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Vietnam
May 31, 2013 15:43:10 GMT -5
Post by fixit on May 31, 2013 15:43:10 GMT -5
What lesson would that be? Don't be too harsh and making hasty choices in excommunication. Forgiveness/try to solve the problem in godly manners. Two letters were written by Willis to all workers/friends apologized for Alberta Corp. Try to stop and solve the problems before it gets out of hands. Listen, answer questions in non-threaten ways.Willis was sorry that what he'd done behind closed doors became public. From his letter: However, a problem has arisen. Canada recently passed a Freedom of Information bill. Through this, our document is on the Internet, and it has now got into the hands of the ‘dissenters'. They are spreading it with delight, and we write this to suggest that if it reaches any of our friends, please have them just burn it.The document made the friends part of a "society" without their permission or knowledge. In New Testament days, the church would have been informed about the problem in Hungary and sought a prayerful solution together. There's no need for overseers to behave differently in dealing with secular authorities than they behave on the convention platform. I believe New Testament apostles would have been open and accountable in whatever situation they were in.
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Vietnam
May 31, 2013 15:57:52 GMT -5
Post by fixit on May 31, 2013 15:57:52 GMT -5
The books, accounts and records of the society may be inspected by any Member of the Society at the annual meeting provided for herein or at any time upon giving reasonable notice and arranging a time satisfactory to the officer or officers having charge of same.
That was hardly going to happen, because most Members of the Society didn't even know they were members of the society!
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Vietnam
May 31, 2013 16:15:12 GMT -5
Post by Greg on May 31, 2013 16:15:12 GMT -5
"Our sister who labors there, was the companion to the girl in question, and she appealed urgently to us that we do something about it, because any approach they made to the local authorities was to "no avail" and they needed help badly."
Apparently the companion was not included as one of "our sisters". Wonder how "our sister" was able to be in the country, but the companion was not.
Perhaps the companion was from another country?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2013 7:04:58 GMT -5
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Vietnam
Jun 1, 2013 10:33:42 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2013 10:33:42 GMT -5
Thanks for that Edgar. There are intimations that there are many more issues involved here than solely the worker territorial issue.
The suggestion that 100 friends are supporting the partially-banned local worker should be a wake-up call for the foreign interlopers. That is a huge proportion of the total number of friends there.....much more proportionately than Alberta.
Hopefully, he will share some insight into the bigger picture. In the meantime, he is reaching out for help and direction....and you have certainly been where he is now.
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Vietnam
Jun 1, 2013 14:13:29 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2013 14:13:29 GMT -5
Here, by the way is may answer to his first letter -- Which he answered in his letter to me today. I am still trying to think out how I can answer this latest letter.
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Vietnam
Jun 1, 2013 14:18:43 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Jun 1, 2013 14:18:43 GMT -5
Thanks for that Edgar. There are intimations that there are many more issues involved here than solely the worker territorial issue. The suggestion that 100 friends are supporting the partially-banned local worker should be a wake-up call for the foreign interlopers. That is a huge proportion of the total number of friends there.....much more proportionately than Alberta. Hopefully, he will share some insight into the bigger picture. In the meantime, he is reaching out for help and direction....and you have certainly been where he is now. I wonder, Does anyone think that this case in Vietnam is due to the feeling of a lot of western countries that they are superior to Asian countries?
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Deleted
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Vietnam
Jun 1, 2013 14:34:48 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2013 14:34:48 GMT -5
Thanks for that Edgar. There are intimations that there are many more issues involved here than solely the worker territorial issue. The suggestion that 100 friends are supporting the partially-banned local worker should be a wake-up call for the foreign interlopers. That is a huge proportion of the total number of friends there.....much more proportionately than Alberta. Hopefully, he will share some insight into the bigger picture. In the meantime, he is reaching out for help and direction....and you have certainly been where he is now. I wonder, Does anyone think that this case in Vietnam is due to the feeling of a lot of western countries that they are superior to Asian countries?
No question in my mind about that. There is not only a general Western bias of superiority, but there is also a Western 2x2 bias that "our way is the right way". I think when this story unfolds, we will see that the Canadian (and other) workers have been very busy attempting to force the western and traditional 2x2 culture upon the Vietnamese friends and workers over there. I say that because of the worker I quoted in another post who indicated at convention that he had expended a huge amount of effort doing just that in Vietnam. It was clear to me that this particular worker had been frustratingly trying to transform the Vietnamese friends into a traditional image so that the workers could be proud of their own efforts. That's clearly a recipe for disaster. A relative of mine went over there a few years ago to spend time with that worker and it ended up in a major blowup, with my relative quitting the meetings promptly after returning home ahead of schedule. There are indications that there is not a healthy atmosphere over there and the workers have only themselves to blame.
