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Post by snow on Jul 23, 2012 20:49:00 GMT -5
It is futile to try and bring all of that scripture into understanding for you, Rat, I had said I wasn't going to pay any more heed to your posts...but again, I did my best to showe you what happened, that it was all meant to happen that way and in no way, was I saying that Jesus put Satan in anyone....that cannot be done unless that person is willing and ready! The sop was just pointing out to the other Apostles who Jesus was telling them that one of them would betray Him....that night no less. I was not asking for all of the scripture nor am I concerned about your beliefs. I just pointed out that since Jesus knew what Judas was going to do that he actually told Judas to get on with 'it', and that 'it' was an act that meant Judas would be damned, according to you, because he was following Satan. I presented another possibility. Jesus and Judas had discussed what was going to happen. and Judas was down with the plan. As was Jesus. And when the time came Jesus reminded Judas to get on with it. Blaming bad decisions on Satan is as old as genesis. Of course, the fact that someone had to point Jesus out would lead one to believe that jesus was not very well known. And if you believe Matthew 19:28 or Luke 22:28-30 then you realize that Jesus, full knowing what was going to happen, still treated Judas as one that would eat and drink at his table in his kingdom. No hint of anything less. The Judas story is not found in the earliest christian writings. There is no way Christianity can follow that logic. Judas was a bad dude and the devil made him do it. However, like you have pointed out. There would be no Christianity if he didn't do what is said he did. Don't expect any agreement though.
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Post by ts on Jul 23, 2012 21:14:10 GMT -5
Oh, are you the one who is tracking the every move of every overseer all the time? Nice try at diverting the question. You know that a working gong missing for a couple of days would raise questions. I know several who can tell you where overseers will be for the next few weeks and who can fill you in on schedule changes as they happen as well. It was a simple question, TS. Do you personally know of a worker who has flown off, unknown by the F&W, for the purpose of having a sexual encounter? Can you answer it or will you continue with your smoke-screen tactics? No. As you have pointed out, they are not financially accountable. Remember the question? How can this unaccountability cause harm, in reality or spiritually? No need. It is a simple question. Do you have personal knowledge of a worker that, unknown to the F&W, has taken a flight for the sole purpose of having a sexual encounter? Great, then have your friends post where the overseers have been and what they were doing with at least two witnesses to make sure they were doing what they say they are doing. It is extremely easy for an overseer to take off on a mission and not be accountable. Who is going to check up on him if he is claiming confidentiality and is given credit for having integrity? If he is given the "OK" from the other overseers as a truthful person, who would question him? What would it matter if they did question him? He is free to do what he wants. He is under no contract. Nothing legally binding that says he may not go anywhere he wishes and do what he wants. Why would an overseer raise any eyebrows traveling anywhere with his own money as long as he weren't doing anything illegal? The overseer makes the plans. He has the money. There are probably many things that the overseers do that should raise eyebrows. The overseers have proven themselves equal to the task of shaving off any eyebrows that might raise themselves up. That is because they are not God fearing and they are always right.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 24, 2012 7:45:31 GMT -5
Nice try at diverting the question. You know that a working gong missing for a couple of days would raise questions. I know several who can tell you where overseers will be for the next few weeks and who can fill you in on schedule changes as they happen as well. It was a simple question, TS. Do you personally know of a worker who has flown off, unknown by the F&W, for the purpose of having a sexual encounter? Can you answer it or will you continue with your smoke-screen tactics? No. As you have pointed out, they are not financially accountable. Remember the question? How can this unaccountability cause harm, in reality or spiritually? No need. It is a simple question. Do you have personal knowledge of a worker that, unknown to the F&W, has taken a flight for the sole purpose of having a sexual encounter? Great, then have your friends post where the overseers have been and what they were doing with at least two witnesses to make sure they were doing what they say they are doing. It is extremely easy for an overseer to take off on a mission and not be accountable. Who is going to check up on him if he is claiming confidentiality and is given credit for having integrity? If he is given the "OK" from the other overseers as a truthful person, who would question him? What would it matter if they did question him? He is free to do what he wants. He is under no contract. Nothing legally binding that says he may not go anywhere he wishes and do what he wants. Why would an overseer raise any eyebrows traveling anywhere with his own money as long as he weren't doing anything illegal? The overseer makes the plans. He has the money. There are probably many things that the overseers do that should raise eyebrows. The overseers have proven themselves equal to the task of shaving off any eyebrows that might raise themselves up. That is because they are not God fearing and they are always right. I sure wouldn't want to waste my time being a worker cop. If God can't be their guide, there's no use fo me trying. Maybe that could be a job for you ts. The friends could employ you as a private eye. The pay should be good.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 24, 2012 8:55:58 GMT -5
