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Post by Greg on Jul 16, 2012 17:15:12 GMT -5
You should ask the organization to set up a directed purpose gift program where you can allocate your money as you see fit rather than the people you are 'giving' it to. Oh, that would be wonderful. Also, having the overseers release financial reports to all of the friends on a quarterly basis per year - showing trust fund amounts, and all expenses. Terrific idea, rational. Thanks for posting. So you find out that in the USA there is 50 million dollars banked and 5 million each in Australia, Canada, and Europe, and all the rest very little, if any. Now what?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2012 19:19:52 GMT -5
Well to be honest, Greg, it's a real question he and Jon Platte are covering from Little Rock,AR to Joplin, MO **** The friends in Mizzou and Arkansas needs to read Dale Gardner's letter to Taylor Wood in 1988. JP was very rude to him when discussing the CSA issue.
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Post by emy on Jul 16, 2012 20:19:43 GMT -5
Twenty-four years, and you want us to maintain a grudge?
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Post by christiansburg on Jul 16, 2012 21:09:50 GMT -5
Any updates? Seems like Jerome F to KY-TN. Bill Denk to KY-TN?? Greg Harger to MI (Greg lost his dad this week btw). George Lee to Georgia. Dennis Kinnan to SC. Jim Holt is in Oklahoma. Not sure about George Peterson. Some thought Ray Hoffman might go to MI?? Not sure. Ray Miller may leave Wisconsin?? Any updates? Just heard today from relatives in Indiana/Illinois that Ray Hoffman is in those states and had a workers meeting with the staff from both states. So that must be where he will be for the next year anyway. The meeting took place near Indianapolis.
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Post by christiansburg on Jul 16, 2012 21:14:37 GMT -5
Oh, that would be wonderful. Also, having the overseers release financial reports to all of the friends on a quarterly basis per year - showing trust fund amounts, and all expenses. Terrific idea, rational. Thanks for posting. So you find out that in the USA there is 50 million dollars banked and 5 million each in Australia, Canada, and Europe, and all the rest very little, if any. Now what? You are way off on your imagination on this. I assume that 50 million is just a figure you pulled out of the sky. If statements like that are made you should have some proof.
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Post by Greg on Jul 16, 2012 21:18:02 GMT -5
So you find out that in the USA there is 50 million dollars banked and 5 million each in Australia, Canada, and Europe, and all the rest very little, if any. Now what? You are way off on your imagination on this. I assume that 50 million is just a figure you pulled out of the sky. If statements like that are made you should have some proof. Too low? Personally I see no reason for financial reporting by the workers for the friends. ============================================== The question remains, though. Now what? After one has been told of the financial standing, what does one do? Give more or less or the same?
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Post by sharonw on Jul 16, 2012 22:19:20 GMT -5
You are way off on your imagination on this. I assume that 50 million is just a figure you pulled out of the sky. If statements like that are made you should have some proof. Too low? Personally I see no reason for financial reporting by the workers for the friends. ============================================== The question remains, though. Now what? After one has been told of the financial standing, what does one do? Give more or less or the same? Didn't someone on TMB some time ago mention of a several million dollar account in Jerusalem? Might not be such a bad idea, eh?
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Post by sharonw on Jul 16, 2012 22:25:34 GMT -5
This reminded me of some neurological patients we had years ago, there were about 4 of them before we got through the ordeal anyway....all four had some neurological disease processes in their heads....but to cut it short they all four had become so out-of-bounds of normal behaviours in that they were over sexed actually, sex was their only thought and action....and prior to this coming all all 4 had been very reticent type of people in that no one would have known if they had a thought about sex other then it being part of their marriage. And these were older people, as well....and no, I'm not saying old people shouldn't have sex or not want to have sex...but usually they're usually a bit more discreet in that. We've got a lady here in the retirement center that has shown some odd mental processes in comparison to what she had been for the last 3 years or so. She'd had bilateral mastectomies 18 yrs. ago and never really thought a whole lot about it....she also has had 3 shoulder joint replacements in the last 2 years....but all of a sudden a very reserved lady is seen to be walking down about 10 apartments and she'd sit out there with this single man way up into the night....then both would sleep til noon. She usually had her little grandson in her apartment and just left him there...he's about 4 y/o. All of a sudden, the old man is moving in with the lady. she's moving in