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Post by emy on Jul 17, 2012 22:42:36 GMT -5
My question should have been clearer. I was wondering how we would know if the workers in question had repented, since laverdad believes they have not. Would Dale's return to meeting be an indicator? I think there are people who have successfully approached workers to get a decision changed. (Oh, yeah.. those are the "super saints" )
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Post by emy on Jul 17, 2012 23:02:30 GMT -5
Do you know of anyone on this board judging regarding Dale's case? If so, what do you consider judging? It seems pretty clear to me that some people have accepted Dale's "side" as truth and the workers' "side" as coverup. My position is to stay neutral, because I don't know much about it, in spite of having read the letters.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 18, 2012 9:27:43 GMT -5
Do you know of anyone on this board judging regarding Dale's case? If so, what do you consider judging? It seems pretty clear to me that some people have accepted Dale's "side" as truth and the workers' "side" as coverup. My position is to stay neutral, because I don't know much about it, in spite of having read the letters. And Emy you have just proclaimed what many others in the fellowship have said, they don't want to know anything, they don't want to deal with anything, and thereby whatever is out there does not affect them at all! THIS is what many call sweeping things under the carpet. Leave it alone, I don't know anything about it, leave it to God.... HELLO! Emy! The wake-up call just passed you by! What do you think you choice of silence means to those who are hurting? To those who've been swept under the carpet because NO one wants to know anything about it?
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Post by quizzer on Jul 18, 2012 9:52:19 GMT -5
Professing people don't know this number. That's the problem, and that's why accurate financial reports from the workers are needed. How to divvy up the money is another matter, and I would like to see all the professing folks in all of the meetings voting on this. Open books and open policies are the best way to prevent fraud. But isn't that where so many religious groups get off track when too much emphasis is made about money. By the way how much money do you have and are you willing to divvy it up? I say leave the money issue alone unless you have really found out there is fraud. Then that would be an entirely different thing. I have been in the fellowship since 1956 and have never (unless I missed that) really found fraud. If you know of a real issue that way please write me a PM and I will listen with an open mind. First, this money does not belong to an overseer or any overseer. It's money that was given to the meetings - Christian Conventions, whatever the name is in whichever country. Therefore, it's not about divvying up someone's money. It's about using the money for the good of the organization. How would you feel about a Fortune 500 company that took this stance? "Invest in me, but don't expect to see the financial accounts unless you have a very, very good reason to expect something is wrong." Most folks wouldn't invest, and quite a few investigations would happen. This lack of financial accounting is another red flag for authorities when 2x2 scandals happen. It is something to be addressed.
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Post by rational on Jul 18, 2012 10:02:27 GMT -5
This lack of financial accounting is another red flag for authorities when 2x2 scandals happen. It is something to be addressed. How and why would this be a "red flag" to the authorities? Do you have any reference where the authorities have voiced this concern?
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Post by rational on Jul 18, 2012 10:08:51 GMT -5
When there is control, judgemental attitude, deceit and disregard for others, it is not what Jesus taught. Are you sure. Didn't Jesus tell his followers one thing then do another? This is exactly what Jesus thought. A powerful and controlling religion that Jesus said was the only way to eternal life. Unless you do as he says and follow him you are damned eternally. How much more powerful and controlling could you be? And even thoughts were to be considered.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 18, 2012 11:13:43 GMT -5
It seems pretty clear to me that some people have accepted Dale's "side" as truth and the workers' "side" as coverup. My position is to stay neutral, because I don't know much about it, in spite of having read the letters. And Emy you have just proclaimed what many others in the fellowship have said, they don't want to know anything, they don't want to deal with anything, and thereby whatever is out there does not affect them at all! THIS is what many call sweeping things under the carpet. Leave it alone, I don't know anything about it, leave it to God.... HELLO! Emy! The wake-up call just passed you by! What do you think you choice of silence means to those who are hurting? To those who've been swept under the carpet because NO one wants to know anything about it? Why are you beating up Emy? Is that a better spirit?
