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May 23, 2013 23:35:29 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2013 23:35:29 GMT -5
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May 23, 2013 23:41:16 GMT -5
Post by Sylvestra on May 23, 2013 23:41:16 GMT -5
Oh dear! Not again! My heart breaks for these people and though I do not know them, they are in my prayers!
E
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May 24, 2013 0:11:30 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on May 24, 2013 0:11:30 GMT -5
Link to typed copy of handwritten letter to Edgar that I posted below: professing.proboards.com/post/531962/threadThis is what I have been told... Most of the foreign workers in VN are from Western Canada, and Western Canada has developed the reputation in recent years of turning out the strictest authoritarian workers when it comes to enforcing total obedience to the ministry. VN began opening up for foreigners again some years ago. Even though the two native Vietnamese brothers Chau and Hoa had continued preaching there alone for MANY years of persecution and hardship -- and had not only kept the church together but saw it grow and flourish in a great way -- when foreign workers came back in, they immediately seemed to take over all the responsibility for planning and guiding. Both of the older Vietnamese brothers have had lots of trips abroad in recent years and seemed to receive a lot of appreciation. One of the fellowships historic weaknesses is that only rarely in non-English speaking countries have the local workers had much of a leadership role. There are a number of younger Vietnamese workers now. Evidently there has been quite a division there in Vietnam. Seems the Vietnamese brother workers, Chau and Hoa, found it difficult to settle in a field with a companion and not consider the whole country their 'field' (as it was for so many years), traveling wherever they wished without working in collaboration with the others. Sounds like a bit of insensitivity to the way the work had evolved and grown during the absence of foreigners, and perhaps a bit of authoritarianism to try to bring them back in line with practice elsewhere. Anyway, H. especially would not stay in his assigned field with his assigned companion, but would travel as he felt moved to visit friends in other areas. It sounds like finally Chau and Hoa were asked if they would be willing to go work in neighboring countries for a while, likely to give them more exposure to the "conventional" way of doing things. Chau agreed to this, and is elsewhere. (Cambodia, maybe?) Hoa did not, and has been working on his own since them. One of the oldest elders there and the first to profess there has children and grandchildren living in NE America. Mr. B has sided with Hoa, and they and some others have separated from the main body of friends and workers. At least that was the situation back in August, 2012.
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May 24, 2013 7:32:01 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 7:32:01 GMT -5
I understand that the workers are operating in Vietnam illegally. Since around 2006, Vietnam has had a constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion. However, along with that guarantee, religious groups operating in Vietnam are required to register with the authorities. The authorities have in particular reached out to home based religious groups to bring them into compliance with the law. However, the workers had refused to comply with the law. If you attend a meeting in Vietnam with other foreigners, you may be asked to split up after meeting and go different directions before meeting up again in order to escape detection.
In addition, I would expect that the visas of all foreign workers state a false reason for being in the country, although I can't confirm that. If they are operating surreptitiously as a religious group, they are not likely to state their true purpose for being in the country.
Vietnam does not fall into the US category of "countries of concern" for religious freedom. The State Department has particularly noted that conditions continue to improve there. The real problem in Vietnam is not religious freedom, but political freedom. The government doesn't really care about what your beliefs are, they fret about groups congregating, then forming political movements. As long as a group is open and honest about what they are doing, and don't engage in political activism, they are generally regarded as safe from government persecution. The F&Ws are certainly no threat to the government as they generally eschew all political activity except the politics within their own organization.
I don't know what excuse the workers are using for violating the law. At one time it could be justified by standing up against an unjust law of religious curtailment. Today, that reason does not exist so the only excuse the workers would have would be the old "we are not an organization" excuse regardless of how organized it is. This case reported to Edgar is proof positive that there is a 2x2 organized religion in Vietnam, when workers are being forced to stick within a designated field.
Perhaps Nathan can contribute to this. When were you last in Vietnam? Do you know why they are not registering as the law requires? What are the foreign workers stating on their visas for purpose of being in the country?
