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Post by ts on Jul 22, 2012 15:38:10 GMT -5
Rational, I am not saying that your view and questions are not reasonable and rational. They are, in fact, very reasonable and rational. And so is the view of the overseers. I believe what is confusing and hurtful to many of the friends and workers is that they go to these men expecting them to be compassionate from a spiritual standpoint rather than from reason.
I do believe that the workers are acting very reasonably in their dealings with abuse and the general running of the church, for that matter. I do believe that they are running things that more or less (allowing for mistakes here and there) fit in with your suggestions as a reasonable and rational person. I do not, however, believe that they are running the church based on the leading and direction of the Holy Spirit and the fear of God.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 22, 2012 18:43:09 GMT -5
Whenever I have mentioned workers being married here, one of the arguments the friends have is that they could not be married because there might be children. That is when Bert posts his incredibly funny picture of a family of 12 kids showing up at one of the friend's homes with a moving van to stay the night. Clearly there are already homosexual workers and overseers. They are workers engaged in homosexual relationships and the friends really have no way of knowing unless some years later they find out that he got caught once or twice and had a good "talking to" about it. Clearly the friends and workers do not feel that homosexual relationships affect the gospel message that they are accustomed to hearing from the workers. If Harry Brownlee's homosexuality did not affect his message, then why can workers not have an openly gay relationship. Wouldn't that be more honest? How was the message of Judas while he was with the disciples? Perhaps he did not preach, but our ordinary words and walk speak also, right? It's just a question to ponder, I don't have an easy answer. What, I think we all forget that for a time Judas I. was as much a Jesus follower as any of the others...however there in those last weeks of Jesus' life and we do read that in the bible when Satan entered into Judas I. And Jesus knew exactly when that happened for didn't Jesus tell Judas to go and do what he was to do? I've thought of it like this, there's been men/women in the work who have preached sermons and most likely had new converts, then later on they left the work and some left the fellowship...does that mean that those sermons and convicts are no longer justified?
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Post by sharonw on Jul 22, 2012 18:46:14 GMT -5
I think I remember that one of the first visits that ended in excommunication for an elder and his wife, the wife tried to get some answers about the "Practicing of homosexuality" but that was completely shut down and all that was said "Do you support the workers in this....whatever was the issue at that time." And since the couple ahd already said no, there was nothing but the axe to fall.....I think that some of the top workers in that issue knew all about the homosexual actions in the workers and some were actually guilty of it. Sharon, do you recall if you read that or heard that or reasoned that? I heard that in one of the tapes....the elder's wife, tried to get that addressed but naturally she was put off.....
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Post by sharonw on Jul 22, 2012 19:10:26 GMT -5
Several issues came to a head about the time the Jim Knipe tapes were made. Gwen Fipke told something to someone that was false. Willis Propp's financial activities and the incorporation of the Truth in Alberta were other issues. One guy makes a reference to homosexuality activities in his comments to Jim Knipe. I don't have a link to the tapes for those who haven't heard them. Seems like there was a growing schism in the fellowship around 1999. thelyingtruth.info/?f=exc&id=alberta_audio&clip=6It is in clip six...I was remembering the woman but it was the elder himself....
