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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2013 22:41:18 GMT -5
The wings facebook page members already know about the abuse. It needs to be on the facebook 323 group that has over 2000 professing members. But unfortunately you can't post any links or it gets deleted. It was shared there. It was deleted. Same with True Friends and Saints & Servants, as far as I know. It looks like almost half of the people who have signed it have shared it on Facebook tho', so that is something...
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Post by rational on Dec 21, 2013 0:39:57 GMT -5
Is demanding committment of someone perceived to not be committed an effective way to influence them? I don't think so. If they are not committed to stopping the abuse of children a petition is not the way to win them over. The petition as I edited it has clear goals articulated in the opening sentence. The assumption is that people are committed to stopping the abuse of children.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 7:46:52 GMT -5
There are some alternatives in these two cases which might be helpful, and certainly acceptable to both viewpoints being reflected here? Even by addressing them as one?
I.E. "Isolated recent incidences in progress along the line of this needed petition, surely reveal the importance of this type of behavior being brought to an over all immediate halt as soon as possible."
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Post by rational on Dec 21, 2013 8:37:58 GMT -5
Is demanding committment of someone perceived to not be committed an effective way to influence them? I don't think so. The word "demand" sounds a bit raw even if that is the essential nature of petitions. I use the word "request" and there are other softer words like "implore", "ask", "beg", "entreat" or "urge". Regardless, it all amounts to the same thing and anyone receiving a petition should take the time to understand its purpose. Are these demands, in your view, optional? It is past the time for begging. Let's start saying what we mean and not try to sugar coat things so the leadership will not be too offended when they are asked to stop enabling child abuse. I guess there could be an endless round of suggestions and asking, and urging so everyone will feel comfortable but lets remember that there are children being abused. Anyone should feel free to edit what I posted. Make a Hallmark card out of it. But I believe that it is time to demand changes and stop begging. This is not asking the signers to do anything. This is the petition presented to leadership. The Declaration of Independence Was not asking the signers to do anything but add their names to the list of demands that were presented to the king.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 10:17:28 GMT -5
The word "demand" sounds a bit raw even if that is the essential nature of petitions. I use the word "request" and there are other softer words like "implore", "ask", "beg", "entreat" or "urge". Regardless, it all amounts to the same thing and anyone receiving a petition should take the time to understand its purpose. Are these demands, in your view, optional? It is past the time for begging. Let's start saying what we mean and not try to sugar coat things so the leadership will not be too offended when they are asked to stop enabling child abuse. I guess there could be an endless round of suggestions and asking, and urging so everyone will feel comfortable but lets remember that there are children being abused. Anyone should feel free to edit what I posted. Make a Hallmark card out of it. But I believe that it is time to demand changes and stop begging. This is not asking the signers to do anything. This is the petition presented to leadership. The Declaration of Independence Was not asking the signers to do anything but add their names to the list of demands that were presented to the king. You're sounding unusually militant today and in the right way too! "Demand" is ok with me as it is one accurate word for "petition". While demand means "strong request", it also has an affinity with the word "command" which petitioners are not in the position to command anything. This is the first definition I pulled up on the meaning of "petition". A polite and formal request is the first thing to pop up. noun 1. an act of asking politely or formally for something. "a request for information" synonyms: appeal, entreaty, plea, petition, application, demand, call; More bidding, entreaty, demand, insistence a thing that is asked for. "to have our ideas taken seriously is surely a reasonable request" synonyms: requirement, wish, desire; More an instruction to a computer to provide information or perform another function. a tune or song played on a radio program, in some instances accompanied by a personal message, in response to a letter or call asking for it. archaic the state of being sought after. "human intelligence, which is in constant request in a family" verb verb: request; 3rd person present: requests; past tense: requested; past participle: requested; gerund or present participle: requesting 1. politely or formally ask for. "he received the information he had requested" synonyms: ask for, appeal for, call for, seek, solicit, plead for, apply for, demand;Regardless of what word is used, the targets will feel this is a harsh demand and that they are under siege. Any challenge to the status quo, no matter how diplomatically it is put, is a demand to these targets. Either way, thanks for getting behind this initiative rational!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 10:31:23 GMT -5
Is demanding committment of someone perceived to not be committed an effective way to influence them? I don't think so. If they are not committed to stopping the abuse of children a petition is not the way to win them over. The petition as I edited it has clear goals articulated in the opening sentence. The assumption is that people are committed to stopping the abuse of children. Every overseer who has been contacted on this issue has affirmed that they are committed to doing this right. Just what that means in most cases is unknown as few actions are seen. It is rare to see an overseer who has committed to any broad action or any significant narrow actions. There have been two overseers who have written guidelines such as demanded in the petition, although those guidelines need a lot of work to bring them up to a commonly acceptable standard. Some overseers allow or urge the MinistrySafe course. Otherwise, the commitment is there in words, so the demands of this petition should be of interest to them all if they are genuinely interested in helping stop the abuse of children to the same degree they are interested in the hem lengths of women's skirts.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 10:40:53 GMT -5
I may have missed it along the thread somewhere -- but is there any concrete plan to present this petition to the head workers in their respective fields? I think that that is really important -- To just be satisfied to let it lie dormant on the Webb is just pretty much "singing for the choir".
