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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 9, 2014 0:06:59 GMT -5
Undoubtedly a lot of Muslims have fled too. It's too bad the West wouldn't join up with ISIS in Syria, they might get rid of Bashir Assad. Of course, the West has one touchy little problem with getting rid of Assad -- Syrian Christians are not on the side of the Syrian rebels.
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Post by fixit on Aug 9, 2014 0:23:31 GMT -5
Undoubtedly a lot of Muslims have fled too. It's too bad the West wouldn't join up with ISIS in Syria, they might get rid of Bashir Assad. Of course, the West has one touchy little problem with getting rid of Assad -- Syrian Christians are not on the side of the Syrian rebels. Assad has attacked civilians with barrel bombs and WMD. However it seems that Muslim-majority countries need strong leaders to keep order, so it might be best that he remains in power.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 9, 2014 2:37:46 GMT -5
Undoubtedly a lot of Muslims have fled too. It's too bad the West wouldn't join up with ISIS in Syria, they might get rid of Bashir Assad. Of course, the West has one touchy little problem with getting rid of Assad -- Syrian Christians are not on the side of the Syrian rebels. Assad has attacked civilians with barrel bombs and WMD. However it seems that Muslim-majority countries need strong leaders to keep order, so it might be best that he remains in power. Kind of like Saddam Hussein.
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Post by fixit on Aug 9, 2014 18:39:23 GMT -5
It seems that the world is starting to wake up to the need to confront ISIS.
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Post by fixit on Aug 9, 2014 18:48:40 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2014 18:55:37 GMT -5
its becuase of the crusades and the inquisition and eric rudolph/army of God and timothy mcveigh most recently...
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 9, 2014 20:19:39 GMT -5
It seems that the world is starting to wake up to the need to confront ISIS. Yes, fixit, people are slow to learn. But this time they caught on far faster than they caught on to Hitler. But there's a lesson in this for fundamentalists. History is repeating itself. The Sunnis in Iraq used to dominate the country when Saddam Hussein was in power -- because he was a Sunni. But the majority of the people in Iraq are Shia. Normally what happens with those who lose "special privilege" -- they feel cheated. The Sunnis of course knew they were being treated special, but why worry because they could ignore the plight of the disenfranchised. But along came "democracy", and everyone was supposed to be recognized as equals. In cases like this, the previously privileged have one of two responses: (1) They accept that it is reasonable to let go of "special" privilege because it is the decent and wise thing to do. Or (2) they insist that the country used to be theirs, and the "disenfranchised" had stolen it "all" from them, and they are bitter about that. Then the term "persecution" raises its head. Now, there is such a thing as valid persecution. But group (2) above is NOT being persecuted by this new state of affairs -- not by any standard of fairness, and most certainly not in a democratic society. But that doesn't appease group (2), and this is really unfortunate, and this is why. When they can identify the previously disenfranchised as a religious group, they fall into the trap of feeling like they are being "persecuted" for their religion. As long as you have disagreements with others, you can consent to negotiate how you are going to accommodate each other. But when you use the word "persecution", you raise the situation from one of disagreements, to a struggle between "right and wrong" (and in terms of religion, that means "good and evil"). And that is what fundamentalist religion is all about -- good an evil, and you do not negotiate with evil. This justifies pushing back the forces of "evil". But fundamentalists don't raise armies -- they marry themselves in desperation to something that has the power to force back the evil, and accept their means of doing that, even if it is against their own principles. Kind of like "the end justifies the means". Of course, no one thinks there's a real problem with the whole scheme they have going on, because the "something that has the power to push back" has not yet demonstrated how it will push back. Perfect Example: Sunni tribal groups in Iraq allied with ISIS to correct the wrongs that had been done to them (the Sunnis) when Saddam was got, and ISIS came with a solid Sunni banner and the means to push back, and now