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Vietnam
Jun 4, 2014 22:45:22 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jun 4, 2014 22:45:22 GMT -5
I have shared with you the longing heart of an elderly lady. Today I tell you the other lady, Kim Anh, why she come with us?. She is married with 2 grown up children. Previously she was very happy in the way of God, enthusiastically spoke about God to many people that she contacted. But after uncle Chau’s happenings, she was very sad, puzzled, cried…she accompanied us to visit many places efficiently…Sometimes, she went to and from more than 500 km by motorbyke to take her friend and her daughter to meeting place. The workers call at her home regularly but sometimes she doesn’t speak anything in the fellowship meeting. When workers come, she will receive and if they ask, she will reply that she doesn’t have anything to share. Recently she has suddenly become quiet and avoided to contact even through telephone… she was confused, puzzled, not knowing to follow who to be right(continue to be in 2x2 system as uncle Chau persuaded or gather with us in spirit and truth, not be bound any laws of 2x2 system) After 3 months of silence, she said that she only worship God in her heart and she suddenly appeared last Sunday, with happy face, she asked about the time of gatherings and the distant visit. Last Wednesday we had a wonderful study Bible meeting. In John 14, an interesting chapter. There were many thoughts comforting and helping us : • Do not let your hearts be troubled. • I will not leave you as orphans. • Peace I leave with you. • Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. Through many experiences I see truly the Holy Spirit be with and guide me, He does not let me orphan, alone. Now I only want to say as David in Psalm 23 Surely your goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.I wonder how many others are struggling like Kim Anh and will eventually leave the foreign workers fellowship?
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Post by minhthanh on Jun 5, 2014 7:48:58 GMT -5
There are many friends are struggling while they are still in 2x2 fellowship. Sadly for the mess happening, but they continue in 2x2 because of afraid they may lose their souls (Especially they believe in uncle Châu, but not satisfy). I know an elder, he was my classmate at primary school. He said with me that the fellowship at his home now isn't good or happy as before. One sister very close to uncle Châu, visited our friends and said "Wishing all the Canadian workers back to their country". I couldn't see the satisfaction on them, even with uncle Châu.
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Post by fixit on Jun 6, 2014 2:56:56 GMT -5
1. She suggested uncle Hoa to return to help uncle Chau because uncle Chau will assume the charge of overseer when he comes home from the USA. And uncle Chau will do anything that is in the Bible only. 2. The foreign workers that do not do accordingly to the Bible will be chased home. That seems like a good solution to the mess created by workers who are rulers more than feeders.
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Vietnam
Jun 6, 2014 10:07:54 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 6, 2014 10:07:54 GMT -5
Yesterday I mentioned about the ladder. Genesis 28:12 "And he dreamed. And behold, a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven. And behold, the angels of God ascending and descending on it." I heard many times workers telling about it. They likened the ladder as the only perfect way, the Truth leading people to heaven. This made me sorry for people in other religions be perishable. I also have read many times this verse John 14:6 " Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" I have never related the above two verses together until yesterday. I was very happy and saw clearly that the ladder here is the life of Jesus Christ, not any churches, not any ways, not any organisations but Christ, Himself. Wonderful!!! You reminded me of this verse in John 1:51 "…50Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than these." 51And He said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see the heavens opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man." I always felt like Jacob's ladder vision was perhaps the angels ministering unto him.....he perhaps needed those ministering angels. And the reason he saw it this way was perhaps that God was showing him that His angels were sent to him and His angels would return to heaven.....something like that....but yes, it seems to be OT scripture foretelling about Jesus' words to his perspective apostles.
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Post by minhthanh on Jun 12, 2014 8:29:43 GMT -5
Last Tuesday , we took our parents to My Tho (70 km away from Saigon) to visit auntie Thống (an eldely friend). She has had trouble with the heart for many years. A few times we thought she would have gone but luckily she gradually restored. This time she was weak again , stayed in bed but her spirit was strong. Seeing her reminded me the time we had conventions in her home. Her husband passed away 17 years ago. They were very respected elders. One time Darrel came to visit her. She said to him: “if you loved God’s people in Vietnam, I think you should leave here”. She always showed us the pictures that gathered in her home everytime we visited her. You can see in the picture we posted a pile of album beside.
This is a big house receiving a lot of people gathering. Now only auntie Thống, her daughter and the son in-law present at the end of the week were living there. Auntie Thống appreciated uncle Hoa and Chau. Uncle Hoa regularly called at them. She said to uncle Hoa: “I am happy to find the Spirit of God in you through your preaching”. The young workers repeatedly said: “ the past is of the devil”…but the elderly people such as auntie Thong, auntie Lan remembered and reminded the preaching that workers and God people cooperated in the old time to serve God. In the end of this month we will visit a most elderly lady of our friends in Vietnam now…
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Vietnam
Jun 12, 2014 12:47:43 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Jun 12, 2014 12:47:43 GMT -5
She might be weak, but she looks very happy in this picture!