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Post by ts on Jul 22, 2012 19:27:54 GMT -5
Whenever I have mentioned workers being married here, one of the arguments the friends have is that they could not be married because there might be children. That is when Bert posts his incredibly funny picture of a family of 12 kids showing up at one of the friend's homes with a moving van to stay the night. Clearly there are already homosexual workers and overseers. They are workers engaged in homosexual relationships and the friends really have no way of knowing unless some years later they find out that he got caught once or twice and had a good "talking to" about it. Clearly the friends and workers do not feel that homosexual relationships affect the gospel message that they are accustomed to hearing from the workers. If Harry Brownlee's homosexuality did not affect his message, then why can workers not have an openly gay relationship. Wouldn't that be more honest? How was the message of Judas while he was with the disciples? Perhaps he did not preach, but our ordinary words and walk speak also, right? It's just a question to ponder, I don't have an easy answer. Of course the message of Judas was affected by the spirit that entered into his heart. I don't know of any specific scriptures that say exactly how Judas' words were affected as we don't have many sermons of his or others of the 12 disciples. I don't think Judas was any different than any other preacher whom the devil enters into and gets greedy. I don't see why Jesus' choosing Judas as one of the 12 makes him immune to damaging souls with a false spirit and false message. I also don't see any reason that the disciples would be any more or less discerning towards that spirit than people are today. Jesus told them plainly what was going on with Judas and they could not really comprehend. I think that should serve as a warning to us that we need to be in the Spirit as Jesus was or else we too can be deceived by "God's chosen". Just look at the damage that Judas did. It was he who led to the flock being scattered and not standing by Jesus. It was he who brought so much confusion and the betrayal and death of Jesus. Those were discouraging and fearful times that we get the luxury of being "armchair quarterbacks" about. We are in no different times. Jesus is among us and there are those among the ministry who would betray him again. They are held in high regard and they have just as much murder in their hearts. They seem to be "preaching truth" but their message is skewed and twisted. and, yes, they are hurting souls and sowing confusion and doubt. It is only God's grace and redemptive power that is saving people from that. It would be wrong to say that these deceivers are doing a lot of good because of the opportunities they present for Christ to redeem what they are doing.
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Post by rational on Jul 22, 2012 21:41:40 GMT -5
The questions I asked were not answered. Given the F&W obsession with the workers and where they are, do you actually know of anyone that flew off for a couple of days, unknown to anyone, to have a sexual encounter with some woman? And it is still unanswered. No, I don't believe in it. But go with spiritual damage. Show how can this be caused by a worker who is not willing to be held accountable for his financial affairs? You give a worker $10.00. A week later you see him/her and ask "What did you do with the $10.00?" And the worker says, "You gave it as a gift. I would rather not tell you what I did with the $10.00. I do not feel I need to justify how I used your gift." Spiritual damage? Because you do not know/approve how someone spend a gift you gave them?
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Post by ts on Jul 22, 2012 21:58:17 GMT -5
And it is still unanswered. If you do not believe in God or the spirit, then you do not believe in spiritual damage. You do not believe that a loss of faith in God is a bad thing. You also do not recognize spiritual damage to a group of people when the leaders are being controlled by other spirits besides the Holy Spirit. No, I don't believe in it. But go with spiritual damage. Show how can this be caused by a worker who is not willing to be held accountable for his financial affairs? You give a worker $10.00. A week later you see him/her and ask "What did you do with the $10.00?" And the worker says, "You gave it as a gift. I would rather not tell you what I did with the $10.00. I do not feel I need to justify how I used your gift." Spiritual damage? Because you do not know/approve how someone spend a gift you gave them? [/quote] huh?... Like I said, I am not writing what I do to convince anyone to believe in God. Nor am I writing to explain spiritual damage. I am writing to those who already have been abused and need validation. You probably won't get any satisfaction out of this discussion. However, you will be delighted to know that there are those who do.
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Post by rational on Jul 22, 2012 22:15:57 GMT -5
Rational, I am not saying that your view and questions are not reasonable and rational. They are, in fact, very reasonable and rational. And so is the view of the overseers. I believe what is confusing and hurtful to many of the friends and workers is that they go to these men expecting them to be compassionate from a spiritual standpoint rather than from reason. And you feel people would be better served is the workers were irrational but spiritual compassionate? Given the many, many opinions I have read on this message board alone describing the will of god and the attributes of god this seems to be as much a matter of the workers not acting as you think they should. I mean, they have abandoned the practice of dashing babies against the rocks and there hasn't been a good stoning of disrespectful children for a long time, and those were both recorded as being the will of god and the law of the land.
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Post by rational on Jul 22, 2012 22:44:21 GMT -5
Just look at the damage that Judas did. It was he who led to the flock being scattered and not standing by Jesus. Are you thinking this through? To your beliefs, this was a role that was was essential to the situation. No betrayal, no death -> no sacrifice, no resurrection. Judas was an integral part of the plan as presented.And how do you know that what you consider 'betrayal' today is not just as essential as the service that Judas preformed? Yet how many of the others were willing to sacrifice all, their life and (probably according to their belief) their eternal soul so the proposed plan could move forward? According to christian belief, not betraying Jesus and saving his life would have been the worst possible outcome. No hymns about the cleansing blood and the great sacrifice. No stories about the god who offered his/her son for the sins of others. No christianity. It would be wrong to say that Judas did anything bad. The result of his actions became the centerpiece of christianity. This is like thanking god when a child survives being run over by a car but there is little thanks to god when the car kills the child outright.