furniture(nearly new) to replace what she doesn't want of her own. And all in this time she sets herself up for breast augmentation! Which will involve repeated surgeries to get her to whatever size she so well wants...then on top of all of this she goes and buys a bright red sports convertible! I didn't think too much of each of the instances of her odd behaviour, but adding them all up says to me that something seems to have snapped with this lady....does she have metastatic cancer of the brain? Is her psychological being compromised somehow with chemical imbalance? All of these things came so fast and furious she acts like she is in another world every few mins. lah! I'm just glad it is her! These are just examples of people who get so out of ordinary behaviour esp. involving sexual things...I know some alzheimer patients are much into sex in some different levels of their alzheimer's disease....I know the nursing home just down the street has a locked area where they keep their dementia patients and they're always having to take people out of other people's bed and yes, the other person is in there as well. I know the Supreme Court Judge Ruth Ginsberg, went through hell with her own husband who go so bad, he no longer recognized her as his wife, but he fell in love with another alzheimer's patient in the nursing home...That had to have hurt, but Ruth and her children worked through all of that and they all said that the person they knew as their husband and father was no longer in that body that had been his body, but psychologically he was someone else entirely.....this brought some comfort. There has to be something horribly wrong with an overseer who has to either have sex so bad he rapes one of his staff with promises that if she tells she is a goner......this is not of Christ, but could it be of a bad growing disease? Yes, I know we've talked about sociopath..... How many of those patients you are referring to were able to speak for an hour at a time two or three times at a convention, make plane arrangements, handle large sums of money and be invited to planning meetings of overseers to do major planning for the whole country's conventions? How many of them were recognized as capable of leading and keeping up with a whole staff of workers and the friends of a whole state? Were any of these patients able to serve any comparable capacity in their professions while they were acting so erratically sexually? If they were in those positions of power, do you think that their erratic decisions would have affected more than their sex lives? Do you think that LW's apparent "erratic behaviour in his old age" has affected his preaching negatively? If so, I would like to know what LW might have said during these past few years that have thrown up any red flags that there might be something amiss mentally or spiritually. Surely the leadership would have picked up on that as they, presumably, are spiritually discerning and would not want the friends exposed to falseness. Wasn't LW scheduled for convention rounds at the moment he was asked to leave the work? TS, I wasn't particularly speaking about LW in this, I was speaking about the relationship between overseer/worker and boss/employee....that's what JO was speaking about and it just reminded me of these weird things that people get themselves into simply because there IS something wrong and often it is pyschological...which a sociopath would have some kind of pyschological challenge, wouldn't they? TS, please quit saying I've not accept or acknowledging to myself that LW is just pure rotten to the core and has been acting off the wall to his own pleasure.....it isn't I don't accept the knowledge of that, TS....it is something that floors me completely....I've been the same way about some ministers in these churches all around me....these ministers use their position for their own pleasure.....they really think little of their membership of their own parish....this is nothing more then pure selfishness; eh?
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Post by ts on Jul 16, 2012 22:42:29 GMT -5
ok, Sharon.
It is so rotten that it is hard to imagine. It is hard to imagine that LW's enablers are so rotten as to have kept him there in that place of responsibility for so long. You can't really make sense of it all within the system without some severe rationalizations taking place. The only way to make sense of it is to step out of the box and call the spades spades. To call what they are doing "the truth" is, at best, a misnomer.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 17, 2012 6:12:11 GMT -5
ok, Sharon. It is so rotten that it is hard to imagine. It is hard to imagine that LW's enablers are so rotten as to have kept him there in that place of responsibility for so long. You can't really make sense of it all within the system without some severe rationalizations taking place. The only way to make sense of it is to step out of the box and call the spades spades. To call what they are doing "the truth" is, at best, a misnomer. We are all rotten by nature. Opportunity to show it isn't always available to us.
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Post by jhjmr on Jul 17, 2012 7:07:58 GMT -5
Wouldn't you wonder if the thought isn't, if I take him down, he could do the same to me? There are many skeletons in closets that people don't want exposed.
