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Post by quizzer on Dec 24, 2013 8:29:11 GMT -5
I'm seriously contemplating putting flyers up on the backs of the bathroom stall doors. You know those clear plaques that some establishments have? Install some of those and glue the flyer inside lol... You'd be amazed at some of the ideas I've imagined up... Making origami swans out of a flyer and putting them in each seat during the night at convention.... slipping them under pillows in the bunks. ... Ha! ☆Arwen☆ Ooh- Ooh -- I've got it! Float the origami swans in the convention baptism pond! Nahhh - those origami swans are fun to play with and they'll not get unfolded. How about folding the flyers and then placing them under the front cover of hymnbooks in the convention hall between meetings? Folks usually keep the list of convention speakers in the front cover of their hymnbooks, so they'll check during meeting.
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Post by arwen89 on Dec 24, 2013 8:45:49 GMT -5
I'm seriously contemplating putting flyers up on the backs of the bathroom stall doors. You know those clear plaques that some establishments have? Install some of those and glue the flyer inside lol... You'd be amazed at some of the ideas I've imagined up... Making origami swans out of a flyer and putting them in each seat during the night at convention.... slipping them under pillows in the bunks. ... Ha! ☆Arwen☆ Ooh- Ooh -- I've got it! Float the origami swans in the convention baptism pond! Ha! You're cracking me up! I could print it off (AND laminate it!) and stick it in the little cups in the middle of the tables that hold the Grace cards...! ☆Arwen☆
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 24, 2013 10:06:05 GMT -5
I believe the petition once it is signed should be sent to all the members of the 2x2's, email, snail mail, and then cc'd to the workers and overseers so they know that this is one document they can't just throw away. But there should also be a few weeks delay before sending to the overseer and workers. That way there might not be such a jump and warning by them to throw away any hate mail. By the time the workers find out it's circulating it might already be opened and read by a lot more people than it would have otherwise. I'm sure some good 'worker' person will tell the workers what they received, and the word will be out, but you might have a better chance of it getting to as many people as possible if you do the friends first. Snow there are 2 factors that have proven over time to be true" Number 1: There are workers who read on TMB and there are friends who read here and tell the workers what's here.....and since the petition has been posted here and a link posted to see it now.....the workers are very much on the alert to the petition or being knowledgeable that there is said petition. So having the friends sign it first thinking it an unknown isn't being real, IMO! Number 2: We have to learn from the past. Now there was another young parent at a convention some years ago that was working very diligently in notifying parents who were at that conv. KNOW that there were a couple of pedophiles or at least a couple who behaved like pedophiles.....the man was sent off the grounds.....and later was excommunicated by the 2 guilty workers and their peers!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 24, 2013 10:10:50 GMT -5
I have complete understanding of those suggesting the futility of presenting the petition to overseers. I have understanding for the thought that even a petition such as this one, with very simple,straight forward and well balanced suggestions of a safer environment for our children within 2x2ism will be denounced as a threat to salvation itself. Unfortunately I also fully understand the 2x2 overseer mindset that will manufacture evil motives for every source of outside concern, -- and then justify twisting the truth out of shape to violently combat and expel anyone and anything that 'steps out of their lower place' Cleardays suggestion that there is always is the 'other' (and positive) perspective to 2x2isms ugly, cruel, unreasonable and anti-christian methods of dealing with challenge on such serious issues, is harder for me to swallow now -- but it did swallow it for 45 years of my life. As Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees, the inbred determination to 'paint it white', does not make it pure and clean. Edgar, as I mentioned to Snow's post above about getting the friends in on the petition BEFORE the workers ever know about it is futile in concerning this petition....the worekrs are probably very well aware that the petition is out there by having either read it here on TMB or some real strong worker worshippers have sped to tell them! Also, this just brings about the thought that we perhaps need to allow past experiences that are similar to give u knowledge about the handling of such a thing. There was a father in CO that was doing his best to notify the parents at one conv. that he had his notation of who was at the conv. that were known CSA perps and had put it in a manila envelope and stood close to the mtg. shed and quietly handing the envelopes out....workers made him quit that, and eventually excommunicated him becaused of it.....
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Post by snow on Dec 24, 2013 11:31:12 GMT -5
Arwen, PLEASE don't do this. First, I truly commend you for the stand you've taken, but there's a right way and a wrong way to fight this battle... if you pass out material at convention, it's only going to make everyone mad at YOU, not at the issue you're trying to focus on. Also, think about children who would find and read the notices... this is something most parents would NOT want their children to see. Seriously? Why not?? I wish I had seen something like this when I was a child...maybe then I would have had the courage or at least the questions to go to my mother about the time I was molested! I was thinking exactly the same thing. Why don't we want our children to know that they are not to trust everyone like I was taught as a child. If I was with a professing person, they thought I was safe. That's what the friends taught their children. Sounds like they still do in some homes.