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Post by rational on Jul 22, 2012 22:51:13 GMT -5
I am writing to those who already have been abused and need validation. You probably won't get any satisfaction out of this discussion. However, you will be delighted to know that there are those who do. This is BS. The truth is that you made two claims and cannot validate either of them. And while you post about workers flying off to have sexual encounters it seems that you do not have knowledge that it actually happens. Or even explain how, when worker's every move is tracked, one could disappear for a couple of days without raising eyebrows. You do not have to explain spiritual damage. Just explain how a worker not willing to share financial details can cause damage of any kind. How does being accountable financially prevent damage - spiritual or otherwise?
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Post by ts on Jul 22, 2012 22:51:57 GMT -5
Rational, I am not saying that your view and questions are not reasonable and rational. They are, in fact, very reasonable and rational. And so is the view of the overseers. I believe what is confusing and hurtful to many of the friends and workers is that they go to these men expecting them to be compassionate from a spiritual standpoint rather than from reason. And you feel people would be better served is the workers were irrational but spiritual compassionate? Given the many, many opinions I have read on this message board alone describing the will of god and the attributes of god this seems to be as much a matter of the workers not acting as you think they should. I mean, they have abandoned the practice of dashing babies against the rocks and there hasn't been a good stoning of disrespectful children for a long time, and those were both recorded as being the will of god and the law of the land. I am saying that the overseers I have spoken with and know excel in winning arguments and are very rational about it all. This sort of leadership suits many of the friends but alienates others. I do not believe that the overseers' style is at all Godly and compassionate any more than yours is however "right" they may be. The friends who are alienated by such methods are the ones I am really speaking to. You bringing up doubts about having a fear of God only identifies you more with the overseers who fear man rather than God.
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Post by ts on Jul 22, 2012 22:55:17 GMT -5
I am writing to those who already have been abused and need validation. You probably won't get any satisfaction out of this discussion. However, you will be delighted to know that there are those who do. This is BS. The truth is that you made two claims and cannot validate either of them. And while you post about workers flying off to have sexual encounters it seems that you do not have knowledge that it actually happens. Or even explain how, when worker's every move is tracked, one could disappear for a couple of days without raising eyebrows. You do not have to explain spiritual damage. Just explain how a worker not willing to share financial details can cause damage of any kind. How does being accountable financially prevent damage - spiritual or otherwise? Oh, are you the one who is tracking the every move of every overseer all the time? Or do you know of anyone who is tracking the every move of every overseer all the time? Are you the one who is keeping up with how they spend the money given to them? If so, can you please post an itinerary of every overseer for the past 15 years?
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Post by ts on Jul 22, 2012 23:05:07 GMT -5
Just look at the damage that Judas did. It was he who led to the flock being scattered and not standing by Jesus. Are you thinking this through? To your beliefs, this was a role that was was essential to the situation. No betrayal, no death -> no sacrifice, no resurrection. Judas was an integral part of the plan as presented.And how do you know that what you consider 'betrayal' today is not just as essential as the service that Judas preformed? Yet how many of the others were willing to sacrifice all, their life and (probably according to their belief) their eternal soul so the proposed plan could move forward? According to christian belief, not betraying Jesus and saving his life would have been the worst possible outcome. No hymns about the cleansing blood and the great sacrifice. No stories about the god who offered his/her son for the sins of others. No christianity. It would be wrong to say that Judas did anything bad. The result of his actions became the centerpiece of christianity. This is like thanking god when a child survives being run over by a car but there is little thanks to god when the car kills the child outright. Judas was no hero. God's kingdom does not work off of the "yin-yang" theory. That is, it does not work off of "You can't have light without darkness." God is light and truth and love and in Him is no darkness at all. Judas was led by satan because he allowed himself to be led by him. I don't think satan has to look so very hard to find people who are sitting on the fence. Even among preachers. He is always looking for a chink in the armour. Judas didn't have to betray Jesus. Peter did not have to deny him. It was a matter of being prepared for the test which they weren't.