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May 24, 2013 7:49:53 GMT -5
Post by lazarus66 on May 24, 2013 7:49:53 GMT -5
I have a friend that was in VN and the emails I got from him were very cautious to mention anything about religion. I see that is a letter, but I know that there was much fear about anyone finding out about what was going on there. I have not heard from my friend for a while. He went there to "teach English" to the people, and help the workers. I may send him an email and see if he is still there. They would write in a type of code in emails, such as "a young man made a wise choice today". I will see what I can find out.
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Post by Persona non grata on May 24, 2013 7:53:58 GMT -5
Bullying of this sort really angers me. My sympathy, hopes and prayers are with those in Vietnam.
The "official worker policy" is to insert native overseers as soon as possible however in practice it seems that imperial forces have a hard time relinquishing power.
This kind of bullying is normally a result of a ministry corrupted by power. What they fail to see is that enforcing unity of form in fact hinders unity of Spirit.
There is a very good reason a ministry ought to be poor: money brings power (the means to control), and power corrupts.
A poor ministry promotes love and sacrifice, a wealthy ministry soon turns servants into masters and dictators. Of course some of the blame lies with those of us who have allowed a ministry to become wealthy in material ways but that's a whole other topic.
Again, thoughts and prayers for our Vietnamese brethren.
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Post by sacerdotal on May 24, 2013 8:01:17 GMT -5
This case, along with the doctrine of "fields" demonstrates a falseness of one of the most bragged about properties of the 2x2s- it is the same the world over because of the unity of the Spirit. Baloney.
It is the same the world over because of the authoritative management style of the white men that preach their doctrine and the enforce their religious concepts via strong arm tactics.
If the Spirit was the same in the fellowship the "world over" then why would there need to be the concept of fields? Why should there be the concern of one worker visiting folks in another field- does this confuse the Holy Spirit? Did the worker that went into another field suddenly quit being led by the Holy Spirit once he crossed the "field" line? Did his preaching or message suddenly become non-Spirit led once he crossed the "field" line?
Why is it that there are usually white men setup as overseers in South America? Are South Americans less spirit led or wise? The reason is plain to see- to maintain the illusion of the "same the world over" they have to have men in place that are strong enough to maintain the illusion. There is nothing spiritual about it.
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May 24, 2013 8:02:17 GMT -5
Post by sacerdotal on May 24, 2013 8:02:17 GMT -5
Bullying of this sort really angers me. My sympathy, hopes and prayers are with those in Vietnam. The "official worker policy" is to insert native overseers as soon as possible however in practice it seems that imperial forces have a hard time relinquishing power. This kind of bullying is normally a result of a ministry corrupted by power. What they fail to see is that enforcing unity of form in fact hinders unity of Spirit. There is a very good reason a ministry ought to be poor: money brings power (the means to control), and power corrupts. A poor ministry promotes love and sacrifice, a wealthy ministry soon turns servants into masters and dictators. Of course some of the blame lies with those of us who have allowed a ministry to become wealthy in material ways but that's a whole other topic. Again, thoughts and prayers for our Vietnamese brethren. Amen.
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May 24, 2013 8:03:10 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 8:03:10 GMT -5
Thanks Laz. And now you know the real reason your friend speaks in code. It is not religious persecution that is the fear anymore, it is to evade detection of the law for registering religious groups.
VN is a beautiful country with beautiful people. Open religion, particularly Buddhism, flourishes there. There is a surprising limited amount of anti-Americanism, even in the North.
One of the worries there about Christianity is that it symbolizes a century of perceived oppression from the French. After a long long war to expel the French from VN and freedom was gained, the Americans stepped in a year or two later....in the 1950's, supporting a non-Communist regime, effectively taking the place of France, the perceived oppressor. So the West and Christianity have not served Vietnam very well. This is how local Vietnamese view the history (obviously a different story than the West tells).
