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Post by rational on Dec 13, 2013 15:53:45 GMT -5
What I am getting at is that God is responsible for everyone's death one way or another, no matter how we die. What I am getting at is that is your belief and not a belief that is universally supported. As I said, it is yours and if it answers your questions - stick with it.According to your belief, yes, although the creation of death seems to be a bit like the creation of 'dry'.Right this moment - does god know if you are going to heaven or hell? Can you change that outcome?Right - so it is sealed.This does not really enter into the argument. God sees where you are going to end up. What you see doesn't matter not will the outcome be different because of anything you do.Alright. I find it difficult to argue with a person's belief because it is, after all, theirs. It would be like you arguing that 'blue' was not my favorite color.OKSo right now do I have free will? Can I change the ending?Or she. And if you look around there are almost as many definitions for god as there are people that created them.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 13, 2013 16:07:08 GMT -5
What I am getting at is that God is responsible for everyone's death one way or another, no matter how we die. God created life and death. Our destiny is not sealed in the way you may be meaning. God knows the end, yes. There is nothing hid from His eyes. He has seen it. He knows everything. We seal our own destiny. God sees the future we do not. He does not choose our future we do. God has seen the choices we will make. The same way as God knows when the end of the world will be. He doesn't control it, we do but God has already seen it, because he is all knowing and all seeing, as they say. Believe it or not, God already knows your end. He did not create your end, you do but he knows the choices you will make before you make them. After all He is God. The future is hidden from our eyes, but it is not hidden from God's eyes. Then, according to your premises, there really is no such thing as FREE WILL!
You really are reaching for that rationalization to get it to suit what one wants to believe by saying a "god" knows our "choices" and therefore our destiny but doesn't control it!
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Post by Mary on Dec 13, 2013 16:14:06 GMT -5
That is where we are different, Rational. My favourite colour is purple. I could argue that purple is the best color and still you would not believe me.( Blue is my second favourite colour). I could also say favourite colour is spelt just like that and you might say no it is spelt favorite color. See we are all different. And you know what. That is what I love about hu - mans or is it hu- women - we all have a free choice to choose our end. Seems as if you are looking at it from a human perspective. God has already seen our end and let us choose it. Again, he has seen the choices we will make. He sees the beginning from the end, we see the end from the beginning - or it the other way round.
It is all free will. Because someone can see the future does not mean we have not chosen our future. Because man went to the moon in 19??? does not mean he did not have a free will to get there and choose the time to get there. God knew when it would happen but he did not make it happen.
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Post by Gene on Dec 13, 2013 16:28:43 GMT -5
What I am getting at is that God is responsible for everyone's death one way or another, no matter how we die. God created life and death. Our destiny is not sealed in the way you may be meaning. God knows the end, yes. There is nothing hid from His eyes. He has seen it. He knows everything. We seal our own destiny. God sees the future we do not. He does not choose our future we do. God has seen the choices we will make. The same way as God knows when the end of the world will be. He doesn't control it, we do but God has already seen it, because he is all knowing and all seeing, as they say. Believe it or not, God already knows your end. He did not create your end, you do but he knows the choices you will make before you make them. After all He is God. The future is hidden from our eyes, but it is not hidden from God's eyes. Interesting. So let's recap with a real-life situation: 1.) God is responsible for the deaths of the children at Sandy Hook Elementary School. 2.) Those children and teachers who were shot to death sealed their own destiny. 3.) God knew in advance that those children and teachers would be shot to death. And, although you didn't mention this, while God knew it was going to happen, He chose to do nothing about it. Charming. G
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Post by Mary on Dec 13, 2013 16:42:26 GMT -5
So let's recap with a real-life situation:
1.) God is responsible for the deaths of the children at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
No God is not responsible. The person who did it was responsible. God 'created' (for want of a better word) death. He didn't cause the death.
2.) Those children and teachers who were shot to death sealed their own destiny.
No, but God knew it would happen. He saw the end before it happened.
3.) God knew in advance that those children and teachers would be shot to death.
Yes.
And, although you didn't mention this, while God knew it was going to happen, He chose to do nothing about it.
