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Post by rational on Dec 21, 2013 17:31:49 GMT -5
I have every intention of making sure at least my overseer, George Peterson, sees it. My thought is to present it to him (in whatever way possible at the time) once there are more signatures. I think you are going abut this the wrong way. These things are not decided by vote. If you have 100 signatures what will it matter? Or 1,000. If he does not think this is the right move it will be just another person complaining. Perhaps you can present it without signatures and challenge him. Ask him how many people he can name that do not think taking steps to end child abuse is important. Ask him which step(s) he feels are not the correct ones. You do not have to convince him by having a lot of votes. That works when you are running for office. Make your point. Show him a solution. Let him do the work to dismiss it. I am guessing his logic will fail.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 21, 2013 17:57:00 GMT -5
Sorry that I can't contribute much or often on this board/thread. I have 3 kids, 2 of which are 5 year olds (twins!) and a 9 month old who's still nursing. Add to that, way too many distractions to count, and you'll find yourself a soul who keeps having to seek assurance from God that this is, indeed, the best she can do. Let me try my best to answer some of the questions that I've read on here since my last read-through... I have every intention of making sure at least my overseer, George Peterson, sees it. My thought is to present it to him (in whatever way possible at the time) once there are more signatures. As of right now, there are only a handful of signers that are actually in my field. Wouldn't it be wonderful to show MY overseer that enough ppl under HIS responsibility are concerned, so much so that he can't just go console a few and then ignore the issue altogether? He would HAVE to address it. As of right now, I don't feel like that's a step that should be taken just yet. In the future, absolutely! I have no doubt, however, that he will know about it before I formally present it to him. More than anything, I just want people to know. If I can open even one persons mind to this issue, and any other issues that go along with it, then I've done well. As for fearing for my soul if I don't have the approval of the workers? Oh puleez! I'm not delusional! My relationship with God has nothing to do with what others think or say of me. Even the *workers* ☆Arwen☆ It isn't a matter of fearing for your "soul", arwen, -if you don't have the approval of the workers.
Just going against what the workers say or want to deal with, could well have a lot to do with whether you will still be able to be considered in the **TRUTH**!
However, good luck.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 19:12:08 GMT -5
George Peterson, eh? Some of us once knew HIM and much about him after years of first hand knowledge from second hand accounting. Should some of judge in the same manner as we have been judged could easily find ourselves in way over our heads also. Knowing many of such overseers as once peers, I've debated copying the final document and sending it to them myself.
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Post by jamiek8407 on Dec 22, 2013 22:49:57 GMT -5
I am new to this board. I don't really know how to use it I guess but have been following on here for sometime and finally created a username.
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Post by snow on Dec 22, 2013 23:02:51 GMT -5
Well welcome! You'll get the hang of it!
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Post by Sylvestra on Dec 22, 2013 23:10:05 GMT -5
I am new to this board. I don't really know how to use it I guess but have been following on here for sometime and finally created a username. Welcome! I'm glad you jumped in! Edy
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Post by jamiek8407 on Dec 22, 2013 23:12:13 GMT -5
thanks I must say that after reading all of the things on here my mind is kinda blown and would never have known any of this existed a few years ago
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Post by faune on Dec 23, 2013 0:16:01 GMT -5
thanks I must say that after reading all of the things on here my mind is kinda blown and would never have known any of this existed a few years ago Jamiek8407 ~ Welcome to TMB and hopefully you'll join in with your opinions on different subjects discussed here. Glad to see a new face on line and hopefully you will find this board very informative about a number of things discussed by posters from different walks of life and experiences.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 2:18:19 GMT -5
thanks I must say that after reading all of the things on here my mind is kinda blown and would never have known any of this existed a few years ago The information within the meetings is tightly restricted, so that may explain why you never knew about any of this. On the other hand, not all the information on here is reliable, but it is all unrestricted.
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Post by rational on Dec 23, 2013 8:28:13 GMT -5
thanks I must say that after reading all of the things on here my mind is kinda blown and would never have known any of this existed a few years ago The information within the meetings is tightly restricted, so that may explain why you never knew about any of this. On the other hand, not all the information on here is reliable, but it is all unrestricted. I agree. There are always two (or more) sides to a story. There is my side and perhaps some others sides that might have a grain of truth!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 10:20:57 GMT -5
There are always two (or more) sides to a story.