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Vietnam
Jun 1, 2013 14:48:56 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2013 14:48:56 GMT -5
If I were to extrapolate from our recent experience trying to discuss a spiritual question with a brother worker, I would imagine that things are pretty tense in VN. I know one discussion does not a statistic make, but we were stunned at how quickly the worker got hot and bothered and we were only asking a question that did not affect function, form, or doctrine. It was odd. So, I feel for the VN folks, whatever the situation is.
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Deleted
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Vietnam
Jun 1, 2013 14:54:58 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2013 14:54:58 GMT -5
If I were to extrapolate from our recent experience trying to discuss a spiritual question with a brother worker, I would imagine that things are pretty tense in VN. I know one discussion does not a statistic make, but we were stunned at how quickly the worker got hot and bothered and we were only asking a question that did not affect function, form, or doctrine. It was odd. So, I feel for the VN folks, whatever the situation is. A lot of workers and friends are very fragile, so your experience would not be uncommon at all. With a lot of workers, you have to be very skilled to coax their true thoughts out of them, if it can be done. People really appreciate the workers who are who they are, warts and all. For the rest, I suppose they should be pitied except that some of them are in positions of being able to hurt people.
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Deleted
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Vietnam
Jun 1, 2013 15:00:24 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2013 15:00:24 GMT -5
I wonder, Does anyone think that theis case in Vietnam is due to the feeling of a lot of western countries that they are superior to Asian countries?
Yes. The foreigners brought the gospel to VN and in most Asian countries, they finance the operations and have the connection around the world and the Asians don't.Which makes them feel superior. No doubt.
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Vietnam
Jun 1, 2013 16:52:50 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jun 1, 2013 16:52:50 GMT -5
Nathan, who would dare to break the Dale Shultz rule?
A simple understanding that workers recognize the world over is that we don't go into other fields and get involved without the knowledge and sanction of the workers in that field. That applies to the field bordering us, let alone the neighboring province.
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Vietnam
Jun 1, 2013 16:53:03 GMT -5
Post by snow on Jun 1, 2013 16:53:03 GMT -5
If the western workers are there illegally maybe they can be exposed and sent back home? They seem to be doing a great deal of harm by being there. How arrogant to expect other cultures to do things the western way when you are an illegal guest in their country!
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Vietnam
Jun 1, 2013 17:23:53 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Jun 1, 2013 17:23:53 GMT -5
I wonder, Does anyone think that this case in Vietnam is due to the feeling of a lot of western countries that they are superior to Asian countries?
Yes. The foreigners brought the gospel to VN and in most Asian countries, they finance the operations and have the connection around the world and the Asians don't.
The natives don't mind the foreigners want to run the show but if a bad/abusive Adm. in charge then the outcome could be disaster. What I had in mind is the "we are totally superior" attitude that Western civilizations have towards any Asian, African or other civilization or culture in ANYTHING! religion, political system-what ever!
How do you know the "natives" of those countries don't mind "foreigners" running the show?
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Vietnam
Jun 1, 2013 23:39:58 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Jun 1, 2013 23:39:58 GMT -5
Below is a copy of Bau's letter I have typed that Edgar posted the link to above:
Vietnam – Saigon 31 May 2013
Dear Uncle Edgar Massey,
Thank you very much for your call and your email recently. Very happy to read what you wrote and you looking forward to hearing again. That’s why I would like to write as I promise in my last one.
Dear Uncle, there were a lot of things that the workers have done here, more than in your land 12 years ago. They changed and changed as they went! . .
Did you hear Mr. Chau and Mr. Hoa, these two first Vietnamese offered their lives for the work since 1965 until all Foreign Workers had to leave VN in 1975. While Chau and Hoa have been continuing very well to keep the folk safely and increasing in all ways!
In 1990, our country opened the door, so this is the case for the Foreign Workers come here again, almost is Canadian. Everything keep on well on the foundation that we do enjoy during over 50 years – But later on the workers, they used their authorities to cut, to add, to teach something are not in the right way, Very bad to drive Mr. Chau out the work! With some untrue reasons! All the elders and friends spoke up but not allowed! Over 19 months they permitted Chau return, but sent him to Cambodia, to East Timor and now in Australia, while in VN we need him very much.
