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Vietnam
May 30, 2013 5:19:43 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 5:19:43 GMT -5
Apparently one of the well to do friends from Australia (originally from Holland) moved to Vietnam in the late 90s some time, and established an English language school to give the workers a legitimate excuse to come into the country. This DG (that I have talked to) apparently was even 'officially' employed by one of the workers, who 'officially' was working in this school when he first came to Vietnam! So most foreign workers evidently come into the country on the pretense of being English teachers.
According to DG there are approx. 300 people professing in the country -- and 22 workers in the field (11 native). He said that there were 12 meetings in HCMC (he called it Saigon) and 2 in Hanoi.
Regarding the issue of problems within the fellowship and workers I will have to digest it a bit, as this story was of course presented to me from an extremely 2x2 "God was in it all" - "those that were unwilling to submit"- "sad that they lost out" - "the gospel is prospering" concept and mindset, and my 2x2 background makes me somewhat susceptible (but also quite suspicious) to this kind of reasoning. I will have to think about it a bit before I share it here.
I'll get back to your questions Clearday
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Vietnam
May 30, 2013 6:15:30 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 6:15:30 GMT -5
There doesn't seem to have been so much misunderstanding here on this board regarding the reasons behind Mr Bau's letter to me. When the new administration (Nathans apt words for the Canadian workers that were imported) took over a few years ago some of the native workers felt that their fundamental Christian belief was being replaced by a culture that had nothing to do with Christian teaching. One of them , a 'Mr Chau' (I am just spelling it phonetically as my 67 old ears heard it ) was so critical that he was asked to leave the work. Another brother worker 'Mr Wah' (also perhaps a incorrect spelling) quit the work with the explanation foreign influence was destroying the work there. He is still outside, but the first worker (Mr Chau) was reinstated on the condition that he would work in West Timor instead -evidently a country with a different language and culture. According to DG this is were he is at the moment.
Regarding the Bau's that wrote the letter to me, their exit (if that is what it is) must be just a continued reaction to the happenings around these native workers. DG didn't seem to be aware of their position – and seemed surprised and saddened by it. – so the ball rolls on!!!
Clearday – DG mentioned both MG and DT but didn't say much about them except that they were Canadians. Interestingly enough he spoke about a sister worker AM that seems to be quite good at the language --- She is my sisters husbands niece!!
And no, he didn't go into any explanation as to why the change of administration- We are to continue our discussion so it will be interesting to see how it goes.
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Vietnam
May 30, 2013 7:02:55 GMT -5
Post by Persona non grata on May 30, 2013 7:02:55 GMT -5
There doesn't seem to have been so much misunderstanding here on this board regarding the reasons behind Mr Bau's letter to me. When the new administration (Nathans apt words for the Canadian workers that were imported) took over a few years ago some of the native workers felt that their fundamental Christian belief was being replaced by a culture that had nothing to do with Christian teaching. One of them , a 'Mr Chau' (I am just spelling it phonetically as my 67 old ears heard it ) was so critical that he was asked to leave the work. Another brother worker 'Mr Wah' (also perhaps a incorrect spelling) quit the work with the explanation foreign influence was destroying the work there. He is still outside, but the first worker (Mr Chau) was reinstated on the condition that he would work in West Timor instead -evidently a country with a different language and culture. According to DG this is were he is at the moment. Regarding the Bau's that wrote the letter to me, their exit (if that is what it is) must be just a continued reaction to the happenings around these native workers. DG didn't seem to be aware of their position – and seemed surprised and saddened by it. – so the ball rolls on!!! Clearday – DG mentioned both MG and DT but didn't say much about them except that they were Canadians. Interestingly enough he spoke about a sister worker AM that seems to be quite good at the language --- She is my sisters husbands niece!! And no, he didn't go into any explanation as to why the change of administration- We are to continue our discussion so it will be interesting to see how it goes. Thanks for the update Edgar. It would be interesting to hear what DG's impressions are on these differences. Did he notice a fundamental difference in Christian belief (compared with the North American fellowship) when he first came to Vietnam? Did he notice a change as a result of the foreign influence by the time he returned to the US?
