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Jun 21, 2014 18:26:32 GMT -5
Post by Greg on Jun 21, 2014 18:26:32 GMT -5
i don't recall anyone worshipping the workers but i do know quite a few that held them in awe... I think that's what most people mean when they use the word "worship". They really aren't referring to the workers as deities to bow down to.....they are just referring to people giving workers an unwarranted level of awe and authority over them. I do not know if that is what is meant when some contend the workers are worshipped. I am inclined to think the accusers mean just that - worship. I think workers in general might by others be highly esteemed, well liked and loved, revered, in awe, and what-have-you. I agree with the authority part, but worship is so much more than that. I think worship is deliberately used as to cast a darker shadow over the fellowship in general. By the way, since this is about Viet Nam, I think the high esteem and reverence in general is suspect there now, and perhaps growing less in other places. The title/office "worker" likely does not carry automatic respect and esteem. Perhaps there is a leaning toward "esteem them for their work sake" instead of what seems to have been the norm "esteem them for their sacrifice and position sake".
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Jun 21, 2014 22:24:19 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 21, 2014 22:24:19 GMT -5
i don't recall anyone worshipping the workers but i do know quite a few that held them in awe... I think that's what most people mean when they use the word "worship". They really aren't referring to the workers as deities to bow down to.....they are just referring to people giving workers an unwarranted level of awe and authority over them. Precisely, thanks, CD!
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Vietnam
Jun 22, 2014 5:12:10 GMT -5
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Post by Greg on Jun 22, 2014 5:12:10 GMT -5
I think that's what most people mean when they use the word "worship". They really aren't referring to the workers as deities to bow down to.....they are just referring to people giving workers an unwarranted level of awe and authority over them. Precisely, thanks, CD! So, no worship. Thus when F&W claimed no worship of the workers, they were right. When others claimed the friends worshipped the workers, they were . . . um . . . w r o n g.
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Vietnam
Jun 22, 2014 8:06:17 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2014 8:06:17 GMT -5
So, no worship. Thus when F&W claimed no worship of the workers, they were right. When others claimed the friends worshipped the workers, they were . . . um . . . w r o n g. Not necessarily. Pick your definition first, then decide if it's worship or not. The usage of the word can be either right or wrong, depending on the particular meaning that is intended. Here is where it would not be worship: noun
the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity. "the worship of God" synonyms: reverence, veneration, adoration, glorification, glory, exaltation; More the acts or rites that make up a formal expression of reverence for a deity; a religious ceremony or ceremonies.
verb
1. show reverence and adoration for a deity; honor with religious rites. "the Maya built jungle pyramids to worship their gods" synonyms: revere, reverence, venerate, pay homage to, honor, adore, praise, pray to, glorify, exalt, extol; Here is where it would be correct: adoration or devotion comparable to religious homage, shown toward a person or principle.
treat (someone or something) with the reverence and adoration appropriate to a deity. "she adores her sons and they worship her"
"our society’s worship of teenagers" synonyms: admiration, adulation, idolization, lionization, hero worship
archaic honor given to someone in recognition of their merit.So yes, it is worship, but not worship as deities. It is worship as in having a similar attitude of adoration as you would have to a deity, but recognizing they are not deities. Using the phrase "worker worship" is appropriate as long as everyone understands the meaning being applied is the latter, not the former......and I think most people understand that.
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Jun 22, 2014 10:58:58 GMT -5
Post by Greg on Jun 22, 2014 10:58:58 GMT -5
So, no worship. Thus when F&W claimed no worship of the workers, they were right. When others claimed the friends worshipped the workers, they were . . . um . . . w r o n g. Not necessarily. Pick your definition first, then decide if it's worship or not. The usage of the word can be either right or wrong, depending on the particular meaning that is intended. Here is where it would not be worship: noun
the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity. "the worship of God" synonyms: reverence, veneration, adoration, glorification, glory, exaltation; More the acts or rites that make up a formal expression of reverence for a deity; a religious ceremony or ceremonies.
