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Post by Mary on Dec 18, 2013 14:38:19 GMT -5
Is Islam incompatible with our western values?
You could ask, is Christianity incompatible with western values?
Depending on what you mean by western, incompatible and values. Maybe Christians are more compatible with Muslims than western values. Many Christians are against same sex marriage and so are Muslims, sex outside marriage etc.
We can ask, is Christianity western or not? Certainly its values originally made up our society but western society has got away from that and is now more secular. It seems like neither Christian nor Islamic values are compatible with secular values with the changes that have taken place in society in recent years.
Having said that, most Muslims live peacefully in western society the same as other religious groups. Muslim people - is that what you mean by Islam? Many Muslims say do not judge Islam by Muslims.
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Post by Sylvestra on Dec 18, 2013 15:51:07 GMT -5
According to Amy Etiquette of what year? 1902? Women want to be equal now, you know! In the situation described, the female Realtor hugged my husband when he walked up. Believe me, it was offensive to everyone except the Muslims present. So --- it was their house. Anyway, they were offensive even before he tried to shake his hand -- they are Muslims, after all! If they were good red neck Americans they might have shot you for looking at them the wrong way. No, it wasn't "their" house.......yet. My husband, thank goodness, doesn't have the attitude you do.....they were not offensive BEFORE the hand shaking fiasco. That's the conclusion YOU jumped to.....but, I expected that from you. So, for my part 'nuff said.
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Post by Gene on Dec 18, 2013 17:47:46 GMT -5
We run into "stuff" with the Muslims on a day-to-day basis. My husband just experienced it again. He is a home inspector, and at the beginning of the inspections he introduces himself and determine who each person in the "group" is husband/wife/buyers, in-laws of buyers, sellers, and agents etc. As he is introduced/or introduces himself, he warmly shakes hands with each person. Everyone was cool on this particular inspection until he came to the Muslim wife, who put both hands behind her and stepped back when he put his hand out to shake with her. All the other females in the group shook his hand, except she had to reject him being fully Muslim (head garb and everything). He won't do THAT again, but it was really offensive. The Muslims are constantly screaming and protesting about how offended they are about things. So, am I and my husband, offended by a LOT of what they do and stand for AND are trying to change our Western society to. "Muslims screaming and protesting about how offended they are..." And now here you are, screaming and protesting about how offended you and your husband are. Let me join in the fun! I'm offended at you taking offense at someone else freely expressing their cultural customs. It would be like me taking offense at you...well...never mind. Can't think of a case where my taking offense would not be justified G
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Post by Gene on Dec 18, 2013 17:59:12 GMT -5
"Muslims screaming and protesting about how offended they are..." And now here you are, screaming and protesting about how offended you and your husband are. Let me join in the fun! I'm offended at you taking offense at someone else freely expressing their cultural customs. It would be like me taking offense at you...well...never mind. Can't think of a case where my taking offense would not be justified G I'm not offended if it's their cultural custom to not shake hands. It's their cultural custom of terrorizing innocent civilians I'm more offended by. Honest(ly), Abe -- I don't think "terrorizing innocent civilians" is an accurate portrayal of Muslim culture, any more than picketing military funerals, bombing abortion clinics and practicing polygamy with underage girls is an accurate portrayal of Christian culture.
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Post by Gene on Dec 18, 2013 18:08:42 GMT -5
And yes, I realize that is stereotyping Muslims, but still...When some members of your religion make it their life's goal to brutally kill innocent civilians of the country you now live in, you could at least (as a normal, good Muslim) make a better attempt at keeping the peace with those people your extremist co-Muslim's are trying to slaughter. I see what you're saying... but I'm not sure it's proper to expect a peaceable Muslim woman to accept physical contact with other males as a way to compensate for her cousin (for example) who strapped on a bomb and blew up a WalMart. That would be like asking a good professing woman to cut her hair and wear pants to compensate for the workers who commit CSA. Well, sort of. I suck at drawing analogies.