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Post by snow on Dec 24, 2013 11:36:24 GMT -5
I believe the petition once it is signed should be sent to all the members of the 2x2's, email, snail mail, and then cc'd to the workers and overseers so they know that this is one document they can't just throw away. But there should also be a few weeks delay before sending to the overseer and workers. That way there might not be such a jump and warning by them to throw away any hate mail. By the time the workers find out it's circulating it might already be opened and read by a lot more people than it would have otherwise. I'm sure some good 'worker' person will tell the workers what they received, and the word will be out, but you might have a better chance of it getting to as many people as possible if you do the friends first. Snow there are 2 factors that have proven over time to be true" Number 1: There are workers who read on TMB and there are friends who read here and tell the workers what's here.....and since the petition has been posted here and a link posted to see it now.....the workers are very much on the alert to the petition or being knowledgeable that there is said petition. So having the friends sign it first thinking it an unknown isn't being real, IMO! Number 2: We have to learn from the past. Now there was another young parent at a convention some years ago that was working very diligently in notifying parents who were at that conv. KNOW that there were a couple of pedophiles or at least a couple who behaved like pedophiles.....the man was sent off the grounds.....and later was excommunicated by the 2 guilty workers and their peers! Yes, you're right. I wasn't thinking again. I'm sure they do read here. You'd think there would be a few that had the guts to respond and get on board, but I guess not.
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Post by matisse on Dec 24, 2013 12:09:56 GMT -5
Seriously? Why not?? I wish I had seen something like this when I was a child...maybe then I would have had the courage or at least the questions to go to my mother about the time I was molested! I was thinking exactly the same thing. Why don't we want our children to know that they are not to trust everyone like I was taught as a child. If I was with a professing person, they thought I was safe. That's what the friends taught their children. Sounds like they still do in some homes. I remember people remarking about how convention was a place where you didn't have to worry about your children. "A little taste of heaven" people called it. For people who don't know better, I imagine this would be a difficult illusion to give up.
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Post by snow on Dec 24, 2013 12:26:25 GMT -5
I was thinking exactly the same thing. Why don't we want our children to know that they are not to trust everyone like I was taught as a child. If I was with a professing person, they thought I was safe. That's what the friends taught their children. Sounds like they still do in some homes. I remember people remarking about how convention was a place where you didn't have to worry about your children. "A little taste of heaven" people called it. For people who don't know better, I imagine this would be a difficult illusion to give up. Yes, probably. I remember being left at convention overnight while my parents went home for the night. They farmed so had chores. I was maybe 8 years old.
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Post by fixit on Dec 24, 2013 14:22:01 GMT -5
I remember people remarking about how convention was a place where you didn't have to worry about your children. "A little taste of heaven" people called it. For people who don't know better, I imagine this would be a difficult illusion to give up. Yes, probably. I remember being left at convention overnight while my parents went home for the night. They farmed so had chores. I was maybe 8 years old. If you'd been molested by one of the paedophiles who hang around convention grounds, your parents would have been blamed by the workers for not watching their child. I used to think convention grounds were safe places, but now I know that its every man for himself. As Arwen was told, there are no social police at convention: I guess I could take out all the criticism... lol It is available for edit. And anyone can PM for suggestions, I'm taking this initiative on my own and an beginning already to be overwhelmed! My parents own the Clever convention grounds in Missouri where I just recently realized Ira Hobbs had been allowed to attend or convention. When I asked if my father knew him he said "Yeah! He sat in front of us!" *shudder* When I tried to see if they would ban him from the grounds, I was told "We can't be the 'Social Police!'" and "People just need to watch their own kids! They're too trusting." Yet, they defend the secrecy from the workers on the subject, by saying "What good would it do to tell everyone what so-and-so has done??!" This is what I've been moved to TRY and do. We shall see what comes of it! ☆Arwen☆
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Post by fixit on Dec 24, 2013 14:55:27 GMT -5
We have to learn from the past. Now there was another young parent at a convention some years ago that was working very diligently in notifying parents who were at that conv. KNOW that there were a couple of pedophiles or at least a couple who behaved like pedophiles.....the man was sent off the grounds.....and later was excommunicated by the 2 guilty workers and their peers! Was that Dale Gardner? Dale Gardner Letters
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Post by sapphire on Dec 24, 2013 17:25:04 GMT -5
