|
Post by sacerdotal on Jan 8, 2014 18:56:35 GMT -5
i have no objection to it's release just asking for conformation that the letter had the permission to be released that is all no need to let your imagination run riot, no doubt if you didn't want information about yourself released if it was private Imagination in humans tends to run riot when there is a vacuum of information. Graham did the right thing and allowed his letter to be published to fill that vacuum rather than let rumor and gossip fill the void- as so often happens in these matters.
|
|
|
Post by quizzer on Jan 8, 2014 18:58:22 GMT -5
Graham issued a transcript (full and exact) of the letter he gave to Alan Richardson by hand on Monday morning and said "I have no objection to it being shared". did he enlighten you of what the lie was in anyway Y'know, it might be possible to ask GT what he meant by "the lie" in his letter. Then, you could explain it to us on TMB. Just a wild thought on my part, but let us know!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 18:59:31 GMT -5
Imagination in humans tends to run riot when there is a vacuum of information. Graham did the right thing and allowed his letter to be published to fill that vacuum rather than let rumor and gossip fill the void- as so often happens in these matters. yes he did the right thing, the beginning of this thread caused exactly that vacuum and rumour ran riot
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 18:59:46 GMT -5
Sir, what did I express that might indicate I let my imagination run riot? Whatever it was, I am very sorry, for it is not a practice of mine.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 19:00:18 GMT -5
did he enlighten you of what the lie was in anyway Y'know, it might be possible to ask GT what he meant by "the lie" in his letter. Then, you could explain it to us on TMB. Just a wild thought on my part, but let us know! if i find out
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 19:03:48 GMT -5
Sir, what did I express that might indicate I let my imagination run riot? Whatever it was, I am very sorry, for it is not a practice of mine. the snakie business
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Jan 8, 2014 19:04:17 GMT -5
yes he did the right thing, the beginning of this thread caused exactly that vacuum and rumour ran riot I haven't seen any evidence of "rumor running riot" in this thread. All of the participants have been very civil and circumspect.
|
|
|
Post by stevnz on Jan 8, 2014 19:10:49 GMT -5
In November 2011 Graham issued an open letter to Brothers and Sisters in Christ. In it he quoted from some of his previous correspondence, including the following from a 2007 written statement that was forwarded to the overseers in New Zealand:
I do not believe in the administration manifested presently in the eldership system. I do not believe it is part of the Kingdom, nor part of the Gospel. I do not believe it has any foundation in Scripture – not in the word of the Lord nor in any parallel or precedent that can be found in the Apostles’ traditions. I have no confidence in the uprightness of any of the decisions that are being made. I believe the current administration is nothing more than a hierarchical body which pursues a very dubious agenda and it does so by political processes and without the will to do what pleases God alone.
I have come to the place where I have no allegiance or loyalty to, nor any trust in nor respect for the administration system. In fact, I feel that the only way I can preach the Gospel without making a hypocrite of myself is to denounce the eldership system completely. This is because not only does it not fit in to the standard of Truth in Jesus; it is in fact at enmity with it.
In early 2008 the following statement was written to the overseers of the Ministry in the Australian states and New Zealand;
I believe that the sickness in the eldership is the most serious factor affecting the health of the Fellowship today, and that it is also the greatest threat to the future of the Fellowship. In your pride, and blindness of self-delusion, you have given yourselves such a place that you obviously feel you can act with wanton disregard for the Word of God, the principles of sound judgment, and the spirit of the brotherhood. This place which you claim for yourselves is one which our Lord Jesus never took Himself – and straitly commanded His disciples never to take. You have set yourselves on a throne upon which God alone should be seated, and – not content only to rule over the Lord’s heritage – you even desire and demand that you be worshipped.
The most recent communication to the New Zealand overseer on the matter carries the observation that "Your administration system (note that I write not in reference to the true Ministry of Jesus Christ, but to you who separate yourselves and make yourselves an upper echelon above the servants of God) exhibits very strong elements of cultism, and many of the characteristics of false religion."
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Jan 8, 2014 19:19:22 GMT -5
In November 2011 Graham issued an open letter to Brothers and Sisters in Christ. In it he quoted from some of his previous correspondence, including the following from a 2007 written statement that was forwarded to the overseers in New Zealand: I do not believe in the administration manifested presently in the eldership system. I do not believe it is part of the Kingdom, nor part of the Gospel. I do not believe it has any foundation in Scripture – not in the word of the Lord nor in any parallel or precedent that can be found in the Apostles’ traditions. I have no confidence in the uprightness of any of the decisions that are being made. I believe the current administration is nothing more than a hierarchical body which pursues a very dubious agenda and it does so by political processes and without the will to do what pleases God alone.