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Vietnam
May 30, 2013 7:20:06 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 7:20:06 GMT -5
Thanks for that Edgar. We look forward to more information on these difficulties. Sorting it out will surely be helpful for people who are involved. Who gave the authority to LS to assume administrative control of that country? Did your source indicate that DT was once the chief worker there? Did he mention reasons that MG is now in Laos? I will just point out that this fellow DG is very obviously a firm supporter of the 2x2 system (as I was for 45 years). Although I haven't chosen to go on any kind of a collision course with his belief system, he is doubtlessly aware of the fact that I am negative to the system so he is careful not to express any kind of dissatisfaction with the powers that be --- at the same time I find him forthcoming with his information, and I appreciate him for that. I have no illusions about anything that any of us can do are going make the slightest of difference to the work and friends in Vietnam -- The only help that I can hope to be is to comfort the bruised, and encourage them to continue to stand for their faith and to trust that God is well able to bless even outside the 2x2 system. For people entrenched in the system for many years, it is very hard to imagine a fulfilling life outside -- This is an understanding that I would hope to share. As Nathan indicated, likely western leaders felt that as CT became unable -- other Canadians should take over and given the support that he had had. The 'powers that be' can decide pretty much whatever they like in the organization -- Then they have the muscle (amongst other things - economic resources) to make sure their decisions are implemented. This is an amazingly similar copy of the happenings in Greece a few years ago. -- and I hear in the tone from DG that the workers justify it with the exact same terminology, and then apply slander, contempt and marginalization of folks with concerns in the genuine 2x2 fashion. It is nothing new.
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Vietnam
May 30, 2013 7:21:51 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 7:21:51 GMT -5
Apparently one of the well to do friends from Australia (originally from Holland) moved to Vietnam in the late 90s some time, and established an English language school to give the workers a legitimate excuse to come into the country. This DG (that I have talked to) apparently was even 'officially' employed by one of the workers, who 'officially' was working in this school when he first came to Vietnam! So most foreign workers evidently come into the country on the pretense of being English teachers. According to DG there are approx. 300 people professing in the country -- and 22 workers in the field (11 native). He said that there were 12 meetings in HCMC (he called it Saigon) and 2 in Hanoi. Regarding the issue of problems within the fellowship and workers I will have to digest it a bit, as this story was of course presented to me from an extremely 2x2 "God was in it all" - "those that were unwilling to submit"- "sad that they lost out" - "the gospel is prospering" concept and mindset, and my 2x2 background makes me somewhat susceptible (but also quite suspicious) to this kind of reasoning. I will have to think about it a bit before I share it here. I'll get back to your questions Clearday That information coincides with mine from other sources Edgar. I wonder if one can accurately say that the "gospel is prospering" when there are 22 workers who have produced 300 friends. I suppose it is considered "prospering" when any numbers are stable or rising, which is a rarity around the world today. The ratio of workers:friends in North American fields is somewhere around 4-5:300 in Western fields. When you have 22:300, it is easy to see how troubles can ensue with heavy-handed workers establishing their rule over fields with only a few friends and reacting badly when another worker crosses their little field boundaries. It's a recipe for troubles. I could well imagine the troubles that would come out of a ratio of 22:300 in North America.
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May 30, 2013 7:34:12 GMT -5
Post by Persona non grata on May 30, 2013 7:34:12 GMT -5
Apparently one of the well to do friends from Australia (originally from Holland) moved to Vietnam in the late 90s some time, and established an English language school to give the workers a legitimate excuse to come into the country. This DG (that I have talked to) apparently was even 'officially' employed by one of the workers, who 'officially' was working in this school when he first came to Vietnam! So most foreign workers evidently come into the country on the pretense of being English teachers. According to DG there are approx. 300 people professing in the country -- and 22 workers in the field (11 native). He said that there were 12 meetings in HCMC (he called it Saigon) and 2 in Hanoi. Regarding the issue of problems within the fellowship and workers I will have to digest it a bit, as this story was of course presented to me from an extremely 2x2 "God was in it all" - "those that were unwilling to submit"- "sad that they lost out" - "the gospel is prospering" concept and mindset, and my 2x2 background makes me somewhat susceptible (but also quite suspicious) to this kind of reasoning. I will have to think about it a bit before I share it here. I'll get back to your questions Clearday That information coincides with mine from other sources Edgar. I wonder if one can accurately say that the "gospel is prospering" when there are 22 workers who have produced 300 friends. I suppose it is considered "prospering" when any numbers are stable or rising, which is a rarity around the world today. The ratio of workers:friends in North American fields is somewhere around 4-5:300 in Western fields. When you have 22:300, it is easy to see how troubles can ensue with heavy-handed workers establishing their rule over fields with only a few friends and reacting badly when another worker crosses their little field boundaries. It's a recipe for troubles. I could well imagine the troubles that would come out of a ratio of 22:300 in North America. Not to mention the "culture clashes" as a result of a 50% foreign culture worker base.