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May 24, 2013 8:10:45 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 8:10:45 GMT -5
Bullying of this sort really angers me. My sympathy, hopes and prayers are with those in Vietnam. The "official worker policy" is to insert native overseers as soon as possible however in practice it seems that imperial forces have a hard time relinquishing power. This kind of bullying is normally a result of a ministry corrupted by power. What they fail to see is that enforcing unity of form in fact hinders unity of Spirit. There is a very good reason a ministry ought to be poor: money brings power (the means to control), and power corrupts. A poor ministry promotes love and sacrifice, a wealthy ministry soon turns servants into masters and dictators. Of course some of the blame lies with those of us who have allowed a ministry to become wealthy in material ways but that's a whole other topic. Again, thoughts and prayers for our Vietnamese brethren. I believe Cherie's report of draconian bully workers in VN is accurate. We had a worker on home visit at convention not long ago. He told the young people not to bother coming to VN to visit if they are going to dress like they do in Canada. He talked about all his hard work to get the friends in VN to look godly and he didn't want Canadian young people ruining all his "hard work". "Make me proud of you when you come over here". This gives you a good idea of what's going on over there. The weird thing is that in Vietnam, a young woman with a traditional professing hairdo would not look out of place. While that hairdo is not a majority over there, it is not an oddity either, so one wonders about the "hard work" of the workers there. Nor is wearing skirts an oddity....it is probably the majority of women there who wear modest skirts......although the "hard work" of this worker was probably to convince his charges to lower their hems an inch or two.
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May 24, 2013 10:20:27 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on May 24, 2013 10:20:27 GMT -5
The traditional Vietnamese clothing style for women is quite modest. I had a Vietnamese doll brought back to USA by an American soldier. The doll wore the ao dai - a floor length long dress slit up the side to the waist, with slacks under it. The ao dai dress style is quite modest!
From Wiki: The áo dài is a Vietnamese national costume, now most commonly worn by women. In its current form, it is a tight-fitting silk tunic worn over pantaloons. Áo classifies the item as a piece of clothing. Dài means "long".
Probably some of the younger generation are wearing western clothing styles...
Wonder if the workers got them away from wearing the traditional clothing bcs it involved slacks?
What are the names of some of the American workers in Vietnam? In the 1960's there was a man there who some of the US Army servicemen met. I think his name was Fred something...? And I believe Phyllis Munn was there.
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May 24, 2013 10:49:54 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on May 24, 2013 10:49:54 GMT -5
Typed version of handwritten letter Edgar posted in his first post on this thread above: LINK: www.themasseys.net/Vietnamn.jpg
(Address removed for security reasons) Nguyen Huu Bau Ma Thi Nghi HCMC, Vietnam May 24, 2013 Hello Dear Uncle Edgar Massay How are you and your family? Surely that you don’t know me. I’ll introduce myself later but I know you well, just for your emails that you mentioned the story that Dale S. treated badly to Marg over 10 years ago. This happened the same 100% in Viet Nam today also by the Canadian workers! We’re facing, enduring! By chance my son-in-law, he found out in the internet those emails. So we did get comfort and key on as in Bible not by the guidance(?) of men or of organization! Perhaps we need your help… My name is Bau, 84 years old, my wife 81. Both of us professed same night in 1961. We’re the first couple in the way in Viet Nam. Our home also is the first place for fel. Meeting in Viet Nam times. We had 7 children, 11 grand children, 6 great grd. children. Four of my children opened their houses for fel. Meeting and bread & cup. I had had big privilege to meet thousand friends, hundred workers in 9 countries, such as: London, Paris, Australia, USA…I used to send letter emails to 40-50 ones in 18 lands each time…We do enjoy so so much in God’s Family. How wonderful it is! BUT! How sad to say! Just in 2009 the Canadian workers such as Morris G., Darrel T. including Dale S. they began to do somethings that not guide by the Spirit of God. I can say, it make the situation become worse and worse! They themselves change and add many things more seriously than in Alberta!!! We spoke up to show disagree…but nothing better! We need your help, your idea… I’ll write more for the next, Hope to read from you soon. I close here with all the best to you… Yours in His love (signed by Mr. Bau)
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Post by sacerdotal on May 24, 2013 11:17:15 GMT -5
Bullying of this sort really angers me. My sympathy, hopes and prayers are with those in Vietnam. The "official worker policy" is to insert native overseers as soon as possible however in practice it seems that imperial forces have a hard time relinquishing power. This kind of bullying is normally a result of a ministry corrupted by power. What they fail to see is that enforcing unity of form in fact hinders unity of Spirit. There is a very good reason a ministry ought to be poor: money brings power (the means to control), and power corrupts. A poor ministry promotes love and sacrifice, a wealthy ministry soon turns servants into masters and dictators. Of course some of the blame lies with those of us who have allowed a ministry to become wealthy in material ways but that's a whole other topic. Again, thoughts and prayers for our Vietnamese brethren. I have been writing about the bullying for quite awhile. Ever since my eyes were opened to the practice. I agree with you, part of the issue is that the ministry is evidently loaded with money. Money does indeed corrupt. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Post by sacerdotal on May 24, 2013 11:23:14 GMT -5