To really give any positive effect someone should give it directly to those in responsibility -- and note the response. Are their people with the courage to do this? Without this -- it is giving a false and misleading suggestion that the issue is being dealt with (or at least under consideration) -- when in really nothing has in reality been done.
The purpose of a petition is to actively bring it to the attention of those responsible -- not just formulate a piece of wishful thinking to impress like-minded. .
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 10:46:08 GMT -5
I may have missed it along the thread somewhere -- but is there any concrete plan to present this petition to the head workers? I think that that is really important -- To just be satisfied to let it lie dormant on the Webb is just pretty much "singing for the choir". To really give any positive effect someone should give it directly to those in responsibility -- and note the response. Without this -- it is giving a false and misleading suggestion that the issue is being dealt with (or at least under consideration) -- when in really nothing has in reality been done. The purpose of a petition is to actively bring it to the attention of those responsible -- not just formulate a piece of wishful thinking. What do you propose on how to present it?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 10:50:53 GMT -5
What do you propose on how to present it? It is hardly me to make that suggestion --- But in most petitions I am aware of in our country at least, someone takes the petition along with the signitures and hands it over in person to the authorities involved. This happens often in politics .. in organizations, and just recently I read of a petition with 10 thousand signitures being handed over in person to the local bishop of the Swedish Luthern church in our part of Sweden. This is one of the premises in signing a petition -- that it will be presented to someone in a leading position who can implement it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 10:56:49 GMT -5
What do you propose on how to present it? It is hardly me to make that suggestion --- But in most petitions I am aware of in our country at least, someone takes the petition along with the signitures and hands it over in person to the authorities involved. This happens often in politics .. in organizations, and just recently I read of a petition with 10 thousand signitures being handed over in person to the local bishop of the Swedish Luthern church in our part of Sweden. I am sure the author would appreciate any suggestion you may have. I seem to recall that you had indicated you are behind the success of this petition. This cannot be presented in the same way as most organizations in which the petitioners would request and be allowed to present the petition to a council meeting of leadership of the organization. We know that's not going to happen in this case.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 11:05:03 GMT -5
It is hardly me to make that suggestion --- But in most petitions I am aware of in our country at least, someone takes the petition along with the signitures and hands it over in person to the authorities involved. This happens often in politics .. in organizations, and just recently I read of a petition with 10 thousand signitures being handed over in person to the local bishop of the Swedish Luthern church in our part of Sweden. I am sure the author would appreciate any suggestion you may have. I seem to recall that you had indicated you are behind the success of this petition. This cannot be presented in the same way as most organizations in which the petitioners would request and be allowed to present the petition to a council meeting of leadership of the organization. We know that's not going to happen in this case. Why not? If there is no intention to present it to leadership, it it rather misleading to call it a 'petition' -- More just a statement of wishful thinking!!!