I say, take him down if he did wrong. And let the cards fall. The holier than thou attitude would crumble. And the farce would be made known. As far as the money, everyone knows there is money. There are those who are scared to have it made public because it is then just big religion accounts. If you hide a lie, you are also a liar. If you allow deceiving, you are also a deceiver. You can't make a wrong right no matter how hard you try. There are to many that play into the hands of a position. I would have thought the highest position you could get would be a positon with God. So, let the drama unfold and we'll see how many thought ignorance is bliss.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 17, 2012 8:27:28 GMT -5
Wouldn't you wonder if the thought isn't, if I take him down, he could do the same to me? There are many skeletons in closets that people don't want exposed. I say, take him down if he did wrong. And let the cards fall. The holier than thou attitude would crumble. And the farce would be made known. As far as the money, everyone knows there is money. There are those who are scared to have it made public because it is then just big religion accounts. If you hide a lie, you are also a liar. If you allow deceiving, you are also a deceiver. You can't make a wrong right no matter how hard you try. There are to many that play into the hands of a position. I would have thought the highest position you could get would be a positon with God. So, let the drama unfold and we'll see how many thought ignorance is bliss. I agree wrong will reveal itself,but on the other hand so will right.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 17, 2012 9:16:01 GMT -5
Wouldn't you wonder if the thought isn't, if I take him down, he could do the same to me? There are many skeletons in closets that people don't want exposed. I say, take him down if he did wrong. And let the cards fall. The holier than thou attitude would crumble. And the farce would be made known. As far as the money, everyone knows there is money. There are those who are scared to have it made public because it is then just big religion accounts. If you hide a lie, you are also a liar. If you allow deceiving, you are also a deceiver. You can't make a wrong right no matter how hard you try. There are to many that play into the hands of a position. I would have thought the highest position you could get would be a positon with God. So, let the drama unfold and we'll see how many thought ignorance is bliss. I agree wrong will reveal itself,but on the other hand so will right. Yes, Lin...here's a quote from Leslie White himself "The appearance of sin is as bad as the actual sin."
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Post by quizzer on Jul 17, 2012 9:42:10 GMT -5
So you find out that in the USA there is 50 million dollars banked and 5 million each in Australia, Canada, and Europe, and all the rest very little, if any. Now what? You are way off on your imagination on this. I assume that 50 million is just a figure you pulled out of the sky. If statements like that are made you should have some proof. Professing people don't know this number. That's the problem, and that's why accurate financial reports from the workers are needed. How to divvy up the money is another matter, and I would like to see all the professing folks in all of the meetings voting on this. Open books and open policies are the best way to prevent fraud.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2012 12:33:52 GMT -5
To Emy concerning John Platte. I have yet to see where he has apologized to Dale Gardner for the accusation of having a wrong spirit!!!
Emy, enjoy .......
The following Sunday, July 8, 1989, Murray and Jon Platte attended our morning meeting at Ralph Crist’s, and all three of us were present. Murray spoke at length from Titus 2:10-15, mentioning that while it was painful, the workers at times must use the authority they have. •Finishing, he chose a hymn. After the hymn, he announced we would not partake of the emblems, explaining that Dale had sent out letters and was out of fellowship with the church.
He stated Ralph and Bob Crist (brothers, and both elders) had come to see him and expressed a willingness three months earlier to tell Dale he was not welcome in their meetings. He told Dale that some had expressed a desire to walk out when Dale spoke. He said Albert Hagen had told him that if he wished, Albert would tell us that Dale was not welcome in their home either. Murray looked at Albert and said, “Isn’t that right?”
Albert immediately said yes it was, that Dale was out of place talking about adultery and fornication in meetings, in front of women and children; he should just let the Lord take care of it. Dale asked him how he would feel if a worker molested his little granddaughter. He said he would just let the Lord take care of it. The meeting was very restless during this short conversation. Ralph commented only that what this town needs is elder's meetings every couple of months. Dale suggested that the church gather the evidence and find out if workers were really molesting children and women. Murray ignored that suggestion. He got up and greeted some as he crossed the room. Dale then said, "Murray, do you mean I can not come to meeting?”
Hesitating noticeably, Murray said, “Well at least don’t take part.”