I was not asking for all of the scripture nor am I concerned about your beliefs. I just pointed out that since Jesus knew what Judas was going to do that he actually told Judas to get on with 'it', and that 'it' was an act that meant Judas would be damned, according to you, because he was following Satan. I presented another possibility. Jesus and Judas had discussed what was going to happen. and Judas was down with the plan. As was Jesus. And when the time came Jesus reminded Judas to get on with it. Blaming bad decisions on Satan is as old as genesis. Of course, the fact that someone had to point Jesus out would lead one to believe that jesus was not very well known. And if you believe Matthew 19:28 or Luke 22:28-30 then you realize that Jesus, full knowing what was going to happen, still treated Judas as one that would eat and drink at his table in his kingdom. No hint of anything less. The Judas story is not found in the earliest christian writings. There is no way Christianity can follow that logic. Judas was a bad dude and the devil made him do it. However, like you have pointed out. There would be no Christianity if he didn't do what is said he did. Don't expect any agreement though. It seems that according to the bible, that Jesus knew what would happen to him and he also knew which of His Apostles would betray Him....is it because He knew that tempation concerning the collection of money and power would be too strong for Judas I. to handle....possibly. IO think this is why the story of Jesus being part of the Trinity bears the best way to take this story because I don't think any of us knowing even that there would a likelihood of one of our closest associates would turn on us and betray us....but hey, siblings do it to one another often....but the real thing that has come to me is that Jesus knowing full well what the business His Father had sent Him to do, and that He had finished it, even to withstanding betrayal by one of His associates as well as one denied Him, plus all the others were scattered due to fear and confusion....I think that though the apostles knew that Jesus was the Son of God, they had in their minds that Jesus had come to deliver the Jews out of the hands of their enemies that had held them in captivity as long as they had.....they had not understood until the day of Pentecost, just what Jesus' death and resurrection actually meant to them....but back to Jesus, I wonder how many of us knowing in full what was to come about would we have stood still and let the betrayer bring the enemy into our favorite social place? I don't think so, I think we all would have made ourselves scarce. Jesus even told Pilate that this is what He'd been sent there for.....so Jesus knew from day one just exactly who and what was going to go against Him...
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Post by ts on Jul 24, 2012 11:45:06 GMT -5
Great, then have your friends post where the overseers have been and what they were doing with at least two witnesses to make sure they were doing what they say they are doing. It is extremely easy for an overseer to take off on a mission and not be accountable. Who is going to check up on him if he is claiming confidentiality and is given credit for having integrity? If he is given the "OK" from the other overseers as a truthful person, who would question him? What would it matter if they did question him? He is free to do what he wants. He is under no contract. Nothing legally binding that says he may not go anywhere he wishes and do what he wants. Why would an overseer raise any eyebrows traveling anywhere with his own money as long as he weren't doing anything illegal? The overseer makes the plans. He has the money. There are probably many things that the overseers do that should raise eyebrows. The overseers have proven themselves equal to the task of shaving off any eyebrows that might raise themselves up. That is because they are not God fearing and they are always right. I sure wouldn't want to waste my time being a worker cop. If God can't be their guide, there's no use fo me trying. Maybe that could be a job for you ts. The friends could employ you as a private eye. The pay should be good. I recon that the friends and workers would probably be just about as generous to me as the pharisees were to Jesus when he pointed out their hypocrisy and the damage it was doing to the people. Jesus did not need a private investigator. He had discernment through the Holy Spirit and that is what he imparted to his disciples. The workers and friends obviously do not have that same discernment as they, like rational, do not see the spiritual damage that overseers inflict when they engage in sexual immorality and then hide it.
