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Post by kencoolidge on Apr 28, 2011 9:06:55 GMT -5
Noels I like others appreciate your honesty and that you have had liberty to state it. I appreciate your intentions and willingness. I apologize for anything that that I have said that may have discouraged you. I feel that I know you as a brother in Christ and want to encourage you. ken
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Post by quizzer on Apr 28, 2011 9:27:19 GMT -5
Thanks, noels.
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Post by kiwi on Apr 28, 2011 16:20:09 GMT -5
I have not had time to be looking much at TMB the last few days, but I have just read thru the most recent three or four pages of this thread. These covered discussion of what happens to workers if they leave the work and what happens when they get old and the suggestion of those in the US getting listed the pension/social security scheme or whatever you call it there. Maybe I am going to have this 'problem' when I post from now on...that as a worker whatever I post could be taken by some to 'represent the 'establishment'/'the official line' Well I am just one ordinary 'rank and file' worker. I have no 'seniority', not involved in the making of arrangements, lists, conventions etc etc. So what I will be posting is simply my personal experience ,views, thoughts,beliefs etc. But they are views/thoughts/beliefs that I will state openly with all, to those within our fellowship and with those not part of our fellowship. When I started in the work, it was after a number of years of struggling against a conviction I felt inside me that God was calling me to give my life to share the Gospel with others and to be a shepherd amongst those in the fellowship. When I started in the work I dispersed of all that I had except for my personal clothing which I could carry in a bag and suit carrier. In the following years I have sought to continue to live like this. I need to have 'clean outs' to get me back to the basics, to the way in which I have chosen to live. If I get given more money that I need for my immediate needs, then I send it on to a colleague where they may be needing it. I personally decided to forgo the normal, natural institution of marriage. I am a normal man but with the help of God and others I have so far managed to remain unmarried and relationship free. I don't have a problem with there being married workers. But I personally wish to remain unmarried because I have found that in doing that it leaves me freer, without the time and responsibilities that go with the Godly institution of marriage and family life to devote myself to my 'passion', that of seeking to be a tool in God's hand for him to do his work with. I gained a professional qualification and was pursuing a career in that profession until the time that I left that work and dispersed of my property and money to those that I saw had a need and joined a co worker in this work. I did not know what the future would be, but I trusted that the God. There was a recent time when my health was such that I wondered whether I would be able to continue in the work or not. It was ‘pretty bleak’ as I looked out on a job market that was very tight because of the economic conditions and with a qualification that was decades out of date. But I did not feel that I ‘deserved’ or wanted anything from anyone. I feel that in respect to the years that I have spent in this work that at best I am just like the servant in that Biblical parable who said “I am an unprofitable servant who has only done that which is required of me” If I was to leave the work no one ‘owes’ me anything. Life might be pretty tight, but if I had enough to eat and a roof over my head then I would be happy with that. I would be better off than millions of our fellow men in a third world country in which I have been working . Regarding what will happen in my old age? I don’t know? But now while I have health and strength I and trying to be a tool that God can use. I am trusting God about the future and old age..if I should live that long. I am only stating my personal views and thoughts, but I know that what I feel would be similar to that of a good number of my colleauges in this matter. Thanks but we don’t want any ‘safety net’s, a knowledge/assurance that if we ‘can’t make it’ in the work that there will be provision/funds for us. I know a number of ex workers of my age and generation. There was no ‘safety net’ fund waiting or given to them when they left or were no longer able to continue in the work. But I do know that members of our fellowship ‘not letting the left hand know what the right hand is doing’ did as they felt moved by God to do in helping these men and women make the transition to ‘civvy’ life again. There is little known about it, but it happens. Regardings pension stuffs, education degrees and whatever else had been mentioned earlier in the thread. I personally would not be interested in being involved in such. I think you’d find a good number of my colleagues would be of a similar mind. ts asked the question of me is it a 'good job or a bad job' As he well knows it is neither! This is not my job, anymore than a father or mother considers their parental responsibilities a job! It is a labour of love. It is has it's tough times and it's time of deep joy and satisfaction...just like being a parent. Amen brother and also know this happens and is so true [ But I do know that members of our fellowship ‘not letting the left hand know what the right hand is doing’ did as they felt moved by God to do in helping these men and women make the transition to ‘civvy’ life again. There is little known about it, but it happens.] It's wonderful blessing when it is God who moves us.