Bullying of this sort really angers me. My sympathy, hopes and prayers are with those in Vietnam. The "official worker policy" is to insert native overseers as soon as possible however in practice it seems that imperial forces have a hard time relinquishing power. This kind of bullying is normally a result of a ministry corrupted by power. What they fail to see is that enforcing unity of form in fact hinders unity of Spirit. There is a very good reason a ministry ought to be poor: money brings power (the means to control), and power corrupts. A poor ministry promotes love and sacrifice, a wealthy ministry soon turns servants into masters and dictators. Of course some of the blame lies with those of us who have allowed a ministry to become wealthy in material ways but that's a whole other topic. Again, thoughts and prayers for our Vietnamese brethren. I believe Cherie's report of draconian bully workers in VN is accurate. We had a worker on home visit at convention not long ago. He told the young people not to bother coming to VN to visit if they are going to dress like they do in Canada. He talked about all his hard work to get the friends in VN to look godly and he didn't want Canadian young people ruining all his "hard work". "Make me proud of you when you come over here". This gives you a good idea of what's going on over there. The weird thing is that in Vietnam, a young woman with a traditional professing hairdo would not look out of place. While that hairdo is not a majority over there, it is not an oddity either, so one wonders about the "hard work" of the workers there. Nor is wearing skirts an oddity....it is probably the majority of women there who wear modest skirts......although the "hard work" of this worker was probably to convince his charges to lower their hems an inch or two. You are kidding, right? Only a Pharisee would say something like the worker that visited you said. That is unbelievable. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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May 24, 2013 11:47:34 GMT -5
Post by jondough on May 24, 2013 11:47:34 GMT -5
I really feel for these poor people...
As of now, we do not know any of the specifics. It would sure be nice to know the specific details on what changes the Canadian workers are trying to make. We do know that they have been splitting up fields, and assigning workers to fields, rather than doing the more itinerant style as we read in Act. Letting the Spirit lead the workers where it may lead them, as they have been doing.
Other than that...who knows....it could be anything. The way they conduct meetings. Maybe who leads the meetings. Maybe even Doctrine. Maybe they believe in the Trinity as Nathan does. Most Western workers that I know see the Trinitarian Doctrine as false now (please no more on the Trinity on this thread). It could be a whole number of things of which we have no idea. Given their age, I doubt that dress would be a big issue.
Maybe we will get more specifics in his next letter.
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May 24, 2013 12:02:32 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on May 24, 2013 12:02:32 GMT -5
I think I have "cleaned up" everything I wrote above so it doesnt point to any particular person
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May 24, 2013 14:10:39 GMT -5
Post by jondough on May 24, 2013 14:10:39 GMT -5
I really feel for these poor people... As of now, we do not know any of the specifics. It would sure be nice to know the specific details on what changes the Canadian workers are trying to make. We do know that they have been splitting up fields, and assigning workers to fields, rather than doing the more itinerant style as we read in Act. Letting the Spirit lead the workers where it may lead them, as they have been doing. Other than that...who knows....it could be anything. The way they conduct meetings. Maybe who leads the meetings. Maybe even Doctrine. Maybe they believe in the Trinity as Nathan does. Most Western workers that I know see the Trinitarian Doctrine as false now (please no more on the Trinity on this thread). It could be a whole number of things of which we have no idea. Given their age, I doubt that dress would be a big issue. Maybe we will get more specifics in his next letter. An ex-2x2 asked C. one of the native brothers, if he believes in the Trinity doctrine when he was visiting here in the States and he said YES!. I asked him to look at my website/message board on the Trinity.... and C. agrees. JD, you didn't hear Leo Stancliff studied/sermon on Jesus is Yeshua God in the Old Testament when he was in your field? Yes, It would be nice to hear what kind of things the new administration have added to make so much chaos, divisions over there.I have no doubt that Leo believed in the Trinity if you say he did. I wouldn't know as I never heard him speak or talk one way or the other. I've said before that Leo was not a "systems" worker. This is why he never became an overseer. He had no desire to become part of the hierarchy. He just LOVED to teach, and share his knowledge of the bible. He was a VERY Godly man, and I have nothing but respect and good to say about him. The workers TODAY do not believe in the Trinity doctrine. If you disagree, please name me one of TODAY that does.