ISIS is eradicating the evil they were expected to eradicate -- AND THE PEOPLE WHO WELCOMED THEM HAVE LOST COMPLETE CONTROL OVER THEM - THE SUNNI TRIBES ARE NOT BEING PERSECUTED ANY MORE, THEY'RE BEING USED AND ABUSED AND IN THE END WILL BE SERIOUSLY EMBARRASSED. Now - who is really getting persecuted here? But remember, group (2) used to call group (1) liberals and traitors, but it's not group (1) that is tearing the country apart now. Good example: Germans, proud of their heritage, fell prey to the Allies at the end of WWI, and they really were in desperate poverty and left with no possible way to get out of it. Someone came along with the message from the past, the glory of the fatherland. Everyone is patriotic, and no one feels persecuted because they're all in it together. But along comes this guy blaming it on religion, and identified the lack of money as persecution of the German people by the Jews. Then the rhetoric ceased to be "how do we get out of this desperate poverty", and became "push back the evil Jews and Communists" and get our country back. Of course, being good Christians they had no army, so they welcomed IN A DEMOCRATIC MANNER the man who carried solid Christian and German banners, and had the clout to get the job done. -- AND THE PEOPLE WHO WELCOMED HIM LOST COMPLETE CONTROL OVER HIM - THEY WEREN'T BEING PERSECUTED ANY MORE, THEY WERE BEING USED AND ABUSED AND IN THE END WERE SERIOUSLY EMBARRASSED. And remember, the Germans who said the Nazis were wrong were called traitors, and the Christian world tacitly agreed. This is the weakness of fundamentalist ideology when applied to the real world.
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Post by snow on Aug 9, 2014 20:47:20 GMT -5
So many genocides, so little intervention. No one helped in Rwanda either. In Robert Fisk's book 'The Great War for Civilization' he goes into many more genocides that no one intervened with either. Maybe you need to be a certain religion to get help? I don't know. I just hope that everyone that needs help will get it from those who can offer it, no matter what religion they are. After all, they are all humans and that is all that should matter as far as I'm concerned. www.unitedhumanrights.org/genocide/genocide_in_rwanda.htm
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Post by fixit on Aug 9, 2014 21:20:54 GMT -5
So many genocides, so little intervention. No one helped in Rwanda either. In Robert Fisk's book 'The Great War for Civilization' he goes into many more genocides that no one intervened with either. Maybe you need to be a certain religion to get help? I don't know. I just hope that everyone that needs help will get it from those who can offer it, no matter what religion they are. After all, they are all humans and that is all that should matter as far as I'm concerned. www.unitedhumanrights.org/genocide/genocide_in_rwanda.htmI'm hoping that this will wake the world up. The jihadis will do the same in western countries if this evil is not confronted. Many of these masked thugs have western passports, and could return to a neighborhood near you. Obama says that America can't fix all of the injustice in the world, but its good to see that he's stepping up to the plate with this unfolding genocide. 2,000 murders in one day is pretty serious stuff.
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Post by snow on Aug 9, 2014 21:50:50 GMT -5
fixit, I think if all the countries in the world would step up together, they could make some pretty quick changes. Everyone seems to think, this isn't our problem, or we shouldn't get involved. But I believe we really could do something if we united and decided to do something together about these things. The problem sometimes is if it's considered to be a religious belief. Then people are reluctant to do anything to offend their beliefs because if they do, they scream persecution. I like what Bob wrote about persecution. It's a word that is used all too often in the religious aspect. When it becomes a war against evil, there is no negotiation possible. We need to spend less time being afraid we are going to offend someone's religious beliefs and do more about making them understand that some of those beliefs are not acceptable ways to function in this world. Ordering a fatwa is an example. Allowing sharia law in non-Muslim countries is another imo. Allowing any religious/secular practice that harms needs to be stopped, but that list is so long I don't have much hope of that ever happening.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 9, 2014 22:00:58 GMT -5
Fixit -- Shame on you. Have you never heard of the Jewish Holocaust? Where do you live, anyway, that you never heard about Christians slaughtering people?
