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Post by fixit on Dec 17, 2013 18:23:04 GMT -5
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Post by Sylvestra on Dec 17, 2013 21:22:48 GMT -5
We run into "stuff" with the Muslims on a day-to-day basis. My husband just experienced it again. He is a home inspector, and at the beginning of the inspections he introduces himself and determine who each person in the "group" is husband/wife/buyers, in-laws of buyers, sellers, and agents etc. As he is introduced/or introduces himself, he warmly shakes hands with each person. Everyone was cool on this particular inspection until he came to the Muslim wife, who put both hands behind her and stepped back when he put his hand out to shake with her. All the other females in the group shook his hand, except she had to reject him being fully Muslim (head garb and everything). He won't do THAT again, but it was really offensive. The Muslims are constantly screaming and protesting about how offended they are about things. So, am I and my husband, offended by a LOT of what they do and stand for AND are trying to change our Western society to.
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Post by fixit on Dec 17, 2013 21:33:16 GMT -5
Yes, that's an example of what other countries don't want to do. I'm surprised Britain allowed it. Its called multiculturalism.... Could it happen in America?
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Post by Mary on Dec 17, 2013 22:22:22 GMT -5
Female Genital mutilation is not a religious practice. It is a cultural one. You will find it African countries regardless of religion. Is it ok if Christians do it but not ok if a Muslims do it? It is usually done by the women.
Wikipedia: FGM is practised as a cultural ritual by ethnic groups in 27 countries in sub-Saharan and Northeast Africa, and to a lesser extent in Asia, the Middle East and within immigrant communities elsewhere
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Post by fixit on Dec 17, 2013 22:31:21 GMT -5
Female Genital mutilation is not a religious practice. It is a cultural one. You will find it African countries regardless of religion. Is it ok if Christians do it but not ok if a Muslims do it? It is usually done by the women. Wikipedia: FGM is practised as a cultural ritual by ethnic groups in 27 countries in sub-Saharan and Northeast Africa, and to a lesser extent in Asia, the Middle East and within immigrant communities elsewhere Take a look at this: wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Female_Genital_Mutilation
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 17, 2013 22:35:16 GMT -5
We run into "stuff" with the Muslims on a day-to-day basis. My husband just experienced it again. He is a home inspector, and at the beginning of the inspections he introduces himself and determine who each person in the "group" is husband/wife/buyers, in-laws of buyers, sellers, and agents etc. As he is introduced/or introduces himself, he warmly shakes hands with each person. Everyone was cool on this particular inspection until he came to the Muslim wife, who put both hands behind her and stepped back when he put his hand out to shake with her. All the other females in the group shook his hand, except she had to reject him being fully Muslim (head garb and everything). He won't do THAT again, but it was really offensive. The Muslims are constantly screaming and protesting about how offended they are about things. So, am I and my husband, offended by a LOT of what they do and stand for AND are trying to change our Western society to. Why should it be so offensive to your husband because a Muslim woman was simply following her religious beliefs by not shaking his hand? She is not suppose to touch another man.
It is true that we all should be aware of what Sharia Law means & not allow it to be inserted into our own legal system of government.
However, we need to be just as aware that fundamentalist Christian ideas also aren't allowed to be inserted into our system of government.
In fact, we really have more to fear from those fundamentalist Christians than we to fear from Muslim's Sharia Law.
In the recent thread: Street preachers at Justin Beiber concert, video we saw Christian men harassing women about what they were wearing much like you saw Muslim men harassing the women in the video in London.
The Christian group were also telling little children they were going to hell if they went into the concert and parents they were going to hell for taking their children to the concert!
Noticeable lacking in that Street preachers at Justin Beiber concert video were any women taking part in their demonstration.
I don't like either Muslim or Christian religion where it shows such bias against women.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 17, 2013 22:40:22 GMT -5
So what is THAT picture suppose to represent?!
Isn't that a little extreme for the subject under discussion?
