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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 8:51:31 GMT -5
So when did "eldership" suddenly become the alternate word for "overseership". It's either a Down Under thing or something GT coined when he started addressing it. I had never heard of it elsewhere. In reality, both words are fitting but "eldership" is confusing because most F&Ws would first think of meeting elders when they hear that word.
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Post by stargazer on Jan 9, 2014 9:05:43 GMT -5
Actually, it has the effect, for better or worse, of downgrading the status of overseership. Sort of like conventions becoming annual meetings. If we listen carefully, sometimes we can see "in progress" resolution of hot topics.
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Post by jondough on Jan 9, 2014 9:33:14 GMT -5
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that he uses the term in order to encompass more of the Hierarchy than just the overseers. In other words, his problem is not with just the overseers, but also the second in command, and the entire hierarchy system.
Had he used the term "overseers", this would limit his complaint to just that.
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Post by stargazer on Jan 9, 2014 9:39:29 GMT -5
could be. Interesting use of the word, anyway.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 9, 2014 10:17:26 GMT -5
Imagination in humans tends to run riot when there is a vacuum of information. Graham did the right thing and allowed his letter to be published to fill that vacuum rather than let rumor and gossip fill the void- as so often happens in these matters. It seems to me that GT was doing his best to NOT be found doing what he is saying the eldership/overseership is doing and that is hiding the "real truth" under their proverbial carpet....but GT is being above board and honest in his reasons and seeking to stop the whispers in the dark about hima nd any part of his time in the work......I commend him on his open honesty!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 9, 2014 10:33:22 GMT -5
A person would have to understand that a 50 y/o worker stating the reasons for his retirement from the work as being the right and correct thing to do. He is putting it out so that rumor can not stick to him or we're hoping it doesn't....he knew how these eldership folks were rife with putting out rumor so that someone else looked bad then they were looking so good and well....
I hope he might find a place where he can find something that will feed him, clothe him and give him a place on earth until he no longer needs it! Best wishes to GT!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 10:39:26 GMT -5
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that he uses the term in order to encompass more of the Hierarchy than just the overseers. In other words, his problem is not with just the overseers, but also the second in command, and the entire hierarchy system. Had he used the term "overseers", this would limit his complaint to just that. That's quite possible as his concern is apparently the whole hierarchical system although he does seem to focus on the overseership.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 10:41:55 GMT -5
A person would have to understand that a 50 y/o worker stating the reasons for his retirement from the work as being the right and correct thing to do. He is putting it out so that rumor can not stick to him or we're hoping it doesn't....he knew how these eldership folks were rife with putting out rumor so that someone else looked bad then they were looking so good and well.... I hope he might find a place where he can find something that will feed him, clothe him and give him a place on earth until he no longer needs it! Best wishes to GT! This is completely true and it is a good example for anyone who quits the meetings or gets kicked out. Make sure you get out in front of the rumours with your story. Otherwise, your history will become something that you don't want and not true.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 9, 2014 10:56:11 GMT -5
A person would have to understand that a 50 y/o worker stating the reasons for his retirement from the work as being the right and correct thing to do. He is putting it out so that rumor can not stick to him or we're hoping it doesn't....he knew how these eldership folks were rife with putting out rumor so that someone else looked bad then they were looking so good and well.... I hope he might find a place where he can find something that will feed him, clothe him and give him a place on earth until he no longer needs it! Best wishes to GT! This is completely true and it is a good example for anyone who quits the meetings or gets kicked out. Make sure you get out in front of the rumours with your story. Otherwise, your history will become something that you don't want and not true. This is so true! Some of us have questioned having an "exit" letter....but I think in the long run, it is a good thing to do for when the rumors and ill will are over and done then the real truth of the matter will surface and hold. I know that is so by my own experience....my worst experience(that I know about) was an elderly sister worker who's shirt did hit her backside after receiving my email letter of resignation of the fellowship.....she posted an answer to it to send