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Post by fixit on Dec 20, 2013 3:33:14 GMT -5
To my knowledge there's not one Muslim majority country that provides its citizens with freedom of religious expression - something we take fore-granted in the West. Your knowledge is deficient. These are some Muslim Majority Countries with freedoms for other religions. Some other countries with very large Muslim populations have guaranteed freedom of religion, but are not listed because Muslims do not make up more than 50% of the population. Indonesia - 4th largest country in the world, democracy, freedom of religion Pakistan - Democracy, freedom of religion Malaysia - Democracy, freedom of religion Senegal - Democracy, freedom of religion Chad - Secular republic, freedom of religion Niger - Constitutional republic, freedom of religion Mali - Secular republic, freedom of religion Gambia - Secular state, freedom of religion Guinea-Bissau - Constitutional republic, freedom of religion Djibouti - Constitutional republic, state religion Islam, freedom of practice for all religions Egypt - Constitutional republic, Laws must accommodate Islamic Law, freedom of practice for all Abrahamic religions (8 million Christians with their own Pope) Jordan - Kingdom, State religion Islam, free practice of indigenous religions (includes Christianity) unless it violates public order or morality. Syria - Republic - Christian, Druze, and Jewish minorities operate their own legal systems. Turkey - Secular republic, no laws regarding practice of religion. Azerbaijan - Secular republic, constitution liberty to practice or not practice any religion of preference. Turkmenistan - Secular republic, government oversees practice of Islam, constitutional freedom of religion and separation of religion and state. Uzbekistan - Secular republic, constitution guarantees free practice of religion and separation of religion and state. Kyrgyzstan - Secular republic, freedom of religion with strict supervision of practice of Islam. Kazakhstan - Constitutional republic, 2008 government creating a freedom of religion law, open practice of many non-Muslim religions. Qatar - State religion Islam, constitutional full freedom of public assembly and public worship. United Arab Emirates - Various courts, 25% non-Muslims practice openly, only Arab country to permit an Indian temple. 2x2 convention permitted. Law prohibits Muslims from converting to other religions. Bangladesh - State religion Islam, constitutional right to practice the religion of one's choice, subject to law, public order, and decency. Brunei - Sultanate - state religion Islam, guarantee of religious freedom with limits on distribution of no-Muslim literature. Albania - Neutral on questions of religion and conscience, only 15% of Muslim population considers religion an important aspect of their lives. Kosovo - UN mission reports respect for freedom of religion increased since civil war. Partly -- but primarily because of colonization by western countries who exploited them and supported corrupt dictatorships. Your knowledge is deficient. Take Turkey as an example: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/10/turkey-free-speech-erdogan-crackdown
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Post by rational on Dec 20, 2013 8:37:35 GMT -5
I must have misread your post. :) Makes me feel normal after all!This was addressing the basic definition of sexual functioning. Pleasure is not a requirement nor does in indicate that the basic function is present. Gee. I thought the vasectomy made me function a lot better. hahaha Bob, The Society for the Preservation of the Human Species (SFTPOTHS) thanks you for your lack of contribution!!!
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Post by fixit on Dec 20, 2013 13:28:54 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Dec 20, 2013 14:28:27 GMT -5
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Post by Mary on Dec 20, 2013 15:04:58 GMT -5
Jordan, a mostly Muslim country has a certain number of Christian seats reserved in parliament for Christians. Foreign evangelical Missionaries have been kicked out in recent years but that is the result of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches insistence to the government, it did not come from the government itself. But then there are restrictions, an elder person cannot witness the Christian faith to a younger person (I guess Muslim), it is against the law, but they can witness to an equal but then a Muslim can witness to anyone. So freedom of religion with restrictions. Many restrictions. No foreign evangelicals, no witnessing to younger or unequal person, so is it freedom of religion because often in these countries Christians are not allowed to witness to others. These so called freedom of religion Muslims countries are not true freedom at all.
Also Syria has had freedom of religion until now the Sunni extremist's are trying to take over.
I would say Egypt has too with the Coptic church, Baptist and other churches alive and well until recently, and no longer safe but then it may also be against the law to witness to Muslim's younger or less equal than yourself.
Protests by religious groups does not mean the government do not allow freedom of religion. e.g. turkey, Syria.