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Vietnam
May 30, 2013 7:35:44 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 7:35:44 GMT -5
Who has the rule over you Greg? The Vietnamese had to choose between the native workers who labored for them for many years through blood sweat and tears - or the foreign workers who were gone during the difficult years and came back to take control. Definitely not the workers. Assorted governments, I guess. Whether you see the F&W fellowship as God's creation or the workers' creation, they are in charge. They have the rule. Good point Greg. Whether we live under a Democracy or under a Dictatorship the leaders are in charge, they have the rule whether we like it or not. The answer is to escape if we can or rebel and face the consequences.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 7:42:51 GMT -5
That information coincides with mine from other sources Edgar. I wonder if one can accurately say that the "gospel is prospering" when there are 22 workers who have produced 300 friends. I suppose it is considered "prospering" when any numbers are stable or rising, which is a rarity around the world today. The ratio of workers:friends in North American fields is somewhere around 4-5:300 in Western fields. When you have 22:300, it is easy to see how troubles can ensue with heavy-handed workers establishing their rule over fields with only a few friends and reacting badly when another worker crosses their little field boundaries. It's a recipe for troubles. I could well imagine the troubles that would come out of a ratio of 22:300 in North America. Not to mention the "culture clashes" as a result of a 50% foreign culture worker base. Yes, it gets very complex there when there are multiple cultures. As I mentioned in another post, just imagine a bunch of Vietnamese or Korean workers coming over to North America, deciding to become the "New Administration" here, struggling with the language and enforcing their way of doing things. We all know how well that would go over. The culture of people from South East Asia is to be very careful about possibly offending others. People are very polite and easy to get along with. It is a culture like this which will allow foreigners to come in and take over until it has gone too far. The "New Administration" probably thinks that this apparent submissiveness is evidence of "The Spirit" that they have cultivated that allows them to come in and take over such "willing" people.
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May 30, 2013 7:44:14 GMT -5
Post by Greg on May 30, 2013 7:44:14 GMT -5
Not a biggie, but Viet Nam might have been under Canadian authority for years...they just didn't know it.
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May 30, 2013 7:56:58 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 7:56:58 GMT -5
Definitely not the workers. Assorted governments, I guess. Whether you see the F&W fellowship as God's creation or the workers' creation, they are in charge. They have the rule. Good point Greg. Whether we live under a Democracy or under a Dictatorship the leaders are in charge, they have the rule whether we like it or not. The answer is to escape if we can or rebel and face the consequences. Mr Cheap Shots I understand that some workers were asked to leave AFTER the so called liberation took place and some chose not to return later
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Vietnam
May 30, 2013 8:08:00 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 8:08:00 GMT -5
Good point Greg. Whether we live under a Democracy or under a Dictatorship the leaders are in charge, they have the rule whether we like it or not. The answer is to escape if we can or rebel and face the consequences. Mr Cheap Shots I understand that some workers were asked to leave AFTER the so called liberation took place and some chose not to return later Hopwood, there is no need to be insulting, you aught to be above "name calling." You have your opinions and you are free to state them. I do not have to agree with yours and you do not have to agree with mine but quit the name calling it devalues you and your contribution.
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May 30, 2013 8:08:19 GMT -5
Post by Greg on May 30, 2013 8:08:19 GMT -5
Not a biggie, but Viet Nam might have been under Canadian authority for years...they just didn't know it. It was under Australians first in 50's .... now Canadians.... I wish they had allowed the native workers to run the operation like they did the last 25 yrs.... any worker who came in the country serve ONLY as helpers to the natives NOT be lords over whole operation.Thanks for that. Australian responsibility makes sense in regard to proximity.