There's that word again. What I dislike about its usage in this oft quoted phrase is that it implies one (or more) account(s) is or may be untrue, just because it is the first one made known. So, indeed there may well be another account (or more) of a situation, it need not be "always" nor even necessarily containing more truth than the first. Remember the blind men's description of the elephant, hmmmmmm?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 23, 2013 10:38:13 GMT -5
With a few hundred brave souls, the petition could be read at every convention in the world during testimony time. Well at least they could probably get the first few sentence out before being ushered out. Maybe print a few hundred copies and stuff them under the windshield wipers of every car in the convention car park. Although I suspect they're well-patrolled these days. Why not do it the up-front way --- and give it along with the names and signitures directly to the overseer? Why is that thought so unthinkable? Why should folks be ashamed to do it this way? Why would it take more courage than anyone inside apparently has? Edgar, you of course, know that eternal salvation is tangled up with the workers and without the workers one wouldn't dare to die! So goodwill with the workers is the prime consideration. Even some professing folks who would like to leave the fellowship have a great fear of doing that because of the rumors and ill will that follows such exits! Plus the brainwashing that the workers are the only ones who can save a person and without the workers won't wouldn't dare to die or leave the fellowship! Also we have the knowledge of one young man who was so fervent of getting the information out about the workers who were present at that year's conv. he put a notice in brown envelopes and stood close to the mtg. area to hand them out to the parents who came to conv. There was concern on his part that not but one but at least 2 or 3 perps were there at conv. and the parents MUST not allow their children out of their eyesight! The workers scolded him and told him he wasn't welcome plus had sent his uncle who was a worker to speak to him and then he was excommunicated for seeking to protect the little ones, one being his daughter who had been too intimately touched by one of the known perps. So folks not willing to jeopardize their holdings in the fellowship just bow their wills to the workers' will and go on just taking the awful things as they come without a murmur! Also, giving them to the overseer is likely to get them tossed into the trash without even the overseer seeing them!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 23, 2013 10:42:34 GMT -5
I have little doubt it will find its way to the overseers. Likely it will --- but why not do it directly, the open and honest way. Planing (as the suggestion is)to use the gossip route is typical 2x2ism but leaves enormous room for misunderstanding and leaves it open to disregard. Clearday, no one has suggested that the petitioner do it to all overseers --- maybe just the one in her area. And if everyone that has the courage to sign it, would take it to the overseer in their area. Why is this so unthinkable? Is the interest in the issue insufficient for this simple contribution? Or are the personal risks too great? Would you take it to your overseer clearday? Edgar, I suspect her overseer is likely to politely take it from her and IF he ask what it is all about and she tells him without him reading it beforehand...he is likely to politely hand it back to her and tell her he doesn't read things that are negative or accusatory about his peers and to not try again for he certainly will not take it!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 23, 2013 10:48:40 GMT -5
I have every intention of making sure at least my overseer, George Peterson, sees it. My thought is to present it to him (in whatever way possible at the time) once there are more signatures. I think you are going abut this the wrong way. These things are not decided by vote. If you have 100 signatures what will it matter? Or 1,000. If he does not think this is the right move it will be just another person complaining. Perhaps you can present it without signatures and challenge him. Ask him how many people he can name that do not think taking steps to end child abuse is important. Ask him which step(s) he feels are not the correct ones. You do not have to convince him by having a lot of votes. That works when you are running for office. Make your point. Show him a solution. Let him do the work to dismiss it. I am guessing his logic will fail. I suspect with her overseer becoming aware of the petition BEFORE it is presented to him will cause more negative response then if it had been just between the writer and the overseer. Thus I strongly suspect her overseer will politely and kindly refuse to read it and instruct her that he doesn't want to read anything that is confrontational about his peers....or the fellowship! He won't mistreat her by any means, but he has his convictions and he doesn't allow them to be bantered about or away! He is just who he is!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 10:49:13 GMT -5
There are always two (or more) sides to a story.There's that word again. What I dislike about its usage in this oft quoted phrase is that it implies one (or more) account(s) is or may be untrue, just because it is the first one made known. So, indeed there may well be another account (or more) of a situation, it need not be "always" nor even necessarily containing more truth than the first. Remember the blind men's description of the elephant, hmmmmmm? I have heard two sides of stories which were both true yet completely different. It has to do with perception of the facts. For instance, one person thinks they are trying to help the other, but the other interprets that they are doing something hostile, so the stories are completely different even though the facts are much the same. Something like "I tried to give that person a hug" from one side to "he/she lunged at me" from the other point of view. Both true from the teller's point of view but different stories.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 23, 2013 10:52:05 GMT -5
I am new to this board. I don't really know how to use it I guess but have been following on here for sometime and finally created a username. welcome jamiek8407.....Please do not let it over whelm you....if there's something you find hard to do, post it here on the quik post and someone will help you OR you can ask Scott Ross to help you, he's a very helpful guide to the TMB!