verb
1. show reverence and adoration for a deity; honor with religious rites. "the Maya built jungle pyramids to worship their gods" synonyms: revere, reverence, venerate, pay homage to, honor, adore, praise, pray to, glorify, exalt, extol; Here is where it would be correct: adoration or devotion comparable to religious homage, shown toward a person or principle.
treat (someone or something) with the reverence and adoration appropriate to a deity. "she adores her sons and they worship her"
"our society’s worship of teenagers" synonyms: admiration, adulation, idolization, lionization, hero worship
archaic honor given to someone in recognition of their merit.So yes, it is worship, but not worship as deities. It is worship as in having a similar attitude of adoration as you would have to a deity, but recognizing they are not deities. Using the phrase "worker worship" is appropriate as long as everyone understands the meaning being applied is the latter, not the former......and I think most people understand that. Okay. I think the "worship" claimers intend to insult and not define the situation objectively.
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Vietnam
Jun 22, 2014 11:00:00 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 22, 2014 11:00:00 GMT -5
So, no worship. Thus when F&W claimed no worship of the workers, they were right. When others claimed the friends worshipped the workers, they were . . . um . . . w r o n g. Greg! Have you never heard of someone putting someone else on a pedestal? And no, no one is wrong, neither those who claim they don't "worship" the workers NOR are those who claim the f&ws worship the workers! Think about it! The position that some workers receive in the minds of f&w's is an elevation far above that which is really sensible even when according to respecting their position in life.
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Jun 22, 2014 11:04:25 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 22, 2014 11:04:25 GMT -5
Not necessarily. Pick your definition first, then decide if it's worship or not. The usage of the word can be either right or wrong, depending on the particular meaning that is intended. Here is where it would not be worship: noun
the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity. "the worship of God" synonyms: reverence, veneration, adoration, glorification, glory, exaltation; More the acts or rites that make up a formal expression of reverence for a deity; a religious ceremony or ceremonies.
verb
1. show reverence and adoration for a deity; honor with religious rites. "the Maya built jungle pyramids to worship their gods" synonyms: revere, reverence, venerate, pay homage to, honor, adore, praise, pray to, glorify, exalt, extol; Here is where it would be correct: adoration or devotion comparable to religious homage, shown toward a person or principle.
treat (someone or something) with the reverence and adoration appropriate to a deity. "she adores her sons and they worship her"
"our society’s worship of teenagers" synonyms: admiration, adulation, idolization, lionization, hero worship
archaic honor given to someone in recognition of their merit.So yes, it is worship, but not worship as deities. It is worship as in having a similar attitude of adoration as you would have to a deity, but recognizing they are not deities. Using the phrase "worker worship" is appropriate as long as everyone understands the meaning being applied is the latter, not the former......and I think most people understand that. Okay. I think the "worship" claimers intend to insult and not define the situation objectively. Greg, I can only testify to my "intention" when I say friends worship some of the workers! I mean NO insult, I mean it as a real truth that I've experienced and also seen over and over again. Putting workers on the pedestal, IMO, is likely robbing those same workers of some of their rewards of deeds on Judgment Day, plus it tends to make some of them not what they should be! That I've seen and am seeing presently in "some" workers!! No insult meant, but all is truth!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2014 15:27:20 GMT -5
Not necessarily. Pick your definition first, then decide if it's worship or not. The usage of the word can be either right or wrong, depending on the particular meaning that is intended. Here is where it would not be worship: noun
the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity. "the worship of God" synonyms: reverence, veneration, adoration, glorification, glory, exaltation; More the acts or rites that make up a formal expression of reverence for a deity; a religious ceremony or ceremonies.
verb
1. show reverence and adoration for a deity; honor with religious rites. "the Maya built jungle pyramids to worship their gods" synonyms: revere, reverence, venerate, pay homage to, honor, adore, praise, pray to, glorify, exalt, extol; Here is where it would be correct: adoration or devotion comparable to religious homage, shown toward a person or principle.