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Vietnam
May 30, 2013 8:21:06 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 8:21:06 GMT -5
It was under Australians first in 50's .... now Canadians.... I wish they had allowed the native workers to run the operation like they did the last 25 yrs.... any worker who came in the country serve ONLY as helpers to the natives NOT be lords over whole operation. Thanks for that. Australian responsibility makes sense in regard to proximity. The distance between Melbourne and Hanoi is about 4800 miles. Between Vancouver and Hanoi is 6700 miles. Neither one is exactly in close proximity. One of the differences between Australia and Canada is that Australia officially participated in the Vietnam War, while Canada did not. I think you will find that that is the primary reason Vietnam is not now run by Australians (or Americans). The country would be somewhat more open to Canadians. Interestingly, it was an Australian businessman who originally provided the cover story for the workers going in after liberation from the Americans. I haven't heard anything of his involvement for a lot of years now.....that was back in the '90's.
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May 30, 2013 8:26:08 GMT -5
Post by Persona non grata on May 30, 2013 8:26:08 GMT -5
It was under Australians first in 50's .... now Canadians.... I wish they had allowed the native workers to run the operation like they did the last 25 yrs.... any worker who came in the country serve ONLY as helpers to the natives NOT be lords over whole operation. Thanks for that. Australian responsibility makes sense in regard to proximity. Vietnamese responsibility makes sense in regard to proximity.
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May 30, 2013 8:58:28 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on May 30, 2013 8:58:28 GMT -5
CD: I'd be interested to read more details about this "cover story." Not sure what you mean...
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May 30, 2013 9:22:18 GMT -5
Post by quizzer on May 30, 2013 9:22:18 GMT -5
sacerdotal, fixit, we're all professing folks here and, maybe, you can ask the workers about this. I've had one elder explain this, and he got it from the brother workers. There's a Bible verse in the New Testament about ruthless men grabbing hold of [something - I think it's fellowship]. This verse is used to explain why the workers HAVE to be so tough on the friends and on anyone beneath them. It shows that they're earning God's favor or something. I'm thinking the 2x2s just don't understand the verse (and I can't find it at this time). You folks ever hear this one? Apparently, it's available if you ask. Is this the verse you had in mind Quiz? Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. Yes, that's it, fixit. I'm remembering the translation of "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and forceful people lay hold of it." Sorry, snow, it's not exactly used for tough love. It's a "Might Makes Right" thought pattern, where you do whatever you can to be in charge of the meetings, and that's how you win God's favor. You have to be forceful, you have to be tough, you have to be ruthless. (Not really about meeting the needs of anyone else.) Thanks, sharingtheriches. I didn't think that verse was being used correctly, though. My apologies - you're still sharonw in my head!
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May 30, 2013 9:49:05 GMT -5
Post by Greg on May 30, 2013 9:49:05 GMT -5
Thanks for that. Australian responsibility makes sense in regard to proximity. The distance between Melbourne and Hanoi is about 4800 miles. Between Vancouver and Hanoi is 6700 miles. Neither one is exactly in close proximity. Right. With air travel, the time difference is not great and perhaps the money spent is of little to no consideration.
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May 30, 2013 9:53:16 GMT -5
Post by Greg on May 30, 2013 9:53:16 GMT -5
Thanks for that. Australian responsibility makes sense in regard to proximity. Vietnamese responsibility makes sense in regard to proximity. Indeed. Similarly... Mexico still have oversight by Allen Anderson (not sure of spelling)? Argentina, if not all of South America under oversight still by Duane Hopkins?
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May 30, 2013 10:44:50 GMT -5
Post by snow on May 30, 2013 10:44:50 GMT -5
Actually,no- I don't see the "hand of God" bringing out the truth about the "TRUTH."
I see the "hand of the Internet" bringing out the truth of the the "TRUTH."
Where was "God" for a hundred years + some that he to allowed the "TRUTH to continue?
Why did "God" even allow men to start the "TRUTH" to begin with?
God "allowed" Pharisees among the Children of Israel in Jesus day. Why should we expect him to not "allow" Pharisees today? I think DMG's point is that man does whatever they please and God has nothing to do with any of it. He is not even in the equation?