Seriously? Why not?? I wish I had seen something like this when I was a child...maybe then I would have had the courage or at least the questions to go to my mother about the time I was molested! I was thinking exactly the same thing. Why don't we want our children to know that they are not to trust everyone like I was taught as a child. If I was with a professing person, they thought I was safe. That's what the friends taught their children. Sounds like they still do in some homes. Two issues here (well, maybe 3): 1. People who pass out material like this (at convention) are almost always made to look like the villan, and all the anger is directed at that person, instead of at the ISSUE they are trying to bring attention to. She will be asked to leave and not return - which would likely ultimately destroy her relationship with her parents, since the convention is on their property. Many people will not ever accept or believe it if it's presented in this matter. They'll just label HER as a troublemaker. However, if this issue can be presented to the friends and workers in a way that will unite them to take action against the PROBLEM, instead of making them mad at the MESSENGER, it will be much more effective. This is a rule of human nature, not just my opinion. 2. Arwen's convention is 9 months away - that's way too long to wait to get information out to people. She's got a known pedophile living in her state who has destroyed countless lives over the years, never even went to trial, and attends her convention free as a bird! Action needs to be taken now, BEFORE convention, that would ensure he is no longer allowed to attend convention - ANY convention. She could start by emailing a copy of Jean's letter along WITH the petition to her overseer and ALL workers in her state. Very important: EMAIL, not mail. Then send the same to all the friends she knows in her area. Others could do the same in other states, at least forwarding the petition and the WINGS website. 3. If steps 1 and 2 are followed above, parents (and workers) should be communicating to the children BEFORE convention that they are not to trust just everyone, about bad touch and good touch, and that no matter where they are - whether with friends, at home, school, the local park, or even at convention, they should never allow ANYONE to touch them wrong. I still maintain that I would not want my children to find out about CSA by discovering a letter on their seat at convention... depending on their age, that could be very traumatic for the child. As a parent, if I had no clue about CSA issues, I would appreciate the opportunity to be notified of the issue PRIOR to that, so I could talk to my own kids.
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Post by fixit on Dec 24, 2013 18:21:23 GMT -5
Would it be acceptable for the man concerned to attend the meetings and the meal afterwards, then leave the grounds until the next meeting?
One concern I have with Arwen's concerns and this petition is that it needs to be more specific.
What exactly is being asked of who? Is it specifically for the overseer of the state?
Is the petition motivated by the refusal of GP to act?
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Post by sapphire on Dec 24, 2013 21:43:59 GMT -5
Would it be acceptable for the man concerned to attend the meetings and the meal afterwards, then leave the grounds until the next meeting? So you would be comfortable sitting next to a pedophile (who has molested MANY young girls over a 30+ year span) in meeting or eating meals with him, knowing what's REALLY going through his mind as he looks at your children or the other children or young women around you... but it's ok because he has to leave between meetings. That makes it all right???
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Post by quizzer on Dec 24, 2013 23:33:36 GMT -5
I was thinking exactly the same thing. Why don't we want our children to know that they are not to trust everyone like I was taught as a child. If I was with a professing person, they thought I was safe. That's what the friends taught their children. Sounds like they still do in some homes. Two issues here (well, maybe 3): 1. People who pass out material like this (at convention) are almost always made to look like the villan, and all the anger is directed at that person, instead of at the ISSUE they are trying to bring attention to. She will be asked to leave and not return - which would likely ultimately destroy her relationship with her parents, since the convention is on their property. Many people will not ever accept or believe it if it's presented in this matter. They'll just label HER as a troublemaker. However, if this issue can be presented to the friends and workers in a way that will unite them to take action against the PROBLEM, instead of making them mad at the MESSENGER, it will be much more effective. This is a rule of human nature, not just my opinion. 2. Arwen's convention is 9 months away - that's way too long to wait to get information out to people. She's got a known pedophile living in her state who has destroyed countless lives over the years, never even went to trial, and attends her convention free as a bird! Action needs to be taken now, BEFORE convention, that would ensure he is no longer allowed to attend convention - ANY convention. She could start by emailing a copy of Jean's letter along WITH the petition to her overseer and ALL workers in her state. Very important: EMAIL, not mail. Then send the same to all the friends she knows in her area. Others could do the same in other states, at least forwarding the petition and the WINGS website. 3. If steps 1 and 2 are followed above, parents (and workers) should be communicating to the children BEFORE convention that they are not to trust just everyone, about bad touch and good touch, and that no matter where they are - whether with friends, at home, school, the local park, or even at convention, they should never allow ANYONE to touch them wrong. I still maintain that I would not want my children to find out about CSA by discovering a letter on their seat at convention... depending on their age, that could be very traumatic for the child. As a parent, if I had no clue about CSA issues, I would appreciate the opportunity to be notified of the issue PRIOR to that, so I could talk to my own kids. Since this revolves around a known pedophile, is it possible to approach the local police? They may have some suggestions - may help put out an alert of some kind.
