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Post by rational on Dec 12, 2013 22:31:22 GMT -5
Humans are evolving into what natural selection determines. Who created the nature of 'natural'? No one created it. It also evolved, along with the rest of the universe. Again, if you believe that your paranormal entity created it all you need to do is offer material or logical proof.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 12, 2013 22:36:32 GMT -5
I think you are missing the point. I am only looking at this from your point of view. I don't have to wait until death to have free will. I do not believe in your "puppet master". I don't know why. If people wanted to eliminate all risk of subsequent suffering they'd simply choose not to reproduce themselves. Passing the baton, granting freewill or freedom, call it what you will involves risk. If in fact humans didn't begin "poof, here's a pair" (an unlikely scenario IMO because they'd be w/o any manner of context necessary to function), if humans are evolving into what they are meant to be could one reasonably expect this procession to be anything less than a collision of sorts? If God redeems people from jungle-law with eye-for-eye and then improves upon this with the long-range vision or revelation of Christ, what more can you ask for? More randomness and more nihilism? More atheism? "if humans are evolving into what they are meant to be"
Your above statement shows that you have no idea how evolution works. You don't have the least idea what is the the driving force behind evolution.
Do you know diddly-squat about science at all?
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Post by Lee on Dec 12, 2013 22:37:26 GMT -5
If you want to sell this premise you will have to offer proof of who you believe is doing the redeeming. Bob wouldn't agree but Christ was in fact a historical person. I think you probably believe that Jesus was a historical person. Christ does not make an appearance in the bible until after Jesus died. But then, Daniel Boone and Andrew Jackson were historical people. What's your point? That God is sovereign over creation including your next breath.
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Post by Lee on Dec 12, 2013 22:39:08 GMT -5
Humans are evolving into what natural selection determines. Who created the nature of 'natural'? No one created it. It also evolved, along with the rest of the universe. From what? You don't know. Again, if you believe that your paranormal entity created it all you need to do is offer material or logical proof. You wouldn't believe it just like so many of Jesus' contemporaries.
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Post by Lee on Dec 12, 2013 22:41:32 GMT -5
I don't know why. If people wanted to eliminate all risk of subsequent suffering they'd simply choose not to reproduce themselves. Passing the baton, granting freewill or freedom, call it what you will involves risk. If in fact humans didn't begin "poof, here's a pair" (an unlikely scenario IMO because they'd be w/o any manner of context necessary to function), if humans are evolving into what they are meant to be could one reasonably expect this procession to be anything less than a collision of sorts? If God redeems people from jungle-law with eye-for-eye and then improves upon this with the long-range vision or revelation of Christ, what more can you ask for? More randomness and more nihilism? More atheism? "if humans are evolving into what they are meant to be"
Your above statement shows that you have no idea how evolution works. You don't have the least idea what is the the driving force behind evolution.
Do you know diddly-squat about science at all?
We would all worship science then except that people discern that science was made more man, not man for science.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 12, 2013 22:46:57 GMT -5
Lee, you are messing up again, -getting your own quotes and other people's quotes in the wrong boxes again!
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 12, 2013 22:53:13 GMT -5
"if humans are evolving into what they are meant to be"
Your above statement shows that you have no idea how evolution works. You don't have the least idea what is the the driving force behind evolution.
Do you know diddly-squat about science at all?
We would all worship science then except that people discern that science was made more man, not man for science. I think that you must be very tired. The above makes no sense at all.
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Post by rational on Dec 12, 2013 22:56:11 GMT -5
No one created it. It also evolved, along with the rest of the universe. From what? You don't know. No one knows. But in contrast to a paranormal based idea, the current theory is supported by the known data and it is able to predict future outcomes. So the answer is that you have nothing but your faith to support it. And that is fine. For you.
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Post by rational on Dec 12, 2013 22:59:02 GMT -5
I think you probably believe that Jesus was a historical person. Christ does not make an appearance in the bible until after Jesus died. But then, Daniel Boone and Andrew Jackson were historical people. What's your point? That God is sovereign over creation including your next breath. The interesting thing is how when actual facts, backed up with testable data, are presented you simply ignore the facts, change the subject, and, usually, throw in a god of the gaps for good measure.