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Post by Mary on Dec 17, 2013 22:41:42 GMT -5
FGM has been a social custom in Northern Africa for millennia. Many people associate FGM with the religion of Islam. Actually, it is a social custom that is practiced by Animists, Christians, and Muslims in those countries where FGM is common FGM: A cultural, not a religious, practice: This mutilating procedure is often associated mainly with the religion of Islam. This is incorrect. FGM is primarily a social practice, not a religious one. Female genital mutilation predated Islam. It originated in Africa and remains today a mainly African cultural practice. Some indicators of this are: It is widely practiced in countries where the predominant religion is Christianity: Examples are Ethiopia and Kenya. In multi-faith countries, it is often forced on girls whose families follow all faiths: Animism religions, Christianity, and Islam. For example, it is frequently practiced among both Muslims, Christians and Animists in Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sierra Leone, and Sudan. 1 FGM was once practiced by Ethiopian Jews (a.k.a. Beta Israel; formerly known by the derogatory term "Falashas"). 2, 3, 4.5 This practiced was apparently discontinued some time ago. A pediatrician who works in the Beta Israel community claims that they no do not practice FGM in Israel. Also, their daughters who were born in Ethiopia were not mutilated. FGM has spread to countries in or near Africa (e.g. Egypt) which are Muslim. But FGM is rare or nonexistent in many other Muslim countries. Examples are Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Turkey. Also, It is not done in the Maghreb countries of Northwest Africa. FGM is only occasionally found in Indonesia and other predominately Muslim countries in Asia. In some countries where FGM is practiced, there can be: "... a strong perception that the practice of FGM/C is required by Islam. The engagement of religious leaders in public discussion has proven to be an essential element in raising awareness of this practice, disassociating it from religious considerations and creating an enabling environment for change. The sub-regional conference on FGM/C, hosted by the Government of Djibouti in February 2005, was notable for the two-day debate among religious leaders from Djibouti and neighboring countries on the theological dimensions of FGM/C. Following an important debate, the outcome document, the Djibouti Declaration, asserts that claims that the Koran requires FGM/C are baseless and reaffirms that all types of FGM/C are contrary to the religious precepts of Islam." 7 One of the motivations for this essay is the misperception by many people that the practice is a religious one. That belief has led to unjustified religious intolerance directed against Muslims www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm1.htm
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Post by fixit on Dec 17, 2013 23:03:58 GMT -5
It doesn't matter to me whether its Islamic or not - its a disgusting practice and should not be done in western countries.
Muslims themselves have claimed FGM as pleasing in the eyes of God:
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Post by Mary on Dec 17, 2013 23:07:21 GMT -5
You can hardly call the Muslim Brotherhood a good sample of the Islamic population.
The Muslim brotherhood have said it is pleasing in God's eyes.
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Post by fixit on Dec 17, 2013 23:24:09 GMT -5
You can hardly call the Muslim Brotherhood a good sample of the Islamic population. The Muslim brotherhood have said it is pleasing in God's eyes. The Muslim Brotherhood was democratically elected by the people of Egypt. How can you doubt its a good sample of the Islamic population? I accept that this evil practise pre-dated Islam, but I'm sure it could be wiped out quite quickly if the Muslim religion outlawed it.
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Post by Mary on Dec 18, 2013 0:06:42 GMT -5
The majority of Muslims do not practice it. The Brotherhood was also thrown out by the people of Egypt. The Brotherhood has also been outlawed until recently in many Muslims countries.
Some want Assad thrown out and have the extremist radicals take over in Syria too.
Is Al Qaeda also a good representative of Islam?