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Post by rational on Dec 21, 2013 11:14:54 GMT -5
You're sounding unusually militant today and in the right way too! "Demand" is ok with me as it is one accurate word for "petition". Just defending what I wrote. I decided to look back - I did not use the word 'demand'. The sentence in question would be: To accomplish this goal we partition that the following steps be taken immediately by the leadership:Replace the word partition with request - it still works. I think 'demand' was a term introduced by Jesse and I did follow up using that term. Perhaps we should stick to the partition I rewrote until someone wants to change it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 11:17:56 GMT -5
I am sure the author would appreciate any suggestion you may have. I seem to recall that you had indicated you are behind the success of this petition. This cannot be presented in the same way as most organizations in which the petitioners would request and be allowed to present the petition to a council meeting of leadership of the organization. We know that's not going to happen in this case. Why not? If there is no intention to present it to leadership, it it rather misleading to call it a 'petition' -- More just a statement of wishful thinking!!! Why not is because there are no publicly known councils of leadership. I am sure the petitioner would be happy to hear any suggestions that you may have.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 11:20:51 GMT -5
You're sounding unusually militant today and in the right way too! "Demand" is ok with me as it is one accurate word for "petition". Just defending what I wrote. I decided to look back - I did not use the word 'demand'. The sentence in question would be: To accomplish this goal we partition that the following steps be taken immediately by the leadership:Replace the word partition with request - it still works. I think 'demand' was a term introduced by Jesse and I did follow up using that term. Perhaps we should stick to the partition I rewrote until someone wants to change it. I think Jesse was referring to the use of the word "demand" in the original petition. I'm not sure if it is still there, I assume it is. I'm defending the petition.
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Post by rational on Dec 21, 2013 11:32:59 GMT -5
Just to be clear - I have no intention of presenting this to anyone. I do not believe a petition is the way to move forward on this. I just couldn't refrain from sticking my nose in and editing what was there because I am like that!
If someone is going to present it then it deserves to be the best that can be put forward and addresses the legal points and not trying to herd people and their beliefs into a straight line.
What needs to be done is clear, at least to me. Trying to tie it to the bible and varied beliefs, in my opinion, adds nothing. Explaining what Ezra did in some completely different set of circumstances strikes me as being close to the definition of a non sequitur.
But then - that's just me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 13:54:11 GMT -5
Why not? If there is no intention to present it to leadership, it it rather misleading to call it a 'petition' -- More just a statement of wishful thinking!!! Why not is because there are no publicly known councils of leadership. I am sure the petitioner would be happy to hear any suggestions that you may have. Don't be unreasonable Clearday .... EVERYONE within the group knows who their local overseer is -- the person that is responsible for the local policy amongst the workers on his staff and the interaction with the friends in his field of juridiction. This would very clearly be the natural person to be given the petition, and given the chance to respond regarding how it would be implemented or not implemented in his region. But I understand Clearday -- this would require a courage that is well outside what is allowed for group membership. Clearday, these are quite reasonable demands -- and well within the system of moral values that most honorable people would find uncontestable. Why would it be so out of bounds to at least present it to 2x2 leadership?? The fact that the thought of presenting such a petition of such basic sense and reason to an overseer, is so completely unthinkable to you, puts the whole organizational doctrine in serious question to me.
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Post by Gene on Dec 21, 2013 13:58:45 GMT -5
With a few hundred brave souls, the petition could be read at every convention in the world during testimony time. Well at least they could probably get the first few sentence out before being ushered out.
Maybe print a few hundred copies and stuff them under the windshield wipers of every car in the convention car park. Although I suspect they're well-patrolled these days.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 14:05:31 GMT -5
With a few hundred brave souls, the petition could be read at every convention in the world during testimony time. Well at least they could probably get the first few sentence out before being ushered out. Maybe print a few hundred copies and stuff them under the windshield wipers of every car in the convention car park. Although I suspect they're well-patrolled these days. Why not do it the up-front way --- and give it along with the names and signitures directly to the overseer? Why is that thought so unthinkable? Why should folks be ashamed to do it this way? Why would it take more courage than anyone inside apparently has?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 21, 2013 14:06:44 GMT -5