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May 24, 2013 14:12:04 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 14:12:04 GMT -5
The traditional Vietnamese clothing style for women is quite modest. I had a Vietnamese doll brought back to USA by an American soldier. The doll wore the ao dai - a floor length long dress slit up the side to the waist, with slacks under it. The ao dai dress style is quite modest! From Wiki: The áo dài is a Vietnamese national costume, now most commonly worn by women. In its current form, it is a tight-fitting silk tunic worn over pantaloons. Áo classifies the item as a piece of clothing. Dài means "long". Probably some of the younger generation are wearing western clothing styles... Wonder if the workers got them away from wearing the traditional clothing bcs it involved slacks? What are the names of some of the American workers in Vietnam? In the 1960's there was a man there who some of the US Army servicemen met. I think his name was Fred something...? And I believe Phyllis Munn was there. A current urban scene in HCMC or Hanoi of under-40 people (which is most of them)looks like most Western cities. Traditional dress is rarely seen in those settings. Even in more rural settings, the under-40 group dress in Western styles. Where you see the more traditional costume is in cultural or formal (like some weddings) activities or with much older people, mostly in rural areas. Most popular among urban women is black skirts around knee height or just over for more business-oriented women, and those who work in markets wear blue jeans or black slacks quite commonly. The cultural goal of most younger (under 40) Vietnamese is to be more like Europeans (and specifically not like Americans).
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May 24, 2013 14:22:26 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 14:22:26 GMT -5
The traditional Vietnamese clothing style for women is quite modest. I had a Vietnamese doll brought back to USA by an American soldier. The doll wore the ao dai - a floor length long dress slit up the side to the waist, with slacks under it. From Wiki: The áo dài is a Vietnamese national costume, now most commonly worn by women. In its current form, it is a tight-fitting silk tunic worn over pantaloons. Áo classifies the item as a piece of clothing. Dài means "long". Probably some of the younger generation are wearing western clothing styles... Wonder if the workers got them away from wearing the traditional clothing bcs it involved slacks? The overseer in Oregon Willie Jamemison, who had labored in China/Asia told the workers went overseas to labor. Do NOT try to make the natives to become Americans but Christians. Try to Respect their customs, culture. A wise man. In Asia skirts consider to be very immodest to the natives, it shows too MUCH skin and immodest when riding the motor bikes that is the normal transportation, most people do not own cars over there. The younger natives women do wear skirts sometimes to show they're a generation of new breed.The vast majority of urban women wear skirts, even those who ride the motorbikes. A day in downtown HCMC would not feel substantially different than a day in downtown San Francisco. Hanoi is headed rapidly in that direction, but is a bit behind in the modernization process.
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May 24, 2013 14:27:08 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 14:27:08 GMT -5
Wonder if the workers got them away from wearing the traditional clothing bcs it involved slacks? A current urban scene in HMC or Hanoi of under-40 people (which is most of them)looks like most Western cities. Traditional dress is rarely seen in those settings. Even in more rural settings, the under-40 group dress in Western styles. Where you see the more traditional costume is in cultural or formal (like some weddings) activities or with much older people, mostly in rural areas. Most popular among urban women is black skirts around knee height or just over for more business-oriented women, and those who work in markets wear blue jeans or black slacks quite commonly. The cultural goal of most younger (under 40) Vietnamese is to be more like Europeans (and specifically not like Americans). I've seen pictures of some professing people from Vietnam, and girls/younger women were wearing traditional pants, yes, riding motorcycles. I wondered too if workers tried to stop wearing of traditional pants? How sad...