Mr. Hoa saw these clearly and he felt sooner or later they’ll do the same, so he stood up get rid off the noose from his neck and freely to labour as he should. We over too support him and we want to Worship God as what we learn from the Bible…May I ask some questions-
How about you and those who left the group? Anything better among you since that time? Do you have any experience to share us? May I close here, with you all are well.
Yours in Him
(Signature of Bau)
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Post by fixit on Jun 2, 2013 0:03:42 GMT -5
Thanks Cherie.
Question: the last line before the questions at the end, is it:
"We over too support him and we want to Worship God as what we learn from the Bible…May I ask some questions-"
or is it...
"We over 100 support him and we want to Worship God as what we learn from the Bible…May I ask some questions-"
If that word was 100, would it mean:
"We are supporting him 100%"
or...
"There are 100 of us who are supporting him"?
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aus1
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Post by aus1 on Jun 2, 2013 1:26:48 GMT -5
Has Chau been pushed out of the work completely or has he been sent elsewhere, still in the work?
I saw a recent photo of him at a Special Meeting in South Australia.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2013 2:22:54 GMT -5
Has Chau been pushed out of the work completely or has he been sent elsewhere, still in the work? I saw a recent photo of him at a Special Meeting in South Australia. My understanding is that he was first expelled from the work -- then allowed back in with the condition he not be in Vietnam. So now he is just banished from Vietnam. And as I understand it , the workers have spent a lot of effort discrediting him amongst the friends in Vietnam. (The famous 2x2 gossip chains, where the stories gain juicy momentum with every new owner!! a very dirty but typical 2x2 trick effectively used in the Alberta mass-excommunications as well) -- Check the following link, www.anotherstep.net/summary/constructedfilth.htm
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aus1
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Post by aus1 on Jun 2, 2013 4:09:39 GMT -5
There seems to be a push from the Western Canada workers in the Far east. Not much has been said, but a couple of years ago, the Australian overseer who was in Taiwan was moved back to Australia at short notice and a Canadian put in charge.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2013 4:21:04 GMT -5
Here is the reply I have written to Baus most recent letter.
Thank you very much for your letter again -- I can understand so very well how you folks are feeling ... I wish that there was something that could be done to help correct the situation for you all -- but unfortunately I have lost all faith in any capacity within that fellowship to stand for truth and moral Christian value in situations like this.
As I am sure it is for you, one of the more painful aspects that we have had to learn to live with after our rejection, is the knowledge that workers will invent bad stories about rejected folks and then spread them amongst those in fellowship if the form of ill-willed gossip. This ugly trait amongst senior workers leaves no possibility for the truth to be explained correctly -- and we have to learn to live with this. However this is something that Jesus did mention that was part of our service to him in Matt 5 "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." And "Blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." This has been a wonderful comfort to us.
I have heard from a woman in the US (that I have been acquainted with a number of years) that is interested in your situation and would like to communicate with you via email so I have shared your email address with her. I expect she will be writing to you within a few days". Her name is Cherie Kopp and she has done an extensive work to document and reveal some of the hidden aspects of the fellowship and workers activities throughout the years.
Otherwise Bau I would just like to thank you again for sharing your feelings with me, and for the encouragement it is to me to hear of folks that stand true to their Christian convictions in spite of the enormous cost that we understand you are willing to pay. I also feel for all the others there that have been betrayed in this situation -- and I find comfort in the understanding that you will, and are doing everything you can to help them all in their frustration and confusion. I can understand that your long and faithful history within the fellowship will be something that will enable you to keep their trust .. and that in this, share with them the genuine Christian spirit that will guide them all aright.
Thank you again for your letter, and I will look forward to hearing from you again -- this means a lot to me.