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Post by rational on Jul 23, 2012 0:36:09 GMT -5
Oh, are you the one who is tracking the every move of every overseer all the time? Nice try at diverting the question. You know that a working gong missing for a couple of days would raise questions. I know several who can tell you where overseers will be for the next few weeks and who can fill you in on schedule changes as they happen as well. It was a simple question, TS. Do you personally know of a worker who has flown off, unknown by the F&W, for the purpose of having a sexual encounter? Can you answer it or will you continue with your smoke-screen tactics? No. As you have pointed out, they are not financially accountable. Remember the question? How can this unaccountability cause harm, in reality or spiritually? No need. It is a simple question. Do you have personal knowledge of a worker that, unknown to the F&W, has taken a flight for the sole purpose of having a sexual encounter?
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Post by rational on Jul 23, 2012 0:52:56 GMT -5
Who else sacrificed themselves, and their eternal life? Jesus knew what he was going to do and didn't stop him. In fact he encouraged Judas to get on with the plan. Imagine knowing that your actions were going to set you up as the bad guy but having the courage and conviction to proceed. Without someone to betray Jesus the series of events leading to the big sacrifice falls flat. God could hardly smite his son and have it be meaningful. No matter who did the leading it was a required/essential part of the plot. If they didn't others would have had to. Peter was an object lesson and Judas was the go-to man to set the train in motion. It is clear Jesus was on board with the plan. He knew about the part Judas would play. He knew, according to the bible, what the end game was. Judas was a key actor.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 23, 2012 9:10:29 GMT -5
How was the message of Judas while he was with the disciples? Perhaps he did not preach, but our ordinary words and walk speak also, right? It's just a question to ponder, I don't have an easy answer. Of course the message of Judas was affected by the spirit that entered into his heart. I don't know of any specific scriptures that say exactly how Judas' words were affected as we don't have many sermons of his or others of the 12 disciples. I don't think Judas was any different than any other preacher whom the devil enters into and gets greedy. I don't see why Jesus' choosing Judas as one of the 12 makes him immune to damaging souls with a false spirit and false message. I also don't see any reason that the disciples would be any more or less discerning towards that spirit than people are today. Jesus told them plainly what was going on with Judas and they could not really comprehend. I think that should serve as a warning to us that we need to be in the Spirit as Jesus was or else we too can be deceived by "God's chosen". Just look at the damage that Judas did. It was he who led to the flock being scattered and not standing by Jesus. It was he who brought so much confusion and the betrayal and death of Jesus. Those were discouraging and fearful times that we get the luxury of being "armchair quarterbacks" about. We are in no different times. Jesus is among us and there are those among the ministry who would betray him again. They are held in high regard and they have just as much murder in their hearts. They seem to be "preaching truth" but their message is skewed and twisted. and, yes, they are hurting souls and sowing confusion and doubt. It is only God's grace and redemptive power that is saving people from that. It would be wrong to say that these deceivers are doing a lot of good because of the opportunities they present for Christ to redeem what they are doing. I don't get the message that Judas I was the reason the other apostles and disciples "scattered"....I read that Judas I main job was to identify Jesus out of a group of men who likely looked pretty much all the same.....the priests wanted only Jesus because of envy, they probably didn't even bother at that time to think that Jesus likely had pretty well educated His followers, I believe the persecution of the disciples of Jesus came AFTER Jesus resurrection.....the priests were so fearful of that they perpuated the lie and asked the soldiers say that when questioned that the apostles had come and stolen Jesus' bodey away....and Mt. says that that is what is told today amongst the Jews, is that Jesus' apostles came and stole Jesus' body out of the tomb. Back to Judas I., when Jesus picked His 12 Apostles He absolutely knew that Judas would betray Him, but Judas had no thought of that until Satan had entered into him. And we can be assured that Judas I. absolutely had a rightful place in Jesus' ministry for doesn't it say that his bishopric was to be given to another? Judas fell out of favor at the right time which was during the time that the chief priests were looking for a way to do away with Jesus and that was just a short while before the Passover feast.....