treat (someone or something) with the reverence and adoration appropriate to a deity. "she adores her sons and they worship her"
"our society’s worship of teenagers" synonyms: admiration, adulation, idolization, lionization, hero worship
archaic honor given to someone in recognition of their merit.So yes, it is worship, but not worship as deities. It is worship as in having a similar attitude of adoration as you would have to a deity, but recognizing they are not deities. Using the phrase "worker worship" is appropriate as long as everyone understands the meaning being applied is the latter, not the former......and I think most people understand that. Okay. I think the "worship" claimers intend to insult and not define the situation objectively. There may be some intention to insult by some users, but I know I have used the phrase "worker worshipers" on numerous occasions in a general application with the intent of describing a phenomenon, not with the intent to insult although I would expect that if someone felt identified as a worker worshiper, they would feel insulted no matter how true it was. If anything though, I feel sorry for those who are into that because their reason and judgement is impaired because of it. It is a very real phenomenon that I have seen over and over all my life. It doesn't apply to all the friends, but it is remarkably visible among a minority core of the friends. I have also used the term "sycophants" as well to describe the same phenomenon, and that term has also been challenged by some people. I suppose maybe it's time to come up with a new term to describe the same thing but I can assure you that most of the existing alternative words and phrases for this will seem even more insulting!
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Vietnam
Jun 22, 2014 18:20:07 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jun 22, 2014 18:20:07 GMT -5
Here is where it would be correct: adoration or devotion comparable to religious homage, shown toward a person or principle.
treat (someone or something) with the reverence and adoration appropriate to a deity. "she adores her sons and they worship her"
"our society’s worship of teenagers" synonyms: admiration, adulation, idolization, lionization, hero worshipThat's an appropriate definition for the phenomenon being discussed.
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Jun 22, 2014 21:48:48 GMT -5
Post by snow on Jun 22, 2014 21:48:48 GMT -5
I think I could safely say my father worshiped the workers. They were absolutely esteemed in his eyes. I am glad I never had an issue with one that I needed to talk to him about, because I know he would have never believed me or would have thought I did something to deserve it.
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Post by mdm on Jun 23, 2014 13:45:46 GMT -5
If someone says that they "would never doubt" something spoken from the platform at a convention (even if it doesn't make sense to them, as it didn't in the case discussed), if a worker says from the platform that "we have heard not just the workers, but the voice of God," if workers speak of themselves as the "anointed ones" when their decisions are questioned, if people are reluctant to say what they really think in front of the workers, to disagree or to question them or have an honest discussion with them about controversial topics, I think it points to more than just healthy respect for the workers. If "worship" is not the right word, then something pretty close to it is. How about "reverence"(a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration)?
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Jun 23, 2014 14:15:45 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2014 14:15:45 GMT -5
If someone says that they "would never doubt" something spoken from the platform at a convention (even if it doesn't make sense to them, as it didn't in the case discussed), if a worker says from the platform that "we have heard not just the workers, but the voice of God," if workers speak of themselves as the "anointed ones" when their decisions are questioned, if people are reluctant to say what they really think in front of the workers, to disagree or to question them or have an honest discussion with them about controversial topics, I think it points to more than just healthy respect for the workers. If "worship" is not the right word, then something pretty close to it is. How about "reverence"(a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration)? Here are some dictionary synonyms: admiration, adulation, idolization, lionization, hero worship
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Post by snow on Jun 23, 2014 15:25:27 GMT -5
Idolization sounds close to me.