Death to God is not the end. He created us mortal being on this earth. Life is not meant to go on forever. Suffering is part of life. God did do something about it. He sent Jesus to die on the Cross so that you and I could have eternal life. A place without suffering. Life and suffering are but a stage. Read the book on Death and Dying by Elizabeth Kubler Ross. I am reading it and it gives a whole new meaning of death.
Charming G.
If you say so. M
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Post by rational on Dec 13, 2013 16:43:07 GMT -5
That is where we are different, Rational. My faviourate colour is purple. I could argue that purple is the best color and still you would not believe me.(Blue is my second faviourate colour). I could also say faviourate colour is spelt just like that and you might say no it is spelt faviorite color. See we are all different. And you know what. That is what I love about hu - mans or is it hu- women - we all have a free choice to choose our end. Seems as if you are looking at it from our human mind. Wowww - did that fly far from the mark! My point was that arguing about a belief is pointless because beliefs are not based on anything that can be proved. They have no logical not material basis. You really can't claim that I don't like blue because you have no idea why I like the color blue. Perhaps it is because I believe it makes me part of the sky. And then you could argue that the sky is not actually blue and I could say that the other reason I like blue is because ... well it could go on and on (as this has) but at the end of the day there is no way for you to prove why I like the color blue. Just as there is no way I can disprove any of the reasons why you believe in god. (maybe it's because I like 439 - a nice smooth prime number!)However, from a logical point of view I can point out that believing that there is a omnipotent omniscient being that you believe in contradicts the idea of free will. This is not a new idea. It has been discussed and argued for over two millennia so you are in good company. Your arguments are familiar but they really smack of predestination. The moment you are born you are predestined to heaven or hell. You should keep this as your mantra. If someone can see the future and knows how it turns out you cannot change the future.
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Post by Mary on Dec 13, 2013 16:55:36 GMT -5
Hey Rational, I changed the spelling of the word favourite and you posted it before I changed it.
I am glad I am in good company. It could get lonely out there without some company.
Predestination to me is that God chooses us and we had no choice in the matter. I don't believe that. I believe we choose God. If you feel you cannot change your future, then you will see it like that. Like I said we all have the free will to choose our own future. God has seen all that you have done. He has seen you change it. God has seen the movie of your life. Nope, I don't believe in predestination, I believe in an all-seeing, all-knowing God.
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Post by rational on Dec 13, 2013 17:13:42 GMT -5
Ahh Mary, Mary, Mary. You need to inform people when you redefine common words in the middle of a discussion! Predestination in its broadest conception is the doctrine that because God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and completely sovereign, he from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass. It is even supported in Ephesians 1:11: In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will." I forgot to ask for a definition of the terms! Hey Rational, I changed the spelling of the word favourite and you posted it before I changed it. I am glad I am in good company. It could get lonely out there without some company. Predestination to me is that God chooses us and we had no choice in the matter. I don't believe that. I believe we choose God. If you feel you cannot change your future, then you will see it like that. Like I said we all have the free will to choose our own future. God has seen all that you have done. He has seen you change it. God has seen the movie of your life. Nope, I don't believe in predestination, I believe in an all-seeing, all-knowing God.
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Post by Gene on Dec 13, 2013 19:37:45 GMT -5
So let's recap with a real-life situation:
1.) God is responsible for the deaths of the children at Sandy Hook Elementary School.No God is not responsible. The person who did it was responsible. God 'created' (for want of a better word) death. He didn't cause the death. 2.) Those children and teachers who were shot to death sealed their own destiny.No, but God knew it would happen. He saw the end before it happened. 3.) God knew in advance that those children and teachers would be shot to death.Yes. And, although you didn't mention this, while God knew it was going to happen, He chose to do nothing about it.Death to God is not the end. He created us mortal being on this earth. Life is not meant to go on forever. Suffering is part of life. God did do something about it. He sent Jesus to die on the Cross so that you and I could have eternal life. A place without suffering. Life and suffering are but a stage. Read the book on Death and Dying by Elizabeth Kubler Ross. I am reading it and it gives a whole new meaning of death. Charming G.If you say so. M I see. So you're changing your position from before? Where you wrote: 1) "What I am getting at is that God is responsible for everyone's death one way or another" 2) "We seal our own destiny." Are you retracting those statements?