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Post by fixit on Dec 18, 2013 19:04:46 GMT -5
I don't particularly like the way Islam treats gays:
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 18, 2013 20:03:42 GMT -5
So --- it was their house. Anyway, they were offensive even before he tried to shake his hand -- they are Muslims, after all! If they were good red neck Americans they might have shot you for looking at them the wrong way. No, it wasn't "their" house.......yet. My husband, thank goodness, doesn't have the attitude you do.....they were not offensive BEFORE the hand shaking fiasco. That's the conclusion YOU jumped to.....but, I expected that from you. So, for my part 'nuff said. I just suspected your husband had the same attitude about Muslims as you do. Sorry.
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Post by fixit on Dec 18, 2013 20:25:46 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with Muslims.
I do have a problem with some cruel beliefs they have.
Its better that they don't try to afflict them on western societies.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 18, 2013 20:30:03 GMT -5
Female Genital mutilation is not a religious practice. It is a cultural one. Would it be OK if it were a religious practice? Is circumcision ever OK? Male of female? Religious or cultural? Should mutilation be part of raising any child? Q 1: Circumcision may be a medical necessity -- I believe more so in men than in women. Q 2: People debate this, but male circumcision does not interfere with normal sexual function. Female circumcision is practiced for the specific purpose of destroying normal sexual function. Q 3: Be as religious as you want -- but mayhem is a punishable crime. In this religio/political climate expect male circumcision to be classified as plastic surgery. Q 4: Morally, I would say of course not. But "mutilation" is too vague a term to use in law. It would have to have a specific definition -- we already have "mayhem". But Mary is right -- FGM is not supported by Islam -- it is entirely cultural. Of course, fanatical fundamentalists would find its practice to be most expedient in preserving appropriate morality.
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Post by Sylvestra on Dec 18, 2013 20:37:46 GMT -5
No, it wasn't "their" house.......yet. My husband, thank goodness, doesn't have the attitude you do.....they were not offensive BEFORE the hand shaking fiasco. That's the conclusion YOU jumped to.....but, I expected that from you. So, for my part 'nuff said. I just suspected your husband had the same attitude about Muslims as you do. Sorry. We are both courteous to all people we do business with.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 18, 2013 20:58:31 GMT -5
I just suspected your husband had the same attitude about Muslims as you do. Sorry. We are both courteous to all people we do business with. Well, I'm glad for that!
Maybe you perhaps could also do that with the people who post here as well?
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Post by fixit on Dec 18, 2013 21:02:59 GMT -5
Mary is right -- FGM is not supported by Islam -- it is entirely cultural. Of course, fanatical fundamentalists would find its practice to be most expedient in preserving appropriate morality. Its interesting that you dismiss it as the work of "fanatical fundamentalists". The democratically elected Muslim Brotherhood government of Egypt encouraged FGM. That government happened to have the backing of another democratically elected Muslim leader - Erdogan of Turkey. I agree that many in Egypt turned against the government they had elected, but Erdogan continues to condemn America for not supporting the Muslim Brotherhood government enough. I agree though, that FGM is not uniquely Islamic and not favoured by all Muslims.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 18, 2013 21:21:23 GMT -5
I just suspected your husband had the same attitude about Muslims as you do. Sorry. We are both courteous to all people we do business with. I didn't say you weren't courteous. I'm sure you were. I just know that you have a prejudicial attitude about Muslims.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 18, 2013 21:35:39 GMT -5
Mary is right -- FGM is not supported by Islam -- it is entirely cultural. Of course, fanatical fundamentalists would find its practice to be most expedient in preserving appropriate morality. Its interesting that you dismiss it as the work of "fanatical fundamentalists".
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Post by rational on Dec 18, 2013 21:40:58 GMT -5
Q 1: Circumcision may be a medical necessity -- I believe more so in men than in women. So is amputation. Probably equal between men and women. Not always. In some cases it is to eliminate the pleasure of coitus. The sexual function remains intact. And in some cases it could be considered as such for females as well. In either instance - let the user decide. After the individual reaches adulthood let them decide. How about "unnecessary body modification of minors"? And male circumcision? That is supported by religions. Plus it is the will of god.