These are 2 different issues. Freedom of religion allowed by the government, and persecution of different religious groups by the people. The list Bob has given is government allowed freedom of religion but saying Turkey does not allow freedom of religion because of protests or killing of certain religious groups does not mean that the government does not allow freedom of religion. It does.
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Post by rational on Dec 20, 2013 16:25:17 GMT -5
What kind of warped religion is this??? It is just a different view on what could be almost any religion. If you believe in a paranormal being that can make any demands people will be able to live their lives as they wish and claim it is the will of that being. At least as they see it.
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Post by fixit on Dec 20, 2013 16:37:16 GMT -5
Jordan, a mostly Muslim country has a certain number of Christian seats reserved in parliament for Christians. Foreign evangelical Missionaries have been kicked out in recent years but that is the result of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches insistence to the government, it did not come from the government itself. But then there are restrictions, an elder person cannot witness the Christian faith to a younger person (I guess Muslim), it is against the law, but they can witness to an equal but then a Muslim can witness to anyone. So freedom of religion with restrictions. Many restrictions. No foreign evangelicals, no witnessing to younger or unequal person, so is it freedom of religion because often in these countries Christians are not allowed to witness to others. These so called freedom of religion Muslims countries are not true freedom at all. Also Syria has had freedom of religion until now the Sunni extremist's are trying to take over. I would say Egypt has too with the Coptic church, Baptist and other churches alive and well until recently, and no longer safe but then it may also be against the law to witness to Muslim's younger or less equal than yourself. Protests by religious groups does not mean the government do not allow freedom of religion. e.g. turkey, Syria. These are 2 different issues. Freedom of religion allowed by the government, and persecution of different religious groups by the people. The list Bob has given is government allowed freedom of religion but saying Turkey does not allow freedom of religion because of protests or killing of certain religious groups does not mean that the government does not allow freedom of religion. It does. I still haven't found one Muslim majority country that protects religious freedom like we've come to expect in Western countries. Turkey's formerly secular stance is continuing to be eroded, and freedom of religious expression is not tolerated as can be seen in the prison sentence for a tweet: www.eurasianet.org/node/66863
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 20, 2013 16:37:54 GMT -5
Your knowledge is deficient. These are some Muslim Majority Countries with freedoms for other religions. Some other countries with very large Muslim populations have guaranteed freedom of religion, but are not listed because Muslims do not make up more than 50% of the population. Indonesia - 4th largest country in the world, democracy, freedom of religion Pakistan - Democracy, freedom of religion Malaysia - Democracy, freedom of religion Senegal - Democracy, freedom of religion Chad - Secular republic, freedom of religion Niger - Constitutional republic, freedom of religion Mali - Secular republic, freedom of religion Gambia - Secular state, freedom of religion Guinea-Bissau - Constitutional republic, freedom of religion Djibouti - Constitutional republic, state religion Islam, freedom of practice for all religions Egypt - Constitutional republic, Laws must accommodate Islamic Law, freedom of practice for all Abrahamic religions (8 million Christians with their own Pope) Jordan - Kingdom, State religion Islam, free practice of indigenous religions (includes Christianity) unless it violates public order or morality. Syria - Republic - Christian, Druze, and Jewish minorities operate their own legal systems. Turkey - Secular republic, no laws regarding practice of religion. Azerbaijan - Secular republic, constitution liberty to practice or not practice any religion of preference. Turkmenistan - Secular republic, government oversees practice of Islam, constitutional freedom of religion and separation of religion and state. Uzbekistan - Secular republic, constitution guarantees free practice of religion and separation of religion and state. Kyrgyzstan - Secular republic, freedom of religion with strict supervision of practice of Islam. Kazakhstan - Constitutional republic, 2008 government creating a freedom of religion law, open practice of many non-Muslim religions. Qatar - State religion Islam, constitutional full freedom of public assembly and public worship. United Arab Emirates - Various courts, 25% non-Muslims practice openly, only Arab country to permit an Indian temple. 2x2 convention permitted. Law prohibits Muslims from converting to other religions. Bangladesh - State religion Islam, constitutional right to practice the religion of one's choice, subject to law, public order, and decency. Brunei - Sultanate - state religion Islam, guarantee of religious freedom with limits on distribution of no-Muslim literature. Albania - Neutral on questions of religion and conscience, only 15% of Muslim population considers religion an important aspect of their lives. Kosovo - UN mission reports respect for freedom of religion increased since civil war. Partly -- but primarily because of colonization by western countries who exploited them and supported corrupt dictatorships. Your knowledge is deficient. Take Turkey as an example: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/10/turkey-free-speech-erdogan-crackdownYou didn't ask me for a list of breaches of constitutional freedoms.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 20, 2013 16:51:15 GMT -5