Sincerely
Edgar Massey
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Post by quizzer on Jun 2, 2013 5:56:22 GMT -5
Yes. The foreigners brought the gospel to VN and in most Asian countries, they finance the operations and have the connection around the world and the Asians don't. Which makes them feel superior. No doubt. Wow. Y'know, I'm comfortable with the concept that those who are paying for stuff should have some say in what is purchased and how it should be used. However, the converse doesn't seem true - would the foreign overseer be comfortable with the Vietnam friends and workers paying for everything, owing nothing to the foreign overseer?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2013 6:22:38 GMT -5
Which makes them feel superior. No doubt. Wow. Y'know, I'm comfortable with the concept that those who are paying for stuff should have some say in what is purchased and how it should be used. However, the converse doesn't seem true - would the foreign overseer be comfortable with the Vietnam friends and workers paying for everything, owing nothing to the foreign overseer? There is an old principle that says "he who pays the piper calls the tune" and it does seem to be the way things work in the world. It is very rare that a payor would give freely and not expect to control things. There is no reason why the rich Western overseers would think any differently.....they are a product of their own culture. Of course they don't practice it at home and account to the givers for the spending. That said, just what are they paying for that would make them feel worthy to run the show? I suppose there is some sort of convention system there that is supported by Western money. Other than that, we do know that workers do not give money to people for fear the people will follow them for the money. Of course the Western overseers aren't going to let anyone encroach on their own territories, money or not. At the moment, money in Vietnam hasn't started accumulating significantly.....yet. But it is coming. Vietnam's economy is developing rapidly and with it will come capital accumulation. The day is not far off when VN's friends and workers won't need Western money, unless the friends over there have been brainwashed against having good businesses and good paying jobs.
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Vietnam
Jun 2, 2013 10:20:04 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2013 10:20:04 GMT -5
OK -- I will admit that in the business world, the principle that "The folks that pay for a service should also be the ones that decide what that service is." is legal and acceptable. Fair enough if the service is not forced upon the ´consumer' , as it would seem Mr Bau has felt it was in his country. Even if this principle is legal in the commercial world, it seems to be far from the story of the gospel -- According to Mr Bau (and my own understanding) this is not the gospel that they have given their lives for -- so I can understand their frustration -- I have felt the same frustration.
"Hostile takeover" is a term used in the business world, when new capital can come in and claim ownership and the right to change the principles of an organization. Obviously what has happened in Vietnam -- Legal in the business world (except for the obvious deception used in getting workers into the country), but far from Christianity.
At this stage, the complete lack of moral principle, and application of ecconomic might within 2x2ism doesn't surprize me any more.
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Vietnam
Jun 2, 2013 10:30:53 GMT -5
Post by stargazer on Jun 2, 2013 10:30:53 GMT -5
Wow. Y'know, I'm comfortable with the concept that those who are paying for stuff should have some say in what is purchased and how it should be used. However, the converse doesn't seem true - would the foreign overseer be comfortable with the Vietnam friends and workers paying for everything, owing nothing to the foreign overseer? There is an old principle that says "he who pays the piper calls the tune" and it does seem to be the way things work in the world. It is very rare that a payor would give freely and not expect to control things. There is no reason why the rich Western overseers would think any differently.....they are a product of their own culture. Of course they don't practice it at home and account to the givers for the spending. That said, just what are they paying for that would make them feel worthy to run the show? I suppose there is some sort of convention system there that is supported by Western money. Other than that, we do know that workers do not give money to people for fear the people will follow them for the money. Of course the Western overseers aren't going to let anyone encroach on their own territories, money or not. At the moment, money in Vietnam hasn't started accumulating significantly.....yet. But it is coming. Vietnam's economy is developing rapidly and with it will come capital accumulation. The day is not far off when VN's friends and workers won't need Western money, unless the friends over there have been brainwashed against having good businesses and good paying jobs. Just curious, CD, but are monies you provide the workers subject to conditions? This would pertain to money above and beyond the value of the lodging or transportation you might provide.
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Deleted
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Vietnam
Jun 2, 2013 10:38:31 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2013 10:38:31 GMT -5
Just curious, CD, but are monies you provide the workers subject to conditions? This would pertain to money above and beyond the value of the lodging or transportation you might provide. In general I think the silent presumption when people give money or lodging to the workers, is that the the principle the workers speak of and preach about, are the principles that they live by and do their best to further in the world. In this, people are extremely betrayed and bamboozled.