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Post by snow on Dec 23, 2013 11:15:03 GMT -5
I believe the petition once it is signed should be sent to all the members of the 2x2's, email, snail mail, and then cc'd to the workers and overseers so they know that this is one document they can't just throw away. But there should also be a few weeks delay before sending to the overseer and workers. That way there might not be such a jump and warning by them to throw away any hate mail. By the time the workers find out it's circulating it might already be opened and read by a lot more people than it would have otherwise. I'm sure some good 'worker' person will tell the workers what they received, and the word will be out, but you might have a better chance of it getting to as many people as possible if you do the friends first.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 11:47:15 GMT -5
I have complete understanding of those suggesting the futility of presenting the petition to overseers.
I have understanding for the thought that even a petition such as this one, with very simple,straight forward and well balanced suggestions of a safer environment for our children within 2x2ism will be denounced as a threat to salvation itself.
Unfortunately I also fully understand the 2x2 overseer mindset that will manufacture evil motives for every source of outside concern, -- and then justify twisting the truth out of shape to violently combat and expel anyone and anything that 'steps out of their lower place'
Cleardays suggestion that there is always is the 'other' (and positive) perspective to 2x2isms ugly, cruel, unreasonable and anti-christian methods of dealing with challenge on such serious issues, is harder for me to swallow now -- but it did swallow it for 45 years of my life. As Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees, the inbred determination to 'paint it white', does not make it pure and clean.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 22:00:51 GMT -5
This is a well thought-out petition recently put online calling for action within the F&W. The preamble is as follows and the details can be found on the link below: Petition Background (Preamble): It has been brought to our attention that there are several instances of Child Sexual Abuse among our Workers and Friends that have been dealt with in an inappropriate manner and then kept secret.
We cannot expect any amount of change for the better, if those who know of the threat refuse to acknowledge it.There is much more detail as to what the petition is calling for, all of it which appears quite reasonable. www.gopetition.com/petitions/create-publish-and-implement-a-child-sexual-abuse-response-plan.htmlHello CD, Thank you for your concern, and action. HOWEVER. I was mightily disappointed in your add for it. This is not a petition, but a speech, 95+% of it an editorial. You and I have no doubt seen and perhaps signed any number of petitions, and I at least have never seen any serious petition intended to be signed, or acted on, like this. If you want any hope of serious consideration, I would suggest you take a page out of Cherrie's playbook. Keep it simple and to the point. Strip it of all editorial. Or better yet model it in the form, shape, and size of some of the petitions you may have been asked to vote on in election. Really you have 3 (roughly) petitions. Which as a petition, is two too many. Two of which incidentally I would not sign. What's more, it has grammatical and spelling errors. Which anyone reading my notes would know that if even "I" notice, it is NOT good. None of which should matter in the concern you're trying to help, but they indicate a lack of care about what you're presenting, or have reviewed, or serious professionalism. It's close to looking like a one off rant. With a confused call for action somewhere around the end. It is something to start with, but premature as a petition. Here is what I would sign, With caveats noted below: We are aware that there have been instances of Child Sexual Abuse among the friends and workers.