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Post by fixit on Jun 12, 2014 14:45:21 GMT -5
One time Darrel came to visit her. She said to him: “if you loved God’s people in Vietnam, I think you should leave here”. She's a forthright lady!
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Vietnam
Jun 15, 2014 9:17:44 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jun 15, 2014 9:17:44 GMT -5
I spent an evening with uncle Chau at one of the Vietnamese professing homes in Portland tonight. We talked and discussed many topics, health wise he looks very good, Alert, and lively. He is leaving Portland on Monday. He enjoys his time in the states. Congratulate that you had met uncle Châu and discussed many topics with him. Only a few days rest uncle Châu will return back to VN. We are expecting his returning day to see if there is any change. Auntie Lan has longed for his returning day to be an overseer as in the old time, and hope he will lead and perform every thing accordingly to the Bible. If these things become true as she has dreamt, everybody will be happy. I know for sure that he will continue any job, at any place that his overseer (Mr. Lyle Shultz) will arrange for him. I am happy that uncle Châu still looks very good, Alert, and lively. I also hope to have opportunity to discuss many topics with him
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 16, 2014 20:51:16 GMT -5
When it is constantly reinforced to a person that their particular group is the only pathway to heaven, it is not surprising that many friends are afraid that they "may lose their souls" if they leave the meetings. It's a sad situation that they find themselves in. We are praying that Christ will reassure these folks that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and if they place their trust in Him alone that He has promised to save them. We know from the Bible that God always keeps His promises. True teaching will always point us to Christ. False teaching will always give man a major role in the salvation process. Ross, would you like to answer Snow's post... on Once SAVED is Always SAVED.So basically this thread says that because I once professed and gave my life to Jesus and God I am still saved now even though I no longer even believe in them? Nathan and Snow..it is always possible to fall from grace. I think one example is the anointed king of Israel Saul...... then again David was anointed as well, he did something that the Mosaic laws said he and the lady involved should have been stoned to death. BUT WHAT happened? WHY did Saul not get to return to grace? But David did? I think everything comes under the first two commandments when judgment is meted out appropriately and that is because both of those commandments are about "love". Snow, you should understand this one....the priority love is for the Lord our God...that is for those who believe in Him. The natural succession of love is to love our neighbors as ourselves....and MOses law was not speaking to just those who live in our very own area within blocks or miles...our neighbor is he who is not of our immediate family and does not belong under our roofs. So the answer to give about people being able to fall from grace is the fact of what that grace means to them....or do they really believe that Jesus Christ's sacrifice IS TRULY enough to bring them salvation. That all they have to do for themselves is to repent and choose to be baptized.....BUT we need to consider there are people who are worried about dying unsaved, so they rush things and they so called repent and ask for baptism so that if they should die they're in good shape eternally. WE MUST remember that those whom the FATHER draws are the ones who are the ones who are given the gift of "faith" in the blood of Jesus Christ. So being one to fall out of grace is like Saul, and that is not believing that Jesus Christ's sacrifice is enough that has bought them salvation so they're going to do they're own type of activity and sacrifices......That won't work int he eyes of God......because God hasn't drawn such a person....
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Post by minhthanh on Jun 17, 2014 20:39:09 GMT -5
It is really I was bound in many rules of 2x2 religion more than 50 years, so I was afraid that if I was not in that religion I would not be saved. My husband often talks to me that I was indoctrinated so much and so long that the things of 2x2 religion have impressed too deeply in my mind. Thanks to God who has mercy on me, by many ways He has showed me the scheme of 2x2 overseers and their evil deeds. I realize that there is no sincerity, no love, no unity in them. I agree with Sharingtheriches, we have to honor and love our God in first place then we have to love our neighbors as ourselves. Through the work of overseers in Viet Nam, I see clearly they request others to give them the highest respect. They don’t respect others but request others to respect to them the highest. Meanwhile our Lord Jesus has set an example differently… So I boldly left them without any fear for I know God is not with this mindset.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2014 22:42:39 GMT -5
Ross, I had a similar experience a few years ago. I noticed my voice teacher had a sticker for a local church on her car and I mentioned I had heard her pastor preach and that I was impressed. We spent 30 minutes talking about scripture, the work of Christ in our lives, prayer, helping others...I was stunned. I talked with her like a close friend about things I had never once talked to with anyone in the fellowship, including my Mom. She never for a minute doubted I was a Christian. God was so gracious to me in that moment of learning.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 18, 2014 10:42:29 GMT -5