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Post by ScholarGal on Apr 28, 2011 16:31:22 GMT -5
Regardings pension stuffs, education degrees and whatever else had been mentioned earlier in the thread. I personally would not be interested in being involved in such. I think you’d find a good number of my colleagues would be of a similar mind. Thanks for sharing your own experiences and thoughts! The world of pension and social security programs (including government-funded medical care) has changed a lot in the last 80-90 years. Someday I'd love to sit down and discuss this topic with the operators of workers' old age assisted living and care homes.
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Post by ts on May 1, 2011 22:25:11 GMT -5
"ts asked the question of me is it a 'good job or a bad job'"
I agree. The reason I asked the question is because many people here on the board(as well as professing people and even overseers that I had) keep comparing the work to a job. If they are going to do that, then let's talk about what kind of job it is. Is it a good one or a bad one? Or, are the overseers good employers or bad employers?
I agree that the work is a labor of love, just like parenting. It is a calling that comes from God. We do not decide to "go in the work" because that is what we want to do. Also, we do not "leave the work". When we commit our lives to God and the leading of the Holy Spirit, He takes over. We can certainly refuse to do His will. But leaving the suitcase hauling with a same sex companion and remaining unmarried is what the friends traditionally call "leaving the work". That is not scriptural.
I am in agreement with you, noels. What seems apparent is that the workers are working out of tradition and not out of scripture, as they claim. Not everyone is called to lead a celibate life in the ministry. Some are definitely called to be married. And the married life can be very effective in ministry even with children. Living in faith while married with children is very possible because God is the provider.
Was it on this thread or another that we are talking about the several workers who have fathered children and "farmed them out"? That there is a lack of faith. To give the men the benefit of the doubt, they were called into the ministry and called to have a wife and children. They are both callings that are not mutually exclusive. It was their lack of faith that made them give their children away, split up a family and cause the child to not be raised with his biological father.
That there situation is one that is contrary to the gospel. May the hearts of the fathers be turned to the children and the hearts of the children to their fathers.
I disagree with your assessment of "the unprofitable servant." That is the typical meeting assessment of those verses and tends to produce a spirit that you could hardly name "joyful".
Paul did have an expectation of God's people. That they would give to supply the needs of those who were in need. He said that he had to "rob other churches." He wanted them to be generous for their own good, not that he desired a gift. If any has a need and you do not give, how is the love of God in you? I do not think it is unreasonable or judgmental to notice the state of the kingdom based on certain characteristics. I am sure that there is a lot of giving that rightly goes unnoticed. I also think that SOME workers/overseers hide behind the clause, "not let the right hand know what the left hand doeth" to not be generous themselves or not disclose their stowing away of inordinate sums of money. You see, it is not the scriptural part that I disagree with. It is the storing away of money by the workers while their own brothers are in need and they supposedly are penniless.
You may not feel that you deserve help. That is not really the point. If your overseer is sitting on millions of dollars, you leave the work in poor health after many years of service and you don't see but a crumb of that money, Then it is a poor reflection on the state of the work. If your overseer is not generous and is hording money, do you think that that spirit will show in his preaching? Do you think it will have any affect on the friends? Yes, it will.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2011 5:12:22 GMT -5
I can identify with Noels concern for 'economic independence' as one would contemplate leaving the work. Economic concerns are pretty common to a major part of humanity .. nothing unique for ex-workers. There are much harder issues to deal with at this cross-roads in life. For people who have tried to put moral issues (regardless the rights or wrongs involved!) at the basis of life, few wish to reduce it to a financial problem!!