Jordan, a mostly Muslim country has a certain number of Christian seats reserved in parliament for Christians. Foreign evangelical Missionaries have been kicked out in recent years but that is the result of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches insistence to the government, it did not come from the government itself. But then there are restrictions, an elder person cannot witness the Christian faith to a younger person (I guess Muslim), it is against the law, but they can witness to an equal but then a Muslim can witness to anyone. So freedom of religion with restrictions. Many restrictions. No foreign evangelicals, no witnessing to younger or unequal person, so is it freedom of religion because often in these countries Christians are not allowed to witness to others. These so called freedom of religion Muslims countries are not true freedom at all. Also Syria has had freedom of religion until now the Sunni extremist's are trying to take over. I would say Egypt has too with the Coptic church, Baptist and other churches alive and well until recently, and no longer safe but then it may also be against the law to witness to Muslim's younger or less equal than yourself. Protests by religious groups does not mean the government do not allow freedom of religion. e.g. turkey, Syria. These are 2 different issues. Freedom of religion allowed by the government, and persecution of different religious groups by the people. The list Bob has given is government allowed freedom of religion but saying Turkey does not allow freedom of religion because of protests or killing of certain religious groups does not mean that the government does not allow freedom of religion. It does. I still haven't found one Muslim majority country that protects religious freedom like we've come to expect in Western countries. Turkey's formerly secular stance is continuing to be eroded, and freedom of religious expression is not tolerated as can be seen in the prison sentence for a tweet: www.eurasianet.org/node/66863Freedom of religion is a non-issue in the US -- we all have guns so we can just shoot them if they look funny. But okay, I get it, you have a fascination (or maybe an obsession) with the evils you consider intrinsic to anything related to Muslims. What exactly are you looking for -- someone to argue your point with? You asked me for some positive information, I gave it to you, so now you consider me a "deficient" for not looking for the negative exceptions to the law - which you DIDN'T ask for.
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Post by Mary on Dec 20, 2013 16:56:38 GMT -5
Is the recent jailing of the guys in the UK for killing the British soldier, apart from being sick and evil, are their actions freedom of religion? Can we say Britain has freedom of religion now. Whose religion, Christian and Jews, thou shalt not kill (although jews do) or Muslims, kill the infidels especially those who kill you.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 20, 2013 17:19:25 GMT -5
Gee. I thought the vasectomy made me function a lot better. hahaha Bob, The Society for the Preservation of the Human Species (SFTPOTHS) thanks you for your lack of contribution!!! Oh, I've contributed. As a matter of fact my number of grandchildren jumped from 2 to 5 in 2013. And we're multiethnic - one of them is Croatian and two of them are Hungarian. Among the five of them they have 8 passports.
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Post by fixit on Dec 20, 2013 18:27:56 GMT -5
I still haven't found one Muslim majority country that protects religious freedom like we've come to expect in Western countries. Turkey's formerly secular stance is continuing to be eroded, and freedom of religious expression is not tolerated as can be seen in the prison sentence for a tweet: www.eurasianet.org/node/66863Freedom of religion is a non-issue in the US -- we all have guns so we can just shoot them if they look funny. But okay, I get it, you have a fascination (or maybe an obsession) with the evils you consider intrinsic to anything related to Muslims. What exactly are you looking for -- someone to argue your point with? You asked me for some positive information, I gave it to you, so now you consider me a "deficient" for not looking for the negative exceptions to the law - which you DIDN'T ask for. I hate religious persecution, whether its committed by Christians, Moslems, Jews, or anyone else. The question I'm asking myself, and anyone else who's interested, is whether Islamic societies are compatible with Western societies in terms of our values with respect to freedom of religion. In our society, we value the right of citizens to critique religious beliefs. We allow a citizen to burn the Bible publicly if he so desires. We allow Muslims to build a Mosque and preach his religion freely. Try building a church and preaching Christ in Iran or Saudi Arabia! I'm interested to know if there is any Islamic society that has such values. I question the wisdom of accepting Islamic into Western societies immigrants whose values are incompatible with Islamic values.