It is really I was bound in many rules of 2x2 religion more than 50 years, so I was afraid that if I was not in that religion I would not be saved. My husband often talks to me that I was indoctrinated so much and so long that the things of 2x2 religion have impressed too deeply in my mind. Thanks to God who has mercy on me, by many ways He has showed me the scheme of 2x2 overseers and their evil deeds. I realize that there is no sincerity, no love, no unity in them. I agree with Sharingtheriches, we have to honor and love our God in first place then we have to love our neighbors as ourselves. Through the work of overseers in Viet Nam, I see clearly they request others to give them the highest respect. They don’t respect others but request others to respect to them the highest. Meanwhile our Lord Jesus has set an example differently… So I boldly left them without any fear for I know God is not with this mindset. And the most wonderful thing is that whether you continue to fellowship just with those who have left or fellowship with other Christians (or a combination of both) Christ will be with you as you call on His name. I have written about it previously but when you go through the whole leaving process and fear that you have potentially lost your salvation you simply ask for God's guidance and for His Holy Spirit to continue to guide and lead you. It's amazing what comfort and guidance it brings. It's amazing how the lenses through which you see other Christians change - God brings you into touch with so many different people. One story I love to relate is when Jo and I were on holidays in Vanuatu. We were still professing but had let go of the exclusive 2x2 mindset to a point. There was a woman who cleaned our room. We got talking to her and something about her was different. God was drawing us to her to teach us more about Himself and His Kingdom on earth. A few days later we were walking through the resort and we took a back path to our villa. We turned the corner and the cleaning lady was sitting behind a coconut palm praying. We talked to her about it and she said she did it every day. To cut a long story short she invited us to her church and the next Sunday we ended up in a little village 40 minutes outside Port Villa. There were around 30-40 people gathered - dirt floor with a few posts and some corrugated iron on the roof. We were welcomed as fellow Christians - there by the grace of God shown to us in the Lord Jesus. We were asked to share our testimonies which we did. Afterwards, we had lunch sitting on a dirt floor sharing some chicken and rice. The woman just happened to be the minister's wife and they were very gracious and very humble. The people were poor but they shared what they had - and we were all one in Christ Jesus. It was a wonderful experience. It was a key turning point in our Christian walk. God was saying to us - these are also my people. They have my mercy, my grace and my compassion. They are mine. We also learned that day about the power and authority of God - who were we to keep God in our little box? Who were we to say that this little church in the middle of nowhere, which was borne out of Christian missionaries who had worked in that part of the world many years before - was not part of Christ's church on earth. The answer from God was simply that it would be presumptuous, proud and indeed self-righteous for us to believe that. It was His work, His Kingdom - not ours. It was a powerful reminder from God that He is in control. As it says in Isaiah "surely the nations are like a drop in a bucket; they are regarded as dust on the scales; he weighs the islands as though they were fine dust." God dealt with us very kindly on that holiday. I say Amen to that which MT wrote as well as appreciating what Ross has shared. Some on here would remember a couple of years ago when I finally left the 2x2 church, my testimony had been a daily and a twice daily prayer to God that HE WOULD show me undisputable proof that HE desired for me to exit the 2x2's. That plea was consistently repeated o'er and o'er. Well, that spring after almost 3 years of pleaing this way...we had a harsh late huge snow which froze the ground deeply and then when it thawed it caused a lot of travel problems in certain areas in and about this area. There was about 5 straight Sundays that I couldn't go to Sun. a.m. mtg. and it was NOT anything of my choosing. Then by the time things began to open up, I was being pushed for Spring spec. mtg. guest privileges and in order not to get involved in that I just refused any such privileges and I never went back to mtgs. after those 5 Suns. having missed due to no fault or choice of my own. I felt God had shown me adequate and very well that He felt it well within His Will that I leave the church of the 2x2's. I haven't been ot a Sun. mtg. or a conv. mtg either. One of our overseers had told me that I would know who was right because of the fruit that they bore! Well, that was about the time all the CSA issues were rolling right and left out of the workership and an occasional one out of the friends.....that spoke to me that IF that is their "fruit" that they bore, then I wanted nothing to do with their "wild trees".....or to walk in the darkness with them any longer....that Jesus is my God and Saviour and His fruit is what I look for...plus Jesus said to walk in the light as he is the light. I agree that it is over-arrogant for the workers and friends to think that they'll be the only people who are saved. It really causes me to tremble in fear for them and for the times I thought that because that is what I was taught to think! Isn't that setting a pretty strict judgment against ourselves, for are we not to be judged by the way we judge others? That is a pretty heavy burden to bear, IMO!