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Post by fixit on Aug 9, 2014 22:10:16 GMT -5
Fixit -- Shame on you. Have you never heard of the Jewish Holocaust? Where do you live, anyway, that you never heard about Christians slaughtering people? Are you suggesting that the Nazis were Christians? I agree that much evil has been committed behind a mask of Christianity in the past, but Islamic terror is a much greater danger in the 21st century.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2014 22:47:47 GMT -5
Fixit -- Shame on you. Have you never heard of the Jewish Holocaust? Where do you live, anyway, that you never heard about Christians slaughtering people? Are you suggesting that the Nazis were Christians? I agree that much evil has been committed behind a mask of Christianity in the past, but Islamic terror is a much greater danger in the 21st century. i don't know about the leadership or the SS units but the people of germany were christian... yes radical islam is a much greater danger to all of us...
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 9, 2014 23:30:23 GMT -5
Fixit -- Shame on you. Have you never heard of the Jewish Holocaust? Where do you live, anyway, that you never heard about Christians slaughtering people? Are you suggesting that the Nazis were Christians?I agree that much evil has been committed behind a mask of Christianity in the past, but Islamic terror is a much greater danger in the 21st century. Are you suggesting ISIS are Muslims? Of course the Nazis were Christians -- if they weren't Christians do you think the Nazis would have had anything to do with them? The Nazis hated everything but Christians. If Christians are going to call ISIS Muslims, then Christians have to call the Nazis Christians. Christians don't have a special dispensation to And of course Islamic terror is a much greater danger in the 21st century -- so far. The 20th century was the century of Christian terror. And the 21st century isn't very old yet -- there's a lot of Christian terror in the making if we don't wake up in time to stop it.
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Post by fixit on Aug 10, 2014 1:11:53 GMT -5
Are you suggesting that the Nazis were Christians?I agree that much evil has been committed behind a mask of Christianity in the past, but Islamic terror is a much greater danger in the 21st century. Are you suggesting ISIS are Muslims? Of course the Nazis were Christians -- if they weren't Christians do you think the Nazis would have had anything to do with them? The Nazis hated everything but Christians. If Christians are going to call ISIS Muslims, then Christians have to call the Nazis Christians. Christians don't have a special dispensation to And of course Islamic terror is a much greater danger in the 21st century -- so far. The 20th century was the century of Christian terror. And the 21st century isn't very old yet -- there's a lot of Christian terror in the making if we don't wake up in time to stop it. Most of the terror of the 20th century was performed by Atheist regimes. The Nazi's didn't yell "God is great!" after they slit people's throats.
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Post by fixit on Aug 10, 2014 1:17:20 GMT -5
This is scary... A big part of the problem is hate sermons:
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Post by fixit on Aug 10, 2014 5:00:49 GMT -5
This is the kind of hate speech that plagues the Islamic world.
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Post by rational on Aug 10, 2014 11:13:44 GMT -5
2,000 murders in one day is pretty serious stuff. It is serious. But it is certainly not the first nor the last. Remember, instant media coverage makes it seem more real than acts of genocide in the past.
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Post by rational on Aug 10, 2014 11:18:11 GMT -5
Most of the terror of the 20th century was performed by Atheist regimes. Good you limited it to the 20 th century! What did they yell?
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 10, 2014 13:30:04 GMT -5
Adolf Hitler's own words from : A Podcast For The World Wide Secular Community
–Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942). “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders.
How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.
To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross.
As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.”
So, was Hitler doing God's will? Here is a bit more of that podcast. "According to Hitler he was doing God’s will. Well, lets look at God’s will for a moment: " “Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.” 1 Samuel 15:2-3). "Isn’t that interesting? God had Saul kill EVERY man, woman, CHILD, INFANT and all the livestock. There is no telling what those EVIL livestock did to deserve death, but we do have to keep our eyes open for all deadly sheep out there!"
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 13:34:54 GMT -5
Adolf Hitler's own words from :
A Podcast For The World Wide Secular Community
–Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942).
“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders.
How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.
To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross.
As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.”
So, was Hitler doing God's will? Here is a bit more of that podcast.