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Post by fixit on Dec 18, 2013 22:32:16 GMT -5
Me: That government happened to have the backing of another democratically elected Muslim leader - Erdogan of Turkey.
Bob: So? That government had the backing of many western democracies. And Turkey is 99% Muslim -- don't expect to find a non-Muslim president in that country.
Me: Are you saying Erdogan supported the Muslim Brotherhood simply because they are Muslim?
Why do you think the freely elected Muslim government of Egypt encouraged FGM?
I think its because they believed it was in the interests of Islam.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 18, 2013 22:34:03 GMT -5
Q 1: Circumcision may be a medical necessity -- I believe more so in men than in women. So is amputation. Probably equal between men and women. Although there is a very small portion of the population who voluntarily ask to have a limb(s) amputated - considered a psychological disorder but not a criminal act if performed on oneself, interestingly. OUCHHHH
Not always. In some cases it is to eliminate the pleasure of coitus. The sexual function remains intact. If I'm not mistaken it's primarily to eliminate pleasure in FGM -- I consider that normal sexual function.And in some cases it could be considered as such for females as well. In either instance - let the user decide. After the individual reaches adulthood let them decide. Absolutely.How about "unnecessary body modification of minors"? I think that would work. Expect an exception concerning male circumcision, though. The Tea Party in Arizona would stage a rebellion is that weren't added.And male circumcision? That is supported by religions. Plus it is the will of god. Yes, male circumcision is considered a religious rite in Judaism and an act of piety in Islam. It is a standard practice in some other cultures as well -- a transition into manhood in many societies. I opt for the anesthetic version!
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 18, 2013 22:37:26 GMT -5
Me: That government happened to have the backing of another democratically elected Muslim leader - Erdogan of Turkey.
Bob: So? That government had the backing of many western democracies. And Turkey is 99% Muslim -- don't expect to find a non-Muslim president in that country.Me: Are you saying Erdogan supported the Muslim Brotherhood simply because they are Muslim? Why do you think the freely elected Muslim government of Egypt encouraged FGM? I think its because they believed it was in the interests of Islam. It wasn't me who thought that. I'm somewhat doubtful they did advocate FMG.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 18, 2013 22:46:40 GMT -5
And yes, I realize that is stereotyping Muslims, but still...When some members of your religion make it their life's goal to brutally kill innocent civilians of the country you now live in, you could at least (as a normal, good Muslim) make a better attempt at keeping the peace with those people your extremist co-Muslim's are trying to slaughter. No religion can withstand the actions of its extremist radicals. (A quote) But it is the responsibility of the rest of us not to stereotype the peacefully religious of any stripe.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 18, 2013 22:54:57 GMT -5
I don't particularly like the way Islam treats gays: This was good Christian practice in the US as late as 1968 -- Remember??? Remember???
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Post by fixit on Dec 18, 2013 23:14:28 GMT -5
I don't particularly like the way Islam treats gays: This was good Christian practice in the US as late as 1968 -- Remember??? Remember??? Who was the last American homosexual to hang for being a homosexual?