I have come to the place where I have no allegiance or loyalty to, nor any trust in nor respect for the administration system. In fact, I feel that the only way I can preach the Gospel without making a hypocrite of myself is to denounce the eldership system completely. This is because not only does it not fit in to the standard of Truth in Jesus; it is in fact at enmity with it.In early 2008 the following statement was written to the overseers of the Ministry in the Australian states and New Zealand; I believe that the sickness in the eldership is the most serious factor affecting the health of the Fellowship today, and that it is also the greatest threat to the future of the Fellowship. In your pride, and blindness of self-delusion, you have given yourselves such a place that you obviously feel you can act with wanton disregard for the Word of God, the principles of sound judgment, and the spirit of the brotherhood. This place which you claim for yourselves is one which our Lord Jesus never took Himself – and straitly commanded His disciples never to take. You have set yourselves on a throne upon which God alone should be seated, and – not content only to rule over the Lord’s heritage – you even desire and demand that you be worshipped.
The most recent communication to the New Zealand overseer on the matter carries the observation that "Your administration system (note that I write not in reference to the true Ministry of Jesus Christ, but to you who separate yourselves and make yourselves an upper echelon above the servants of God) exhibits very strong elements of cultism, and many of the characteristics of false religion."Amen, Graham, Amen. I agree.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jan 8, 2014 19:21:38 GMT -5
did he enlighten you of what the lie was in anyway Y'know, it might be possible to ask GT what he meant by "the lie" in his letter. Then, you could explain it to us on TMB. Just a wild thought on my part, but let us know! The lie might be Graham's appearance of support for the overseers, by being on the staff.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jan 8, 2014 19:26:20 GMT -5
So what has changed in the last 80 years?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 19:45:40 GMT -5
Y'know, it might be possible to ask GT what he meant by "the lie" in his letter. Then, you could explain it to us on TMB. Just a wild thought on my part, but let us know! if i find out Hang in there. You will find out all about it right here I expect.
|
|
|
Post by stevnz on Jan 8, 2014 20:11:33 GMT -5
Hang in there. You will find out all about it right here I expect. The lie is when Overseers claim to preach the truth but show scant regard for the principles of truth.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 20:39:10 GMT -5
Hang in there. You will find out all about it right here I expect. The lie is when Overseers claim to preach the truth but show scant regard for the principles of truth. such as? do you class Alan in that statement?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 20:50:37 GMT -5
Hang in there. You will find out all about it right here I expect. The lie is when Overseers claim to preach the truth but show scant regard for the principles of truth. have you heard Alan preaching in the last year? all i have ever heard from Alan is about Jesus so sorry i don't see your statement as being true can you please show me where Alan has shown scant regard for the principles of truth?
|
|
|
Post by stevnz on Jan 8, 2014 21:28:44 GMT -5
The lie is when Overseers claim to preach the truth but show scant regard for the principles of truth. have you heard Alan preaching in the last year? all i have ever heard from Alan is about Jesus so sorry i don't see your statement as being true can you please show me where Alan has shown scant regard for the principles of truth? I didn't name Alan as a person who has shown scant regard for the principles of truth. Others might do so. Some overseers might be true to the gospel and some might not be. Have you read the Vietnam thread?
|
|
|
Post by stevnz on Jan 8, 2014 23:15:22 GMT -5
If you follow the thread through the "Wings for Truth" website it isn't too difficult to see why Graham left the work. - 1 Grahams very helpful and clear sermon on Child Sexual Abuse at Auckland Special meetings June 2012 based on his interpretation of the scriptures that crime against a person is a criminal matter and not a civil matter and a matter for the police.
- 2 Allan Richardson's "Suggested Guidelines on CSA" sent to the New Zealand workers completely contradicting Grahams sermon. "When a report of CSA is received the parents or guardians should be approached for confirmation of the allegation. When the victim is interviewed, it is important that the parents of the child be present - for the best interests of the child and so there be two or three witnesses present when the allegations are heard. (refer 2 Cor v1 & 1 Tim 5 19-20 & v24)" Allan Richardson's reasoning here doesn't make sense to me. Even if this scripture here did apply The child who is the claimant making the accusation has already been heard by two witnesses, his/her parents. Then Allan said the parents had to pray about it before going to the police. Now imagine a young child having to describe to a couple of old workers, sex acts that had been performed on him/her. Its perverse. Would God want that? Would Jesus want that? After one of Gods "Godly People" doing An "Ungodly" act for the child to suffer more. I am sure that New Zealand's child welfare agencies, NZ Police and Department of Child Youth And Family would be wanting to have a word in Allan Richardson's ear if they read his letter. There were other strange ramblings in Allan's letter which are hard to follow but it seems that we have some men with "Child abuse weakness among us" known only to the top echelons of power in the ministry, nobody else knows because this information has been passed on from some secret source. When the workers in a district are looking for a new elder or somewhere to put a meeting they ring Allan. In his computer or in a little book he has list of these people. These people must look O.K., well reported of the brethren etc but have this dark secret only known to a select few. Do these people go to convention? I am getting paranoid now going round friends homes that don't have a meeting in their home. Are these the ones?" I wonder. But what is a "CSA weakness"? I would say Child Sexual Abuse is a bad bad thing. It's like saying "that guys got a wife bashing weakness" Maybe though it's some old granddad giving the kids lollies for being good after the meeting and some old gossip says "Aha I see a CSA weakness", and secretly passes it on to Allan.