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Post by fixit on Dec 25, 2013 4:09:30 GMT -5
Would it be acceptable for the man concerned to attend the meetings and the meal afterwards, then leave the grounds until the next meeting? So you would be comfortable sitting next to a pedophile (who has molested MANY young girls over a 30+ year span) in meeting or eating meals with him, knowing what's REALLY going through his mind as he looks at your children or the other children or young women around you... but it's ok because he has to leave between meetings. That makes it all right??? Its not about me being comfortable - its about figuring out exactly what's being asked of the overseer. The overseers couldn't resolve this issue 25 years ago when Dale Gardner tried to get something done about this man, so why should we think it will be easy to resolve now? Dale Gardner Letters
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2013 11:03:29 GMT -5
Would it be acceptable for the man concerned to attend the meetings and the meal afterwards, then leave the grounds until the next meeting? So you would be comfortable sitting next to a pedophile (who has molested MANY young girls over a 30+ year span) in meeting or eating meals with him, knowing what's REALLY going through his mind as he looks at your children or the other children or young women around you... but it's ok because he has to leave between meetings. That makes it all right??? A proven pedophile should never be allowed to congregate wherever there are children present. The challenge in this case is to prove this person is a pedophile beyond a reasonable doubt. If legal means are not possible, then by other means. The petition offers no clue whatsoever that this is to request GeorgeP to remove a pedophile from convention grounds. Unless I missed something.
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Post by arwen89 on Dec 25, 2013 12:40:34 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Dec 26, 2013 7:08:48 GMT -5
There are always two (or more) sides to a story. There's that word again. What I dislike about its usage in this oft quoted phrase is that it implies one (or more) account(s) is or may be untrue, just because it is the first one made known. I don't see it that way. It is usually not a matter of complete truthfulness but more a matter of perspective. Just like the blind men with the elephant that you mentioned. There were no untrue answers. I could say (often!) that my wife was angry with me for no good reason. She might add the other side of the story and include the reasons why the anger was deserved. My side was not untrue, I saw no good reason. She did and her side was also not untrue.
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Post by rational on Dec 26, 2013 7:17:22 GMT -5
Would it be acceptable for the man concerned to attend the meetings and the meal afterwards, then leave the grounds until the next meeting? So you would be comfortable sitting next to a pedophile (who has molested MANY young girls over a 30+ year span) in meeting or eating meals with him, knowing what's REALLY going through his mind as he looks at your children or the other children or young women around you... but it's ok because he has to leave between meetings. That makes it all right??? Deciding what thoughts you think might be going through someone's mind and acting on them seems to be a rather poor way to take any actions.
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Post by rational on Dec 26, 2013 7:22:47 GMT -5
Since this revolves around a known pedophile, is it possible to approach the local police? They may have some suggestions - may help put out an alert of some kind. Who determined that the person is a pedophile? Are you stating facts or your opinion?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 9:35:13 GMT -5
I don't think that it would hurt to remember that all sinners (including ourselves, as well as those that some may have choosen to regard and dispise as 'pedophiles') qualify for the love of God. I would not want to diminish the seriousness of the offence, but at the same time I can get the feeling that the label is sometimes used primarily as an excuse for contempt, more than in reasonable concern for a safe environment for children.
Put in a reasonable perspective (somewhat lacking in 2x2ism), convention (even if attended by a sex offender or 2) could hardly be regarded as more of a dangerous environment than the local shopping mall at Christmas time. Parents have the responsibility to supervise their children wherever they may take them.
Edgar
Doesn't hurt to remember that there is always the real possibility of unknown and lurking sex-offenders in all the social contexts we may move in -- Remember as well there could be labeled offenders, that with simple ordinary carefullness pose no reasonable threat (and even may have other qualities that could enrich our lives).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 10:39:04 GMT -5
I don't think that it would hurt to remember that all sinners (including ourselves, as well as those that some may have choosen to regard and dispise as 'pedophiles') qualify for the love of God. I would not want to diminish the seriousness of the offence, but at the same time I can get the feeling that the label is sometimes used primarily as an excuse for contempt, more than in reasonable concern for a safe environment for children. Put in a reasonable perspective (somewhat lacking in 2x2ism), convention (even if attended by a sex offender or 2) could hardly be regarded as more of a dangerous environment than the local shopping mall at Christmas time. Parents have the responsibility to supervise their children wherever they may take them. Edgar Doesn't hurt to remember that there is always the real possibility of unknown and lurking sex-offenders in all the social contexts we may move in -- as well as labeled offenders that with simple ordinary carefullness pose no reasonable threat (and even may have other qualities that could enrich our lives). The reason why convention is a higher risk environment than a shopping mall is not because there are more potential offenders at convention. In fact, convention may have fewer. The reason that it is higher risk is that it is promoted as "next to heaven" and therefore parents reduce their vigilance. Large numbers of parents will figure that such offences are impossible at convention while being extremely cautious at the mall.