to her brother who at the time was a head worker in a state that had no dealings with me whatsoever. She told him that GP had kicked me out, that I had been making trouble for all the friends....everything she wrote down was a lie and she sent a "reply" instead of a "forward" and her email came to me, not her brother! I quickly forwarded it to GP and he quickly set her back on her heels by telling her that all the "lies and rumors" she was trying to spread was NOT true....that he and I parted in good faith and friendship...that our convictions of our spiritual selves did not agree and that I'd discussed with him in length about these things and she was to NOT be spreading such ill will! I have to say thank you to GP for that and I did that! My exit letter is available to anyone who wishes to read it....I think Cherie has it on the TLC temporary site!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 11:03:37 GMT -5
This is completely true and it is a good example for anyone who quits the meetings or gets kicked out. Make sure you get out in front of the rumours with your story. Otherwise, your history will become something that you don't want and not true. This is so true! Some of us have questioned having an "exit" letter....but I think in the long run, it is a good thing to do for when the rumors and ill will are over and done then the real truth of the matter will surface and hold. I know that is so by my own experience....my worst experience(that I know about) was an elderly sister worker who's shirt did hit her backside after receiving my email letter of resignation of the fellowship.....she posted an answer to it to send to her brother who at the time was a head worker in a state that had no dealings with me whatsoever. She told him that GP had kicked me out, that I had been making trouble for all the friends....everything she wrote down was a lie and she sent a "reply" instead of a "forward" and her email came to me, not her brother! I quickly forwarded it to GP and he quickly set her back on her heels by telling her that all the "lies and rumors" she was trying to spread was NOT true....that he and I parted in good faith and friendship...that our convictions of our spiritual selves did not agree and that I'd discussed with him in length about these things and she was to NOT be spreading such ill will! I have to say thank you to GP for that and I did that! My exit letter is available to anyone who wishes to read it....I think Cherie has it on the TLC temporary site! Email is a good quick way to take control and head off the rumours and false information. I would also recommend getting on the phone to your closest relatives and friends. Those are the people that others will check out the rumours, not you. So if they have the story straight, the rumours will be damaged. I would also recommend keeping the story really short. People are inclined to remember the shortest story so if that is the bad one, it has a higher chance of sticking than your long one. GT was smart to keep his email really short.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 11:27:57 GMT -5
One of the values of an exit letter is for ones own sake --- Often in the turbulence of the exit process -- even if the issues of basic moral values seem clear enough, it is easy to lose structure in our interest for explanation and understanding .. both for ourselves and of course for others. I completely understand and agree with Cleardays advise to keep an exit letter short -- many of us tend to over-explain, and this can give folks who are ultra-sensitive to 2x2 criticism added things to pick holes in.
However writing a more complete description/explanation of the exit process, for me has been an important aspect of the 'sect recovery' process that most of us exes have to go through. Putting it down on paper, forces a structured thought process that I think is important for us all - even if no one should read it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 11:42:02 GMT -5
One of the values of an exit letter is for ones own sake --- Often in the turbulence of the exit process -- even if the issues of basic moral values seem clear enough, it is easy to lose structure in our interest for explanation and understanding .. both for ourselves and of course for others. I completely understand and agree with Cleardays advise to keep an exit letter short -- many of us tend to over-explain, and this can give folks who are ultra-sensitive to 2x2 criticism added things to pick holes in. However writing a more complete description/explanation of the exit process, for me has been an important aspect of the 'sect recovery' process that most of us exes have to go through. Putting it down on paper, forces a structured thought process that I think is important for us all - even if no one should read it. I would recommend to anyone to try to develop a more non-exclusive attitude as much as possible first if there are storm clouds on the horizon, whether thinking of quitting or you see pressure coming your way. Becoming non-exclusive is one of the best ways to reduce the trauma of an event like this. In most cases it will still be difficult because you know some relationships are going to change drastically, but at least you won't have all the fears of no future except hell and no alternative life ahead.....in fact you may be able to see a lot of exciting possibilities ahead which will help with the transition.