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Post by minhthanh on Jun 18, 2014 23:03:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the writing of Sharingtheriches. The same as you, I was wavering in a few years, every night praying with tears that God would reveal me His will because what I have seen happenings in Viet Nam are neither the fruit of Spirit of God, nor like the teachings in the Bible. Until one day I had known their deeds, as well as their scheme, I saw it is true as the verse in the Bible:Luke 12:3 “ What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.” I have not been wavering and worried any more, but on the contrary I want to fear our God more and live more sincerely. At the same time I learned in Revelation 21:8 “But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part [shall be] in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.”
Studying this part reminded me because the liars couldn’t enter the Kingdom but their part is in the lake of fire… I will tell you why uncle Hoa was sad and didn’t agree with them about their way of doing in VN. It is related to this part of Bible. I will write later.
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Vietnam
Jun 19, 2014 23:17:30 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jun 19, 2014 23:17:30 GMT -5
This is a part of Mr Lyle’s letter to his staff mentioning about uncle Hoa. he got quite upset and told us clearly that he does not agree with the way that we are working and that we can tell our people that. He closed the discussion with that and got up and left. I will explain this part, not only for you but also for Lyle’s staff if they have chance to give a glance, because he didn’t tell clearly what uncle Hoa didn’t agree with!!! I have posted Mr. Lyle’s original letter at page 87 in which it mentioned uncle Hoa. He finally told us that he is not in agreement with the way that we are working here. We made no headway in our attempt to visit with him further on that subject and eventually he terminated our discussion abruptly and left. The things that uncle Hoa told to them are very clearly, and uncle Hoa wanted Mr. Lyle told again to the people the things that he didn’t agree. (we can tell our people that). But Mr Lyle didn’t make clear with his staff or God’s people. He only said generally so who can understand!!! He isn’t fairplay!!! Do you know uncle Hoa’s ideas? Fortunately that day uncle Hoa was staying at our house, so he explained clearly for us. Uncle Hoa mentioned two things to help them: firstly be right to the teaching of Bible, secondly God’s people don’t have to tell lie … because of them!!! (I am sorry to stop here, I will tell clearer the two things that uncle Hoa mentioned tomorrow)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2014 3:08:48 GMT -5
Once again the question Gene Luxon asked me USA Memorial Day 1990 arises that finally helped me discern what I had been so blind to for many decades, "Dennis, where does the Bible teach lies come from?" My answer? From my human heart which is deceitful and above all desparately wicked, and Satan the Father of all lies! This should reveal the origin of 2&isms falsehoods for each honest hearted person, no?
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Vietnam
Jun 20, 2014 9:46:11 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jun 20, 2014 9:46:11 GMT -5
If I wasn’t forced to ask Mr. Lyle and Colin to have lunch at our home, uncle Hoa shouldn’t have met Mr. Lyle. The guest I invited to have lunch was Ray, a Phillipine ex-worker. Ray asked me to send some words to uncle Hoa to invite him returning to Saigon for him encountering and insisted me to invite the 2 workers (Mr Lyle & Colin) because Ray was staying at their batch.
Although uncle Hoa hadn’t cooperated with them, but when Mr. Lyle asked uncle Hoa to come over their batch to talk, uncle Hoa was willing to come. I like this mindset of uncle Hoa, yet prior to this uncle Hoa said to me that if he had known I had invited Mr Lyle he shouldn’t had returned to Saigon.
I was so surprised when I saw him returning so soon, perhaps they had talked not more than an hour.
Uncle hoa told us about the questions of Mr. Lyle, the same as in the letter he sent to his staff.
We felt that it was necessary for us to speak directly with Uncle Hoa so that we can give a suitable answer to those who enquire about his activities. During our visit together, we asked Uncle Hoa several times to tell us clearly what we should tell our friends regarding his relationship with us.
1. Uncle Hoa straightforwardly persuaded them to register their work in Viet Nam with the authorities, the same as formely uncle Fred registered legally with the authorities to have permission licence to practice their religion. If they hadn’t fullfilled this, they didn’t obey the authorities, didn’t do according to the teaching of the Bible.
2. Workers should join the social actvities, teach or do the charity in order they could contact with many strange people, at the same time they had good pictures in the eyes of the authorities. In the old time, workers such as uncle Fred taught English (Mr. Hiền, uncle Châu’s brother had attended one of these classes). Auntie Phillis and Bonnie came to the hospitals to visit the patients…due to this some disabled ex-serviceman knew God.
Doing these two above things helped God’s people not to have lied to the authorities about their presence in Viet Nam.
Almost many friends would tell lies when they were asked by the authorities. We also had told lies to cover up their presence.
One lady told lie that they were foreign medical doctors, her husband’s friends at the hospital.
I told lie that they were the boss at my working place. Others told their colleague.
I felt sorry for friends in the rural place, they were afraid to be questioned by the authorities…because they didn’t know how to reply logically!!!