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 18, 2012 11:18:15 GMT -5
But isn't that where so many religious groups get off track when too much emphasis is made about money. By the way how much money do you have and are you willing to divvy it up? I say leave the money issue alone unless you have really found out there is fraud. Then that would be an entirely different thing. I have been in the fellowship since 1956 and have never (unless I missed that) really found fraud. If you know of a real issue that way please write me a PM and I will listen with an open mind. First, this money does not belong to an overseer or any overseer. It's money that was given to the meetings - Christian Conventions, whatever the name is in whichever country. Therefore, it's not about divvying up someone's money. It's about using the money for the good of the organization. How would you feel about a Fortune 500 company that took this stance? "Invest in me, but don't expect to see the financial accounts unless you have a very, very good reason to expect something is wrong." Most folks wouldn't invest, and quite a few investigations would happen. This lack of financial accounting is another red flag for authorities when 2x2 scandals happen. It is something to be addressed. There is a big difference in investing with the thought of showing dividends or profits. We give our money with no thought of a return. No return no need for financial accounting. There is plenty more where that came from.
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Post by emy on Jul 18, 2012 11:24:48 GMT -5
It seems pretty clear to me that some people have accepted Dale's "side" as truth and the workers' "side" as coverup. My position is to stay neutral, because I don't know much about it, in spite of having read the letters. And Emy you have just proclaimed what many others in the fellowship have said, they don't want to know anything, they don't want to deal with anything, and thereby whatever is out there does not affect them at all! THIS is what many call sweeping things under the carpet. Leave it alone, I don't know anything about it, leave it to God.... HELLO! Emy! The wake-up call just passed you by! What do you think you choice of silence means to those who are hurting? To those who've been swept under the carpet because NO one wants to know anything about it? Would it really be a prudent use of my time and energy to dig into this old allegation, contact people on both sides so I can make decision of my own, which is apt to only be a flawed human decision? I would not even know where to start. I think there are people here (on TMB) that could tell you that I DO search out answers to situations that touch me personally. This was addressed to "young widows" by Paul, but I think we would all do well to take heed to the direction it gives: 1 Ti. 5:13 And if they are on the list, they will learn to be lazy and will spend their time gossiping from house to house, meddling in other people’s business and talking about things they shouldn’t.
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Post by emy on Jul 18, 2012 11:26:46 GMT -5
Amen
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 18, 2012 11:34:16 GMT -5
Yep. Emy has been known to hound me unmercifully to find out answers to her questions...... I appreciate her questions though, as she does seek to find the truth of what she reads about here on the TMB. Scott
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Post by sharonw on Jul 18, 2012 16:08:46 GMT -5
And Emy you have just proclaimed what many others in the fellowship have said, they don't want to know anything, they don't want to deal with anything, and thereby whatever is out there does not affect them at all! THIS is what many call sweeping things under the carpet. Leave it alone, I don't know anything about it, leave it to God.... HELLO! Emy! The wake-up call just passed you by! What do you think you choice of silence means to those who are hurting? To those who've been swept under the carpet because NO one wants to know anything about it? Would it really be a prudent use of my time and energy to dig into this old allegation, contact people on both sides so I can make decision of my own, which is apt to only be a flawed human decision? I would not even know where to start. I think there are people here (on TMB) that could tell you that I DO search out answers to situations that touch me personally. This was addressed to "young widows" by Paul, but I think we would all do well to take heed to the direction it gives: 1 Ti. 5:13 And if they are on the list, they will learn to be lazy and will spend their time gossiping from house to house, meddling in other people’s business and talking about things they shouldn’t.Emy, I've tried my best to help your understand the whys things are kept the way they've been kept so long within the fellowship and you are not hearing what many of us have tried to say.....this is just the mindset that the workers have worked overtime in instilling in the members of the 2x2 fellowship and this is how such things as CSA has gotten past even the most loving person within that fellowship. With communication capabilities that are of today as they are, things are readily known and thankful most victims are for this rescue or else the victims would continue to be oppressed and the perps still continue to do their dirty deeds and get by! And worse, remain in positions of power over members of the fellowship. IF the letter from Jean about IH had not