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May 31, 2013 9:08:50 GMT -5
Post by quizzer on May 31, 2013 9:08:50 GMT -5
Thanks for that Edgar. We look forward to more information on these difficulties. Sorting it out will surely be helpful for people who are involved. Who gave the authority to LS to assume administrative control of that country? Did your source indicate that DT was once the chief worker there? Did he mention reasons that MG is now in Laos? I will just point out that this fellow DG is very obviously a firm supporter of the 2x2 system (as I was for 45 years). Although I haven't chosen to go on any kind of a collision course with his belief system, he is doubtlessly aware of the fact that I am negative to the system so he is careful not to express any kind of dissatisfaction with the powers that be --- at the same time I find him forthcoming with his information, and I appreciate him for that. I have no illusions about anything that any of us can do are going make the slightest of difference to the work and friends in Vietnam -- The only help that I can hope to be is to comfort the bruised, and encourage them to continue to stand for their faith and to trust that God is well able to bless even outside the 2x2 system. For people entrenched in the system for many years, it is very hard to imagine a fulfilling life outside -- This is an understanding that I would hope to share. As Nathan indicated, likely western leaders felt that as CT became unable -- other Canadians should take over and given the support that he had had. The 'powers that be' can decide pretty much whatever they like in the organization -- Then they have the muscle (amongst other things - economic resources) to make sure their decisions are implemented. This is an amazingly similar copy of the happenings in Greece a few years ago. -- and I hear in the tone from DG that the workers justify it with the exact same terminology, and then apply slander, contempt and marginalization of folks with concerns in the genuine 2x2 fashion. It is nothing new. Any ideas why the change in 2x2 administration - Vietnam being easier to access for foreign workers, a need to move out a devisive overseer (LS - don't know), Vietnam workers being willing to walk around foreign workers, other 2x2 overseers not seeing co-operation from Vietnam workers and friends? I'm thinking that Vietnam is currently experiencing 2x2 culture as our ancestors did - at first it's minimal, then it's imposed if there's obvious loyalty to the 2x2 system.
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Vietnam
May 31, 2013 10:03:09 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 31, 2013 10:03:09 GMT -5
Any ideas why the change in 2x2 administration - Vietnam being easier to access for foreign workers, a need to move out a devisive overseer (LS - don't know), Vietnam workers being willing to walk around foreign workers, other 2x2 overseers not seeing co-operation from Vietnam workers and friends? I'm thinking that Vietnam is currently experiencing 2x2 culture as our ancestors did - at first it's minimal, then it's imposed if there's obvious loyalty to the 2x2 system. Change the administration!!! -- It's not going to happen. Things don't get better within 2x2ism. After the infamous expulsion of Marg Magowan -- all three of the brother workers involved we given promotions -- DS to be overseer in California -- JA became overseer in Sask. and MA in Alberta. Amongst 2x2 leadership, it is regarded a virtuous act to prove who is boss, and I guess they have done this in Vietnam now!!! I could hear in DG the basic idea that 'it was all for the best' -- that is the mind-set!
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May 31, 2013 11:35:22 GMT -5
Post by Greg on May 31, 2013 11:35:22 GMT -5
Any ideas why the change in 2x2 administration - Vietnam being easier to access for foreign workers, a need to move out a devisive overseer (LS - don't know), Vietnam workers being willing to walk around foreign workers, other 2x2 overseers not seeing co-operation from Vietnam workers and friends? I'm thinking that Vietnam is currently experiencing 2x2 culture as our ancestors did - at first it's minimal, then it's imposed if there's obvious loyalty to the 2x2 system. Change the administration!!! -- It's not going to happen. Things don't get better within 2x2ism. After the infamous expulsion of Marg Magowan -- all three of the brother workers involved we given promotions -- DS to be overseer in California -- JA became overseer in Sask. and MA in Alberta. Amongst 2x2 leadership, it is regarded a virtuous act to prove who is boss, and I guess they have done this in Vietnam now!!! I could hear in DG the basic idea that 'it was all for the best' -- that is the mind-set! So there was change in the Canadian/Alberta administration after excommunications. Your view of F&W leadership's virtue is a gross misunderstanding (I hope - for your sake, not theirs). Many people think "bad things" are "all for the best....God's will be done."
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May 31, 2013 13:05:35 GMT -5
Post by Greg on May 31, 2013 13:05:35 GMT -5
From my source there were some personal conflicts between the native workers and the foreigner workers so to ease the tension DS might be the new MAN over there. India and VN gov't are in good terms with one another. Did your source tell you what the personal conflicts are? Seems if there is a personal conflict, then the new guy should be moved. Curious about the India and Viet Nam gov't comment. Does that have anything to do with the Canadian workers coming into Viet Nam?