Recently we received a married couple from Sông Rây, on the way to see the doctor in Saigon, they called at our house to have lunch as we invited them.
the wife said: “we should thank to them for the mess they caused, because through it we can see clearly, after a long period of time following them that we also told lies… and there were so many lies that I felt this religion taught me to do. Now I feel happy to escape these things, I didn’t have to cover up or tell lies any more”
I only share here the things uncle Hoa told me, because I didn’t see Mr Lyle mentioning in his letter to friends or to his staff !!! We made no headway in our attempt to visit with him further on that subject and eventually he terminated our discussion abruptly and left.
Of course how could Mr Lyle accept uncle’s Hoa suggestions. They wanted to be easy and friends continue to cover them up even though they have to tell lies…
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 20, 2014 12:02:45 GMT -5
These lies that are very evident amongst the workers and friends or at least some of them, tell me that most of the teaching I got was from my Gram who had been brought up by a very strict Southern Baptist preacher. I've always wondered where she had come up with all her reasonings in her guidances, but she definitely was against lying. Her mantra against lying was "Always tell the truth, for if you don't you will find yourself having to tell more and more lies to cover up your first lie because you don't nor can you remember the first lies!" Smart old lady, eh?
I'm sorry that the Vietnamese friends had to experience what they've experienced but perhaps it wasn't by chance that that happened. God certainly knows those who are seeking to love and obey Him regardless!
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Post by fixit on Jun 20, 2014 14:50:40 GMT -5
If I wasn’t forced to ask Mr. Lyle and Colin to have lunch at our home, uncle Hoa shouldn’t have met Mr. Lyle. The guest I invited to have lunch was Ray, a Phillipine ex-worker. Ray asked me to send some words to uncle Hoa to invite him returning to Saigon for him encountering and insisted me to invite the 2 workers (Mr Lyle & Colin) because Ray was staying at their batch. Although uncle Hoa hadn’t cooperated with them, but when Mr. Lyle asked uncle Hoa to come over their batch to talk, uncle Hoa was willing to come. I like this mindset of uncle Hoa, yet prior to this uncle Hoa said to me that if he had known I had invited Mr Lyle he shouldn’t had returned to Saigon. I was so surprised when I saw him returning so soon, perhaps they had talked not more than an hour. Uncle hoa told us about the questions of Mr. Lyle, the same as in the letter he sent to his staff. We felt that it was necessary for us to speak directly with Uncle Hoa so that we can give a suitable answer to those who enquire about his activities. During our visit together, we asked Uncle Hoa several times to tell us clearly what we should tell our friends regarding his relationship with us. 1. Uncle Hoa straightforwardly persuaded them to register their work in Viet Nam with the authorities, the same as formely uncle Fred registered legally with the authorities to have permission licence to practice their religion. If they hadn’t fullfilled this, they didn’t obey the authorities, didn’t do according to the teaching of the Bible. 2. Workers should join the social actvities, teach or do the charity in order they could contact with many strange people, at the same time they had good pictures in the eyes of the authorities. In the old time, workers such as uncle Fred taught English (Mr. Hiền, uncle Châu’s brother had attended one of these classes). Auntie Phillis and Bonnie came to the hospitals to visit the patients…due to this some disabled ex-serviceman knew God. Doing these two above things helped God’s people not to have lied to the authorities about their presence in Viet Nam. Almost any friends would tell lies when they were asked by the authorities. We also had told lies to cover up thei presence. One lady told lie that they were foreign medical doctors, her husband’s friends at the hospital. I told lie that they were the boss at my working place. Others told their colleague. I felt sorry for friends in the rural place, they were afraid to be questioned by the authorities…because they didn’t know how to reply logically!!! Recently we received a married couple from Sông Rây, on the way to see the doctor in Saigon, they called at our house to have lunch as we invited them. the wife said: “we should thank to them for the mess they caused, because through it we can see clearly, after a long period of time following them that we also told lies… and there were so many lies that I felt this religion taught me to do. Now I feel happy to escape these things, I didn’t have to cover up or tell lies any more” I only share here the things uncle Hoa told me, because I didn’t see Mr Lyle mentioning in his letter. We made no headway in our attempt to visit with him further on that subject and eventually he terminated our discussion abruptly and left.
Of course how could Mr Lyle accept uncle’s Hoa suggestions. They wanted to be easy and friends continue to cover them up even though they have to tell lies… Thanks for explaining this MT. I can't imagine Jesus telling lies to hide his work from secular authorities. I doubt he would ask his friends to lie in order to protect him.
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Vietnam
Jun 20, 2014 15:31:11 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2014 15:31:11 GMT -5
I agree Fixit. Peter and Paul were straight up in their interactions with authority--at great personal cost.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 8:41:56 GMT -5
When your presence in a country is based on a falsehood, how could that not negatively affect everything you do? You would have to practice falsehood every day until it became easy to do. You would get skilled at telling lies and no longer feel bad about doing it.