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Post by fixit on Dec 18, 2013 0:32:14 GMT -5
The majority of Muslims do not practice it. The Brotherhood was also thrown out by the people of Egypt. The Brotherhood has also been outlawed until recently in many Muslims countries. Some want Assad thrown out and have the extremist radicals take over in Syria too. Is Al Qaeda also a good representative of Islam? I agree, the Islamic world has really serious issues that they need to resolve. Its a bad idea to import those issues into western countries.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 18, 2013 1:29:38 GMT -5
We run into "stuff" with the Muslims on a day-to-day basis. My husband just experienced it again. He is a home inspector, and at the beginning of the inspections he introduces himself and determine who each person in the "group" is husband/wife/buyers, in-laws of buyers, sellers, and agents etc. As he is introduced/or introduces himself, he warmly shakes hands with each person. Everyone was cool on this particular inspection until he came to the Muslim wife, who put both hands behind her and stepped back when he put his hand out to shake with her. All the other females in the group shook his hand, except she had to reject him being fully Muslim (head garb and everything). He won't do THAT again, but it was really offensive. The Muslims are constantly screaming and protesting about how offended they are about things. So, am I and my husband, offended by a LOT of what they do and stand for AND are trying to change our Western society to. The tradition in Western polite society is that a man does NOT offer his hand in handshake to a woman before she offers hers.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 18, 2013 1:45:08 GMT -5
When a Muslim claims that the Hadiths are sacred writing to Muslims -- ignore it as applying to all Muslims. Hsdiths are only sacred to the sects of Muslims that believe in them. The Hadiths of one sect are NOT the same as the hadiths for another sect. The majority of Muslims do not believe in the majority of Hadiths ever written. The only writing considered sacred and common to all Muslims is the Qur'an.
Sharia law, as well, is NOT uniform among all the people who claim to practice it. And when people claim that Sharia law is based on "scriptures", it does not necessarily mean it is based on the Qur'an. Much of the violence recommended in Sharia law did indeed come from scripture -- the Old Testament to be specific. e.g. the practice of stoning.
The news media seems to treat Muslims and Christians alike -- they find the most ignorant loud mouths to write stories about, but don't mention the religion when they write about Christians.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 3:11:41 GMT -5
The inconvenient truth about Islam is that we all come from the same heritage.......
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Post by rational on Dec 18, 2013 3:14:29 GMT -5
Female Genital mutilation is not a religious practice. It is a cultural one. Would it be OK if it were a religious practice? Is circumcision ever OK? Male of female? Religious or cultural? Should mutilation be part of raising any child?
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Post by fixit on Dec 18, 2013 5:04:49 GMT -5
Some want Assad thrown out and have the extremist radicals take over in Syria too. Assad started the war by firing on peaceful protesters. You seem to be saying that Islamic majority nations need a strong dictator to keep order. It seems rather patronising, but you might be right. I used to think that democracy and our western freedoms should be able to work everywhere, but that might have been naive of me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 6:01:50 GMT -5
Some want Assad thrown out and have the extremist radicals take over in Syria too. Assad started the war by firing on peaceful protesters. You seem to be saying that Islamic majority nations need a strong dictator to keep order. It seems rather patronising, but you might be right. I used to think that democracy and our western freedoms should be able to work everywhere, but that might have been naive of me.It was naive of you, but don't take it personally. Most of us have been on that journey and learned from it. Whatever one thinks about Walid Shoebat, what he says about Islam is never more than a hair's breadth from the truth. He was a Moslem who converted to Christianity and knows the Moslem mindset inside out. Also he is an interesting and entertaining speaker and makes 90 minute youtube videos very tolerable even to myself who normally switches off after a 5 minute max.
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Post by Sylvestra on Dec 18, 2013 11:01:31 GMT -5
We run into "stuff" with the Muslims on a day-to-day basis. My husband just experienced it again. He is a home inspector, and at the beginning of the inspections he introduces himself and determine who each person in the "group" is husband/wife/buyers, in-laws of buyers, sellers, and agents etc. As he is introduced/or introduces himself, he warmly shakes hands with each person. Everyone was cool on this particular inspection until he came to the Muslim wife, who put both hands behind her and stepped back when he put his hand out to shake with her. All the other females in the group shook his hand, except she had to reject him being fully Muslim (head garb and everything). He won't do THAT again, but it was really offensive. The Muslims are constantly screaming and protesting about how offended they are about things. So, am I and my husband, offended by a LOT of what they do and stand for AND are trying to change our Western society to. The tradition in Western polite society is that a man does NOT offer his hand in handshake to a woman before she offers hers. According to Amy Etiquette of what year? 1902? Women want to be equal now, you know! In the situation described, the female Realtor hugged my husband when he walked up. Believe me, it was offensive to everyone except the Muslims present.
