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Post by snow on Dec 10, 2013 11:32:12 GMT -5
Not according to your quote. God fearers could never have been Pagans -- that simple. why not? doesn't converting too happen in this case? maybe you should have said [God fearers could never be Pagans at the same time] Why? Pagans are also God fearers.
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Post by snow on Dec 10, 2013 11:34:12 GMT -5
from the site Jesus equipped his followers with swords in anticipation of trouble. (Lk 22:36-38) and at least one of Jesus' supporters scuffled with the Temple police to aid in resisting Jesus' arrest. (Mk 14:47)
no where in the Bible does it show that this is true therefore for me the site is suspect Sure, Jesus made sure they had swords and when Jesus was taken Peter cut off the ear of one of them. I would say that could be a 'scuffle'.
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Post by snow on Dec 10, 2013 11:35:05 GMT -5
It seems much of the discussion has been about who killed Jesus and for what reason(s). May I suggest God did it. The Romans and Jews were his tools, to accomplish what he had in mind to begin with. forgive them because they know not what they do. God didn't literally do it but had man do it to fulfill scripture What's the difference if God is all powerful and knowing. Are we puppets that God uses to kill when he needs someone to die? How is God any different then any Mafia boss then that orders a killing but doesn't actually get blood on their own hands?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2013 13:43:55 GMT -5
If you are talking about the difference between Mother Nature and the Christian God then that can be summed up easily. Mother Nature is the entity which makes the rain fall, creates life, makes the grass grow and is behind the beauty and splendour of the natural world. The Christian God is the entity who loves and cares for you, who is all seeing, all knowing and all powerful, who will save your soul if you believe in Him and follow Him and who will send you to everlasting hell if you don’t, who can cure all your ailments if you have sufficient faith in Him and who takes an peculiar interest in what you get up to in the bedroom. No, when preached faithfully Christianity says salvation originates from the imputed righteousness of JC. At least that’s what those who believe in the Christian God will claim … but of course there is no evidence to support any of these claims whatsoever. Matt10 Yes and no. No, people do not initiate salvation any more than they initiate their own lives. Yes, people do facilitate righteousness through prayer (petition and thought) and action. No? Yes and No? I have no idea which bits you are agreeing with or disagreeing with. In fact I have absolutely no idea what points you are attempting to make here. Matt10
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 10, 2013 14:01:32 GMT -5
No, when preached faithfully Christianity says salvation originates from the imputed righteousness of JC. Yes and no. No, people do not initiate salvation any more than they initiate their own lives. Yes, people do facilitate righteousness through prayer (petition and thought) and action. No? Yes and No? I have no idea which bits you are agreeing with or disagreeing with. In fact I have absolutely no idea what points you are attempting to make here.Matt10 Join the club, Matt10, - a lot of us don't have any idea what Lee is talking about at times!
I'm not sure even Lee himself always knows what he is talking about!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2013 16:11:59 GMT -5
from the site Jesus equipped his followers with swords in anticipation of trouble. (Lk 22:36-38) and at least one of Jesus' supporters scuffled with the Temple police to aid in resisting Jesus' arrest. (Mk 14:47)
no where in the Bible does it show that this is true therefore for me the site is suspect Sure, Jesus made sure they had swords and when Jesus was taken Peter cut off the ear of one of them. I would say that could be a 'scuffle'. when and where did Jesus make sure they had swords? Jesus's answer to Peters use of the sword Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
i would say that Jesus was not to happy with Peters use of the sword and rebuked Peter so
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2013 16:13:43 GMT -5
God didn't literally do it but had man do it to fulfill scripture What's the difference if God is all powerful and knowing. Are we puppets that God uses to kill when he needs someone to die? How is God any different then any Mafia boss then that orders a killing but doesn't actually get blood on their own hands? you could actually ask Him for your answers, i know a different God
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 10, 2013 18:24:18 GMT -5
Maybe maybe - another Christian maybe. You have no indication at all that any pagan centurions converted -- just a maybe. Maybe Jesus scared rats out of Gethsemane too.
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Post by snow on Dec 10, 2013 18:54:51 GMT -5
What's the difference if God is all powerful and knowing. Are we puppets that God uses to kill when he needs someone to die? How is God any different then any Mafia boss then that orders a killing but doesn't actually get blood on their own hands? you could actually ask Him for your answers, i know a different God Then the god you know is not the god of the bible.