This deceptive lifestyle is sold to the friends in North America as though it is some form of heroism. The authorities are presented like they are evil ogres whose purpose in life is the thwart and threaten "God's kingdom". Many of the friends buy into that, and figure that the workers are pretty clever to spread the gospel under the noses of a thuggish government. I recall one VN worker talking about foreign friends going different directions after a meeting in order to trick the authorities that there wasn't an illegal gathering going on. More recently, a VN worker stated that the ministry in VN goes on "in disguise", an outright (but acceptable apparently) admission of hypocrisy.
From what I understand, the government of VN isn't against religion, they are against assemblies that could turn into an anti-government political force. The F&Ws are far from being any sort of political force, but when they hide and lie about what they are doing, they are probably in more danger from government prosecution than if they were open and honest about what they are doing.
Minh Thanh is perfectly correct as to why Lyle et al could not accept Hoa's requests. They are committed to deceiving the government for fear lest they lose their presence and control of the F&Ws in VN. They continue to practice deception about Hoa's departure by not disclosing his requests to register openly with the government.
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Vietnam
Jun 21, 2014 9:42:37 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 21, 2014 9:42:37 GMT -5
When your presence in a country is based on a falsehood, how could that not negatively affect everything you do? You would have to practice falsehood every day until it became easy to do. You would get skilled at telling lies and no longer feel bad about doing it. This deceptive lifestyle is sold to the friends in North America as though it is some form of heroism. The authorities are presented like they are evil ogres whose purpose in life is the thwart and threaten "God's kingdom". Many of the friends buy into that, and figure that the workers are pretty clever to spread the gospel under the noses of a thuggish government. I recall one VN worker talking about foreign friends going different directions after a meeting in order to trick the authorities that there wasn't an illegal gathering going on. More recently, a VN worker stated that the ministry in VN goes on "in disguise", an outright (but acceptable apparently) admission of hypocrisy. From what I understand, the government of VN isn't against religion, they are against assemblies that could turn into an anti-government political force. The F&Ws are far from being any sort of political force, but when they hide and lie about what they are doing, they are probably in more danger from government prosecution than if they were open and honest about what they are doing. Minh Thanh is perfectly correct as to why Lyle et al could not accept Hoa's requests. They are committed to deceiving the government for fear lest they lose their presence and control of the F&Ws in VN. They continue to practice deception about Hoa's departure by not disclosing his requests to register openly with the government. When workers return to their homeland from foreign field labors they seem to need to make their experiences to be so absolutely trialsome and people hardships! This telling to their homeland friends and workers that the gospel goes in disguise in VN is a lie, but they tell it to give themselves a greatness before their homeland folks...it gives the foreign field workers a special place even above that of homeland workers. They are worshipped highly and made over much......I saw this many years ago amongst some folks my own age as they went into foreign field workerships, they came home and even in the home they grew up in, they were placed on pedestals and worshipped as if what they did, no body else could do. Also a relative who was in the work said to me one day that they were the "only" one in the whole family that ever went into the work. Well, as time brings all truths out, there was some manipulations from that same person to keep it that they were the "only" one in the whole family. They hold themselves to a works-based salvation, but at the same time they cancel it all out with such human pride! That troubles me greatly. And yes, I have participated in such when in the 2x2 esp. when a teenager. People want to deny they worship the workers, but they just need to sit back and look at this particular thing for it is undisputable how they respond to these poor workers who have had to work under such awful conditions to meek out a convert here and there....as in VN under "disguise"! If the VN authorities happen to read TMB, and if I were a worker planning going and staying there, I would shake in my boots for I know when the authorities connected the dots that they might incarcerate me or at best kick me out of the country so fast I'd miss that fast moving ship!
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Vietnam
Jun 21, 2014 10:16:44 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 10:16:44 GMT -5
STR, for myself, there was another motivation for offering to go to another Country to preach 2&2ism. It was that I believed "Where there is no open vision, people perish."
Knowing that one day I would return to much praise and honor in that fellowship for having "kept true," became part of the enemy of my soul's arsenal of weapons to keep me "keeping on." Now I wish people to understand, that because of decades of multigenerational indoctrination, leaving that work was far more difficult than going ever was. More anguish, stress, tears, loss of "place" and honor, not understood until almost two decades later and after excommunication resulting in even more anguish and sorrow.
