. So..... if others don't speak out against what a church such as the Westboro church does, then a person could believe that others claiming to be Christians condone such behavior. Same with other religions. In that respect I suppose I could judge all sects of religions the same. There are Muslims that speak out against Muslim sects that are being the extremist factions and genital mutilation etc. There are some Christians that speak out against Westboro, but not that many against Pat Robertson. Should I judge all of Christianity by what Pat says and does? Does their silence regarding him mean they all condone him? No Christians are standing up and stopping any of these groups from functioning. So should be expect that the Muslims stand up and try to stop their undesirables from functioning? In a sense they are doing more of it than Christians and that's why fixit always talks about Muslims killing Muslims. They are standing up to other Muslim sects.
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2014 16:46:56 GMT -5
Don't chuck all Muslims into the same box. It's like me chucking all the Christians into the same box and saying that you are all like Pat Robertson, or Westboro Church members, or even all the TV evangelists with their multi million dollar businesses. Or maybe that's true? Judging a religion by the actions of a few sects is not fair. Or is it? Who said all Muslims are guilty of sexual mutilation? Not me. Many Muslims (not all Muslims) view female sexual mutilation as a religious duty. It is practiced by some Muslims, not many Muslims, and it is not a requirement of the Quran. So that is why I asked if we should judge all Muslims the same because of the actions of some of the Extremists. Scott mentioned that he thought if they didn't speak out against it, we can assume they condone it. Same with Christians then. If they don't speak out against some their more extreme factions then they must condone it?
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Post by fixit on Aug 6, 2014 17:12:59 GMT -5
Who said all Muslims are guilty of sexual mutilation? Not me. Many Muslims (not all Muslims) view female sexual mutilation as a religious duty. It is practiced by some Muslims, not many Muslims, and it is not a requirement of the Quran. So that is why I asked if we should judge all Muslims the same because of the actions of some of the Extremists. Scott mentioned that he thought if they didn't speak out against it, we can assume they condone it. Same with Christians then. If they don't speak out against some their more extreme factions then they must condone it? OK, it is practiced by some Muslims. More than 125 million girls and women alive today have been cut in the 29 countries in Africa and Middle East where FGM is concentrated. Non-Muslims also practice FGM, but its mostly practiced by Muslims. PS: I'm surprised that you seem defensive of such a cruel practice. It's proven to be from the prophet, according to the following Muslim website:
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 17:33:29 GMT -5
....... Judging a religion by the actions of a few sects is not fair. Or is it?I think it is fair in some respects. By that, I mean that if there is no outcry from others claiming the same religion, then they must in some respects condone what others do while claiming to be of the same religion. So..... if others don't speak out against what a church such as the Westboro church does, then a person could believe that others claiming to be Christians condone such behavior. Same with other religions. In that respect I suppose I could judge all sects of religions the same. There are Muslims that speak out against Muslim sects that are being the extremist factions and genital mutilation etc. There are some Christians that speak out against Westboro, but not that many against Pat Robertson. Should I judge all of Christianity by what Pat says and does? Does their silence regarding him mean they all condone him? No Christians are standing up and stopping any of these groups from functioning. So should be expect that the Muslims stand up and try to stop their undesirables from functioning? In a sense they are doing more of it than Christians and that's why fixit always talks about Muslims killing Muslims. They are standing up to other Muslim sects. you mean quotes like these? politicalhumor.about.com/od/funnyquotes/a/patrobertson.htm
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2014 18:32:50 GMT -5
It is practiced by some Muslims, not many Muslims, and it is not a requirement of the Quran. So that is why I asked if we should judge all Muslims the same because of the actions of some of the Extremists. Scott mentioned that he thought if they didn't speak out against it, we can assume they condone it. Same with Christians then. If they don't speak out against some their more extreme factions then they must condone it? OK, it is practiced by some Muslims. More than 125 million girls and women alive today have been cut in the 29 countries in Africa and Middle East where FGM is concentrated. Non-Muslims also practice FGM, but its mostly practiced by Muslims. PS: I'm surprised that you seem defensive of such a cruel practice. It's proven to be from the prophet, according to the following Muslim website: Nope not at all defensive of the practice. It is just one more aspect of religious fervor that I detest. The website may say that, but the Quran does not require it. A lot of what the different sects within Islam believes and practices come from hadiths which is just an interpretation. It was practiced by some Arab tribes before Mohammed and it still more a regional practice.
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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2014 18:40:05 GMT -5
In that respect I suppose I could judge all sects of religions the same. There are Muslims that speak out against Muslim sects that are being the extremist factions and genital mutilation etc. There are some Christians that speak out against Westboro, but not that many against Pat Robertson. Should I judge all of Christianity by what Pat says and does? Does their silence regarding him mean they all condone him? No Christians are standing up and stopping any of these groups from functioning. So should be expect that the Muslims stand up and try to stop their undesirables from functioning? In a sense they are doing more of it than Christians and that's why fixit always talks about Muslims killing Muslims. They are standing up to other Muslim sects. you mean quotes like these? politicalhumor.about.com/od/funnyquotes/a/patrobertson.htmPat also said that Katrina devastation was caused by legalized abortion and God has started to punish the States etc.
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Post by fixit on Aug 6, 2014 18:59:10 GMT -5
OK, it is practiced by some Muslims. More than 125 million girls and women alive today have been cut in the 29 countries in Africa and Middle East where FGM is concentrated. Non-Muslims also practice FGM, but its mostly practiced by Muslims. PS: I'm surprised that you seem defensive of such a cruel practice. It's proven to be from the prophet, according to the following Muslim website: Nope not at all defensive of the practice. It is just one more aspect of religious fervor that I detest. The website may say that, but the Quran does not require it. A lot of what the different sects within Islam believes and practices come from hadiths which is just an interpretation. It was practiced by some Arab tribes before Mohammed and it still more a regional practice. Yes, its a regional practice. It just happens to be the Islamic regions of the world.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 6, 2014 19:10:31 GMT -5
....... Judging a religion by the actions of a few sects is not fair. Or is it?I think it is fair in some respects. By that, I mean that if there is no outcry from others claiming the same religion, then they must in some respects condone what others do while claiming to be of the same religion. So..... if others don't speak out against what a church such as the Westboro church does, then a person could believe that others claiming to be Christians condone such behavior. Same with other religions. In that respect I suppose I could judge all sects of religions the same. There are Muslims that speak out against Muslim sects that are being the extremist factions and genital mutilation etc. There are some Christians that speak out against Westboro, but not that many against Pat Robertson. Should I judge all of Christianity by what Pat says and does? Does their silence regarding him mean they all condone him? No Christians are standing up and stopping any of these groups from functioning. So should be expect that the Muslims stand up and try to stop their undesirables from functioning? In a sense they are doing more of it than Christians and that's why fixit always talks about Muslims killing Muslims. They are standing up to other Muslim sects. What I pay attention to is whether the religious/denominational leaders speak out against radical/extreme behavior. It is a better indication of a churches view than the individuals. Much like here, where members of the truth fellowship are simply stating their views, not those of the overseers. Although we have had at least one overseer post here, as well as several individual workers.
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