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Post by snow on Dec 10, 2013 19:02:04 GMT -5
Sure, Jesus made sure they had swords and when Jesus was taken Peter cut off the ear of one of them. I would say that could be a 'scuffle'. when and where did Jesus make sure they had swords? Jesus's answer to Peters use of the sword Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
i would say that Jesus was not to happy with Peters use of the sword and rebuked Peter so Jesus may have been upset with Peter for cutting off the guards ear, but that isn't what you asked me. You asked me where it is written that there was a scuffle and I showed you where there was a scuffle. Your next question was about where Jesus told them to buy a sword. Here is the verse. Now these were the two things that you said made you think that article was suspect because you didn't think Jesus asked them to buy a sword and you didn't think there was a scuffle. I've shown you that both are there if you looked for them. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+22:36 36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
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Post by Lee on Dec 10, 2013 21:35:08 GMT -5
No, when preached faithfully Christianity says salvation originates from the imputed righteousness of JC. Yes and no. No, people do not initiate salvation any more than they initiate their own lives. Yes, people do facilitate righteousness through prayer (petition and thought) and action. No? Yes and No? I have no idea which bits you are agreeing with or disagreeing with. In fact I have absolutely no idea what points you are attempting to make here. Matt10 I'm saying God isn't a conditional lover but the creator.
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Post by Lee on Dec 10, 2013 21:39:34 GMT -5
God didn't literally do it but had man do it to fulfill scripture What's the difference if God is all powerful and knowing. Are we puppets that God uses to kill when he needs someone to die? How is God any different then any Mafia boss then that orders a killing but doesn't actually get blood on their own hands? God creates possibilities, Mafia bosses and certain Canadian workers exploit them for sensual gratification.
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Post by Lee on Dec 10, 2013 21:51:49 GMT -5
Lee wrote: "That's like saying God is Satan. Clearly Christ was killed because he threatened the status quo, and I do agree that this was God's will. One will not begin to grasp the mystery of JC apart from a Trinitarian theology that anticipates shared prerogatives and shared responsibilities with God for every human being." Well, at least in part He is Satan. God created Satan of himself, so Satan is part of God. So God and Satan are one and the same with the trinity. Indeed. In order to create a moral freewill it would first be necessary to instantiate a moral being, one whose very nature would be polarized be twist the tensions of right and wrong. For me the main mystery of JC is that Christians declare Jesus guilty of their sins, and tolerate, even celebrate, God crucifying him for it... by whatever means. You'd think Christians would have a problem with such intentional false accusation. Why? If you're going to create anything you will see that it is attended by necessary drama. But then again, since He created us too, He actually IS guilty of our sins. I agree with that. God is responsible for our sins. Interestingly we have the freedom to discover this too and what's more, the freedom to repent. God is AWESOME!!!
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Post by Lee on Dec 10, 2013 22:05:39 GMT -5
Clearly Christ was killed because he threatened the status quo, and I do agree that this was God's will. This is not surprising. Isn't this required by your belief? Is there anything that happens that is not god's will? no
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Post by rational on Dec 10, 2013 22:23:06 GMT -5
This is not surprising. Isn't this required by your belief? Is there anything that happens that is not god's will? no Children molested, tortured, and killed - god's will. Hard to imagine that people would worship an entity who would approve/condone such behavior.
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Post by Lee on Dec 10, 2013 22:31:41 GMT -5
Children molested, tortured, and killed - god's will. Hard to imagine that people would worship an entity who would approve/condone such behavior. You want freewill, you'll have it, exparte. WTF will you do about it?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2013 23:08:00 GMT -5
Maybe maybe - another Christian maybe. You have no indication at all that any pagan centurions converted -- just a maybe. Maybe Jesus scared rats out of Gethsemane too. why do you have to tag on a smart comment in some of your posts? just seems like maybe you might have a little contempt for me
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2013 23:10:25 GMT -5
you could actually ask Him for your answers, i know a different God Then the god you know is not the god of the bible. yea tis
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2013 23:14:42 GMT -5
when and where did Jesus make sure they had swords? Jesus's answer to Peters use of the sword Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
i would say that Jesus was not to happy with Peters use of the sword and rebuked Peter so Jesus may have been upset with Peter for cutting off the guards ear, but that isn't what you asked me. You asked me where it is written that there was a scuffle and I showed you where there was a scuffle. Your next question was about where Jesus told them to buy a sword. Here is the verse. Now these were the two things that you said made you think that article was suspect because you didn't think Jesus asked them to buy a sword and you didn't think there was a scuffle. I've shown you that both are there if you looked for them. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+22:36 36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. i all ready knew that there was a confrontation in which Peter was involved in yes I had forgotten that verse thank you for pointing that out to me
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 11, 2013 0:41:08 GMT -5
This is not surprising. Isn't this required by your belief? Is there anything that happens that is not god's will? no No? Not even the The Holocaust?