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 13, 2013 20:50:44 GMT -5
So let's recap with a real-life situation:
1.) God is responsible for the deaths of the children at Sandy Hook Elementary School.No God is not responsible. The person who did it was responsible. God 'created' (for want of a better word) death. He didn't cause the death. 2.) Those children and teachers who were shot to death sealed their own destiny.No, but God knew it would happen. He saw the end before it happened. 3.) God knew in advance that those children and teachers would be shot to death.Yes. And, although you didn't mention this, while God knew it was going to happen, He chose to do nothing about it.Death to God is not the end. He created us mortal being on this earth. Life is not meant to go on forever. Suffering is part of life. God did do something about it. He sent Jesus to die on the Cross so that you and I could have eternal life. A place without suffering. Life and suffering are but a stage. Read the book on Death and Dying by Elizabeth Kubler Ross. I am reading it and it gives a whole new meaning of death. Charming G.If you say so. So, Mary, are you saying that those children at Sandy Hook Elementary School had free will to choose to be there?
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 13, 2013 20:54:48 GMT -5
What I am getting at is that God is responsible for everyone's death one way or another, no matter how we die. God created life and death. Our destiny is not sealed in the way you may be meaning. God knows the end, yes. There is nothing hid from His eyes. He has seen it. He knows everything. We seal our own destiny. God sees the future we do not. He does not choose our future we do. God has seen the choices we will make. The same way as God knows when the end of the world will be. He doesn't control it, we do but God has already seen it, because he is all knowing and all seeing, as they say. Believe it or not, God already knows your end. He did not create your end, you do but he knows the choices you will make before you make them. After all He is God. The future is hidden from our eyes, but it is not hidden from God's eyes. Interesting. So let's recap with a real-life situation: 1.) God is responsible for the deaths of the children at Sandy Hook Elementary School. 2.) Those children and teachers who were shot to death sealed their own destiny. 3.) God knew in advance that those children and teachers would be shot to death. And, although you didn't mention this, while God knew it was going to happen, He chose to do nothing about it. Charming. G And the other side of the coin is that children born of rape victims were intended by God. Vote Tea Party!!!!
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Post by Lee on Dec 13, 2013 23:13:14 GMT -5
This is the God the Bible relates to us. He doesn't favor people like our fathers or mothers or masters might. He gives us the opportunity to view our life of bearing risk as a privilege. By bearing risk we can be grateful in spite of our circumstances. In spite of our circumstances we can be sure that our appreciation for life is pure and not merely a response to favor and thus we can be confident we are worthy of life! AMAZING- ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!
How, when someone like you wants to believe something, -no matter how terrible, -they will rationalize it as something good!While what I wrote was sort of fatalistic its an improvement over the atheist's idea that creation is a "random act of nothing in particular." Thus while atheist's have no basis to believe mankind's lot will continue to improve (or deteriorate, hard to tell really), theist's can be hopeful that the present sufferings and injustices will be contained, reversed, or eventually beheld from an authoritative and satisfying perspective, having confidence that God is good.
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Post by Lee on Dec 13, 2013 23:22:58 GMT -5
Interesting. So let's recap with a real-life situation: 1.) God is responsible for the deaths of the children at Sandy Hook Elementary School. 2.) Those children and teachers who were shot to death sealed their own destiny. 3.) God knew in advance that those children and teachers would be shot to death. And, although you didn't mention this, while God knew it was going to happen, He chose to do nothing about it. Charming. G And the other side of the coin is that children born of rape victims were intended by God. Vote Tea Party!!!! A common problem of atheists is that without any proof whatsoever they assume we are the dimensionally equivalent of God. Thus they feel justified when assailing the creator for creating never mind the fact they claim not to believe in one, supposing it impossible for the creator to create a "space" for a creation to live in.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 13, 2013 23:25:10 GMT -5
And the other side of the coin is that children born of rape victims were intended by God. Vote Tea Party!!!! A common problem of atheists is that without any proof whatsoever they assume we are the dimensionally equivalent of God. Thus they fill justified when assailing the creator for creating never mind the fact they don't believe in one, supposing it impossible for the creator to create a "space" for a creation to live in. Where did you learn so much about atheism?