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May 24, 2013 14:27:15 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 14:27:15 GMT -5
Good point Nate - I didnt realize the danger. However, after I've done some more reading, I see that there could be some adverse effects. I've deleted my post above and I've taken his name off the letter I retyped. Could you also edit your post and remove my questionnaire from it? Thanx again! CK Most of the human rights abuses in Vietnam are against activists, those who are advocating state dissent. Otherwise, religion occurs openly and relatively freely. The main danger for the workers would be that they are not legally registered as a group and the foreign workers are not likely declaring the true reason for their presence in Vietnam. One Canadian worker was recently moved into Laos after encountering some undeclared difficulties in Vietnam.
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May 24, 2013 14:31:11 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 14:31:11 GMT -5
A current urban scene in HMC or Hanoi of under-40 people (which is most of them)looks like most Western cities. Traditional dress is rarely seen in those settings. Even in more rural settings, the under-40 group dress in Western styles. Where you see the more traditional costume is in cultural or formal (like some weddings) activities or with much older people, mostly in rural areas. Most popular among urban women is black skirts around knee height or just over for more business-oriented women, and those who work in markets wear blue jeans or black slacks quite commonly. The cultural goal of most younger (under 40) Vietnamese is to be more like Europeans (and specifically not like Americans). I've seen pictures of some professing people from Vietnam, and girls/younger women were wearing traditional pants, yes, riding motorcycles. I wondered too if workers tried to stop wearing of traditional pants? How sad... I'm not certain of what this group of workers have tried to impose on professing women, but in Hanoi motorbikes are extremely common transportation. Pants are by far the most practical and modest way to use that form of transportation. Let's hope they weren't trying to enforce dresses, even long ones, on the professing women.
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May 24, 2013 14:33:25 GMT -5
Post by jondough on May 24, 2013 14:33:25 GMT -5
I have no doubt that Leo believed in the Trinity if you say he did. I wouldn't know as I never heard him speak or talk one way or the other. I've said before that Leo was not a "systems" worker. This is why he never became an overseer. He had no desire to become part of the hierarchy. He just LOVED to teach, and share his knowledge of the bible. He was a VERY Godly man, and I have nothing but respect and good to say about him. The workers TODAY do not believe in the Trinity doctrine. If you disagree, please name me one of TODAY that does. Here are two names of Washington state: Overseer Mark Huddle Jesus is 100% God and Man mentioned this in a newspaper interview. 2) Evert Swanson the senior worker spoke Jesus the I AM that I AM God Almighty in the Old Testament in 2012 sermon.Next time I see them, I'll ask them. I'll let you know what the response is. I don't even bring it up with others. Its kind of a touchy subject. Kind of like you are stirring the pot. I can kind of understand why tho, look what happens when you bring it up on this board.
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May 24, 2013 15:08:15 GMT -5
Post by sacerdotal on May 24, 2013 15:08:15 GMT -5
I've seen pictures of some professing people from Vietnam, and girls/younger women were wearing traditional pants, yes, riding motorcycles. I wondered too if workers tried to stop wearing of traditional pants? How sad... I'm not certain of what this group of workers have tried to impose on professing women, but in Hanoi motorbikes are extremely common transportation. Pants are by far the most practical and modest way to use that form of transportation. Let's hope they weren't trying to enforce dresses, even long ones, on the professing women. If this controversy is about a dress code for women, then as penance, those men workers that are stirring the pot need to be made to wear rayon, knee length dresses, with nude panty hose and heeled shoes.
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May 24, 2013 15:15:49 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on May 24, 2013 15:15:49 GMT -5
Right on sac - AND also grow their hair long as it will grow and always wear it pinned up on their head.