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Vietnam
Jun 21, 2014 10:55:44 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 10:55:44 GMT -5
When your presence in a country is based on a falsehood, how could that not negatively affect everything you do? You would have to practice falsehood every day until it became easy to do. You would get skilled at telling lies and no longer feel bad about doing it. This deceptive lifestyle is sold to the friends in North America as though it is some form of heroism. The authorities are presented like they are evil ogres whose purpose in life is the thwart and threaten "God's kingdom". Many of the friends buy into that, and figure that the workers are pretty clever to spread the gospel under the noses of a thuggish government. I recall one VN worker talking about foreign friends going different directions after a meeting in order to trick the authorities that there wasn't an illegal gathering going on. More recently, a VN worker stated that the ministry in VN goes on "in disguise", an outright (but acceptable apparently) admission of hypocrisy. From what I understand, the government of VN isn't against religion, they are against assemblies that could turn into an anti-government political force. The F&Ws are far from being any sort of political force, but when they hide and lie about what they are doing, they are probably in more danger from government prosecution than if they were open and honest about what they are doing. Minh Thanh is perfectly correct as to why Lyle et al could not accept Hoa's requests. They are committed to deceiving the government for fear lest they lose their presence and control of the F&Ws in VN. They continue to practice deception about Hoa's departure by not disclosing his requests to register openly with the government. When workers return to their homeland from foreign field labors they seem to need to make their experiences to be so absolutely trialsome and people hardships! This telling to their homeland friends and workers that the gospel goes in disguise in VN is a lie, but they tell it to give themselves a greatness before their homeland folks...it gives the foreign field workers a special place even above that of homeland workers. They are worshipped highly and made over much......I saw this many years ago amongst some folks my own age as they went into foreign field workerships, they came home and even in the home they grew up in, they were placed on pedestals and worshipped as if what they did, no body else could do. Also a relative who was in the work said to me one day that they were the "only" one in the whole family that ever went into the work. Well, as time brings all truths out, there was some manipulations from that same person to keep it that they were the "only" one in the whole family. They hold themselves to a works-based salvation, but at the same time they cancel it all out with such human pride! That troubles me greatly. And yes, I have participated in such when in the 2x2 esp. when a teenager. People want to deny they worship the workers, but they just need to sit back and look at this particular thing for it is undisputable how they respond to these poor workers who have had to work under such awful conditions to meek out a convert here and there....as in VN under "disguise"! If the VN authorities happen to read TMB, and if I were a worker planning going and staying there, I would shake in my boots for I know when the authorities connected the dots that they might incarcerate me or at best kick me out of the country so fast I'd miss that fast moving ship! While there is some legal jeopardy for foreign workers in VN, the truth is that the F&Ws pose a zero threat to the stability of the government so it is unlikely that they would put a lot of effort into prosecuting them unless they did it to make an example of them for unregistered church groups. Or, an overzealous official could start something too. However, the VN government have enough on their hands with church groups who are campaigning for democracy and other social freedoms which threaten the status quo in VN.
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Vietnam
Jun 21, 2014 13:57:23 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 13:57:23 GMT -5
When your presence in a country is based on a falsehood, how could that not negatively affect everything you do? You would have to practice falsehood every day until it became easy to do. You would get skilled at telling lies and no longer feel bad about doing it. This deceptive lifestyle is sold to the friends in North America as though it is some form of heroism. The authorities are presented like they are evil ogres whose purpose in life is the thwart and threaten "God's kingdom". Many of the friends buy into that, and figure that the workers are pretty clever to spread the gospel under the noses of a thuggish government. I recall one VN worker talking about foreign friends going different directions after a meeting in order to trick the authorities that there wasn't an illegal gathering going on. More recently, a VN worker stated that the ministry in VN goes on "in disguise", an outright (but acceptable apparently) admission of hypocrisy. From what I understand, the government of VN isn't against religion, they are against assemblies that could turn into an anti-government political force. The F&Ws are far from being any sort of political force, but when they hide and lie about what they are doing, they are probably in more danger from government prosecution than if they were open and honest about what they are doing. Minh Thanh is perfectly correct as to why Lyle et al could not accept Hoa's requests. They are committed to deceiving the government for fear lest they lose their presence and control of the F&Ws in VN. They continue to practice deception about Hoa's departure by not disclosing his requests to register openly with the government. Uncle Hoa, Chau and the friends in VN KNEW and accepted why the foreigner workers status as teachers, foreigners investors in VN since the yr. 2000s. The Vietamese staff has been working in KNOWING why they do things in VN for years.... So, Why would uncle Hoa wants to request them to register now?.... It is because he/Hoa doesn't want the foreigner workers to stay in VN? Didn't a lot of workers switch over to the 3 month visitor visa, then step over to Cambodia or Laos, get another 3 month visitor visa, and so on? It's one thing to go in as an ESL teacher and do the teaching. It's another thing to claim you are a tourist when you actually consider yourself a resident preacher.