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May 31, 2013 13:42:03 GMT -5
Post by fixit on May 31, 2013 13:42:03 GMT -5
Paul and Barnabas had a great disagreement between them that they split up! each went their separate ways but continue in the Lord's work. Paul took Timothy and Silas. Barnabas took John Mark and went to another place preaching the gospel. So, the gospel spreads further from their splitting up. The gospel seeds scatter to new location (Laos/Cambodia). I met David G. when I first came to USA. He is a good man. Do you think Paul, Timothy, Silas, Barnabas, John Mark would have all retained their names on workers lists? Or were some of them dropped off the list like many including Marg Magowan, Steve Blubaugh, and the courageous brother worker from Vietnam who did so much for the work through the difficult years after the foreign workers fled.
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May 31, 2013 14:12:27 GMT -5
Post by Greg on May 31, 2013 14:12:27 GMT -5
~~ C is still in the work. I pray that the new adm. will be peace makers and welcome H. back in the work with open arms. I hope they've learned their lessons from Alberta with Marge M. excommunication. What lesson would that be?
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May 31, 2013 14:53:18 GMT -5
Post by Persona non grata on May 31, 2013 14:53:18 GMT -5
What lesson would that be? Don't be too harsh and making hasty choices in excommunication. Forgiveness/try to solve the problem in godly manners. Two letters were written by Willis to all workers/friends apologized for Alberta Corp. Try to stop and solve the problems before it gets out of hands. Listen, answer questions in non-threaten ways.Nathan, I really appreciate your input here and share your sentiments. Let's hope and pray for a Godly solution.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2013 15:08:21 GMT -5
From my source there were some personal conflicts between the native workers and the foreigner workers so to ease the tension DS might be the new MAN over there. India and VN gov't are in good terms with one another. Paul and Barnabas had a great disagreement between them that they split up! each went their separate ways but continue in the Lord's work. Paul took Timothy and Silas. Barnabas took John Mark and went to another place preaching the gospel. So, the gospel spreads further from their splitting up. The gospel seeds scatter to new location (Laos/Cambodia). I met David G. when I first came to USA. He is a good man. This is exactly what I mean about the non-existent capacity for change within 2x2ism! -- Workers get squeezed out, slandered and rejected by foreigners that unasked for take over -- Other workers get banished (against their will) to some land few have heard of before (and a language they can't speak) --- Friends that have given their lives and familys to the organization, and supported it in every way they could, interpret these events in such a way that they completely lose faith in the system in the final years of life --- And the comment we get from one of the prime 2x2 supporters on the board is "Its just a sign that we are so scriptural and right!!!" With this kind of attitude is it strange that workers NEVER learn from their mistakes??? Things will never change or improve as long as this is the predominent mindset. and I recognize the mindset from the mass-excommunications in Alberta -- obviously nothing has changed.
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May 31, 2013 15:41:13 GMT -5
Post by sacerdotal on May 31, 2013 15:41:13 GMT -5
From my source there were some personal conflicts between the native workers and the foreigner workers so to ease the tension DS might be the new MAN over there. India and VN gov't are in good terms with one another. Paul and Barnabas had a great disagreement between them that they split up! each went their separate ways but continue in the Lord's work. Paul took Timothy and Silas. Barnabas took John Mark and went to another place preaching the gospel. So, the gospel spreads further from their splitting up. The gospel seeds scatter to new location (Laos/Cambodia). I met David G. when I first came to USA. He is a good man. This is exactly what I mean about the non-existent capacity for change within 2x2ism! -- Workers get squeezed out, slandered and rejected by foreigners that unasked for take over -- Other workers get banished (against their will) to some land few have heard of before (and a language they can't speak) --- Friends that have given their lives and familys to the organization, and supported it in every way they could, interpret these events in such a way that they completely lose faith in the system in the final years of life --- And the comment we get from one of the prime 2x2 supporters on the board is "Its just a sign that we are so scriptural and right!!!" With this kind of attitude is it strange that workers NEVER learn from their mistakes??? Things will never change or improve as long as this is the predominent mindset. and I recognize the mindset from the mass-excommunications in Alberta -- obviously nothing has changed. +1. Seems to be the case. And will remain to be the case as long as they THINK that they are following God's will.
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