been released for public knowledge, IH would still be an overseer over the largest state in the US....and on and on and on....victims' crying over all the world...is this not remindful of the children of Israel crying over their bondage in the land of Egypt....didn't God enable what was available in that day to work to release those from bondage? Is it not possible the ready information also used by God to help those crying victims? I think so, and I know others think so..... Now as to knowing what went on years ago and it being profitable for today is this....it shows us that those things happened back then and thus perps got away with things and often were rewarded with overseer positions....so NOW how do you think that can help today? It helps to open our eyes to the potential that somebody on a pillar in the fellowship needs removed from that pillar. I think the awakening of many of us, some innies and more eses, in regards to our own "worshipful" selves within the fellowship created a goldmine for those who took and never gave back in return...such as overseers in positions of power that they never should have been given. Also puts us into the knowledge that worshipping the workers and the way IS NOT the way to salvation.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 18, 2012 16:11:47 GMT -5
And Emy you have just proclaimed what many others in the fellowship have said, they don't want to know anything, they don't want to deal with anything, and thereby whatever is out there does not affect them at all! THIS is what many call sweeping things under the carpet. Leave it alone, I don't know anything about it, leave it to God.... HELLO! Emy! The wake-up call just passed you by! What do you think you choice of silence means to those who are hurting? To those who've been swept under the carpet because NO one wants to know anything about it? Why are you beating up Emy? Is that a better spirit? LIN, why do you perceive that I'm beating up on Emy? Does it ring a familiar note even in your own heart? Good, the message may be getting through then! Thanx
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 18, 2012 16:58:01 GMT -5
Why are you beating up Emy? Is that a better spirit? LIN, why do you perceive that I'm beating up on Emy? Does it ring a familiar note even in your own heart? Good, the message may be getting through then! Thanx I just thought you were better than everyone else. Sorry my disappointment
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Post by quizzer on Jul 18, 2012 17:38:01 GMT -5
This lack of financial accounting is another red flag for authorities when 2x2 scandals happen. It is something to be addressed. How and why would this be a "red flag" to the authorities? Do you have any reference where the authorities have voiced this concern? Case No. 9703-16174 Court of Queen’s Bench of Alberta, Judicial District of Edmonton February 8, 1999. BETWEEN: Duncan P. Dorey and Margaret J. Dorey, Plaintiffs - and - Janice L. Steingard, Defendant ________________________________________ NOTE: Willis Propp was the Alberta Overseer, was a witness under oath in this case. The Questions below were asked by attorneys in the court case The Answers are those given by Willis Propp • Pages 29-30 Question: Do you, sir, file income tax forms in Canada? Answer: Pardon me? Question: I’m sorry. Do you file income returns in Canada? Answer: We have just started this year to do it. It hasn’t been necessary before that. I filed a letter with the -- I filed a letter with the Income Tax Department in 1949, that from a certain date in 1948 I began in this full time evangelistic ministry, and I’m only supported by the unsolicited free will offerings, and I have never heard from them since, but now they have required our ministers to file income tax returns for the sake of Alberta Health. It was a policy. • Page 30 Question: What happens when you receive monies that are more than are necessary for you? You said -- you told us they are used. Where are they put, those monies? Answer: The money is entrusted to me in the first place, and then I entrust that to faithful elders among us, the local church elders, and they keep it for me, and it’s used at my discretion. • Page 86 Question: You have the sole discretion as to how to spend that money, and there is no accountability except to God? Answer: As far as I’m concerned. But any interest that is accrued on that money is looked after by the elders that have it. It’s held in trust, and it’s not in anyone’s name but their own, and so they pay the income tax on the interest that is accrued. • Page 137-138 Question: Well, Mr. Propp, you already testified that you are a penniless preacher. Above and beyond what we’ve talked about today, you don’t have any other business interest; do you? Answer: I certainly don’t. And I would like to just add that I am not a penniless preacher. That’s not a terminology among us because we all have money that is given to us. Free will. We are not penniless. Question: I would assume that when the Workers go out into the field, do they always pay cash or do they use credit cards? Answer: Some have credit cards and some pay cash. Question: And I understand at various times, you had a credit card? Answer: I did, sir. Question: One with a rather high credit limit? Answer: Yes, because we dealt with all the travel of our overseas Workers back in -- and it was very convenient for that. Question: I believe the credit limit on your card was $20,000? Answer: It was in excess of 20,000 at one time.