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Post by fixit on Jun 23, 2014 16:00:59 GMT -5
If someone says that they "would never doubt" something spoken from the platform at a convention (even if it doesn't make sense to them, as it didn't in the case discussed), if a worker says from the platform that "we have heard not just the workers, but the voice of God," if workers speak of themselves as the "anointed ones" when their decisions are questioned, if people are reluctant to say what they really think in front of the workers, to disagree or to question them or have an honest discussion with them about controversial topics, I think it points to more than just healthy respect for the workers. If "worship" is not the right word, then something pretty close to it is. How about "reverence"(a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration)? Ironically, the early workers tried so hard to avoid the veneration of the ministry in the established churches. Alfred Magowan wrote:
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Post by mdm on Jun 24, 2014 3:20:35 GMT -5
If someone says that they "would never doubt" something spoken from the platform at a convention (even if it doesn't make sense to them, as it didn't in the case discussed), if a worker says from the platform that "we have heard not just the workers, but the voice of God," if workers speak of themselves as the "anointed ones" when their decisions are questioned, if people are reluctant to say what they really think in front of the workers, to disagree or to question them or have an honest discussion with them about controversial topics, I think it points to more than just healthy respect for the workers. If "worship" is not the right word, then something pretty close to it is. How about "reverence"(a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration)? Ironically, the early workers tried so hard to avoid the veneration of the ministry in the established churches. Alfred Magowan wrote: A worker who knew some of those first workers and how things had changed during the decades he spent in the work, told us that "we are getting too organized for our own good." He did not like losing the liberty of being lead by the spirit and being micromanaged by overseers while not having an opportunity to give his input in the decisions they were making for him. Another worker has told us that the reason why they don't want to openly discuss issues in the church - why there is no transparency - is that they fear they would lose the power they have. Once they tasted the power, they proved that power corrupts...
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Post by minhthanh on Jun 24, 2014 4:43:09 GMT -5
Ironically, the early workers tried so hard to avoid the veneration of the ministry in the established churches. Alfred Magowan wrote: A worker who knew some of those first workers and how things had changed during the decades he spent in the work, told us that "we are getting too organized for our own good." He did not like losing the liberty of being lead by the spirit and being micromanaged by overseers while not having an opportunity to give his input in the decisions they were making for him. Another worker has told us that the reason why they don't want to openly discuss issues in the church - why there is no transparency - is that they fear they would lose the power they have. Once they tasted the power, they proved that power corrupts... Amen with Maja... the thing you wrote very true to what happened in Vietnam. The senior local workers lost their liberty to be led by Holy Spirit, bound in individual minute rules of overseers... I AMEN with your thoughts...I'm glad many friends in other places having the same perception and feeling as mine.
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Post by mdm on Jun 24, 2014 8:45:38 GMT -5
A worker who knew some of those first workers and how things had changed during the decades he spent in the work, told us that "we are getting too organized for our own good." He did not like losing the liberty of being lead by the spirit and being micromanaged by overseers while not having an opportunity to give his input in the decisions they were making for him. Another worker has told us that the reason why they don't want to openly discuss issues in the church - why there is no transparency - is that they fear they would lose the power they have. Once they tasted the power, they proved that power corrupts... Amen with Maja... the thing you wrote very true to what happened in Vietnam. The senior local workers lost their liberty to be led by Holy Spirit, bound in individual minute rules of overseers... I AMEN with your thoughts...I'm glad many friends in other places having the same perception and feeling as mine. Yes, it has changed world-wide. The above mentioned workers spoke from their experiences in the work in the US, Europe, NZ and Australia. Younger workers don't know what it used to be like, so they take the way the ministry is run and organized now as the "perfect" and the only workable way.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 24, 2014 9:47:18 GMT -5
Amen with Maja... the thing you wrote very true to what happened in Vietnam. The senior local workers lost their liberty to be led by Holy Spirit, bound in individual minute rules of overseers... I AMEN with your thoughts...I'm glad many friends in other places having the same perception and feeling as mine. Yes, it has changed world-wide. The above mentioned workers spoke from their experiences in the work in the US, Europe, NZ and Australia. Younger workers don't know what it used to be like, so they take the way the ministry is run and organized now as the "perfect" and the only workable way. The saddest part of it all is that both brother and sister workers who are the "older" and "ruling" workers had the privilege of at least knowing how true evangelical work should be...but then when finding the "power" that became them because of the veneration of the friends all around the world, this power has polluted them. I know one older lady who used to be a worker and even to this day she is able to manipulate things pretty much to suit her ideas and when she can't then she is sourfaced and anti-social with those that are involved in that which she cannot manipulate! Makes everyone else miserable with her long face! She learned her power and she fights to keep it....strange that eh?