When I left the work, I decided to return all the donations that I received from folks that gave them because of my previous role as 'worker' -- and I was still 'hearty professing' at that time. This 'hearty professing' role continued for 20 years after I left the work.
2x2 indoctrination has built up a painful 'guilt factor' for anyone that would contemplate leaving the work ... the easiest (and most common) way 'out' is to blame it on 'health issues' -- but deep down inside most with the tiniest bit of honesty are aware of the hidden origin of these 'health issues'. The work requires very very little health or strength if ones moral system could be disengaged and disregarded - but for decent people, which most workers are, this can be a big problem - thus deteriorating health!!) I remember refusing to be placed on the 'resting' list when I decided to leave.
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Post by kencoolidge on May 2, 2011 6:10:13 GMT -5
Noels question Did you get to answer the one regarding whether you considered the 2x2ers as part of the Body of Christ or not?
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2011 11:39:21 GMT -5
Noels question Did you get to answer the one regarding whether you considered the 2x2ers as part of the Body of Christ or not? Not sure who you were aiming at Ken -- I suppose no one is really qualified to give a definative answer to that kind of judgement question -- But then the phrazing was if 'you considered' -- and we of course we all can 'consider'. We need to remember that 2x2 membership and workers are ordinary people like everyone else on our planet. Hardly spectacular in any way, neither because of their membership either extra good or extra bad. This would qualify them like anyone else on the earth, for the capacity to please our heavenly father .. or the capacity like anyone on the earth to displease him. To me it is an insane idea to suggest that God is in anyway concerned with which organizational membership ID anyone may hold. My concern would be that proffessing folks would allow the more ugly aspects of 2x2 doctrine to draw them down into an anti-christian mindset as it sometimes obviously has -- but fortunately some folks in the 2x2 ranks seem to be able to resist some of these things.
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Post by ru on May 2, 2011 11:55:35 GMT -5
My concern would be that proffessing folks would allow the more ugly aspects of 2x2 doctrine to draw them down into an anti-christian mindset as it sometimes obviously has -- but fortunately some folks in the 2x2 ranks seem to be able to resist some of these things. What would those aspects be, Edgar? I see two. One is the big E exclusivity cancels out faith, hope, and charity. The other is the protection of the workers' ministry esteem at the cost of care and protection of their flock.
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Post by kencoolidge on May 2, 2011 15:40:33 GMT -5
My concern would be that proffessing folks would allow the more ugly aspects of 2x2 doctrine to draw them down into an anti-christian mindset as it sometimes obviously has -- but fortunately some folks in the 2x2 ranks seem to be able to resist some of these things. What would those aspects be, Edgar? I see two. One is the big E exclusivity cancels out faith, hope, and charity. The other is the protection of the workers' ministry esteem at the cost of care and protection of their flock. Edgar I wanted to repost the original question to refocus the rabbit chase. I agree with your assessment and I believe it is in agreement with my answer on Page 1 I would answer it from my understanding. No group can carte Blanche (unconditional authority; full discretionary power.) be in the Body of Christ. However those within every group under the sun who have been born again are in the body of ChristEdgar/Greg Reviewing thoughts others have stated including the big E Greg addresses there seems to be that many of the F&Ws do not want to be called Christian. I believe someone pointed out that it was even spoken from the platform. Probably they just do not want to be associated with typical denomination stereotype. Seems logical that they would not want to be painted like all those false churches. For those who agree with exclusivity have painted the group out of the body of Christ. I do believe those who sincerely don't buy into that foolishness of exclusivity are indeed brothers and sisters and in the body. ken
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Post by ru on May 2, 2011 15:44:37 GMT -5
What would those aspects be, Edgar? I see two. One is the big E exclusivity cancels out faith, hope, and charity. The other is the protection of the workers' ministry esteem at the cost of care and protection of their flock. Edgar I wanted to repost the original question to refocus the rabbit chase. I agree with your assessment and I believe it is in agreement with my answer on Page 1 I would answer it from my understanding. No group can carte Blanche (unconditional authority; full discretionary power.) be in the Body of Christ. However those within every group under the sun who have been born again are in the body of ChristEdgar/George Reviewing thoughts others have stated including the big E George addresses there seems to be that many of the F&Ws do not want to be called Christian. I believe someone pointed out that it was even spoken from the platform. Probably they just do not want to be associated with typical denomination stereotype. Seems logical that they would not want to be painted like all those false churches. For those who agree with exclusivity have painted the group out of the body of Christ. I do believe those who sincerely don't buy into that foolishness of exclusivity are indeed brothers and sisters and in the body. ken My Mom wanted to call me George, too, as I resemble our Dad much, much more than my older brother named George.