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Post by snow on Jul 24, 2012 13:35:36 GMT -5
There is no way Christianity can follow that logic. Judas was a bad dude and the devil made him do it. However, like you have pointed out. There would be no Christianity if he didn't do what is said he did. Don't expect any agreement though. It seems that according to the bible, that Jesus knew what would happen to him and he also knew which of His Apostles would betray Him....is it because He knew that tempation concerning the collection of money and power would be too strong for Judas I. to handle....possibly. IO think this is why the story of Jesus being part of the Trinity bears the best way to take this story because I don't think any of us knowing even that there would a likelihood of one of our closest associates would turn on us and betray us....but hey, siblings do it to one another often....but the real thing that has come to me is that Jesus knowing full well what the business His Father had sent Him to do, and that He had finished it, even to withstanding betrayal by one of His associates as well as one denied Him, plus all the others were scattered due to fear and confusion....I think that though the apostles knew that Jesus was the Son of God, they had in their minds that Jesus had come to deliver the Jews out of the hands of their enemies that had held them in captivity as long as they had.....they had not understood until the day of Pentecost, just what Jesus' death and resurrection actually meant to them....but back to Jesus, I wonder how many of us knowing in full what was to come about would we have stood still and let the betrayer bring the enemy into our favorite social place? I don't think so, I think we all would have made ourselves scarce. Jesus even told Pilate that this is what He'd been sent there for.....so Jesus knew from day one just exactly who and what was going to go against Him... Or, Jesus and Judas had an agreement and Judas fulfilled the agreement?
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Post by rational on Jul 24, 2012 14:43:22 GMT -5
It was a simple question, TS. Do you personally know of a worker who has flown off, unknown by the F&W, for the purpose of having a sexual encounter? Can you answer it or will you continue with your smoke-screen tactics? Great, then have your friends post where the overseers have been and what they were doing with at least two witnesses to make sure they were doing what they say they are doing. Smoke screen it is. I think it is safe to assume that you do not have any personal knowledge of the claims you made. Sure and if he has a cloak of invisibility he can sneak here and there as well. The question was, and remains, Do you know of a worker who has flown off for a sexual encounter? While I know you are very concerned about the money it does not seem that those who give it are. But they do know where the workers are and if one were to disappear for a few days it would be noticed and case questions to be asked. But given the demand for their presence at the homes of various friends, disappearing for a few days would raise a lot of questions.
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Post by rational on Jul 24, 2012 14:44:59 GMT -5
I sure wouldn't want to waste my time being a worker cop. If God can't be their guide, there's no use fo me trying. Maybe that could be a job for you ts. The friends could employ you as a private eye. The pay should be good. Really good if you just make up the reports.
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Post by rational on Jul 24, 2012 14:50:00 GMT -5
Jesus did not need a private investigator. He had discernment through the Holy Spirit and that is what he imparted to his disciples. The workers and friends obviously do not have that same discernment as they, like rational, do not see the spiritual damage that overseers inflict when they engage in sexual immorality and then hide it. The sad part is that this spirituality is a large part of your life but you have been unable to point out how the lack of financial accountability on a worker's part could harm a person spiritually. I give you funds. You take them and use them. I ask you what you did with the funds. You do not answer. Am I harmed spiritually?
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Post by quizzer on Jul 24, 2012 16:48:25 GMT -5
It seems that according to the bible, that Jesus knew what would happen to him and he also knew which of His Apostles would betray Him....is it because He knew that tempation concerning the collection of money and power would be too strong for Judas I. to handle....possibly. IO think this is why the story of Jesus being part of the Trinity bears the best way to take this story because I don't think any of us knowing even that there would a likelihood of one of our closest associates would turn on us and betray us....but hey, siblings do it to one another often....but the real thing that has come to me is that Jesus knowing full well what the business His Father had sent Him to do, and that He had finished it, even to withstanding betrayal by one of His associates as well as one denied Him, plus all the others were scattered due to fear and confusion....I think that though the apostles knew that Jesus was the Son of God, they had in their minds that Jesus had come to deliver the Jews out of the hands of their enemies that had held them in captivity as long as they had.....they had not understood until the day of Pentecost, just what Jesus' death and resurrection actually meant to them....but back to Jesus, I wonder how many of us knowing in full what was to come about would we have stood still and let the betrayer bring the enemy into our favorite social place? I don't think so, I think we all would have made ourselves scarce. Jesus even told Pilate that this is what He'd been sent there for.....so Jesus knew from day one just exactly who and what was going to go against Him... Or, Jesus and Judas had an agreement and Judas fulfilled the agreement? That's been one interpretation that I've heard. It's plausible, but it doesn't hold with the rest of the tale of Judas - being plagued by demons and commiting suicide. Joseph of Arimathea, being on the Sanhedrin, was privy to Christ being crucified before Christ was even arrested. He simply arranged for Christ's body to be buried. It just seems that, if Judas had truly had an agreement with Christ to betray him, Judas would not have been so afflicted.