"According to Hitler he was doing God’s will. Well, lets look at God’s will for a moment: "
“Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.” 1 Samuel 15:2-3).
"Isn’t that interesting? God had Saul kill EVERY man, woman, CHILD, INFANT and all the livestock. There is no telling what those EVIL livestock did to deserve death, but we do have to keep our eyes open for all deadly sheep out there!"
after reading that i can see hitler wasn't a christian...
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 10, 2014 13:45:36 GMT -5
Adolf Hitler's own words from :
A Podcast For The World Wide Secular Community
–Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942).
“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders.
How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.
To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross.
As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.”
So, was Hitler doing God's will? Here is a bit more of that podcast.
"According to Hitler he was doing God’s will. Well, lets look at God’s will for a moment: "
“Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.” 1 Samuel 15:2-3).
"Isn’t that interesting? God had Saul kill EVERY man, woman, CHILD, INFANT and all the livestock. There is no telling what those EVIL livestock did to deserve death, but we do have to keep our eyes open for all deadly sheep out there!"
after reading that i can see hitler wasn't a christian... Then what about 1 Samuel 15:2-3?
Was that not God's work?
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Post by fixit on Aug 10, 2014 14:36:59 GMT -5
fixit, I think if all the countries in the world would step up together, they could make some pretty quick changes. Everyone seems to think, this isn't our problem, or we shouldn't get involved. But I believe we really could do something if we united and decided to do something together about these things. The problem sometimes is if it's considered to be a religious belief. Then people are reluctant to do anything to offend their beliefs because if they do, they scream persecution. I like what Bob wrote about persecution. It's a word that is used all too often in the religious aspect. When it becomes a war against evil, there is no negotiation possible. We need to spend less time being afraid we are going to offend someone's religious beliefs and do more about making them understand that some of those beliefs are not acceptable ways to function in this world. Ordering a fatwa is an example. Allowing sharia law in non-Muslim countries is another imo. Allowing any religious/secular practice that harms needs to be stopped, but that list is so long I don't have much hope of that ever happening. What we're seeing is a power vacuum due to weak leadership of the civilized world. Obama is emphatic that American combat troops won't return to fight in Iraq, so Islamists know they can get away with genocide.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 14:51:26 GMT -5
after reading that i can see hitler wasn't a christian... Then what about 1 Samuel 15:2-3?
Was that not God's work?yes it was Gods work and righteous at that for whatever it was the amalekites had done...but hitler had no authority to destroy the jews we live in christian times and are not suppose to do that anymore...
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Post by fixit on Aug 10, 2014 15:09:18 GMT -5
after reading that i can see hitler wasn't a christian... Then what about 1 Samuel 15:2-3?
Was that not God's work?
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Post by rational on Aug 10, 2014 15:10:49 GMT -5
Then what about 1 Samuel 15:2-3?
Was that not God's work? yes it was Gods work and righteous at that for whatever it was the amalekites had done...but hitler had no authority to destroy the jews we live in christian times and are not suppose to do that anymore... Actually, I don't think god dirtied her/his hands while destroying the amalekites but he told someone else to do the killing. Are you certain god did not order Hitler to kill the people during WWII?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 15:29:04 GMT -5
yes it was Gods work and righteous at that for whatever it was the amalekites had done...but hitler had no authority to destroy the jews we live in christian times and are not suppose to do that anymore... Actually, I don't think god dirtied her/his hands while destroying the amalekites but he told someone else to do the killing. Are you certain god did not order Hitler to kill the people during WWII? yes i am sure hitler had no authority to exterminate anyone...
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 10, 2014 16:17:57 GMT -5
Are you suggesting that the Nazis were Christians? I agree that much evil has been committed behind a mask of Christianity in the past, but Islamic terror is a much greater danger in the 21st century. i don't know about the leadership or the SS units but the people of germany were christian... yes radical islam is a much greater danger to all of us... Where you live, you are far more likely to be murdered by a Christian for something as petty as a pair of running shoes.
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