In regards to how it should be shortened; It's not a matter of editing out lines. It's a matter of reading, and really absorbing the message. Then a complete re-write in much fewer words. Like others have mentioned. You need to be captured by the first couple of sentences. Then wrap it up at the end with some line items of summarization. There is another interesting way to shorten such a necessity article and that is to outline it...slipping the points in at different levels.....when I was in English literature in college, we tried several different ways of writing,and the outline was one....the student that was assigned the outline style was given a subject of need of the college that the head hauchos had refused to look at. After the teacher had read that outline she took it around to different teachers at a teacher's mtg. and they all asked that the outline would be sent to the school's administrative department. So with the student's permission, it was sent to the doubting Thomas's of th ehigher levels of educational administration. The dean of the school gave the paper an A, the Vice principal gave it an A plus, the principal read it, made a copy of it and then graded the outline but gave it only a C.....the student's teacher wanted to know why the principal had given a C when the other 2 administrators gave it an A...the principal solemnly replied, "The article could have been written as a thesis or a story with a theory and it might have been better to read or look at, but this outline of the problems is so plain and definite that I couldn't read all of it without having to skip some places because I could tell that I'd find myself there in blacka nd white whether the student intended that or not and I gave it a C because I'm uncomfortable with it. WELL, what an admission...the principal called an emergency mtg. of the teachers etc. and they talked over what the outline had shown the principal and he was willing to learn more about whatever the need was....before it was all over, the school got what the controversial outline had written about and the principal was please with it! Otherwords it just took a very plainly spoken outline on a subject that had been asore spot for the schools'principal etc.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 14:08:52 GMT -5
Why not is because there are no publicly known councils of leadership. I am sure the petitioner would be happy to hear any suggestions that you may have. Don't be unreasonable Clearday .... EVERYONE within the group knows who their local overseer is -- the person that is responsible for the local policy amongst the workers on his staff and the interaction with the friends in his field of juridiction. This would very clearly be the natural person to be given the petition, and given the chance to respond regarding how it would be implemented or not implemented in his region. But I understand Clearday -- this would require a courage that is well outside what is allowed for group membership. Clearday, these are quite reasonable demands -- and well within the system of moral values that most honorable people would find uncontestable. Why would it be so out of bounds to at least present it to 2x2 leadership?? The fact that the thought of presenting such a petition of such basic sense and reason to an overseer, is so completely unthinkable to you, puts the whole organizational doctrine in serious question to me. I am just asking the questions Edgar, trying to get your ideas about how to present this. No need to jump to conclusions about what is "unthinkable" to me because this isn't about me nor have I any direct involvement in the petition other than I am supportive just like you. Now, yes, the demands are all completely reasonable and no, no one should fear signing such a petition or fear presenting it to an overseer. What you are asking is almost impossible for the petitioner. The petitioner is one person in a mid-West state. You are suggesting that she personally present it to all overseers all over the world. That would involve traveling all over the world to meet with those (100?) overseers if she even knew where they all were and had the time and money to do it.
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Post by Gene on Dec 21, 2013 14:10:24 GMT -5
With a few hundred brave souls, the petition could be read at every convention in the world during testimony time. Well at least they could probably get the first few sentence out before being ushered out. Maybe print a few hundred copies and stuff them under the windshield wipers of every car in the convention car park. Although I suspect they're well-patrolled these days. Why not do it the up-front way --- and give it along with the names and signitures directly to the overseer? Why is that thought so unthinkable? Why should folks be ashamed to do it this way? Why would it take more courage than anyone inside apparently has? I have little doubt it will find its way to the overseers.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 21, 2013 14:18:11 GMT -5
I didn't know that the author of the petition had been condemned! All I see is warnings of what courageous deeds can bring someone still in the fellowship and some ideas of how to make the petition easier read and come to the right conclusion the author is seeking for! I fear that the brick wall that she/he faces is not on TMB, but within her/his own religion! I pray that they do not reap what everybody else that has had the guts to post on here and other internet sites have reaped! I hope that in order for them to keep on in the fellowship doesn't come down to the "not reading anything on the web that is controversial to the fellowship/workership" And furthermore I hope that the petition reaches the workers that even the legal authorities have not reached as far as how CSA is to be handle OR how the sermon of the Aussie worker has failed to reach even his own peers of that part of the world. I pray that it comes readily and willingly from the workers and friends over all the world to work together to cleanse the faith of the corruption that is coloring the fellowship black before the world! She hasn't been condemned....yet. Snow just said no one should have to worry about the possibility. The only real debate that should go on should be over the validity and effectiveness of the requests.....not whether child protection should be an issue brought forward. Everyone should be on board for child protection. Surely everyone on TMB IS for CSA to be wiped out, but knowing the hierarchy of the 2x2's and how they've become so closely knit at the leadership level, it really is a discouraging thing to try! The rumors might be started about anyone writing such a thing and then it'll be held over their head that to be outside the good will of the workers and their church is to know eternal death...etc....I can see why someone who is insecure of where their salvation comes from and also fearful of the possible confrontation etc might not want to put themselves on that kind of plain!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 14:23:00 GMT -5