We ask: for the help and protection of all, that workers, elders, and any interested friends, take a Child Abuse Education course. One that is designed to help inform how to prevent, deal with, and heal from CSA. An on line example is here. Darkness To Light: Getting your organization started NOTICE 1: I have NOT reviewed the suggested web example. I don't know if it delivers as advertised, (which if you look carefully is also not exactly as in the proposed petition) so I do not sign this yet. If the web site is like the petition you point to. I would argue against it. NOTICE 2: In the interest of full disclosure, I would also suggest that all who had a hand in producing the petition, sign their names and addresses and affiliation or not with the fellowship. Keith Kleinstick Edgar, Wisconsin
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 23, 2013 22:19:35 GMT -5
......OR you can ask Scott Ross to help you, he's a very helpful guide to the TMB!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 22:48:15 GMT -5
......OR you can ask Scott Ross to help you, he's a very helpful guide to the TMB! Hey Scott, Nice to see you. I don't want to be presumptuous, but if yours was in response to mine, it was a little too cryptic for me to understand. But then again maybe it was intended for others who get what you did mean. No need to explain.. Not what I'm writing for. Anyway.... I'm writing to say, Appreciate your and CD's attempts and work. I don't know, but I get the impression you've been successful in helping here and there. I hope it's true. Thank you.
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Post by arwen89 on Dec 23, 2013 22:55:57 GMT -5
With a few hundred brave souls, the petition could be read at every convention in the world during testimony time. Well at least they could probably get the first few sentence out before being ushered out. Maybe print a few hundred copies and stuff them under the windshield wipers of every car in the convention car park. Although I suspect they're well-patrolled these days. I'm seriously contemplating putting flyers up on the backs of the bathroom stall doors. You know those clear plaques that some establishments have? Install some of those and glue the flyer inside lol... You'd be amazed at some of the ideas I've imagined up... Making origami swans out of a flyer and putting them in each seat during the night at convention.... slipping them under pillows in the bunks. ... Ha! ☆Arwen☆
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 23, 2013 23:59:55 GMT -5
......OR you can ask Scott Ross to help you, he's a very helpful guide to the TMB! Hey Scott, Nice to see you. I don't want to be presumptuous, but if yours was in response to mine, it was a little too cryptic for me to understand. But then again maybe it was intended for others who get what you did mean. No need to explain.. Not what I'm writing for. Anyway.... I'm writing to say, Appreciate your and CD's attempts and work. I don't know, but I get the impression you've been successful in helping here and there. I hope it's true. Thank you. It was in response to what STR posted on the last page to a new member. Just acknowledging that I am willing to help those who ask.... I think I have helped a few people here and there...... I have been in contact 'off board' with a lot of people who read here, whether registered members or not. Just do what little I can to help when possible.
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Post by sapphire on Dec 24, 2013 0:03:09 GMT -5
With a few hundred brave souls, the petition could be read at every convention in the world during testimony time. Well at least they could probably get the first few sentence out before being ushered out. Maybe print a few hundred copies and stuff them under the windshield wipers of every car in the convention car park. Although I suspect they're well-patrolled these days. I'm seriously contemplating putting flyers up on the backs of the bathroom stall doors. You know those clear plaques that some establishments have? Install some of those and glue the flyer inside lol... You'd be amazed at some of the ideas I've imagined up... Making origami swans out of a flyer and putting them in each seat during the night at convention.... slipping them under pillows in the bunks. ... Ha! ☆Arwen☆ Arwen, PLEASE don't do this. First, I truly commend you for the stand you've taken, but there's a right way and a wrong way to fight this battle... if you pass out material at convention, it's only going to make everyone mad at YOU, not at the issue you're trying to focus on. Also, think about children who would find and read the notices... this is something most parents would NOT want their children to see.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2013 0:38:00 GMT -5
This is a well thought-out petition recently put online calling for action within the F&W. The preamble is as follows and the details can be found on the link below: Petition Background (Preamble): It has been brought to our attention that there are several instances of Child Sexual Abuse among our Workers and Friends that have been dealt with in an inappropriate manner and then kept secret.