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Post by ts on Jul 24, 2012 19:37:20 GMT -5
Great, then have your friends post where the overseers have been and what they were doing with at least two witnesses to make sure they were doing what they say they are doing. Smoke screen it is. I think it is safe to assume that you do not have any personal knowledge of the claims you made. Sure and if he has a cloak of invisibility he can sneak here and there as well. The question was, and remains, Do you know of a worker who has flown off for a sexual encounter? While I know you are very concerned about the money it does not seem that those who give it are. But they do know where the workers are and if one were to disappear for a few days it would be noticed and case questions to be asked. But given the demand for their presence at the homes of various friends, disappearing for a few days would raise a lot of questions. One does not have to disappear. Just lie about why they are going where they are going. It is very easy to make it seem like a noble cause to fly across country for any reason if you are an overseer. It is easy to word things in such a way that will not raise suspicion and others will think that you are going on a confidential matter that cannot be discussed. And the friends, being confidential and respectful people, will not ask details or check up on the activities of an overseer assuming the best out of their spiritual leaders. It is difficult for the friends who have given that much credit to an overseer to believe that they could use their money in an immoral way contrary to their beliefs. I know that any explanation of spiritual damage will not suffice for you because you do not believe in spirit. You would describe any damage done as either no damage or some other type of damage. I am not actually trying to convince you but validate what others are experiencing. all you are doing is presenting very well the same sort of arguments that the the overseers use when they convince the friends they are wrong for bringing up abuse issues. The overseers also don't believe that the friends can be spiritually abused by anything the workers decide to do with whatever is entrusted with them.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 24, 2012 19:48:08 GMT -5
Jesus did not need a private investigator. He had discernment through the Holy Spirit and that is what he imparted to his disciples. The workers and friends obviously do not have that same discernment as they, like rational, do not see the spiritual damage that overseers inflict when they engage in sexual immorality and then hide it. The sad part is that this spirituality is a large part of your life but you have been unable to point out how the lack of financial accountability on a worker's part could harm a person spiritually. I give you funds. You take them and use them. I ask you what you did with the funds. You do not answer. Am I harmed spiritually? No
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Post by ts on Jul 24, 2012 19:49:29 GMT -5
Judas did not have an "agreement" with Jesus to betray him.
Judas was no different than we are. We have a choice to be led by Jesus or satan. The fruits of following Jesus is not betrayal of Jesus or anyone who has the spirit of Christ.
We have the same opportunity in our day to prove who we follow. Whatever we do to even the least of those who follow Jesus is the same thing we would do to Jesus. If the workers excommunicate the friends for standing up for what is righteous, that is what they would do to Jesus also. If the friends support the workers excommunicating Jesus, they are guilty of the same thing. they are like the parents of the blind man who was healed.
Judas, like Esau was one of those who had gone so far that he had his conscience seared with a hot iron. Their remorse was not repentance. I think in our day they would call them sociopaths. People who do not have a conscience and only act out of self interest even if they seem to be doing "good" things for other people.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 24, 2012 19:58:51 GMT -5
Judas did not have an "agreement" with Jesus to betray him. Judas was no different than we are. We have a choice to be led by Jesus or satan. The fruits of following Jesus is not betrayal of Jesus or anyone who has the spirit of Christ. We have the same opportunity in our day to prove who we follow. Whatever we do to even the least of those who follow Jesus is the same thing we would do to Jesus. If the workers excommunicate the friends for standing up for what is righteous, that is what they would do to Jesus also. If the friends support the workers excommunicating Jesus, they are guilty of the same thing. they are like the parents of the blind man who was healed. Judas, like Esau was one of those who had gone so far that he had his conscience seared with a hot iron. Their remorse was not repentance. I think in our day they would call them sociopaths. People who do not have a conscience and only act out of self interest even if they seem to be doing "good" things for other people. Workers are your obsession. Why?