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Post by rational on Jul 23, 2012 9:29:58 GMT -5
Back to Judas I., when Jesus picked His 12 Apostles He absolutely knew that Judas would betray Him, but Judas had no thought of that until Satan had entered into him. Is this a fact or a rewrite of the doctrine as an explanation? Had either Jesus or Judas believed this was the work of the devil (or whatever name you wish to apply) they would have not continued on to complete the task. If you do follow that line it would mean that Jesus was pressing Judas into following a path, guided by Satan, that would lead to his eternal damnation. Do you think Jesus would have encouraged Judas to continue down that path had it been satan's work? That would have Jesus and satan working hand in hand to deliver the essential piece of christianity in this story. John 13:27: “That which thou doest, do quickly.” Jesus saying "Continue your pact with Satan?" Doesn't sound likely.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 23, 2012 9:38:40 GMT -5
Back to Judas I., when Jesus picked His 12 Apostles He absolutely knew that Judas would betray Him, but Judas had no thought of that until Satan had entered into him. Is this a fact or a rewrite of the doctrine as an explanation? Had either Jesus or Judas believed this was the work of the devil (or whatever name you wish to apply) they would have not continued on to complete the task. If you do follow that line it would mean that Jesus was pressing Judas into following a path, guided by Satan, that would lead to his eternal damnation. Do you think Jesus would have encouraged Judas to continue down that path had it been satan's work? That would have Jesus and satan working hand in hand to deliver the essential piece of christianity in this story. John 13:27: “That which thou doest, do quickly.” Jesus saying "Continue your pact with Satan?" Doesn't sound likely. Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. Reading the 26th chapter of Matthew will open up those things that had to be in order that the scriptures might be fulfilled....seems Satan entered into Judas Iscariot when Jesus gave him the sop.... Also understanding that the scriptures MUST be fulfilled was Jesus' knowledge of His Father's Will in heaven and as He said to Pilate that He could ask the Father and the Father would send legends of Angels to help save Jesus out of the hands of His enemies, but Jesus said that that was why He'd come.... I think that it says when the Satan left Jesus in the wilderness that it says that Satan left Him "for a time". I also think it is quite apparent that Satan returned tro tempt Jesus when Satan went into Judas I....it says after that thatr Jesus become greatly troubled and this is when He went into the garden to pray...He was needing some sustenance there from the Father in order to take on what He knew was coming....
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Post by rational on Jul 23, 2012 9:49:41 GMT -5
Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. Wouldn't some agreement among gospels be great! Remember that the writer of Matthew was known for trying to bring in as many OT items as possible, whether they actually happened or not! So you are saying that Jesus essentially pointed Judas out to Satan by giving him the sop and condemned him to eternal damnation? No Satan, Jesus pointed out the person, Satan jumped in and took his soul. Now who would be the responsible adult in that case? Who betrayed who?
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Post by quizzer on Jul 23, 2012 9:50:06 GMT -5
Several issues came to a head about the time the Jim Knipe tapes were made. Gwen Fipke told something to someone that was false. Willis Propp's financial activities and the incorporation of the Truth in Alberta were other issues. One guy makes a reference to homosexuality activities in his comments to Jim Knipe. I don't have a link to the tapes for those who haven't heard them. Seems like there was a growing schism in the fellowship around 1999. thelyingtruth.info/?f=exc&id=alberta_audio&clip=6It is in clip six...I was remembering the woman but it was the elder himself.... Thanks. I've tried listening to the tapes, but I've stopped after the first few words. The whole situation makes me sick.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 23, 2012 9:51:30 GMT -5
Thanks. I've tried listening to the tapes, but I've stopped after the first few words. The whole situation makes me sick. The tapes were also transcribed there at the site.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 23, 2012 9:54:34 GMT -5
Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. Wouldn't some agreement among gospels be great! Remember that the writer of Matthew was known for trying to bring in as many OT items as possible, whether they actually happened or not! So you are saying that Jesus essentially pointed Judas out to Satan by giving him the sop and condemned him to eternal damnation? No Satan, Jesus pointed out the person, Satan jumped in and took his soul. Now who would be the responsible adult in that case? Who betrayed who? It is futile to try and bring all of that scripture into understanding for you, Rat, I had said I wasn't going to pay any more heed to your posts...but again, I did my best to showe you what happened, that it was all meant to happen that way and in no way, was I saying that Jesus put Satan in anyone....that cannot be done unless that person is willing and ready! The sop was just pointing out to the other Apostles who Jesus was telling them that one of them would betray Him....that night no less.