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Post by Sylvestra on Dec 18, 2013 11:05:21 GMT -5
Some want Assad thrown out and have the extremist radicals take over in Syria too. Assad started the war by firing on peaceful protesters. You seem to be saying that Islamic majority nations need a strong dictator to keep order. It seems rather patronising, but you might be right. I used to think that democracy and our western freedoms should be able to work everywhere, but that might have been naive of me. I don't believe democracy should be advocated for other nations as the USA does for the Middle East, and I believe "nation building" is wrong for the USA to push upon nations around the world.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 18, 2013 11:37:49 GMT -5
The tradition in Western polite society is that a man does NOT offer his hand in handshake to a woman before she offers hers. According to Amy Etiquette of what year? 1902? Women want to be equal now, you know! In the situation described, the female Realtor hugged my husband when he walked up. Believe me, it was offensive to everyone except the Muslims present. So --- it was their house. Anyway, they were offensive even before he tried to shake his hand -- they are Muslims, after all! If they were good red neck Americans they might have shot you for looking at them the wrong way.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 18, 2013 11:42:27 GMT -5
Some want Assad thrown out and have the extremist radicals take over in Syria too. Assad started the war by firing on peaceful protesters. You seem to be saying that Islamic majority nations need a strong dictator to keep order. It seems rather patronising, but you might be right. I used to think that democracy and our western freedoms should be able to work everywhere, but that might have been naive of me. You seem not to understand enough about Syria to understand what she meant by her comment. It may also explain why you think only WE can make democracy work.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 18, 2013 11:56:52 GMT -5
We run into "stuff" with the Muslims on a day-to-day basis. My husband just experienced it again. He is a home inspector, and at the beginning of the inspections he introduces himself and determine who each person in the "group" is husband/wife/buyers, in-laws of buyers, sellers, and agents etc. As he is introduced/or introduces himself, he warmly shakes hands with each person. Everyone was cool on this particular inspection until he came to the Muslim wife, who put both hands behind her and stepped back when he put his hand out to shake with her. All the other females in the group shook his hand, except she had to reject him being fully Muslim (head garb and everything). He won't do THAT again, but it was really offensive. The Muslims are constantly screaming and protesting about how offended they are about things. So, am I and my husband, offended by a LOT of what they do and stand for AND are trying to change our Western society to. Some Muslim men are very possessive and/or jealous of anything or anyone they believe is their's. The woman probably had been directed by her husband that she was not to be friendly to any other man or she would suffer the consequences. Although I was told that the Muslim would often use their wives to become friendly with future coverts, esp. of the female category....I had this happen to me, and I have to say that this Muslim couple were very nice and very friendly....they are Egyptian Muslim.....they reside in this area, he's a manager of a pancake house.....or he was last I knew of them. When I went to the Mayo Clinic when they first discovered dead fibers within my optic nerve and we were looking for a diagnosis and a treatment plan...while we were sitting there, there was a small group of Muslim men and one Muslim lady....it was apparent that 3 of those men were servants or bodyguards for the Muslim husband and wife. The wife was put into an area that had no persons in it and 2 of the 4 men sat on each side of her....she had colored glasses on. which made me suspect she was the patient....but first off the husband and 1 Muslim went in to speak to the doctor so they doctor could take her history and then when it came time for them to start the testing the husband went out and motioned to the guards to bring her to him...then all 5 of them went back to the doctor's area to test here.....this husband was very possessive and likely was a very rich man....this wife was a very beautiful lady and a very obedient wife!