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Post by ts on Jul 24, 2012 20:07:26 GMT -5
Judas did not have an "agreement" with Jesus to betray him. Judas was no different than we are. We have a choice to be led by Jesus or satan. The fruits of following Jesus is not betrayal of Jesus or anyone who has the spirit of Christ. We have the same opportunity in our day to prove who we follow. Whatever we do to even the least of those who follow Jesus is the same thing we would do to Jesus. If the workers excommunicate the friends for standing up for what is righteous, that is what they would do to Jesus also. If the friends support the workers excommunicating Jesus, they are guilty of the same thing. they are like the parents of the blind man who was healed. Judas, like Esau was one of those who had gone so far that he had his conscience seared with a hot iron. Their remorse was not repentance. I think in our day they would call them sociopaths. People who do not have a conscience and only act out of self interest even if they seem to be doing "good" things for other people. Workers are your obsession. Why? Why are you still beating your wife? Actually, this is a board where there are more than a few people who know the workers and what they do. The workers have actually caused a lot of problems by preaching false doctrine and abusing people. The workers are the spiritual leaders of the "Truth". That is why many people focus on them here. It is really convenient and not even a coincidence that Jesus spoke of the same sorts of things that the workers are doing when he spoke of the pharisees. I do not think that Jesus was "obsessed" with the pharisees even though he did mention them often in scriptures. I do believe that Jesus did other things that are not even recorded. The TMB is a very focused discussion board. If you had your way, what would the discussions look like here?
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 24, 2012 20:10:52 GMT -5
Workers are your obsession. Why? Why are you still beating your wife? Actually, this is a board where there are more than a few people who know the workers and what they do. The workers have actually caused a lot of problems by preaching false doctrine and abusing people. The workers are the spiritual leaders of the "Truth". That is why many people focus on them here. It is really convenient and not even a coincidence that Jesus spoke of the same sorts of things that the workers are doing when he spoke of the pharisees. I do not think that Jesus was "obsessed" with the pharisees even though he did mention them often in scriptures. I do believe that Jesus did other things that are not even recorded. The TMB is a very focused discussion board. If you had your way, what would the discussions look like here? So you are saying the workers are pharisees? That would make you a pharisee as well because have told us you are a worker still.
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Post by ts on Jul 24, 2012 20:28:12 GMT -5
Why are you still beating your wife? Actually, this is a board where there are more than a few people who know the workers and what they do. The workers have actually caused a lot of problems by preaching false doctrine and abusing people. The workers are the spiritual leaders of the "Truth". That is why many people focus on them here. It is really convenient and not even a coincidence that Jesus spoke of the same sorts of things that the workers are doing when he spoke of the pharisees. I do not think that Jesus was "obsessed" with the pharisees even though he did mention them often in scriptures. I do believe that Jesus did other things that are not even recorded. The TMB is a very focused discussion board. If you had your way, what would the discussions look like here? So you are saying the workers are pharisees? That would make you a pharisee as well because have told us you are a worker still. So do you say that I am a worker? Do you say that the workers are pharisees? What would qualify as a modern day pharisee to you? William Lewis said that the workers and friends are the only ones who have the possibility of qualifying as pharisees since they are the only ones who know the truth as it is in Jesus. Do you agree with William?