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Post by Lee on Dec 12, 2013 23:03:57 GMT -5
From what? You don't know. No one knows. But in contrast to a paranormal based idea, the current theory is supported by the known data and it is able to predict future outcomes. But what is it? You're only able to detect a pattern of behavior. You cannot explicate upon the behavior without delving into the realm of metaphysics. Given as you are to philosophical-naturalism you're terribly equipped for that. You wouldn't believe it just like so many of Jesus' contemporaries. So the answer is that you have nothing but your faith to support it. And that is fine. For you. I have you! Who made you? Nothing obvious is telling.
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Post by Lee on Dec 12, 2013 23:07:34 GMT -5
That God is sovereign over creation including your next breath. The interesting thing is how when actual facts, backed up with testable data, are presented you simply ignore the facts, change the subject, and, usually, throw in a god of the gaps for good measure. And you still say the universe hangs upon the whim of a chance. Good job!
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Post by rational on Dec 12, 2013 23:21:38 GMT -5
The interesting thing is how when actual facts, backed up with testable data, are presented you simply ignore the facts, change the subject, and, usually, throw in a god of the gaps for good measure. And you still say the universe hangs upon the whim of a chance. Good job! So do you have some material or logical proof to present?
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Post by rational on Dec 12, 2013 23:23:07 GMT -5
I have you! Who made you? Nothing obvious is telling. Still nothing but spinning and churning.
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Post by Lee on Dec 12, 2013 23:24:59 GMT -5
And you still say the universe hangs upon the whim of a chance. Good job! So do you have some material or logical proof to present? Yes I already said you along with all the other specimens of intelligent life which should not be if everything were accidental.
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Post by rational on Dec 12, 2013 23:31:09 GMT -5
So do you have some material or logical proof to present? Yes I already said you along with all the other specimens of intelligent life which should not be if everything were accidental. Can you support that with material or logical proof?
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 12, 2013 23:45:23 GMT -5
Ah.., lee, but you believe that 'the universe hangs upon the whim of a god,' -a paranormal, supernatural being who torments, tortures and kills HIS own creation indiscriminately!
Job who worshiped HIM, yet HE killed Job's children! Just to "test" Job!
HE kills people that are completely innocent, -only close to the person that HE is finding fault with -like the infant son of David and Bathsheba!
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 12, 2013 23:50:59 GMT -5
So do you have some material or logical proof to present? Yes I already said you along with all the other specimens of intelligent life which should not be if everything were accidental. As I have said before, Lee, -you have no idea what evolution is about and it really shows! You just keep digging yourself in deeper and d-e-e p-e-r and d--e--e--p--e--r! ! ! ! ! !
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Post by Lee on Dec 13, 2013 1:00:14 GMT -5
Yes I already said you along with all the other specimens of intelligent life which should not be if everything were accidental. Can you support that with material or logical proof? If I wanted to I could even capture you alive!
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Post by Mary on Dec 13, 2013 1:07:12 GMT -5
We are mortal beings. We will all die some time. What is death but a stage into the next life. Sadness and sorrow is also part of life. Do you blame God if we die of a disease, an accident, or old age. God is in control of life and death regardless of how we die.
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Post by Lee on Dec 13, 2013 1:18:30 GMT -5
Ah.., lee, but you believe that 'the universe hangs upon the whim of a god,' -a paranormal, supernatural being who torments, tortures and kills HIS own creation indiscriminately!
Job who worshiped HIM, yet HE killed Job's children! Just to "test" Job!
HE kills people that are completely innocent, -only close to the person that HE is finding fault with -like the infant son of David and Bathsheba!
This is the God the Bible relates to us. He doesn't favor people like our fathers or mothers or masters might. He gives us the opportunity to view our life of bearing risk as a privilege. By bearing risk we can be grateful in spite of our circumstances. In spite of our circumstances we can be sure that our appreciation for life is pure and not merely a response to favor and thus we can be confident we are worthy of life!
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Post by Lee on Dec 13, 2013 1:22:31 GMT -5
Yes I already said you along with all the other specimens of intelligent life which should not be if everything were accidental. As I have said before, Lee, -you have no idea what evolution is about and it really shows! You just keep digging yourself in deeper and d-e-e p-e-r and d--e--e--p--e--r! ! ! ! ! !
Evolution has a God-cause?