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Post by stevnz on Jan 9, 2014 12:54:03 GMT -5
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that he uses the term in order to encompass more of the Hierarchy than just the overseers. In other words, his problem is not with just the overseers, but also the second in command, and the entire hierarchy system. Had he used the term "overseers", this would limit his complaint to just that. Yes others 'below' the overseers are also operating in the same hierarchical and ruling manner which is unscriptural. As Graham has written (in a 2011 open letter, for those who query whether such things should be posted): My conviction on these matters stands unshakeable, and I am ready to be held accountable for what has been said and written. Accordingly, by this letter I submit these matters, and also my own self, to judgment. But this judgment will not be carried out behind closed doors by the overseers, for they may not sit in judgment on matters that relate to themselves and, besides, I have proved them to be habitually dishonest. Nor will it be before the Ministry only, for by the very nature of the problem the Ministry as a body tends to be too much beholden to the views of the eldership. Judgment will not be in secret, but open before the eyes and ears of the Church. As Paul said, "For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them". If it is thought better that I no longer have a part in this Ministry then it is only needed to tell me: there is no need for a cloak-and-dagger operation to be mounted with secret scheming and special people being flown around the world.
My concerns are not at all in any personal consequences of the experiences of the years, but that these experiences have revealed that there are men in the Ministry who feel that they by Divine appointment have a place, and the right to behave in ways, that the Son of God Himself did not allow; and that these men would have themselves lifted up in the Church among those who know that our Lord Jesus Christ only is the One worthy of all honour and glory and praise and dominion. In the former they show themselves to be in error, and in the latter they would bring the whole Church into error.
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Post by stevnz on Jan 9, 2014 13:00:36 GMT -5
A person would have to understand that a 50 y/o worker stating the reasons for his retirement from the work as being the right and correct thing to do. He is putting it out so that rumor can not stick to him or we're hoping it doesn't....he knew how these eldership folks were rife with putting out rumor so that someone else looked bad then they were looking so good and well.... I hope he might find a place where he can find something that will feed him, clothe him and give him a place on earth until he no longer needs it! Best wishes to GT! I don't think Graham is concerned about rumour. He is well aware of the comments that have been circulated against him over the previous years but did not feel the need to rebut them as he knows they were not true and that truth will stand. It has been alleged that Graham was peeved because he wanted to be an overseer and wasn't chosen. That is absolutely untrue. If he wanted to be an overseer he wouldn't have written the things he has.
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Post by stevnz on Jan 9, 2014 13:02:43 GMT -5
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that he uses the term in order to encompass more of the Hierarchy than just the overseers. In other words, his problem is not with just the overseers, but also the second in command, and the entire hierarchy system. Had he used the term "overseers", this would limit his complaint to just that. That's quite possible as his concern is apparently the whole hierarchical system although he does seem to focus on the overseership. Graham has said that nobody objects to leadership, as it is scriptural. However there is no way that anyone should have to pledge blind allegiance to any other man without being able to review their decisions. Some have said that Graham should just leave it to God, and queried whether he believes in prayer. However the bible precedents are that men acted when there were issues; they didn’t just ‘leave it to God’.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 13:49:15 GMT -5
That's quite possible as his concern is apparently the whole hierarchical system although he does seem to focus on the overseership. Graham has said that nobody objects to leadership, as it is scriptural. However there is no way that anyone should have to pledge blind allegiance to any other man without being able to review their decisions. Some have said that Graham should just leave it to God, and queried whether he believes in prayer. However the bible precedents are that men acted when there were issues; they didn’t just ‘leave it to God’. So you are saying that GT's vision is that the hierarchical system currently in effect is fine, but just needs to be more transparent and accountable?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 14:11:38 GMT -5