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Deleted
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Vietnam
Jun 2, 2013 10:52:38 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2013 10:52:38 GMT -5
There is an old principle that says "he who pays the piper calls the tune" and it does seem to be the way things work in the world. It is very rare that a payor would give freely and not expect to control things. There is no reason why the rich Western overseers would think any differently.....they are a product of their own culture. Of course they don't practice it at home and account to the givers for the spending. That said, just what are they paying for that would make them feel worthy to run the show? I suppose there is some sort of convention system there that is supported by Western money. Other than that, we do know that workers do not give money to people for fear the people will follow them for the money. Of course the Western overseers aren't going to let anyone encroach on their own territories, money or not. At the moment, money in Vietnam hasn't started accumulating significantly.....yet. But it is coming. Vietnam's economy is developing rapidly and with it will come capital accumulation. The day is not far off when VN's friends and workers won't need Western money, unless the friends over there have been brainwashed against having good businesses and good paying jobs. Just curious, CD, but are monies you provide the workers subject to conditions? This would pertain to money above and beyond the value of the lodging or transportation you might provide. Yes definitely. The conditions implied are that they would use the cash for reasonable personal expenses in the course of their duties. Of course few workers give any assurance or accounting that this is being done since everything is implied, but if I saw evidence otherwise I would take action, starting with a chat. However, I don't expect to control their activities within the broad conditions, which are very broad. For instance, if the workers spent a day on the ski hill on my money, I would have no problem with that. If they spent a day in the casino at the blackjack table, I wouldn't let that go with a shrug. The point of my previous post is that workers in Western countries do not account for the money they receive and avoid anyone controlling their activities on the basis of being given money. Yet the same workers require the workers in Vietnam to obey their rule ostensibly on the basis of money supplied to them, and presumably the superiority of the Western Way. There is something not right about that. Any thoughts on that?
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Vietnam
Jun 2, 2013 11:00:29 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2013 11:00:29 GMT -5
OK -- I will admit that in the business world, the principle that "The folks that pay for a service should also be the ones that decide what that service is." is legal and acceptable. Fair enough if the service is not forced upon the ´consumer' , as it would seem Mr Bau has felt it was in his country. Even if this principle is legal in the commercial world, it seems to be far from the story of the gospel -- According to Mr Bau (and my own understanding) this is not the gospel that they have given their lives for -- so I can understand their frustration -- I have felt the same frustration. "Hostile takeover" is a term used in the business world, when new capital can come in and claim ownership and the right to change the principles of an organization. Obviously what has happened in Vietnam -- Legal in the business world (except for the obvious deception used in getting workers into the country), but far from Christianity. At this stage, the complete lack of moral principle, and application of ecconomic might within 2x2ism doesn't surprize me any more. It does appear, at this point, that the "hostile takeover" terminology used in the corporate world is an appropriate parallel to what has happened in Vietnam. I understand that when Vietnam opened up again around 1990, Western overseers took the liberty of examining the Vietnam situation to see if they had gone offtrack or not. Recent events would give the impression that the Vietnamese folks were found offtrack and the Western folks have forced their ways upon them.
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Vietnam
Jun 2, 2013 11:28:06 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2013 11:28:06 GMT -5
I notice there is still a great deal of skepticism about religious freedom in Vietnam. The level of fear mongering I hear from insiders is quite high, and hardly justified. Vietnam has constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion. Vietnam is not on the list of Countries of Particular Concern for religious freedom.
Almost all of the conflict that gets wrongly attributed to religious repression in Vietnam is conflict over other issues. For example, religious leaders who participate in anti-government democracy activities (bravely) are subject to arrest but not for their religion, it's for their politics.
Here is an excerpt on the subject from a 2010 issue of The Economist, one of the world's most respected news reporting companies:
In 2010, some Catholics were arrested for trying to conduct a funeral on cemetery land which the government was in the process of relocating. Some arrests occurred, but it had nothing to do with religious freedom, per se, it was a land dispute. In North America, it would be akin to building a house on land which was expropriated by the government for a new road. Yet this gets trumped up as a religious freedom issue because the participants know it will play much better with the public.
When you read the letters to Edgar from a local Vietnamese friend, you can see that 100% of the writers' concern is wrongful acts by the foreign workers. There is no concern expressed over the fear of the government or any request for high secrecy in case Communist spies take him down for his religious beliefs. Yet the foreign workers are still playing a cloak and dagger game, much to the delight of many Westerners who think it their workers over there are being very brave by being there.
Most Christian groups, including the 6 million Catholics there, are worshiping openly and freely. The only ones who have something to fear are the ones who are not worshiping openly with government-required registration or have a foreign ministry in the country under false pretenses.
Not much good can come of such a scenario, and that seems to be what is playing out.
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