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 13, 2013 1:57:23 GMT -5
As I have said before, Lee, -you have no idea what evolution is about and it really shows! You just keep digging yourself in deeper and d-e-e p-e-r and d--e--e--p--e--r! ! ! ! ! !
Evolution has a God-cause? D.E.E.E.P.P.E.R
D.E.E.E.E.P.P.P.E.E.E.R.R.R
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 13, 2013 2:01:35 GMT -5
Ah.., lee, but you believe that 'the universe hangs upon the whim of a god,' -a paranormal, supernatural being who torments, tortures and kills HIS own creation indiscriminately!
Job who worshiped HIM, yet HE killed Job's children! Just to "test" Job!
HE kills people that are completely innocent, -only close to the person that HE is finding fault with -like the infant son of David and Bathsheba!
This is the God the Bible relates to us. He doesn't favor people like our fathers or mothers or masters might. He gives us the opportunity to view our life of bearing risk as a privilege. By bearing risk we can be grateful in spite of our circumstances. In spite of our circumstances we can be sure that our appreciation for life is pure and not merely a response to favor and thus we can be confident we are worthy of life! AMAZING- ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!
How, when someone like you wants to believe something, -no matter how terrible, -they will rationalize it as something good!
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Post by rational on Dec 13, 2013 10:06:54 GMT -5
We are mortal beings. We will all die some time. What is death but a stage into the next life. That is one belief. Another is that it is the end of that organism.Of course, many animals feel sadness when they suffer a loss.Certainly not, no more than you would blame the FSM. These things happen. Being born is a death sentence. On the other hand I do not thank god, or the FSM, when good things happen. They also do happen.This is your belief. Extending that to a larger picture, it means that god already knows if you are going to heaven or hell. No matter what you do, it is all set. Unless, of course, you think god is wrong in his/her thinking.
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Post by Mary on Dec 13, 2013 13:57:48 GMT -5
God knows the choices we will make. He gave us a free will. He doesn't choose them for us, we do. But he knows everything so he know those who are His. By that I mean he already knows the end we will choose. So why does he waste his time letting us slog away down here if he already knows our life choices. Well, this is our privilege to live this life. It makes me think of a person building a house. We know the finished article, but we need to start from scratch and build it. No house if no building. No life, no choices, no beginning and no end.
Dmm, how is God any less responsible for Job's children dying than he is me and you? You could say God kills all of us. After all we are born to die. Who is responsible for your death when you die? How is that any different from Job's children dying?
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 13, 2013 14:47:14 GMT -5
God knows the choices we will make. He gave us a free will. He doesn't choose them for us, we do. But he knows everything so he know those who are His. By that I mean he already knows the end we will choose. So why does he waste his time letting us slog away down here if he already knows our life choices. Well, this is our privilege to live this life. It makes me think of a person building a house. We know the finished article, but we need to start from scratch and build it. No house if no building. No life, no choices, no beginning and no end. Dmm, how is God any less responsible for Job's children dying than he is me and you? You could say God kills all of us. After all we are born to die. Who is responsible for your death when you die? How is that any different from Job's children dying? How can you even ask this question if you have read the book of Job?
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Post by rational on Dec 13, 2013 14:52:30 GMT -5
God knows the choices we will make. He gave us a free will. He doesn't choose them for us, we do. If you have resolved it to your satisfaction you are good to go. For most people, however, the paradox of free will means that free will and omniscience and are incompatible. So your destiny is sealed. At this point you cannot change the outcome.A better question is why do people waste their time trying to 'get right' with god? If someone is or controls the agent that terminated life functions they are responsible. When you step on an ant you are responsible for that ant's death. When you spray for insects you are responsible for the death of those animals.
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Post by Mary on Dec 13, 2013 15:39:28 GMT -5
What I am getting at is that God is responsible for everyone's death one way or another, no matter how we die. God created life and death. Our destiny is not sealed in the way you may be meaning. God knows the end, yes. There is nothing hid from His eyes. He has seen it. He knows everything. We seal our own destiny. God sees the future we do not. He does not choose our future we do. God has seen the choices we will make. The same way as God knows when the end of the world will be. He doesn't control it, we do but God has already seen it, because he is all knowing and all seeing, as they say. Believe it or not, God already knows your end. He did not create your end, you do but he knows the choices you will make before you make them. After all He is God. The future is hidden from our eyes, but it is not hidden from God's eyes.
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