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Post by minhthanh on Jun 26, 2014 6:12:02 GMT -5
Yes, it has changed world-wide. The above mentioned workers spoke from their experiences in the work in the US, Europe, NZ and Australia. Younger workers don't know what it used to be like, so they take the way the ministry is run and organized now as the "perfect" and the only workable way. The saddest part of it all is that both brother and sister workers who are the "older" and "ruling" workers had the privilege of at least knowing how true evangelical work should be...but then when finding the "power" that became them because of the veneration of the friends all around the world, this power has polluted them. I know one older lady who used to be a worker and even to this day she is able to manipulate things pretty much to suit her ideas and when she can't then she is sourfaced and anti-social with those that are involved in that which she cannot manipulate! Makes everyone else miserable with her long face! She learned her power and she fights to keep it....strange that eh? When I was a child, in order to explain for me to understand the perfect way of God, uncle Châu put his hands together and said: “ Jesus Christ yesterday, today until forever never changes. The way of God is the same, how the apostles were sent in the old time and now the servants of God are sent the same way… Strangely, nowadays everything has changed in many places in the world…so how it is called the true way!!! Worse than that when they have more power, more formality, more properties…many workers lose many good qualities…sadly…
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Jun 26, 2014 13:13:49 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2014 13:13:49 GMT -5
My father expressly taught/told me that if workers directed something, anything, the friends under their jurisdiction were to OBEY that, and the worker answered for it, not the friend. No matter what! That teaching, instruction did teach me "worker worship." I was taught they spoke for God Himself, and the same reverence I had for God was to apply to workers and their words. Now when I went into the work, I knew and as a younger worker was frequently told by certain older ones, that as such, I did not qualify for such status. However I knew not one single such "older" worker who taught/thought that they did not qualify as I did not qualify. Somehow I used to wonder how if someday, I would qualify for such consideration and status, and the enemy of my soul tried to get me to focus on the loss of ever achieving such a status if I were to quit/give up that work.
Older workers do not as a whole teach people they are not to be thought of nor considered as speaking for God! Rather just the reverse. Now I hear they are not worshipped as such. Wonderful! Now they need to be taught/told that. Perhaps they are, I am not privy to such things any longer.
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Post by minhthanh on Jun 30, 2014 8:45:45 GMT -5
Today I want to share with you some pictures about our visit and fellowship meeting with the elderly lady’s family. She has professed about 50 years and now she is over 90 years old. She is living with her daughter, whose husband is an elder in Long Thanh Church. They are still in 2x2 system but don’t agree with their work and long for meeting with uncle Hoa and fellowship with golden friends.
Yesterday we had wonderful time in visiting and fellowship. We felt the grace God giving us abundantly and the guiding and keeping of God the same as in the old time with pillar of cloud and pillar of fire. It was raining through all day but when friends traveled the rain stopped, when we were in the house, it rained heavily. Mrs Quang (the elderly lady)was very happy when friends coming visitting her. She liked to sit with friends although her daughter many times took her to bed to rest. Before leaving here we took a picture of the friends On the way back to Saigon, we called at Mr. Sanh’s who still in 2x2, 5 years ago he had a stroke, now he is in wheelchair. He was happy because the golden friends didn’t forget and ignore him.
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Jun 30, 2014 10:21:53 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 30, 2014 10:21:53 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing the wonderful pictures...looks like the day was special to all!
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Post by fixit on Jun 30, 2014 16:05:11 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing MT.
It's good to see that the man-made barriers are not working.
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Post by minhthanh on Jul 1, 2014 5:52:49 GMT -5
It’s true, Fixit… Sometimes we talk to each other that we should thank to the overseer causing the mess in Viet Nam, which made friends to be closer to God, to plead God earnestly. They have the need to communicate with God more and feel the love and unity among friends. I believe that God will please when we encourage each other to keep faith in Jesus, to know more our Lord and our God and behave sincerely. We were happy for everybody cooperated to have a good visit. F&W met each other joyfully from 3 different distant places…
Working together side by side…
Not enough chairs so the children sitting on the mat with their mothers. The children were well behaved, they kept quiet and listening throughout two sessions.
Uncle Hoa preaching…
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 4:11:13 GMT -5
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Jul 5, 2014 17:21:16 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 17:21:16 GMT -5
Thank you, Edgar. Appreciate what you've done at that site.