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Vietnam
Jun 21, 2014 14:58:06 GMT -5
Post by Greg on Jun 21, 2014 14:58:06 GMT -5
When workers return to their homeland from foreign field labors they seem to need to make their experiences to be so absolutely trialsome and people hardships! This telling to their homeland friends and workers that the gospel goes in disguise in VN is a lie, but they tell it to give themselves a greatness before their homeland folks...it gives the foreign field workers a special place even above that of homeland workers. They are worshipped highly and made over much......I saw this many years ago amongst some folks my own age as they went into foreign field workerships, they came home and even in the home they grew up in, they were placed on pedestals and worshipped as if what they did, no body else could do. Also a relative who was in the work said to me one day that they were the "only" one in the whole family that ever went into the work. Well, as time brings all truths out, there was some manipulations from that same person to keep it that they were the "only" one in the whole family. They hold themselves to a works-based salvation, but at the same time they cancel it all out with such human pride! That troubles me greatly. And yes, I have participated in such when in the 2x2 esp. when a teenager. People want to deny they worship the workers, but they just need to sit back and look at this particular thing for it is undisputable how they respond to these poor workers who have had to work under such awful conditions to meek out a convert here and there....as in VN under "disguise"! If the VN authorities happen to read TMB, and if I were a worker planning going and staying there, I would shake in my boots for I know when the authorities connected the dots that they might incarcerate me or at best kick me out of the country so fast I'd miss that fast moving ship! I recall some foreign field workers telling about the conditions in which they labored, but more so about how the locals did so...not so much about so-called suffering workers. Partially, and expressly by Dallas Linimen (spelling!) was an attempt to teach the audience that they could live with less. Hard to know if anyone worship the workers. Could be some that make such a claim did worship them or had parents and grandparents that worshipped them.
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Deleted
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Vietnam
Jun 21, 2014 15:28:28 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 15:28:28 GMT -5
When workers return to their homeland from foreign field labors they seem to need to make their experiences to be so absolutely trialsome and people hardships! This telling to their homeland friends and workers that the gospel goes in disguise in VN is a lie, but they tell it to give themselves a greatness before their homeland folks...it gives the foreign field workers a special place even above that of homeland workers. They are worshipped highly and made over much......I saw this many years ago amongst some folks my own age as they went into foreign field workerships, they came home and even in the home they grew up in, they were placed on pedestals and worshipped as if what they did, no body else could do. Also a relative who was in the work said to me one day that they were the "only" one in the whole family that ever went into the work. Well, as time brings all truths out, there was some manipulations from that same person to keep it that they were the "only" one in the whole family. They hold themselves to a works-based salvation, but at the same time they cancel it all out with such human pride! That troubles me greatly. And yes, I have participated in such when in the 2x2 esp. when a teenager. People want to deny they worship the workers, but they just need to sit back and look at this particular thing for it is undisputable how they respond to these poor workers who have had to work under such awful conditions to meek out a convert here and there....as in VN under "disguise"! If the VN authorities happen to read TMB, and if I were a worker planning going and staying there, I would shake in my boots for I know when the authorities connected the dots that they might incarcerate me or at best kick me out of the country so fast I'd miss that fast moving ship! I recall some foreign field workers telling about the conditions in which they labored, but more so about how the locals did so...not so much about so-called suffering workers. Partially, and expressly by Dallas Linimen (spelling!) was an attempt to teach the audience that they could live with less. Hard to know if anyone worship the workers. Could be some that make such a claim did worship them or had parents and grandparents that worshipped them. i don't recall anyone worshipping the workers but i do know quite a few that held them in awe...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 16:43:14 GMT -5
I recall some foreign field workers telling about the conditions in which they labored, but more so about how the locals did so...not so much about so-called suffering workers. Partially, and expressly by Dallas Linimen (spelling!) was an attempt to teach the audience that they could live with less. Hard to know if anyone worship the workers. Could be some that make such a claim did worship them or had parents and grandparents that worshipped them. i don't recall anyone worshipping the workers but i do know quite a few that held them in awe... I think that's what most people mean when they use the word "worship". They really aren't referring to the workers as deities to bow down to.....they are just referring to people giving workers an unwarranted level of awe and authority over them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 18:12:19 GMT -5
Didn't a lot of workers switch over to the 3 month visitor visa, then step over to Cambodia or Laos, get another 3 month visitor visa, and so on? It's one thing to go in as an ESL teacher and do the teaching. It's another thing to claim you are a tourist when you actually consider yourself a resident preacher. The foreigners should have gone in their as visitors once in awhile and get out like they did in the past.... They should have Waited until VN open up for foreigners to preach freely then they can come in as preachers of the gospel. The native workers were doing really good without the help from foreigners! If it ain't broken don't try to fix it.I think it's fine for foreign workers to pass through there on a tourist visa. However, I agree with you that moving in as a long term resident preacher on a tourist visa isn't right. They didn't help much anyway. They attracted people who were attracted to successful-looking Westerners which doesn't bode well for the future.
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