In November 2011 Graham issued an open letter to Brothers and Sisters in Christ. In it he quoted from some of his previous correspondence, including the following from a 2007 written statement that was forwarded to the overseers in New Zealand So he was allowed to continue in the work for 6+ years while he was speaking against the overseers? Sometimes openly criticizing the organization? How on earth did he get away with doing that? Good question. I am glad you raised this. I think there are at least 2 questions people should be considering in this case of a late-middle-aged man feeling he had no option but to relinquish his place in the ministry. 1) What were the things he had actually witnessed amongst the Australasian overseership that disgusted him so much? Don’t skip over that question, as it is very important to get the answer to understand why a man of Graham’s calibre felt he ultimately had no option but to leave the work. When serious matters are raised to the overseership and they refuse to deal with them, then what can a man of integrity do? Graham fought these things for years and during that time would not back off. Because of the way things are structured i.e. (the church hierarchy) he has ultimately come to the point where there is nowhere left for him to go. He has paid a high personal price. I find this all incredibly sad. [Side question: do you want an overseership where, when real issues are raised with them, simply says ‘I’m sorry, my hands are tied”? Graham has fought for truth at every turn. An overseership that claims they have ‘tied hands’ are unable to fight anything, let alone fight for truth !] 2) Why did they not remove him from the work (your question)? I think a good number of people now know that there was a campaign a few years ago to remove Graham Thompson from the work. This involved getting an overseas overseer to come over here to NZ to help wield the hatchet. Many (particularly those in the work) knew this was about to happen. But what do you know. At the last minute the axe was withheld. Try and find out why, and don’t accept the dribble that it was because of the graciousness of the overseers. By the way, if you get answers to those 2 questions, what are the chances there is a link between them !!? Graham is now totally free and it will be interesting to see what he does now and whether his conscience leads him to still tackle the same issues with his past vigour. That clearly is down to him, and is his business. In the meantime I certainly applaud all he has done on behalf of the fellowship to try to bring it back to a path of truth. Isn’t it interesting what a man of character will do. He knows truth is everything and will face anything in order that truth prevails.
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Post by Mary on Jan 9, 2014 14:20:09 GMT -5
I had never heard the work overseer until I came on this board. It was not something that was used in NZ and Australia when I was in. It was always head worker. So eldership means leadership to me rather than elders themselves.
If he leaves meeting my guess is that someone will say that he wanted to start his own church. Of course, it is may be, he wasn't willing (to submit or fit in - he wanted his own way). Is he going to leave meetings altogether?
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 9, 2014 14:22:36 GMT -5
I seem to recall hearing that the Aussies call their elders something other than "elders."
Is it maybe "bishop"?
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Post by Sylvestra on Jan 9, 2014 14:28:42 GMT -5
One of the values of an exit letter is for ones own sake --- Often in the turbulence of the exit process -- even if the issues of basic moral values seem clear enough, it is easy to lose structure in our interest for explanation and understanding .. both for ourselves and of course for others. I completely understand and agree with Cleardays advise to keep an exit letter short -- many of us tend to over-explain, and this can give folks who are ultra-sensitive to 2x2 criticism added things to pick holes in. However writing a more complete description/explanation of the exit process, for me has been an important aspect of the 'sect recovery' process that most of us exes have to go through. Putting it down on paper, forces a structured thought process that I think is important for us all - even if no one should read it. I would recommend to anyone to try to develop a more non-exclusive attitude as much as possible first if there are storm clouds on the horizon, whether thinking of quitting or you see pressure coming your way. Becoming non-exclusive is one of the best ways to reduce the trauma of an event like this. In most cases it will still be difficult because you know some relationships are going to change drastically, but at least you won't have all the fears of no future except hell and no alternative life ahead.....in fact you may be able to see a lot of exciting possibilities ahead which will help with the transition. Very good advice, CD!! If one is thinking about leaving, having outside friends of like faith and/or interests will help a great deal when you feel like there are none to support you from your past!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 14:32:45 GMT -5