- Graham's rather forthright letter to Allan debunking it all.
- Allan Richardson's half hearted sermon at Pukekohe Convention 2013 probably because he got some flak from people when they saw his CSA guidelines on the "Wings For Truth" website. His sermon has been well covered on this forum.
All that is true but Graham's decision to leave had nothing to do with CSA matters. His decision was related to the eldership problems. Of course those eldership problems do have an impact on CSA matters, but that was not Graham's prime concern.
|
|
|
Post by stevnz on Jan 9, 2014 0:13:55 GMT -5
I wonder what 'the lie' is that he is referring to? The lie on here is sometimes referred to as them claiming to being the true church from Jesus day. Anyone have any idea of the lie? The person who he is writing to seems to know what he is talking about. Like virgo, I also wonder how a private letter can be circulated to others. The person who put it on here is professing so isn't he breaking some sort of confidentiality. I also wonder if it is the whole letter as it seems to not be complete. No name to say it is Graham but I don't doubt it either but it does not close off. Graham wrote: I have waited until the present to take this step in the expectation that some steps would be taken to address this issue. That being not the case, I am left with no option as I can not support the lie.
i wonder also what the lie is maybe we maybe enlightened by the letter bearer i understood that stevenz wasn't professing but could be wrong about that, if he's not then the plot would thicken I have been part of the fellowship for 60 years. I don't know whether that thickens your plot or not.
|
|
|
Post by openingact34 on Jan 9, 2014 1:03:54 GMT -5
In November 2011 Graham issued an open letter to Brothers and Sisters in Christ. In it he quoted from some of his previous correspondence, including the following from a 2007 written statement that was forwarded to the overseers in New Zealand So he was allowed to continue in the work for 6+ years while he was speaking against the overseers? Sometimes openly criticizing the organization? How on earth did he get away with doing that?
|
|
|
Post by someguy on Jan 9, 2014 1:11:13 GMT -5
In November 2011 Graham issued an open letter to Brothers and Sisters in Christ. In it he quoted from some of his previous correspondence, including the following from a 2007 written statement that was forwarded to the overseers in New Zealand So he was allowed to continue in the work for 6+ years while he was speaking against the overseers? Sometimes openly criticizing the organization? How on earth did he get away with doing that? I would love to know as well. most impressive
|
|
|
Post by stevnz on Jan 9, 2014 1:50:21 GMT -5
So he was allowed to continue in the work for 6+ years while he was speaking against the overseers? Sometimes openly criticizing the organization? How on earth did he get away with doing that? I would love to know as well. most impressive Actually it is closer to 10 years. Many overseers and workers criticised/rejected/despised/ignored him publicly or privately. A few understood and agreed with him but probably felt powerless to do anything in support. Graham has some harsh things to say but they are backed by truth. As minhthanh has posted recently on the Vietnam thread: Psalm 23. 4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for thou art with me; Luke 12:3 Wherefore whatsoever ye have said in the darkness shall be heard in the light; and what ye have spoken in the ear in the inner chambers shall be proclaimed upon the housetops. 1 John 2: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
|
|
|
Post by Mary on Jan 9, 2014 2:37:26 GMT -5
I wonder why his signature was not on it and it did not end like a letter normally ends? Did we only get part of the letter? Did he say it could be put on the internet?
|
|
|
Post by stevnz on Jan 9, 2014 2:41:08 GMT -5
I wonder why his signature was not on it. why it did not end like a letter normally ends. Did we only get part of the letter. Did he say it could be put on the internet? I posted the full letter except 'Alan' at the top and 'Graham Thompson' at the bottom. Graham said "I have no objection to it being shared."
|
|
|
Post by Mary on Jan 9, 2014 2:45:18 GMT -5
So how did you get hold of it? I mean was there a meeting where people were all given it?
What is the lie he is referring to?
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Jan 9, 2014 3:09:26 GMT -5
The letter has been shared with many of the friends (and a few of us other types....) around the world, prior to it showing up on the TMB. It will be hard to put a spin on why Graham left, when so many people had the information so quick in his own words.
As has been posted, he doesn't mind the letter being shared.
|
|
|
Post by stevnz on Jan 9, 2014 3:53:25 GMT -5
So how did you get hold of it? I mean was there a meeting where people were all given it? What is the lie he is referring to? Email distributes letters quickly. There was no need for a meeting. Read the previous posts.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 8:26:35 GMT -5
The letter does raise a number of valid questions which I think requires clarity. Hopefully GT will write something brief to explain what he means. His concerns seem pretty simple but anyone new to his concerns might have some difficulty understanding it when reading this brief letter.
By what it doesn't say, it does clarify that he isn't leaving over the usual formal reasons such as care of health, nor any of the usual informal reasons: bad spirit, wanted his own way, fell in love, criminal behaviour, etc. He left over the principle of "eldership" or "overseership".
|
|
|
Post by stargazer on Jan 9, 2014 8:44:32 GMT -5
So when did "eldership" suddenly become the alternate word for "overseership".
|
|