I was standing slightly behind Dale, and Ralph came to me and said I was welcome to return. Most all had gone outside when Jon Platte approached us and indicated that he had a concern for our souls but that we did not have good spirits, mentioning the time about 1½ years ago when many in our meeting expressed a concern that we put together a Wednesday night study list of things that we wanted to learn more about or clarify. He saw this as dissatisfaction. I told him in the east, there is not a standard study for a whole state, and we just felt like there were things we could study pertinent to the needs of most in our church, including the children who took an interest in it. He indicated that we weren’t getting anywhere as that was the bad spirit again, and left. Then everyone was gone except Ralph, Dale and me
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Post by sharonw on Jul 17, 2012 12:43:02 GMT -5
To Emy concerning John Platte. I have yet to see where he has apologized to Dale Gardner for the accusation of having a wrong spirit!!! Emy, enjoy ....... The following Sunday, July 8, 1989, Murray and Jon Platte attended our morning meeting at Ralph Crist’s, and all three of us were present. Murray spoke at length from Titus 2:10-15, mentioning that while it was painful, the workers at times must use the authority they have. •Finishing, he chose a hymn. After the hymn, he announced we would not partake of the emblems, explaining that Dale had sent out letters and was out of fellowship with the church. He stated Ralph and Bob Crist (brothers, and both elders) had come to see him and expressed a willingness three months earlier to tell Dale he was not welcome in their meetings. He told Dale that some had expressed a desire to walk out when Dale spoke. He said Albert Hagen had told him that if he wished, Albert would tell us that Dale was not welcome in their home either. Murray looked at Albert and said, “Isn’t that right?” Albert immediately said yes it was, that Dale was out of place talking about adultery and fornication in meetings, in front of women and children; he should just let the Lord take care of it. Dale asked him how he would feel if a worker molested his little granddaughter. He said he would just let the Lord take care of it. The meeting was very restless during this short conversation. Ralph commented only that what this town needs is elder's meetings every couple of months. Dale suggested that the church gather the evidence and find out if workers were really molesting children and women. Murray ignored that suggestion. He got up and greeted some as he crossed the room. Dale then said, "Murray, do you mean I can not come to meeting?” Hesitating noticeably, Murray said, “Well at least don’t take part.” I was standing slightly behind Dale, and Ralph came to me and said I was welcome to return. Most all had gone outside when Jon Platte approached us and indicated that he had a concern for our souls but that we did not have good spirits, mentioning the time about 1½ years ago when many in our meeting expressed a concern that we put together a Wednesday night study list of things that we wanted to learn more about or clarify. He saw this as dissatisfaction. I told him in the east, there is not a standard study for a whole state, and we just felt like there were things we could study pertinent to the needs of most in our church, including the children who took an interest in it. He indicated that we weren’t getting anywhere as that was the bad spirit again, and left. Then everyone was gone except Ralph, Dale and me If any one should be doubting the accuracy of these "reports", I had an aunt and uncle in the bit middle of this...it caused them to quietly just NOT go to the mtgs. where the controversary was strong....though they were not blaming any of the friends....but because they'd witnessed a spiritual killing with another couple who were both divorced and were wanting to get married...this couple was held out of the marriage for many years....the last count my aunt gave me was over 20 yrs. My uncle died shortly thereof and I don't know if my aunt ever was able to find out what happened to that couple...oh, the workers told them it was alright for them to go out to eat together or any other neutral thing but that no, they could not marry one another and be in the fellowship and take full part....but they sure let them have liberties to fornicate just not adultery in marrying each other... What's the difference?
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Post by christiansburg on Jul 17, 2012 15:31:25 GMT -5
You are way off on your imagination on this. I assume that 50 million is just a figure you pulled out of the sky. If statements like that are made you should have some proof. Too low? Personally I see no reason for financial reporting by the workers for the friends. As I said this is just a wild imagination of yours. IF 50 MILLION IS SOMETHING REAL THEN WHERE ARE YOUR FACTS TO SUPPORT THAT and where do you get this information from. I agree with the statement that there is no need for any financial reporting of workers to any of us. ============================================== The question remains, though. Now what? After one has been told of the financial standing, what does one do? Give more or less or the same?
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Post by christiansburg on Jul 17, 2012 15:42:46 GMT -5
You are way off on your imagination on this. I assume that 50 million is just a figure you pulled out of the sky. If statements like that are made you should have some proof. Professing people don't know this number. That's the problem, and that's why accurate financial reports from the workers are needed. How to divvy up the money is another matter, and I would like to see all the professing folks in all of the meetings voting on this. Open books and open policies are the best way to prevent fraud. But isn't that where so many religious groups get off track when too much emphasis is made about money. By the way how much money do you have and are you willing to divvy it up? I say leave the money issue alone unless you have really found out there is fraud. Then that would be an entirely different thing. I have been in the fellowship since 1956 and have never (unless I missed that) really found fraud. If you know of a real issue that way please write me a PM and I will listen with an open mind.
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Post by ts on Jul 17, 2012 18:22:03 GMT -5
ok, Sharon. It is so rotten that it is hard to imagine. It is hard to imagine that LW's enablers are so rotten as to have kept him there in that place of responsibility for so long. You can't really make sense of it all within the system without some severe rationalizations taking place. The only way to make sense of it is to step out of the box and call the spades spades. To call what they are doing "the truth" is, at best, a misnomer. We are all rotten by nature. Opportunity to show it isn't always available to us. oh, the opportunities abound to show the world the God you serve. Jesus pointed out the pharisees were a generation of vipers. That is what the leadership in the work has become, unfortunately. The good thing is that the opportunities to stand against this powerful force in faith also abound. The opportunities to be persecuted for righteousness' sake and find joy in it abound. The opportunity to be spoken badly of by a corrupt leadership abound.