We cannot expect any amount of change for the better, if those who know of the threat refuse to acknowledge it.There is much more detail as to what the petition is calling for, all of it which appears quite reasonable. www.gopetition.com/petitions/create-publish-and-implement-a-child-sexual-abuse-response-plan.htmlHello CD, Thank you for your concern, and action. HOWEVER. I was mightily disappointed in your add for it. This is not a petition, but a speech, 95+% of it an editorial. You and I have no doubt seen and perhaps signed any number of petitions, and I at least have never seen any serious petition intended to be signed, or acted on, like this. If you want any hope of serious consideration, I would suggest you take a page out of Cherrie's playbook. Keep it simple and to the point. Strip it of all editorial. Or better yet model it in the form, shape, and size of some of the petitions you may have been asked to vote on in election. Really you have 3 (roughly) petitions. Which as a petition, is two too many. Two of which incidentally I would not sign. What's more, it has grammatical and spelling errors. Which anyone reading my notes would know that if even "I" notice, it is NOT good. None of which should matter in the concern you're trying to help, but they indicate a lack of care about what you're presenting, or have reviewed, or serious professionalism. It's close to looking like a one off rant. With a confused call for action somewhere around the end. It is something to start with, but premature as a petition. Here is what I would sign, With caveats noted below: We are aware that there have been instances of Child Sexual Abuse among the friends and workers.
We ask: for the help and protection of all, that workers, elders, and any interested friends, take a Child Abuse Education course. One that is designed to help inform how to prevent, deal with, and heal from CSA. An on line example is here. Darkness To Light: Getting your organization started NOTICE 1: I have NOT reviewed the suggested web example. I don't know if it delivers as advertised, (which if you look carefully is also not exactly as in the proposed petition) so I do not sign this yet. If the web site is like the petition you point to. I would argue against it. NOTICE 2: In the interest of full disclosure, I would also suggest that all who had a hand in producing the petition, sign their names and addresses and affiliation or not with the fellowship. Keith Kleinstick Edgar, Wisconsin You're talking to the wrong person ettu. I have no involvement with this. The author is arwen89 and her full name appears on the petition. I am sure she will appreciate your comments. Glad to hear you are behind this as I am.
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Post by shipwreckedsailor on Dec 24, 2013 0:51:06 GMT -5
I'm seriously contemplating putting flyers up on the backs of the bathroom stall doors. You know those clear plaques that some establishments have? Install some of those and glue the flyer inside lol... You'd be amazed at some of the ideas I've imagined up... Making origami swans out of a flyer and putting them in each seat during the night at convention.... slipping them under pillows in the bunks. ... Ha! ☆Arwen☆ Arwen, PLEASE don't do this. First, I truly commend you for the stand you've taken, but there's a right way and a wrong way to fight this battle... if you pass out material at convention, it's only going to make everyone mad at YOU, not at the issue you're trying to focus on. Also, think about children who would find and read the notices... this is something most parents would NOT want their children to see. Seriously? Why not?? I wish I had seen something like this when I was a child...maybe then I would have had the courage or at least the questions to go to my mother about the time I was molested!
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Post by fixit on Dec 24, 2013 2:13:26 GMT -5
Arwen, PLEASE don't do this. First, I truly commend you for the stand you've taken, but there's a right way and a wrong way to fight this battle... if you pass out material at convention, it's only going to make everyone mad at YOU, not at the issue you're trying to focus on. Also, think about children who would find and read the notices... this is something most parents would NOT want their children to see. Seriously? Why not?? I wish I had seen something like this when I was a child...maybe then I would have had the courage or at least the questions to go to my mother about the time I was molested! Isn't it interesting that kids are expected to silently suffer sexual abuse, tell no one about it, get over it, build a bridge, make lemonade out of the lemons life dishes up... ...yet we don't want them to learn about child sexual abuse because its an adult thing.
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Post by Gene on Dec 24, 2013 6:31:21 GMT -5
With a few hundred brave souls, the petition could be read at every convention in the world during testimony time. Well at least they could probably get the first few sentence out before being ushered out. Maybe print a few hundred copies and stuff them under the windshield wipers of every car in the convention car park. Although I suspect they're well-patrolled these days. I'm seriously contemplating putting flyers up on the backs of the bathroom stall doors. You know those clear plaques that some establishments have? Install some of those and glue the flyer inside lol... You'd be amazed at some of the ideas I've imagined up... Making origami swans out of a flyer and putting them in each seat during the night at convention.... slipping them under pillows in the bunks. ... Ha! ☆Arwen☆ Ooh- Ooh -- I've got it! Float the origami swans in the convention baptism pond!
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