Why not do it the up-front way --- and give it along with the names and signitures directly to the overseer? Why is that thought so unthinkable? Why should folks be ashamed to do it this way? Why would it take more courage than anyone inside apparently has? I have little doubt it will find its way to the overseers. Likely it will --- but why not do it directly, the open and honest way. Planing (as the suggestion is)to use the gossip route is typical 2x2ism but leaves enormous room for misunderstanding and leaves it open to disregard. Clearday, no one has suggested that the petitioner do it to all overseers --- maybe just the one in her area. And if everyone that has the courage to sign it, would take it to the overseer in their area. Why is this so unthinkable? Is the interest in the issue insufficient for this simple contribution? Or are the personal risks too great? Would you take it to your overseer clearday?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 14:45:36 GMT -5
I have little doubt it will find its way to the overseers. Likely it will --- but why not do it directly, the open and honest way. Planing (as the suggestion is)to use the gossip route is typical 2x2ism but leaves enormous room for misunderstanding and leaves it open to disregard. Clearday, no one has suggested that the petitioner do it to all overseers --- maybe just the one in her area. And if everyone that has the courage to sign it, would take it to the overseer in their area. Why is this so unthinkable? Is the interest in the issue insufficient for this simple contribution? Or are the personal risks too great? Would you take it to your overseer clearday? Nothing is unthinkable except the physically impossible. Of course, I would have no problem presenting it to our overseer (other than logistical problems of tracking him down after a 10 hour drive) as well as our local workers. As far as interest in the issue goes, that remains to be seen as the petition has only been out there a few days and already has nearly 50 people showing enough interest to sign. I expect that awen89 has some plans in mind for disseminating this. Let's see what she has to say.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 14:49:52 GMT -5
Clearday, If it is hard to track down the overseers, I would guess that personally sending it in the mail is also a method with expecting some kind of response.
Would you (will you)do this? Or is it to risky??
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Post by sapphire on Dec 21, 2013 14:59:13 GMT -5
May I suggest email? I guarantee, if everyone emailed it to a few workers and overseers, it would certainly get around to the rest of them. I'd wait until after Arwen completes her revisions, then everyone blast away! There now, that wasn't so hard, was it?
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Post by holdmyhand on Dec 21, 2013 15:18:51 GMT -5
I have little doubt it will find its way to the overseers. Likely it will --- but why not do it directly, the open and honest way. Planing (as the suggestion is)to use the gossip route is typical 2x2ism but leaves enormous room for misunderstanding and leaves it open to disregard. Clearday, no one has suggested that the petitioner do it to all overseers --- maybe just the one in her area. And if everyone that has the courage to sign it, would take it to the overseer in their area. Why is this so unthinkable? Is the interest in the issue insufficient for this simple contribution? Or are the personal risks too great? Would you take it to your overseer clearday? Edgar I see what you are saying and it works when there is open communication, however because of the secretive and dishonest nature in the leadership a petition handed to the OS is likely to get filed directly under the carpet with everything else that is disagreeable or too hard to deal with. The grapevine isn’t the best method but it is probably the only way to raise awareness when information is stifled
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Post by arwen89 on Dec 21, 2013 16:29:06 GMT -5
Sorry that I can't contribute much or often on this board/thread. I have 3 kids, 2 of which are 5 year olds (twins!) and a 9 month old who's still nursing. Add to that, way too many distractions to count, and you'll find yourself a soul who keeps having to seek assurance from God that this is, indeed, the best she can do.
Let me try my best to answer some of the questions that I've read on here since my last read-through...
I have every intention of making sure at least my overseer, George Peterson, sees it. My thought is to present it to him (in whatever way possible at the time) once there are more signatures. As of right now, there are only a handful of signers that are actually in my field. Wouldn't it be wonderful to show MY overseer that enough ppl under HIS responsibility are concerned, so much so that he can't just go console a few and then ignore the issue altogether? He would HAVE to address it. As of right now, I don't feel like that's a step that should be taken just yet. In the future, absolutely! I have no doubt, however, that he will know about it before I formally present it to him. More than anything, I just want people to know. If I can open even one persons mind to this issue, and any other issues that go along with it, then I've done well. As for fearing for my soul if I don't have the approval of the workers? Oh puleez! I'm not delusional! My relationship with God has nothing to do with what others think or say of me. Even the *workers*
☆Arwen☆
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