Reminds me so much of what was observed, experienced in 1970 and after in Sweden, and how hotly denied any truthful reports brought. They say time wounds all heels.... Sure proves true to me for those idealistically walking in the shoes of devout 2&2ism. And only growing worse so far as I can perceive. "They've" said I was just "unwilling" to fit in, and much much worse, in every instance led by one or more of the power driven "idolized workers." I remember telling Ylva what was bound to happen, and it has.
It brings much sorrow to have been correct, as my love was for people, not place and power, and to now see so many facing the same sorrows and grief make it nearly impossible to remember anything joyful about 2&2ism. Oh, I know what some will express even in this forum as they seek to protect "their kingdom." Thankfully for many though now, that reign is ending as awareness grows world wide of dishonesty and deception. I remember what all you have endured, Edgar. Once I too would never have believed it either possible or would ever happen.
Now over 50,000 views of this thread reveal what has been really going on for decades!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 7:03:47 GMT -5
Yes Dennis, the capacity of 2x2ism to disregard its mindbogglingly moral failures is enormous. Admittedly there are contentious issues within 2x2ism where I could have somewhat of an understanding that different perspective could reasonably be used as organizational justification. However in some of these major and well documented and well understood issues like the Vietnam takeover, or the Alberta mass-excommunications etc etc. the moral disaster for the group is quite non-contestable ... The complete disregard shown for basic Christian values is so obvious that it is only dishonesty and 'willful blindness' that makes never ending internal white wash and justification at all possible. There is no excuse for the claim of ignorance that so many have tried of evade responsibilty with in years gone by. With the availability of actual, clearly described, and first hand information on sites like this ... it will be hard for 2x2 supporters to escape responsibility for the ugly policies of the group that they sponsor. I have great difficulty understanding the mindset of many 2x2 affiliated today, that in spite of the obvious organizational failure of the group, proven time and time again --- choose to sponsor/suport it anyways. The willingness to accept the mutilation of their fellowman, and the most ugly forms of counter-Christian behavior is widespread within 2x2ism. Check out www.2x2vietnam.info !! -- none of the facts here have even been contested. The 2x2 mindset us an utter shame to Christianity --
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Post by findingtruth on Jul 6, 2014 21:53:57 GMT -5
Edgar and Dennis, I agree totally with your feelings. Edgar, you stated that you have great difficulty understanding the mindset of many 2x2 affiliated with the group continue to sponsor and support it. Here is my "personal" point of view.
I love(d) those in the fellowship. It was not unusual for me to compare those in the group with troubled individuals outside of the fellowship. It gave me some sense of comfort and a feeling of being in a safe zone. Instead of focusing on loving individuals outside of the fellowship I had been conditioned to focus on those with clear problems including immorality, depression and a host of other troubling situations. Then I had been conditioned to see those in the fellowship as loving people with Godly morals and values. Naturally those with issues were not used as model subjects to focus on. I had 35 years of conditioning as a result of judgmental talk. We heard it in convention meetings, we heard it in gospel meetings, we heard it in Wednesday night and Sunday morning meetings, we heard it in conversations with workers and friends. We heard about false preachers, blind people without understanding and much more.
When I finally realized that these "inside" folks had as many troubling problems as those outside I realized I'd been deceived through the influence of wrongful judgment and character assassination. For several years before leaving the fellowship I could see the problems and even expressed concern about the problems(typically to those who didn't want to hear my comments) but also realized that they existed in EVERY church group. This cannot be denied. We choose to believe what is comfortable to us or what justifies us. Human nature does not want to be wrong about things.
I think there are many in the 2x2 fellowship who are comfortable with their current experience in the group. It is for social reasons they stay - not spiritual. And I see no problem staying for the social aspect of the group. The ones who claim that they remain for spiritual reasons are likely not really being honest with themselves. Spiritual growth is never a result of a group experience but always an individual experience. Many who stay are afraid of social rejection, family rejection, and many have been brainwashed to the point that they are terrified of losing their salvation and becoming one of those "ignorant lost" people outside of their comfort group who are bound for a lost eternity.
This is an expression of my personal viewpoint and nothing else.
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