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Post by arwen89 on Dec 26, 2013 10:51:52 GMT -5
I don't think that it would hurt to remember that all sinners (including ourselves, as well as those that some may have choosen to regard and dispise as 'pedophiles') qualify for the love of God. I would not want to diminish the seriousness of the offence, but at the same time I can get the feeling that the label is sometimes used primarily as an excuse for contempt, more than in reasonable concern for a safe environment for children. Put in a reasonable perspective (somewhat lacking in 2x2ism), convention (even if attended by a sex offender or 2) could hardly be regarded as more of a dangerous environment than the local shopping mall at Christmas time. Parents have the responsibility to supervise their children wherever they may take them. Edgar Doesn't hurt to remember that there is always the real possibility of unknown and lurking sex-offenders in all the social contexts we may move in -- as well as labeled offenders that with simple ordinary carefullness pose no reasonable threat (and even may have other qualities that could enrich our lives). The reason why convention is a higher risk environment than a shopping mall is not because there are more potential offenders at convention. In fact, convention may have fewer. The reason that it is higher risk is that it is promoted as "next to heaven" and therefore parents reduce their vigilance. Large numbers of parents will figure that such offences are impossible at convention while being extremely cautious at the mall. Exactly. When talking to my mom about the issue of Ira Hobbs being on the grounds and no one knowing about it, or the fact that the majority thinks that Leslie White has disappeared because "He got mixed up with a woman," she would say "Well THIS random person over here raped so-and-so. Do we need to tell everybody he's ever come in contact with??!" As if I was just wanting to bring this all to light in order to gossip about these people/rub salt in the wound, whatever. She even said something like "We'll people just need to watch their kids better at convention." I wanted to shake her and say "THIS is why everyone needs to KNOW about these discrepancies!!!" The difference is, ppl trust convention to be "Heaven on Earth" And the workers STAY in our homes. These ppl would never let their child run around alone at the mall, yet there are just as many stragers at convention. It doesn't really matter that your neighbor raped somebody, until you are expected to let him into your home with open arms. ☆Arwen☆
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 11:10:03 GMT -5
The worker home stay system is high risk for similar reasons. If a worker has been endorsed by the overseer or a group of overseers, then the hosts become unguarded. Some even try to get their kids to spend time with workers, alone or not, in the hope that good influence will rub off on the children. This may be safe for the vast majority of workers but it becomes highly risky for the few who want to offend. The reasons why extended family is an elevated risk is for the same reasons: excessive trust and access.
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Post by rational on Dec 26, 2013 11:28:56 GMT -5
A proven pedophile should never be allowed to congregate wherever there are children present. The challenge in this case is to prove this person is a pedophile beyond a reasonable doubt. If legal means are not possible, then by other means. The petition offers no clue whatsoever that this is to request GeorgeP to remove a pedophile from convention grounds. Unless I missed something. Out of all the cases on record have any of the convicted criminals been diagnosed as pedophiles?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 11:38:11 GMT -5
A proven pedophile should never be allowed to congregate wherever there are children present. The challenge in this case is to prove this person is a pedophile beyond a reasonable doubt. If legal means are not possible, then by other means. The petition offers no clue whatsoever that this is to request GeorgeP to remove a pedophile from convention grounds. Unless I missed something. Out of all the cases on record have any of the convicted criminals been diagnosed as pedophiles? That level of detail is rarely availability in the public records. The charge and conviction is what is typically available.
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Post by rational on Dec 26, 2013 11:42:28 GMT -5
Out of all the cases on record have any of the convicted criminals been diagnosed as pedophiles? That level of detail is rarely availability in the public records. The charge and conviction is what is typically available. So calling someone a pedophile is about as accurate as saying someone has schizophrenia.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 11:43:23 GMT -5
Lets face it --- Identifying and expelling all possible offenders is a completely unreasonable and impossible route to take to create a safe environment within 2x2ism.
The ONLY way to go is to regard 2x2ism with the same caution as we regard every other social environments. If that is impossible within 2x2ism --- the only solution is to leave 2x2ism. It will never be a safer place than other organizations where people are involved.
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