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Post by Greg on Jul 23, 2012 9:55:51 GMT -5
Thanks. I've tried listening to the tapes, but I've stopped after the first few words. The whole situation makes me sick. The tapes were also transcribed there at the site. How do they play?
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Post by sharonw on Jul 23, 2012 9:58:31 GMT -5
The tapes were also transcribed there at the site. How do they play? Isn't there a choice there?
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Post by Greg on Jul 23, 2012 10:11:57 GMT -5
Isn't there a choice there? Not that I see. There is a place for the time bar, but nothing shows there. Under that is either the transcript or an explanation of what is in the clip.
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Post by kencoolidge on Jul 23, 2012 10:38:27 GMT -5
Oh, are you the one who is tracking the every move of every overseer all the time? Nice try at diverting the question. You know that a working gong missing for a couple of days would raise questions. I know several who can tell you where overseers will be for the next few weeks and who can fill you in on schedule changes as they happen as well. It was a simple question, TS. Do you personally know of a worker who has flown off, unknown by the F&W, for the purpose of having a sexual encounter? Can you answer it or will you continue with your smoke-screen tactics? No. As you have pointed out, they are not financially accountable. Remember the question? How can this unaccountability cause harm, in reality or spiritually? No need. It is a simple question. Do you have personal knowledge of a worker that, unknown to the F&W, has taken a flight for the sole purpose of having a sexual encounter? I know 2 overseers that regulary traveled with females and not brother worker. Hardly seem what a man of God would do. Whether there were other things going on I do not know. 1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Its good to be reminded that many in those false churches ( so called by workers)practice the above even to the point of making sure they are never alone with a woman to avoid not only the appearance but also the temptation to do anything else. Might be a good practice for overseers to adopt as a code of ethics in worldly terms or better yet a code of righteousness according to Gods word from a biblical sense! ken
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Post by rational on Jul 23, 2012 11:25:06 GMT -5
It is futile to try and bring all of that scripture into understanding for you, Rat, I had said I wasn't going to pay any more heed to your posts...but again, I did my best to showe you what happened, that it was all meant to happen that way and in no way, was I saying that Jesus put Satan in anyone....that cannot be done unless that person is willing and ready! The sop was just pointing out to the other Apostles who Jesus was telling them that one of them would betray Him....that night no less. I was not asking for all of the scripture nor am I concerned about your beliefs. I just pointed out that since Jesus knew what Judas was going to do that he actually told Judas to get on with 'it', and that 'it' was an act that meant Judas would be damned, according to you, because he was following Satan. I presented another possibility. Jesus and Judas had discussed what was going to happen. and Judas was down with the plan. As was Jesus. And when the time came Jesus reminded Judas to get on with it. Blaming bad decisions on Satan is as old as genesis. Of course, the fact that someone had to point Jesus out would lead one to believe that jesus was not very well known. And if you believe Matthew 19:28 or Luke 22:28-30 then you realize that Jesus, full knowing what was going to happen, still treated Judas as one that would eat and drink at his table in his kingdom. No hint of anything less. The Judas story is not found in the earliest christian writings.
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Post by rational on Jul 23, 2012 11:28:52 GMT -5
I know 2 overseers that regulary traveled with females and not brother worker. Hardly seem what a man of God would do. Whether there were other things going on I do not know. The claim was that the worker would book flights, unknown to the F&W, for the purpose of having sexual encounters. I am having a difficult time with the idea that a worker could go missing for days without causing questions to be raised. I guess that is why they fly off and tell no one where they are going!
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