I would recommend to anyone to try to develop a more non-exclusive attitude as much as possible first if there are storm clouds on the horizon, whether thinking of quitting or you see pressure coming your way. Becoming non-exclusive is one of the best ways to reduce the trauma of an event like this. In most cases it will still be difficult because you know some relationships are going to change drastically, but at least you won't have all the fears of no future except hell and no alternative life ahead.....in fact you may be able to see a lot of exciting possibilities ahead which will help with the transition. Very good advice, CD!! If one is thinking about leaving, having outside friends of like faith and/or interests will help a great deal when you feel like there are none to support you from your past! to say nothing of how it will enrich your life all the way around.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 14:34:26 GMT -5
I had never heard the work overseer until I came on this board. It was not something that was used in NZ and Australia when I was in. It was always head worker. So eldership means leadership to me rather than elders themselves. If he leaves meeting my guess is that someone will say that he wanted to start his own church. Of course, it is may be, he wasn't willing (to submit or fit in - he wanted his own way). Is he going to leave meetings altogether? Overseer has been the standard term in the US for many years now, but I do remember hearing it called 'head worker' when I was young.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 14:41:10 GMT -5
I had never heard the work overseer until I came on this board. It was not something that was used in NZ and Australia when I was in. It was always head worker. So eldership means leadership to me rather than elders themselves. If he leaves meeting my guess is that someone will say that he wanted to start his own church. Of course, it is may be, he wasn't willing (to submit or fit in - he wanted his own way). Is he going to leave meetings altogether? Overseer has been the standard term in the US for many years now, but I do remember hearing it called 'head worker' when I was young. Also used is the word "responsible". As in "John Doe has The Responsibility for the state".
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Post by stevnz on Jan 9, 2014 15:02:34 GMT -5
Graham has said that nobody objects to leadership, as it is scriptural. However there is no way that anyone should have to pledge blind allegiance to any other man without being able to review their decisions. Some have said that Graham should just leave it to God, and queried whether he believes in prayer. However the bible precedents are that men acted when there were issues; they didn’t just ‘leave it to God’. So you are saying that GT's vision is that the hierarchical system currently in effect is fine, but just needs to be more transparent and accountable? No, the hierarchical system can never be fine. Jesus did not teach or show such a thing. Bert has quoted Paul's writings to support Bert's vision of how the church should operate but that wasn't Christ's example. There can be administrative leadership that does not create a hierarchy. What if the 'overseer' role was redefined to be a rolling office, held for say 3 years and then passed to someone else, with the responsibilities of coordinating conventions, overseas visits etc, but not necessarily being the 'boss' and not creating binding rulings and doctrinal interpretations? What if workers were given the freedom to decide where they would like to go each year, and to choose their companion? But the real issue is why can't it be accepted that anyone/everyone can be lead by the spirit and should be, so we shouldn't have to pledge blind allegiance to any other mere man nor should we demand that of others to ourselves.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 15:14:21 GMT -5
So you are saying that GT's vision is that the hierarchical system currently in effect is fine, but just needs to be more transparent and accountable? No, the hierarchical system can never be fine. Jesus did not teach or show such a thing. Bert has quoted Paul's writings to support Bert's vision of how the church should operate but that wasn't Christ's example. There can be administrative leadership that does not create a hierarchy. What if the 'overseer' role was redefined to be a rolling office, held for say 3 years and then passed to someone else, with the responsibilities of coordinating conventions, overseas visits etc, but not necessarily being the 'boss' and not creating binding rulings and doctrinal interpretations? What if workers were given the freedom to decide where they would like to go each year, and to choose their companion? But the real issue is why can't it be accepted that anyone/everyone can be lead by the spirit and should be, so we shouldn't have to pledge blind allegiance to any other mere man nor should we demand that of others to ourselves. I would like to see GT's vision of what the right way would look like in practical terms. It's one thing to identify the error of rulers, but it is another to prescribe something that could never become the ruling system again. The Christian principle is "a child shall lead them" and that "the greatest shall be the least". Personally, I don't see how the current system could be modified to put those principles into place.....it would fall apart because the current configuration is dependent on the hierarchical system to be held together. Most churches operate with an administrative board for all the practical stuff and the preacher just does his/her thing in their role to preach and try to help people. Would that be something like the model GT is envisioning?