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Post by Mary on Dec 20, 2013 18:35:19 GMT -5
There are churches in Iran.
Today, there are at least 600 churches for 250,000 Christians in Iran. Wikipedia.
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Post by fixit on Dec 20, 2013 19:24:00 GMT -5
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Post by Mary on Dec 20, 2013 20:40:39 GMT -5
Regarding the first link you posted 2 posts above fixit 'Christian pastor faces execution for offending Islam', I was interested in this statement.
Quote: "Nadarkhani was offered the chance to recant his Christian faith and return to Islam, but he refused. He was sentenced to death and has been held in captivity ever since."
It suggests that the pastor was a Muslim who converted to Christianity. I didn't read that so my guess is that is probably not what it appears to be. Why I say this is because Muslims believe everyone is born Muslim (even me and you) and that they 'convert' to Christianity or another religion but they 'revert' (back to) Islam - that which they were born. They believe Jesus and all the prophets were Muslim. Muslims say Jesus said he is a Muslim (not sure if it is in the Quran or not). My defence is that Islam started a few 100 years after Jesus. There is a verse in the Quran which apparently says that Mohammad said he is the first Muslim.
I wonder if Bert would say this man is a true servant of God or a false pastor?
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Post by fixit on Dec 20, 2013 21:10:53 GMT -5
What has Christian history got to do with a contemporary American Muslim expert advocating female genital cutting? Nothing. It has to do with educating you. So you get me educated so that I understand atrocities have been committed by Christians as well as Muslims, and genital cutting is committed by others besides Muslims. How does that make it acceptable for a contemporary American Muslim expert to advocate female genital cutting?
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 20, 2013 22:04:46 GMT -5
Freedom of religion is a non-issue in the US -- we all have guns so we can just shoot them if they look funny. But okay, I get it, you have a fascination (or maybe an obsession) with the evils you consider intrinsic to anything related to Muslims. What exactly are you looking for -- someone to argue your point with? You asked me for some positive information, I gave it to you, so now you consider me a "deficient" for not looking for the negative exceptions to the law - which you DIDN'T ask for. I hate religious persecution, whether its committed by Christians, Moslems, Jews, or anyone else. The question I'm asking myself, and anyone else who's interested, is whether Islamic societies are compatible with Western societies in terms of our values with respect to freedom of religion. They seem to do very well in Western democratic societies, but why don't you start hanging out with some Muslims to see what they're up to. And some people get assassinated for it, no matter what WE value. So we do. Some people shoot Muslims who do that. Why are you specializing in dictatorships? I thought you wanted to know how Muslims behave in democracies. I gave you the information about an Islamic society that has such values -- have you checked? You don't need to use present day Muslims to find out if Muslims can share our values. There have been Muslims in substantial numbers in this country since very early colonial times -- you should meet some of them. The only real problem with immigrant Muslims today is that they are the latest despised invading race, and as we've already heard in this group -- their "practice" of religious freedom is offensive and insulting. It used to be the crisis of Catholic immigrants who were going to completely destroy the values of the nation.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 20, 2013 22:09:25 GMT -5
Nothing. It has to do with educating you. So you get me educated so that I understand atrocities have been committed by Christians as well as Muslims, and genital cutting is committed by others besides Muslims. How does that make it acceptable for a contemporary American Muslim expert to advocate female genital cutting? Then go to school.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 20, 2013 22:19:33 GMT -5
Regarding the first link you posted 2 posts above fixit 'Christian pastor faces execution for offending Islam', I was interested in this statement. Quote: "Nadarkhani was offered the chance to recant his Christian faith and return to Islam, but he refused. He was sentenced to death and has been held in captivity ever since." It suggests that the pastor was a Muslim who converted to Christianity. I didn't read that so my guess is that is probably not what it appears to be. Why I say this is because Muslims believe everyone is born Muslim (even me and you) and that they 'convert' to Christianity or another religion but they 'revert' (back to) Islam - that which they were born. They believe Jesus and all the prophets were Muslim. Muslims say Jesus said he is a Muslim (not sure if it is in the Quran or not). My defence is that Islam started a few 100 years after Jesus. There is a verse in the Quran which apparently says that Mohammad said he is the first Muslim. I wonder if Bert would say this man is a true servant of God or a false pastor? The word "muslim" in Arabic means submitted (to god). That's why everyone is "muslim" at birth. But Muhammad's followers did not need a name for their religion until they were ejected from membership in a Jewish community for political purpose. Somewhat like when followers of Jesus needed a new name for themselves (Christian) when the Messianics didn't approve of them any more. !!!