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Post by JO on Jul 17, 2012 19:37:22 GMT -5
Twenty-four years, and you want us to maintain a grudge? Emy, please think about how you would feel if your daughter had been sexually abused by an overseer who had the full support and confidence of the ministry - in spite of multiple counts of sexual immorality and child sexual abuse. Can you not feel Dale's pain? Yes, its twenty-four years ago, but can we be sure the ministry has repented of this evil?
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Post by jhjmr on Jul 17, 2012 20:01:50 GMT -5
Lin, you are right. Wrong and right will show itself. Will we just dwell on things that we think are right and ignore the things that are wrong as the past has revealed? And, how many people will be relieved if the wrong doesn't rear its ugly head and can just quietly be swept away only for another day to be revealed? Shouldn't all wrong be addressed and corrected? After all, many a prisoner that is doing time has some very good qualities too. Those qualities does not save him from the wrong he did and must be addressed. And when you read about the prisoner, there really isn't anyone to much interested in his good deeds, it is just, do your time, you asked for it and please learn something from it!! I would think God would be on that page for those who do wrong and then pretend they are so wonderful by something they do right. Does God constantly forgive a repeated over and over sin?
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Post by emy on Jul 17, 2012 20:07:02 GMT -5
How would we know? Has Dale agreed to report it, if so? Has he agreed to go to meeting again?
When I don't know both sides of the story, I tend to make an effort not to judge.
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Post by ts on Jul 17, 2012 20:31:12 GMT -5
How would we know? Has Dale agreed to report it, if so? Has he agreed to go to meeting again? When I don't know both sides of the story, I tend to make an effort not to judge. Do you know of anyone on this board judging regarding Dale's case? If so, what do you consider judging?
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Post by ts on Jul 17, 2012 20:36:32 GMT -5
Aren't there scriptural ways of knowing "both sides of the story"? You see, that is the problem. The overseers are so high above everyone else that they can make a decision where there is no recourse and they don't have to consult the little guys in their decision. The little guys just have to accept it(or not) because the big guys must know things that the little guys just would not understand because the big guys are closer to God. They don't have to give their side of the story.
So, there you go. The supporting cast of staunch friends are not going to question the workers no matter how many of these coverups come to light.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 17, 2012 20:39:29 GMT -5
Wouldn't you wonder if the thought isn't, if I take him down, he could do the same to me? There are many skeletons in closets that people don't want exposed. I say, take him down if he did wrong. And let the cards fall. The holier than thou attitude would crumble. And the farce would be made known. As far as the money, everyone knows there is money. There are those who are scared to have it made public because it is then just big religion accounts. If you hide a lie, you are also a liar. If you allow deceiving, you are also a deceiver. You can't make a wrong right no matter how hard you try. There are to many that play into the hands of a position. I would have thought the highest position you could get would be a positon with God. So, let the drama unfold and we'll see how many thought ignorance is bliss. I think your first question fits into the picture even much more then some may think!
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Post by ts on Jul 17, 2012 20:40:42 GMT -5
How would we know? Has Dale agreed to report it, if so? Has he agreed to go to meeting again? When I don't know both sides of the story, I tend to make an effort not to judge. What difference does it make if Dale comes back to meeting again or not? Is he not a brother in Christ? Would the workers not want to set things right with him for the sake of Christ rather than the sake of him being in meeting or not? You have just revealed yet another ploy of the workers. If they do not want to deal with an issue, pressure the person out of meeting and they don't have to deal with it. Then they are no longer a "brother" if they are out of meeting. You see, it is a catch 22. If you are in meeting you have to submit to the workers' decisions and be quiet. If you get frustrated and disgusted with the lack of compassion and leave, then you have no rights to say anything about what goes on in meeting. Either way, you have no rights and no voice.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 17, 2012 20:44:52 GMT -5
How would we know? Has Dale agreed to report it, if so? Has he agreed to go to meeting again? When I don't know both sides of the story, I tend to make an effort not to judge. To be fair to JP, he knew very little about Dale up to that very time, except for the "baiting" done by his peer(s) in that told to him how unstable Dale G. was and what a trouble maker he proved to be.....JP was carrying the torch of whoever had informed JP of Dale's bad spirit.
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Post by JO on Jul 17, 2012 21:22:14 GMT -5
The supporting cast of staunch friends are not going to question the workers no matter how many of these coverups come to light. The friends who provide unqualified support are enablers of the evil that lurks within the ministry. "Support the ministry no matter what" friends have given the overseers way more power than Christ ever intended. This unbridled power has caused many good workers to leave the work and some have left the fellowship as well. These friends think that is the righteous thing to do, but by failing to correct the workers when they go wrong they're doing them a great disservice. If the workers had sided with righteousness when Dale tried to bring this evil into the open, they likely would have contributed more to God's Kingdom than all their years of preaching since then.
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