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Post by sharonw on Jul 24, 2012 21:20:21 GMT -5
It seems that according to the bible, that Jesus knew what would happen to him and he also knew which of His Apostles would betray Him....is it because He knew that tempation concerning the collection of money and power would be too strong for Judas I. to handle....possibly. IO think this is why the story of Jesus being part of the Trinity bears the best way to take this story because I don't think any of us knowing even that there would a likelihood of one of our closest associates would turn on us and betray us....but hey, siblings do it to one another often....but the real thing that has come to me is that Jesus knowing full well what the business His Father had sent Him to do, and that He had finished it, even to withstanding betrayal by one of His associates as well as one denied Him, plus all the others were scattered due to fear and confusion....I think that though the apostles knew that Jesus was the Son of God, they had in their minds that Jesus had come to deliver the Jews out of the hands of their enemies that had held them in captivity as long as they had.....they had not understood until the day of Pentecost, just what Jesus' death and resurrection actually meant to them....but back to Jesus, I wonder how many of us knowing in full what was to come about would we have stood still and let the betrayer bring the enemy into our favorite social place? I don't think so, I think we all would have made ourselves scarce. Jesus even told Pilate that this is what He'd been sent there for.....so Jesus knew from day one just exactly who and what was going to go against Him... Or, Jesus and Judas had an agreement and Judas fulfilled the agreement? I don't think that is really possible due to the fact that Judas tried to undo what he'd done when he learned that Jesus was to be crucified.....an innocent man was going to His death and Judas knew that he had helped that to be possible....thus JI went out and took his own life..... Jesus as the Son of God had to have known all the time what His life would be like on earth....He had to have known that none of the scriptures in his regard would come to pass if there had not been certain people in a certain condition at the right time and place to bring that about....otherwords, perhaps the Father in heaven was moving people about like a giant chess piece? I've wondered.
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Post by snow on Jul 24, 2012 22:19:28 GMT -5
Or, Jesus and Judas had an agreement and Judas fulfilled the agreement? That's been one interpretation that I've heard. It's plausible, but it doesn't hold with the rest of the tale of Judas - being plagued by demons and commiting suicide. Joseph of Arimathea, being on the Sanhedrin, was privy to Christ being crucified before Christ was even arrested. He simply arranged for Christ's body to be buried. It just seems that, if Judas had truly had an agreement with Christ to betray him, Judas would not have been so afflicted. Maybe, maybe not. Guess we'll never know. However, I still believe we wouldn't have Christianity it Judas hadn't got Jesus crucified. After all, that is the basis of every Christians' salvation is it not. Jesus dying for all your sins so you can all go to heaven? So Judas did everyone a favor in that case. As a non Christian, I don't think any of this happened the way it's said, just to make it clear. I am not partial to any one story iow.
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Post by snow on Jul 24, 2012 22:23:48 GMT -5
Or, Jesus and Judas had an agreement and Judas fulfilled the agreement? I don't think that is really possible due to the fact that Judas tried to undo what he'd done when he learned that Jesus was to be crucified.....an innocent man was going to His death and Judas knew that he had helped that to be possible....thus JI went out and took his own life..... Jesus as the Son of God had to have known all the time what His life would be like on earth....He had to have known that none of the scriptures in his regard would come to pass if there had not been certain people in a certain condition at the right time and place to bring that about....otherwords, perhaps the Father in heaven was moving people about like a giant chess piece? I've wondered. So, that takes to the age old philosophical question. Does man really have free will? or is God playing chess? Also, maybe Judas really loved Jesus and did what he wanted and then was overcome with grief and weakened and tried to save him. When he couldn't, he killed himself. Fact is, we really don't know for sure what happened.
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nsis
New Member
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Post by nsis on Jul 24, 2012 22:59:36 GMT -5
I don't quite know to do this 'blockquote' thing. anyway, ts said: William Lewis said that the workers and friends are the only ones who have the possibility of qualifying as pharisees since they are the only ones who know the truth as it is in Jesus. Do you agree with William? I knew William well. And I think that the Lord may have have revealed things to him that don't necessarily get revealed to all. He was a man that loved God & still is loving Him where he is. He loved God, His anointed people and the souls of a perishing world. He was a searching, listening man. He became dismayed/upset when he thought the behaviors of people might distract from their being able to hear the Spirit. -As in taking lots of notes in mtg thus distracting one from hearing all that could be experienced otherwise. Does anyone else remember him saying that before esp a conv mtg? Anyway I think that there were & still are Pharisees w/ a cap. P. Also that there are pharisaical persons within the fellowship. - As in certain people being 'hypocritical, censorious, self righteous' as per 'Merriam-Webster'. Could that be what Wm meant?