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Post by fixit on Dec 18, 2013 23:20:53 GMT -5
It is not ok religious or otherwise. fixit was saying it was a Muslim practice I was responding by saying it was actually practiced by Christians too and that it was a cultural rather than religious practice. I would have preferred a response regarding what you believe rather than a question. You ask what I believe rather than your belief on the matter. I am still left not knowing what you believe. A statement saying that it is not ok cultural or religious, male or female and that mutilation should not be part of raising any child or the opposite depending on what you believe. Even western culture had circumcision of males until x number of years ago. It was supposed to be for reasons of cleanliness. Now I prefer the look too , but then I am female. Maybe a man sees it differently. Here's an American Islamic expert who has a plan for FGM. He advocates genital cutting but not genital mutilation:
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 18, 2013 23:25:17 GMT -5
This was good Christian practice in the US as late as 1968 -- Remember??? Remember??? Who was the last American homosexual to hang for being a homosexual? You know exactly what I meant. Out of order blacks and whites suspected of helping blacks was the evil people wanted to get rid of. There was another probably more horrifying treatment for the sin of homosexuality, practiced at least until October 12, 1998. Do a Google search on Matthew Shepherd.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 18, 2013 23:28:20 GMT -5
It is not ok religious or otherwise. fixit was saying it was a Muslim practice I was responding by saying it was actually practiced by Christians too and that it was a cultural rather than religious practice. I would have preferred a response regarding what you believe rather than a question. You ask what I believe rather than your belief on the matter. I am still left not knowing what you believe. A statement saying that it is not ok cultural or religious, male or female and that mutilation should not be part of raising any child or the opposite depending on what you believe. Even western culture had circumcision of males until x number of years ago. It was supposed to be for reasons of cleanliness. Now I prefer the look too , but then I am female. Maybe a man sees it differently. Here's an American Islamic expert who has a plan for FGM. He advocates genital cutting but not genital mutilation: Fixit - I think you need a good course in Christian history.
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Post by fixit on Dec 18, 2013 23:41:42 GMT -5
Fixit - I think you need a good course in Christian history. Christian cruelty doesn't make Islamic cruelty OK. I hate Christian cruelty as much as I hate Islamic cruelty.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 18, 2013 23:50:03 GMT -5
Fixit - I think you need a good course in Christian history. Christian cruelty doesn't make Islamic cruelty OK. I hate Christian cruelty as much as I hate Islamic cruelty. That's good to hear. You should organize the Christian community to publish its separation from those Christians' offences. Of course, you'll have to deliver the message to MUSLIMS -- telling Christians that is like preaching to the choir.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 18, 2013 23:50:42 GMT -5
Here's an American Islamic expert who has a plan for FGM. He advocates genital cutting but not genital mutilation: Fixit - I think you need a good course in Christian history. Here is one way that Christians, NOT Muslims, are attempting to change history and what children are taught in our own country:
Evolution lessons will stay in Texas biology textbook, board says Eric Gay / AP file A panel of experts has rejected concerns by religious conservatives in Texas that a high school biology textbook contained factual errors about evolution and a state board approved the book on Wednesday for use in public schools. The debate over the Pearson Biology textbook was the latest episode of a lengthy battle by evangelicals in Texas to insert Christian and Biblical teachings into public school textbooks.
Two years ago, conservatives pushed for changes in history textbooks, including one that would have downplayed Thomas Jefferson's role in American history for his support of the separation of church and state. That effort was unsuccessful. The second-most populous U.S. state, Texas influences textbook selections for schools nationwide. In the case of the biology book, an unidentified volunteer reviewer complained to the Texas State Board of Education that it presents evolution as scientific fact rather than a theory, which conflicts with the creation story written in the Book of Genesis in the Bible. The reviewer concluded that the text, which includes lessons on natural selection and the Earth's cooling process, are errors that needed to be corrected by publisher Pearson Education, one of the nation's largest producers of school textbooks and a unit of Pearson Plc. The opinion caused the board to delay approval of the textbook and appoint a three-member panel of science experts to analyze the book's lessons and report any factual mistakes. "The professors didn't recommend any changes so the book is now approved," Texas Education Agency spokeswoman Debbie Ratcliffe said in an email. "Schools can purchase it this spring for use in the fall." Until the expert panel ruled, Pearson was not able to market its book as approved by the board to school districts in Texas. The state's more than 1,000 public school districts are permitted to order their own books and materials, but most follow the state-approved list.
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Post by fixit on Dec 19, 2013 0:34:15 GMT -5
Christian cruelty doesn't make Islamic cruelty OK. I hate Christian cruelty as much as I hate Islamic cruelty. That's good to hear. You should organize the Christian community to publish its separation from those Christians' offences. Of course, you'll have to deliver the message to MUSLIMS -- telling Christians that is like preaching to the choir. How would I go about finding Christian suicide bombers to preach to?
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