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May 24, 2013 15:40:35 GMT -5
Post by snow on May 24, 2013 15:40:35 GMT -5
This is what I have been told... Most of the foreign workers in VN are from Western Canada, and Western Canada has developed the reputation in recent years of turning out the strictest authoritarian workers when it comes to enforcing total obedience to the ministry. VN began opening up for foreigners again some years ago. Even though the two native Vietnamese brothers C. and H. had continued preaching there alone for MANY years of persecution and hardship -- and had not only kept the church together but saw it grow and flourish in a great way -- when foreign workers came back in, they immediately seemed to take over all the responsibility for planning and guiding. Both of the older Vietnamese brothers have had lots of trips abroad in recent years and seemed to receive a lot of appreciation. One of the fellowships historic weaknesses is that only rarely in non-English speaking countries have the local workers had much of a leadership role. There are a number of younger Vietnamese workers now. Evidently there has been quite a division there in Vietnam. Seems the Vietnamese brother workers, C. and H., found it difficult to settle in a field with a companion and not consider the whole country their 'field' (as it was for so many years), traveling wherever they wished without working in collaboration with the others. Sounds like a bit of insensitivity to the way the work had evolved and grown during the absence of foreigners, and perhaps a bit of authoritarianism to try to bring them back in line with practice elsewhere. Anyway, H. especially would not stay in his assigned field with his assigned companion, but would travel as he felt moved to visit friends in other areas. It sounds like finally C. and H. were asked if they would be willing to go work in neighboring countries for a while, likely to give them more exposure to the "conventional" way of doing things. C. agreed to this, and is elsewhere. (Cambodia, maybe?) H. did not, and has been working on his own since them. One of the oldest elders there and the first to profess there has children and grandchildren living in NE America. Mr.B has sided with H., and they and some others have separated from the main body of friends and workers. At least that was the situation back in August, 2012. Aren't the links to the actual letter by yourself and Edgar a threat to them also? It mentions names too? I have deleted it from this quote so that it doesn't show up. Just a thought.
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May 24, 2013 15:55:02 GMT -5
Post by ts on May 24, 2013 15:55:02 GMT -5
Whether or not Dale Shultz and other abusive overseers believe that Jesus is God or not will not stop them from abusing people. And the people that they are abusing will not care one fig whether they believe that Jesus is God or not.
Believing or not believing that doctrine does not bring right ruling and peace.
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May 24, 2013 16:13:01 GMT -5
Post by fixit on May 24, 2013 16:13:01 GMT -5
Link to typed copy of handwritten letter to Edgar that I posted below: professing.proboards.com/post/531962/threadThis is what I have been told... Most of the foreign workers in VN are from Western Canada, and Western Canada has developed the reputation in recent years of turning out the strictest authoritarian workers when it comes to enforcing total obedience to the ministry. VN began opening up for foreigners again some years ago. Even though the two native Vietnamese brothers C. and H. had continued preaching there alone for MANY years of persecution and hardship -- and had not only kept the church together but saw it grow and flourish in a great way -- when foreign workers came back in, they immediately seemed to take over all the responsibility for planning and guiding. Both of the older Vietnamese brothers have had lots of trips abroad in recent years and seemed to receive a lot of appreciation. One of the fellowships historic weaknesses is that only rarely in non-English speaking countries have the local workers had much of a leadership role. There are a number of younger Vietnamese workers now. Evidently there has been quite a division there in Vietnam. Seems the Vietnamese brother workers, C. and H., found it difficult to settle in a field with a companion and not consider the whole country their 'field' (as it was for so many years), traveling wherever they wished without working in collaboration with the others. Sounds like a bit of insensitivity to the way the work had evolved and grown during the absence of foreigners, and perhaps a bit of authoritarianism to try to bring them back in line with practice elsewhere. Anyway, H. especially would not stay in his assigned field with his assigned companion, but would travel as he felt moved to visit friends in other areas. It sounds like finally C. and H. were asked if they would be willing to go work in neighboring countries for a while, likely to give them more exposure to the "conventional" way of doing things. C. agreed to this, and is elsewhere. (Cambodia, maybe?) H. did not, and has been working on his own since them. One of the oldest elders there and the first to profess there has children and grandchildren living in NE America. Mr.B has sided with H., and they and some others have separated from the main body of friends and workers. At least that was the situation back in August, 2012. I feel especially for H, who worked so effectively under extremely difficult conditions after the foreign workers had fled from Communist control. Like Eddie Cooney before him, it would have been so hard to be pinned down to a field after being led by the Spirit for many years. Imagine how the apostle Paul would have coped if foreign preachers had confined him to a field! The unity god is pretty effective at quenching the Spirit.
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