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Post by quizzer on Jul 18, 2012 17:42:05 GMT -5
First, this money does not belong to an overseer or any overseer. It's money that was given to the meetings - Christian Conventions, whatever the name is in whichever country. Therefore, it's not about divvying up someone's money. It's about using the money for the good of the organization. How would you feel about a Fortune 500 company that took this stance? "Invest in me, but don't expect to see the financial accounts unless you have a very, very good reason to expect something is wrong." Most folks wouldn't invest, and quite a few investigations would happen. This lack of financial accounting is another red flag for authorities when 2x2 scandals happen. It is something to be addressed. There is a big difference in investing with the thought of showing dividends or profits. We give our money with no thought of a return. No return no need for financial accounting. There is plenty more where that came from. Riiiight. So from social dynamics within the 2x2s, I would not see that elders are appointed by families that give the most money to the workers/overseers, and/or entertain the workers/overseers the most. I would also not see more workers at the funerals of the biggest givers from the friends and the least workers at the funerals of the most poor of the friends. 2x2s, like everyone else on the planet, gives money with lots of thought of return. That's why open financial accounting reports would be so nice. You could dispel my thoughts on the matter and/or I could dispel your thoughts on the matter.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 18, 2012 18:07:18 GMT -5
[quote author=emy board=general thread=19442 post=479670 time=1342628688
This was addressed to "young widows" by Paul, but I think we would all do well to take heed to the direction it gives: 1 Ti. 5:13 And if they are on the list, they will learn to be lazy and will spend their time gossiping from house to house, meddling in other people’s business and talking about things they shouldn’t.[/quote]
Yet another of Paul's inconsiderate & bias against women!
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Post by JO on Jul 18, 2012 19:30:24 GMT -5
[quote author=emy board=general thread=19442 post=479670 time=1342628688 This was addressed to "young widows" by Paul, but I think we would all do well to take heed to the direction it gives: 1 Ti. 5:13 And if they are on the list, they will learn to be lazy and will spend their time gossiping from house to house, meddling in other people’s business and talking about things they shouldn’t. Yet another of Paul's inconsiderate & bias against women![/quote] It's unfair to judge Paul with a 21st century mindset. The sexes had very distinct roles in the society of that era.
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Post by snow on Jul 18, 2012 19:39:20 GMT -5
Yet another of Paul's inconsiderate & bias against women! It's unfair to judge Paul with a 21st century mindset. The sexes had very distinct roles in the society of that era. I would have to agree that Paul did not live in our century and must be seen in the light of that day and age. However, what I do not understand, is why do we in this day and age take what Paul had to say and make it a modern day standard? It is a male hierarchy wishing to control females and taking an outdated book to justify that. Makes no sense to me at all.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 18, 2012 20:35:07 GMT -5
LIN, why do you perceive that I'm beating up on Emy? Does it ring a familiar note even in your own heart? Good, the message may be getting through then! Thanx I just thought you were better than everyone else. Sorry my disappointment Lin, just as long as you don't rock too far back on that rockin' chair, I'll be alright!
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 18, 2012 20:39:03 GMT -5
I just thought you were better than everyone else. Sorry my disappointment Lin, just as long as you don't rock too far back on that rockin' chair, I'll be alright! Watch your toes,in your excitement.
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Post by rational on Jul 18, 2012 22:19:45 GMT -5
And Emy you have just proclaimed what many others in the fellowship have said, they don't want to know anything, they don't want to deal with anything, and thereby whatever is out there does not affect them at all! THIS is what many call sweeping things under the carpet. Leave it alone, I don't know anything about it, leave it to God.... HELLO! Emy! The wake-up call just passed you by! What do you think you choice of silence means to those who are hurting? To those who've been swept under the carpet because NO one wants to know anything about it? Almost sounds like a personal attack and cyber-bullying all rolled into one.