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Post by Mary on Dec 18, 2013 12:28:52 GMT -5
Female Genital mutilation is not a religious practice. It is a cultural one. Would it be OK if it were a religious practice? Is circumcision ever OK? Male of female? Religious or cultural? Should mutilation be part of raising any child? It is not ok religious or otherwise. fixit was saying it was a Muslim practice I was responding by saying it was actually practiced by Christians too and that it was a cultural rather than religious practice. I would have preferred a response regarding what you believe rather than a question. You ask what I believe rather than your belief on the matter. I am still left not knowing what you believe. A statement saying that it is not ok cultural or religious, male or female and that mutilation should not be part of raising any child or the opposite depending on what you believe. Even western culture had circumcision of males until x number of years ago. It was supposed to be for reasons of cleanliness. Now I prefer the look too , but then I am female. Maybe a man sees it differently.
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Post by Mary on Dec 18, 2013 12:42:01 GMT -5
I used to think that it was wrong how a Muslim man often walked behind his wife and children. Anyway after having it explained that the man walked behind the woman and children to protect them from anything coming up behind I understood why they do it. What may seem as wrong to us often makes sense. We see the world through our own world view and culture so I say lets be open until we know the reasons behind it.
A Muslim man may seem controlling in public but in the home the woman often rules the house. Muslim men also often show great respect for their mother's more than in western culture and she is more honoured than his wife.
I do get offended when I see a Muslim woman completely covered and feel like saying to her, do you think you are so beautiful that men want you or to the man are you so insecure that you are afraid of some man looking at your wife. Or if you didn't look at women yourself then maybe you wouldn't be so insecure where your own wife is concerned but then that is my world view, maybe they have a completely different reason. I have heard Muslim men say that sometimes a woman hides behind a veil because she sleeps around and doesn't want to be recognised in public. People see it differently. I see it as insecurity of the male. I read in the news a year or two ago. A man lifted the veil to kiss his bride only to find he had married a male - seems unlikely but being in the news we are supposed to believe it as it was reported as a news item.
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Post by Mary on Dec 18, 2013 13:07:33 GMT -5
Some want Assad thrown out and have the extremist radicals take over in Syria too. Assad started the war by firing on peaceful protesters. You seem to be saying that Islamic majority nations need a strong dictator to keep order. It seems rather patronising, but you might be right. I used to think that democracy and our western freedoms should be able to work everywhere, but that might have been naive of me. It is far deeper than firing on a few peaceful protestors. I am not saying they need a strong dictator. I am saying Assad is the lesser of 2 evils. Radical Islam and the Sunnis are behind wanting Assad out and want to take over - Assad is a alawite, he is not sunni. His government is considered secular and with Assad there is freedom of religion. Christians largely support him, they certainly do not want the radicals getting in. Christians make up 10% of the population but you won't get freedom of religion when the radicals take over. Maybe they do need a dictator to keep al-Qaida and the Muslim brotherhood out. Better if the people could work together but that is in an ideal and perfect world. Jordan may be an example but people either hate or love the King and their history is different. The first king negotiated the country from the British and they are highly respected for that. The people originally made his ancestors king. Disclaimer: Just my opinion.
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Post by fixit on Dec 18, 2013 14:16:18 GMT -5
Assad started the war by firing on peaceful protesters. You seem to be saying that Islamic majority nations need a strong dictator to keep order. It seems rather patronising, but you might be right. I used to think that democracy and our western freedoms should be able to work everywhere, but that might have been naive of me. It is far deeper than firing on a few peaceful protestors. I am not saying they need a strong dictator. I am saying Assad is the lesser of 2 evils. Radical Islam and the Sunnis are behind wanting Assad out and want to take over - Assad is a alawite, he is not sunni. His government is considered secular and with Assad there is freedom of religion. Christians largely support him, they certainly do not want the radicals getting in. Christians make up 10% of the population but you won't get freedom of religion when the radicals take over. Maybe they do need a dictator to keep al-Qaida and the Muslim brotherhood out. Better if the people could work together but that is in an ideal and perfect world. Jordan may be an example but people either hate or love the King and their history is different. The first king negotiated the country from the British and they are highly respected for that. The people originally made his ancestors king. Disclaimer: Just my opinion. You seem to be saying that democracy won't work in Islamic nations. You might be right. When they have free elections and elect people who oppose freedom they can be worse off than if they have a strong unelected dictator. Is Islam incompatible with our western values?
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