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 20, 2013 22:26:05 GMT -5
There are churches in Iran. Today, there are at least 600 churches for 250,000 Christians in Iran. Wikipedia. Religious intolerance in many of those countries is not the REAL problem. It's a symptom that Westerners refuse to contribute to the arrogance and domination of Western imperialism in their countries. Which does indeed confirm that the god of the West is money, not God; and capitalism, not democracy.
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Post by Mary on Dec 20, 2013 22:44:32 GMT -5
That is the true meaning of Muslim but to a Muslim saying we are all born Muslim they are referring to the religion. If it was a matter of meaning submitted to God then there would be no need for a person to revert back to being Muslim as they are already submitted to God whether Christian or Muslim. It would be useless to try and get the pastor to become A Muslims when he is already submitted to God. Their purpose is to get people to follow islam.
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Post by Mary on Dec 20, 2013 22:46:07 GMT -5
Religious tolerance is a big problem in those countries, a real big problem. It is a major problem.
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Post by Mary on Dec 20, 2013 22:53:57 GMT -5
Bob wrote: But Muhammad's followers did not need a name for their religion until they were ejected from membership in a Jewish community for political purpose.
Mohammad and his men went everywhere they could killing people. He saw a Jewish woman, got his men to kill her husband and took her to marry her himself. Imagine marrying a man who just had your husband killed. He even got his adopted son to divorce his wife because he wanted to marry her and marry her he did. He would stop caravan's and kill and rob people. People who would not submit to him he killed. Any wonder the Jews didn't want him. He spread his religion by the sword taking women on the way, forcing them into marriage and bringing their kids up Muslims. People rarely converted, they were forced or killed. Islam spread by the sword and fear.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 20, 2013 23:03:51 GMT -5
That is the true meaning of Muslim but to a Muslim saying we are all born Muslim they are referring to the religion. If it was a matter of meaning submitted to God then there would be no need for a person to revert back to being Muslim as they are already submitted to God whether Christian or Muslim. It would be useless to try and get the pastor to become A Muslims when he is already submitted to God. Their purpose is to get people to follow islam. I don't know who this reconverted Muslim is, but I know he has to be from some sect of Islam that does not permit people to convert to Christianity. That's not the case with all Muslims -- definitely.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 20, 2013 23:05:36 GMT -5
Bob wrote: But Muhammad's followers did not need a name for their religion until they were ejected from membership in a Jewish community for political purpose. Mohammad and his men went everywhere they could killing people. He saw a Jewish woman, got his men to kill her husband and took her to marry her himself. Imagine marrying a man who just had your husband killed. He even got his adopted son to divorce his wife because he wanted to marry her and marry her he did. He would stop caravan's and kill and rob people. People who would not submit to him he killed. Any wonder the Jews didn't want him. He spread his religion by the sword taking women on the way, forcing them into marriage and bringing their kids up Muslims. People rarely converted, they were forced or killed. Islam spread by the sword and fear. Where in the world did you get that information?
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Post by Mary on Dec 20, 2013 23:08:51 GMT -5
Read about the life of Mohammad. The Jewish woman he married and his adopted son's wife. Robbing carvan's which I guess is camel caravans. Spreading Islam but the sword.
Have you not read about his life?
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 20, 2013 23:10:54 GMT -5
Read about the life of Mohammad. The Jewish woman he married and his adopted sons wife. Robbing carvan's which I guess is camel caravans. Spreading Islam but the sword. Have you not read about his life? Yes. I've read a lot about his life -- and not all of it written by Muslims. But I have read that Jews use Christian baby blood to make bread.
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Post by Mary on Dec 20, 2013 23:15:16 GMT -5
How does what Jews did make it ok for Muslims to do what they did? Muslim's excuses are that Mohammad married the Jewish woman because her husband got killed and he married her to protect her. and he made his adopted son divorce his wife and married her because his son was treating her bad. Ask any Muslim. Mind you there are Muslims who did not know he married his first wife when she was 9 years old nor how many wives he had. He said God told him that men could only have 4 wives. He had 13? because he was a prophet and could have as many as he wanted.
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