The Holocaust was the mass murder or genocide of approximately six million Jews during World War II, a program of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party, throughout the German Reich and German-occupied territories.[3]
Of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds were killed.[4] Over one million Jewish children were killed in the Holocaust, as were approximately two million Jewish women and three million Jewish men.[5] A network of over 40,000 facilities in Germany and German-occupied territory were used to concentrate, hold, and kill Jews and other victims.[6]
from wiki
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Post by Lee on Dec 11, 2013 0:46:30 GMT -5
Nope
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 11, 2013 0:48:33 GMT -5
Children molested, tortured, and killed - god's will. Hard to imagine that people would worship an entity who would approve/condone such behavior. You want freewill, you'll have it, exparte. WTF will you do about it? "want freewill"?
I thought Christians claimed that God GAVE people "freewill."
Do about what? Having "freewill" or the "killing of children?"
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Post by Lee on Dec 11, 2013 1:14:57 GMT -5
You want freewill, you'll have it, exparte. WTF will you do about it? "want freewill"?
I thought Christians claimed that God GAVE people "freewill."God gave people freewill to choose freewill. Do about what? Having "freewill" or the "killing of children?" Both. What conventional solution is there to extricate our freewill from killing children?
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 11, 2013 2:02:33 GMT -5
Maybe maybe - another Christian maybe. You have no indication at all that any pagan centurions converted -- just a maybe. Maybe Jesus scared rats out of Gethsemane too. why do you have to tag on a smart comment in some of your posts? just seems like maybe you might have a little contempt for me I have no contempt for you. What I am somewhat contemptuous of is the way Christians have guessed and imagined their way into explanations for so much in the Bible that is absolutely clear enough on its own, but it doesn't mean what Christians want it to mean. They had to do this because most doctrines and theology of modern Christians originated in Paganism and not in the New Testament, and the theologians who are referred to as the "church fathers" are appropriately called that because it was them, not Jesus, who fashioned western Christianity. If it were a result of the general ignorance of people it might be excusable, but we now live in an age where people cannot be excused for not knowing the difference between the Gospels and modern Christianity. So to respond to your previous post, there is a way for us to know exactly what the term "God fearer" meant is Jesus day. No, the definition wasn't given in the Bible, but its absence from the Bible doesn't mean that every other source of its explanation is all a lie. God fearers were former Pagans who were uncircumcised believers in the god of Judaism, as did Jesus. So my question was this: If they already believed in the Christian god, would they be further converted just because they met their god's son? I'm trying to accommodate Christian philosophy into what the Bible says, but I am not inclined to accept that a modern Christian proposed definition of an ancient Jewish expression means something that the Jews did not mean when they used it. I have no objection to or contempt for those who need to believe their own understanding of the scriptures, but I don't usually go along with anything anyone says to me just to get along, even though it gets me in a lot of trouble.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 11, 2013 2:19:09 GMT -5
"want freewill"?
I thought Christians claimed that God GAVE people "freewill." God gave people freewill to choose freewill. Do about what? Having "freewill" or the "killing of children?" Both. What conventional solution is there to extricate our freewill from killing children? You are talking in circles again, your usual way of dealing with something about your god which you can't, or don't want, to explain.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2013 3:26:41 GMT -5
No? Yes and No? I have no idea which bits you are agreeing with or disagreeing with. In fact I have absolutely no idea what points you are attempting to make here. Matt10 I'm saying God isn't a conditional lover but the creator. I have still no idea what you are talking about. Matt10
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 11, 2013 3:38:57 GMT -5
I'm saying God isn't a conditional lover but the creator. I have still no idea what you are talking about. Matt10 Join the club, Matt!
I'm not sure lee even knows what he is talking about!
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Post by rational on Dec 11, 2013 9:17:39 GMT -5
Children molested, tortured, and killed - god's will. Hard to imagine that people would worship an entity who would approve/condone such behavior. You want freewill, you'll have it, exparte. I didn't say anything about freewill. I simply asked you if there was anything that happened that was not god's will. I also wonder how, believing as you do, you can reconcile the fact that the entity you worship condones so much evil. I asked you: Is there anything that happens that is not god's will?You responded: noSo everything that happens is god's will. Freewill would in that case only apply to god. What happens is not your will but, as you have indicated, god's will. WTF will you do about it? First of all I will not worship an entity whose will included the torture and murder of children. Secondly, I encourage people to take responsibility for their actions and not simply claim that everything is god's will. Thirdly I will continue to work with victims and do all that is possible to remove criminals to prevent them from continuing to harm others.
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