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Post by quizzer on Jul 19, 2012 9:14:53 GMT -5
[quote author=emy board=general thread=19442 post=479670 time=1342628688 This was addressed to "young widows" by Paul, but I think we would all do well to take heed to the direction it gives: 1 Ti. 5:13 And if they are on the list, they will learn to be lazy and will spend their time gossiping from house to house, meddling in other people’s business and talking about things they shouldn’t. Yet another of Paul's inconsiderate & bias against women![/quote] Odd statement because this is a time when running water and washing machines weren't available in the average household. Neither was birth control. Wonder who was doing the cooking, cleaning, child care, shopping? Sounds like a lot of servants per household, and Paul didn't criticize them.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 19, 2012 10:58:05 GMT -5
Lin, just as long as you don't rock too far back on that rockin' chair, I'll be alright! Watch your toes,in your excitement. It wasn't my toes I was worried about!
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Post by jhjmr on Jul 20, 2012 12:46:06 GMT -5
Yes, you can give freely and as often as possible any money that you feel a need to give. The convention church building is getting fanicer all the time. Takes money people. A $500.00 suit doesn't wrinkle in a suitcase but a $750.00 suit would probably be better. Isn't that why workers buy expensive clothes? But, it doesn't matter how the money is spent, it is given freely.
However, why is the sermon always about, we don't take up collections like false church. No, we just take money in our hand when you shake it. We accept inheritances and we put that into another persons account so that it doesn't register to us. Because, we preach we have nothing. What would other churches think if they knew we had bank accounts hidden? Oh yes, the elder that hides our money, he just lets the banks report that money as his and he pays taxes on it. It is just fine to do money laundering, that is in the bible. P.S. Hope the workers appreciate those cell phone, laptops, charge cards and the use of a car and free gas. Those are things that all people that have nothing take care of. Maybe this year your church building, oops, convention building, will have an air conditioner.
If you want to give money with no thought, I will send my address quickly.
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Post by emy on Jul 20, 2012 14:54:37 GMT -5
JHJMR, if I send you money, it will benefit you and your family, probably for a very short time (not a big giver). If I give to a worker and it is more than s/he needs for personal use and it gets spent to put A/C in a convention building, it will benefit a large number of people for many years.
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Post by ts on Jul 20, 2012 15:13:31 GMT -5
JHJMR, if I send you money, it will benefit you and your family, probably for a very short time (not a big giver). If I give to a worker and it is more than s/he needs for personal use and it gets spent to put A/C in a convention building, it will benefit a large number of people for many years. And if the overseer is dishonest and collects money from the friends to do "convention upgrades" and the money coming in is unaccounted for, he may well receive 10 times what is necessary to do the upgrades. So, if the air conditioning gets put in and the new building gets built, the overseer gets credit as a good overseer looking after the good of the friends.... And will "benefit large number of people for years to come." However, the same friends who say that do not consider that workers not being accountable for the excess money actually can hurt many people for generations to come. For example, suppose this same overseer who called for money for convention upgrades used this excess money to intimidate women, sister workers and use the money to establish his position of trust among the friends and workers. Suppose he uses that money to fly to different parts of the country in order to have sex with vulnerable women. It is really simple. If there were a system in place that made workers accountable and cast suspicion and doubt on workers who were not willing to be accountable, then there would be safeguards against the deep and lasting damage to generations of the friends. If the overseers are capable of doing so much good, they are just as capable of doing a whole lot of evil. The wolves among them have trained the friends and workers to "let God handle it" which serves to keep the friends spiritually bullied into not questioning them. If they do question the predators in charge, then they are supposed to be taking God's place and are automatically "rebellious" and not a part of "God's kingdom".
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Post by Gene on Jul 20, 2012 15:18:53 GMT -5
JHJMR, if I send you money, it will benefit you and your family, probably for a very short time (not a big giver). If I give to a worker and it is more than s/he needs for personal use and it gets spent to put A/C in a convention building, it will benefit a large number of people for many years. And on the other hand, if it gets spent to buy a suit to replace the one the worker was tired of and new shark-skin dress shoes because they're cool, it benefits no one, really. (True story - he's an overseer now.)
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