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Post by Lee on Dec 13, 2013 23:31:14 GMT -5
From my falling out with 2x2ism while having little to no perspective then of what I was dealing with.
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Post by snow on Dec 14, 2013 0:19:52 GMT -5
God knows the choices we will make. He gave us a free will. He doesn't choose them for us, we do. But he knows everything so he know those who are His. By that I mean he already knows the end we will choose. So why does he waste his time letting us slog away down here if he already knows our life choices. Well, this is our privilege to live this life. It makes me think of a person building a house. We know the finished article, but we need to start from scratch and build it. No house if no building. No life, no choices, no beginning and no end. Dmm, how is God any less responsible for Job's children dying than he is me and you? You could say God kills all of us. After all we are born to die. Who is responsible for your death when you die? How is that any different from Job's children dying? God is the sole cause of death. If you believe in God anyway.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 14, 2013 0:23:05 GMT -5
AMAZING- ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!
How, when someone like you wants to believe something, -no matter how terrible, -they will rationalize it as something good! While what I wrote was sort of fatalistic its an improvement over the atheist's idea that creation is a "random act of nothing in particular." Thus while atheist's have no basis to believe mankind's lot will continue to improve (or deteriorate, hard to tell really), theist's can be hopeful that the present sufferings and injustices will be contained, reversed, or eventually beheld from an authoritative and satisfying perspective, having confidence that God is good. AGAIN-ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!
It is ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!
Where do you get all those ideas about atheists which aren't true!
So, isn't that the reason for religion, that theist's believe that, "Daddy will take care of all their problems, that they will be recompensed for all their sufferings here on earth (even if it will only happen after they die)?
(Oh, and don't forget they also believe that Daddy will fulfill HIS promise of justice by having their tormentors burn in hell and they can watch the show!)
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Post by Mary on Dec 14, 2013 0:25:40 GMT -5
Gene, God is responsible for our death because he created us to die. He did not create us to live forever on this earth.
dmm, the people were not responsible for the shooting, the person who shot them was.
People make their own choice to go to hell. Again, people have a free will to choose while in this life where they want to go when they die. Like the Bible says, you are without excuse.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 14, 2013 0:26:57 GMT -5
From my falling out with 2x2ism while having little to no perspective then of what I was dealing with. You didn't really answer the question, Lee.You still haven't any idea of what constitutes atheism.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 14, 2013 0:39:12 GMT -5
Gene, God is responsible for our death because he created us to die. He did not create us to live forever on this earth. dmm, the people were not responsible for the shooting, the person who shot them was. People make their own choice to go to hell. Again, people have a free will to choose while in this life where they want to go when they die. Like the Bible says, you are without excuse. Gene, God is responsible for our death because he created us to die. He did not create us to live forever on this earth. dmm, the people were not responsible for the shooting, the person who shot them was. I wasn't talking about responsibility for the shooting. Maybe I didn't make it plain.
You say people have "free will to choose." I'm saying, did those children & teachers who were shot have "free will to choose." as to where they were at the time of the shooting?
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Post by Mary on Dec 14, 2013 0:51:46 GMT -5
What do you think dmm? Do people have a free will?
I think most would say most people do not have a choice of how and when they die. There are exceptions such as suicide. Death is inevitable. Like I said, we do not live forever. We are mortal beings.
Of course, we have a free will to be where we want to be. Had we known the dangers we would have chosen not to be there, because we have a free will to choose where we want to go unless we are kidnapped or taken prisoner by someone.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 14, 2013 1:45:07 GMT -5
Gene, God is responsible for our death because he created us to die. He did not create us to live forever on this earth. I thought humans weren't supposed to die, according to god's original plan. They were told not to eat the fruit of that tree, but they did. Was God just tempting them so it could be blamed on Eve instead of him? I see. God doesn't control persons -- he only controls people.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 14, 2013 2:12:05 GMT -5
What do you think dmm? Do people have a free will? I think most would say most people do not have a choice of how and when they die. There are exceptions such as suicide. Death is inevitable. Like I said, we do not live forever. We are mortal beings. Of course, we have a free will to be where we want to be. Had we known the dangers we would have chosen not to be there, because we have a free will to choose where we want to go unless we are kidnapped or taken prisoner by someone. You are not understanding at all what I said. I was only quoting your own words back to you,, and you aren't understanding.