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Post by holdmyhand on Jan 9, 2014 15:54:43 GMT -5
So you are saying that GT's vision is that the hierarchical system currently in effect is fine, but just needs to be more transparent and accountable? No, the hierarchical system can never be fine. Jesus did not teach or show such a thing. Bert has quoted Paul's writings to support Bert's vision of how the church should operate but that wasn't Christ's example. There can be administrative leadership that does not create a hierarchy. What if the 'overseer' role was redefined to be a rolling office, held for say 3 years and then passed to someone else, with the responsibilities of coordinating conventions, overseas visits etc, but not necessarily being the 'boss' and not creating binding rulings and doctrinal interpretations? What if workers were given the freedom to decide where they would like to go each year, and to choose their companion? But the real issue is why can't it be accepted that anyone/everyone can be lead by the spirit and should be, so we shouldn't have to pledge blind allegiance to any other mere man nor should we demand that of others to ourselves. Only those who trust the Holy Spirit can control, will approve dismantling the man controlled hierarchy we have today If the HS is overseeing it can work but if he is absent it will quickly become a shambles, such a system will quickly reveal if God is in it Steve are these your personal thoughts or has Graham suggested them?
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Post by snow on Jan 9, 2014 15:58:28 GMT -5
I would recommend to anyone to try to develop a more non-exclusive attitude as much as possible first if there are storm clouds on the horizon, whether thinking of quitting or you see pressure coming your way. Becoming non-exclusive is one of the best ways to reduce the trauma of an event like this. In most cases it will still be difficult because you know some relationships are going to change drastically, but at least you won't have all the fears of no future except hell and no alternative life ahead.....in fact you may be able to see a lot of exciting possibilities ahead which will help with the transition. Very good advice, CD!! If one is thinking about leaving, having outside friends of like faith and/or interests will help a great deal when you feel like there are none to support you from your past! I totally agree that you need to find friends outside the church. That was hard for me to do since I was 12 and still under the control of my parents. It took quite a bit of work for me to be allowed to hang out with worldly kids. But since I was suspect within the friends and parents were not comfortable leaving me alone with their kids, I had to find friends on the outside. There were a couple of friends kids that stuck with me through it all because their parents were okay with it. But I didn't go to school with any of them and didn't get to see them that often. Your horizons expand when you go outside the church to learn about the world. It was the best thing I ever did and one of the most difficult.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jan 9, 2014 16:00:46 GMT -5
No, the hierarchical system can never be fine. Jesus did not teach or show such a thing. Bert has quoted Paul's writings to support Bert's vision of how the church should operate but that wasn't Christ's example. There can be administrative leadership that does not create a hierarchy. What if the 'overseer' role was redefined to be a rolling office, held for say 3 years and then passed to someone else, with the responsibilities of coordinating conventions, overseas visits etc, but not necessarily being the 'boss' and not creating binding rulings and doctrinal interpretations? What if workers were given the freedom to decide where they would like to go each year, and to choose their companion? But the real issue is why can't it be accepted that anyone/everyone can be lead by the spirit and should be, so we shouldn't have to pledge blind allegiance to any other mere man nor should we demand that of others to ourselves. Only those who trust the Holy Spirit can control, will approve dismantling the man controlled hierarchy we have today If the HS is overseeing it can work but if he is absent it will quickly become a shambles, such a system will quickly reveal if God is in it Steve are these your personal thoughts or has Graham suggested them? Our bible study with the kids this week was Proverbs 6. Interesting that it notes the following: 6 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: 7 Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, 8 Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.I have heard the workers claim that there would be chaos without control. The insinuation being, their control. The bible claims otherwise- that God can put something into the hearts and minds of those saved in Jesus and they become yoked with Him- a new creature in Him, part of one body, etc. The workers contend and act as if the system would collapse if they didn't police it. This suggests insecurity that the system is indeed lead by the Spirit.
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