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Post by rational on Jul 25, 2012 6:35:57 GMT -5
Or, Jesus and Judas had an agreement and Judas fulfilled the agreement? That's been one interpretation that I've heard. It's plausible, but it doesn't hold with the rest of the tale of Judas - being plagued by demons and commiting suicide. Joseph of Arimathea, being on the Sanhedrin, was privy to Christ being crucified before Christ was even arrested. He simply arranged for Christ's body to be buried. It just seems that, if Judas had truly had an agreement with Christ to betray him, Judas would not have been so afflicted. Perhaps the plan did not progress as expected. Perhaps it had been a ploy to get arrested and force confrontation as publicity for the followers of Jesus and just went too far. Of course Judas would feel badly and perhaps did kill himself. Or there was a little embellishment.
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Post by rational on Jul 25, 2012 6:41:38 GMT -5
Judas did not have an "agreement" with Jesus to betray him. Yet Jesus was aware of it and encouraged him to move forward with it. Sounds like they were in agreement to me, But in this case it was Jesus who was telling Judas to move forward. Tough to say Judas was following Satan when he was doing what Jesus told him to do.
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Post by emy on Jul 25, 2012 11:00:04 GMT -5
Didn't the "undo" part come after the crucifixion?
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Post by Greg on Jul 25, 2012 11:05:26 GMT -5
Didn't the "undo" part come after the crucifixion? Before, but after Jesus was taken.
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Post by quizzer on Jul 25, 2012 11:57:31 GMT -5
That's been one interpretation that I've heard. It's plausible, but it doesn't hold with the rest of the tale of Judas - being plagued by demons and commiting suicide. Joseph of Arimathea, being on the Sanhedrin, was privy to Christ being crucified before Christ was even arrested. He simply arranged for Christ's body to be buried. It just seems that, if Judas had truly had an agreement with Christ to betray him, Judas would not have been so afflicted. Maybe, maybe not. Guess we'll never know. However, I still believe we wouldn't have Christianity it Judas hadn't got Jesus crucified. After all, that is the basis of every Christians' salvation is it not. Jesus dying for all your sins so you can all go to heaven? So Judas did everyone a favor in that case. As a non Christian, I don't think any of this happened the way it's said, just to make it clear. I am not partial to any one story iow. I don't think Judas' betrayal was necessary for Christ being crucified. In the gospels, Judas did this and Christ knew. However, Jerusalem was a hotbed of contention. The Jews were upset with the Pharisees for ruling over them. The Pharisees were upset with the Romans for dominating them. Most of the middle class and the poor was supporting Christ because He gave them healing, comfort, and freedom from fear. All of these elements would cause someone to want to crucify Christ because He threatened the social control of the masses. Judas was just the lucky devil. If not him, it would've been someone else.
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Post by ts on Jul 25, 2012 16:00:33 GMT -5
Judas did not have an "agreement" with Jesus to betray him. Yet Jesus was aware of it and encouraged him to move forward with it. Sounds like they were in agreement to me, But in this case it was Jesus who was telling Judas to move forward. Tough to say Judas was following Satan when he was doing what Jesus told him to do. But you don't even believe any of this happened. Especially for the reason that it happened. The whole story is to you a myth, at best. It isn't a living story with real people with real feelings and especially not with any people who have a soul or spirit. Your conclusions, therefore, make no real sense. You don't think it is possible for a man to love his enemies enough to give his life for him even though he is being betrayed by him. Neither did Judas believe that. That is why he could find no place of repentance.
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Post by rational on Jul 25, 2012 16:10:07 GMT -5
But you don't even believe any of this happened. I am looking at the logic of the story unsullied by the distortion of religious beliefs. This is not the first time and probably not the last time something like this has happened. It is, as you said, a story. I am sure there are bits and pieces of truth woven in with the rest. It is not a bad story and has served billions well. Is this your claim? I am sure if there were people they had feelings. A soul and spirit have yet to be proved. OK. If you say so. This is not supported in the bible. It was for all mankind, not a single individual. No one knows what the results might have been. Again, I don't think this is supported by the bible either. He killed himself. Do you know why?
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