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Post by rational on Dec 15, 2013 9:26:42 GMT -5
While what I wrote was sort of fatalistic its an improvement over the atheist's idea that creation is a "random act of nothing in particular." Thus while atheist's have no basis to believe mankind's lot will continue to improve (or deteriorate, hard to tell really), theist's can be hopeful that the present sufferings and injustices will be contained, reversed, or eventually beheld from an authoritative and satisfying perspective, having confidence that God is good. I think that most atheists would say that man will continue to change and not evaluate the outcome of the change since the change and the outcome of the change are unknowns. Sounds like theists simply hope for the best based on their untestable and unsupported beliefs.
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Post by Lee on Dec 15, 2013 9:51:35 GMT -5
While what I wrote was sort of fatalistic its an improvement over the atheist's idea that creation is a "random act of nothing in particular." Thus while atheist's have no basis to believe mankind's lot will continue to improve (or deteriorate, hard to tell really), theist's can be hopeful that the present sufferings and injustices will be contained, reversed, or eventually beheld from an authoritative and satisfying perspective, having confidence that God is good. I think that most atheists would say that man will continue to change and not evaluate the outcome of the change since the change and the outcome of the change are unknowns. Sounds like theists simply hope for the best based on their untestable and unsupported beliefs. The point is atheists have no basis to hope, theists do.
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Post by Lee on Dec 15, 2013 10:11:15 GMT -5
While what I wrote was sort of fatalistic its an improvement over the atheist's idea that creation is a "random act of nothing in particular." Thus while atheist's have no basis to believe mankind's lot will continue to improve (or deteriorate, hard to tell really), theist's can be hopeful that the present sufferings and injustices will be contained, reversed, or eventually beheld from an authoritative and satisfying perspective, having confidence that God is good. AGAIN-ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!
It is ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!
Where do you get all those ideas about atheists which aren't true! It is true that atheists have no basis to hope. So, isn't that the reason for religion, that theist's believe that, " Daddy will take care of all their problems, that they will be recompensed for all their sufferings here on earth (even if it will only happen after they die)? Many theists have made lemonade out lemons. How are you doing on that number? (Oh, and don't forget they also believe that Daddy will fulfill HIS promise of justice by having their tormentors burn in hell and they can watch the show!) It is healthy to hope for a swift and violent end to persons who are incorrigibly dedicated to evil. It is also healthy to desire repentance, chastity and hope for people generally. On the other hand Christians reproach their Lord when they project their guilt onto others, or assume the unsaved (un-catechized) are not inherently objects of God's grace, or narrowly conceive eternal life to mean a static state of bliss or suffering for a static list of static souls.
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Post by rational on Dec 15, 2013 10:28:01 GMT -5
I think that most atheists would say that man will continue to change and not evaluate the outcome of the change since the change and the outcome of the change are unknowns. Sounds like theists simply hope for the best based on their untestable and unsupported beliefs. The point is atheists have no basis to hope, theists do. Of course atheists have hope. I hope when I drive to get fuel in my car that I have not over estimated how far I can drive with the warning light on. But as the case with hope - it doesn't do any good - either I have enough fuel or I don't. Hoping doesn't change what will happen.
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Post by Lee on Dec 15, 2013 10:37:24 GMT -5
The point is atheists have no basis to hope, theists do. Of course atheists have hope. I hope when I drive to get fuel in my car that I have not over estimated how far I can drive with the warning light on. But as the case with hope - it doesn't do any good - either I have enough fuel or I don't. Hoping doesn't change what will happen. Sure it does. It might impel you towards driving on. Of course the hope we were talking about was a cosmic one, a hope requiring a transcendent cause and agency.
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