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Post by kencoolidge on May 2, 2011 17:10:13 GMT -5
Greg Must have had senior moment Greg. Sorry Not to be confused with George Lee who I believe is an overseer? ken
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2011 6:01:58 GMT -5
Hi Noels I, of course, know absolutely nothing about you or your situation or feelings -- however 'the work' is an international organizational institution that I am familiar with --Although I am aware of regional differences, there is a considerable part of "the work" that is quite quite common regardless where it may be on this earth. One aspect of working in the European fields that I have worked in is that, because many of these European countries don't have so many 'native' workers, thus the staffs are made up of workers from pretty much all the major 2x2 "political control zones" of the world. There is of course, lots of 'comparing of notes' in the social aspect of conventions, convention preps and other worker activity.
Within 2x2ism they brag about being "the same" all around the world --- At least regarding most of the ugliest aspects of 2x2ism, this is quite true. The open and blatent denial of obvious truth about themselves is one of them -- and it is international!!
However as I understand it, this group wide dishonesty is built on deception and on deeply rooted indoctrination, rather than on a conscious disrespect for genuine truth. Workers have learned a definition of 'honesty' that is more as "a clone of official organizational policy" than it is of an acceptance of basic reality.
Most ex-workers, myself included, perceive things far, far differently with a few years perspective -- than while the 'group leaven', still is able to influence and manipulate the basic functions of their mind and morals.
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Post by kencoolidge on May 3, 2011 6:50:17 GMT -5
Hi Noels I, of course, know absolutely nothing about you or your situation or feelings -- however 'the work' is an international organizational institution that I am familiar with --Although I am aware of regional differences, there is a considerable part of "the work" that is quite quite common regardless where it may be on this earth. One aspect of working in the European fields that I have worked in is that, because many of these European countries don't have so many 'native' workers, thus the staffs are made up of workers from pretty much all the major 2x2 "political control zones" of the world. There is of course, lots of 'comparing of notes' in the social aspect of conventions, convention preps and other worker activity. Within 2x2ism they brag about being "the same" all around the world --- At least regarding most of the ugliest aspects of 2x2ism, this is quite true. The open and blatent denial of obvious truth about themselves is one of them -- and it is international!! However as I understand it, this group wide dishonesty is built on deception and on deeply rooted indoctrination, rather than on a conscious disrespect for genuine truth. Workers have learned a definition of 'honesty' that is more as "a clone of official organizational policy" than it is of an acceptance of basic reality. Most ex-workers, myself included, perceive things far, far differently with a few years perspective -- than while the 'group leaven', still is able to influence and manipulate the basic functions of their mind and morals. Edgar/Noel I was never in the work but I have had conversations with several workers who had contemplated leaving the work and from those conversations it was obvious they were struggling with their ingrained worker/friends thought that once offering for the work it was a liftime committment. Jim Brown who I loved thrashed out his reservations about losing his reward, having nothing to live on, concerns about what the friends would think . Another worker talked about the only way to gracefully leave the work was based on poor health or the care for a relative, all others reasons were shameful. I remember when Joe Crane left the work and married how ugly some of the friends were to him despite how much good he had done. Would you want to leave the work and face that type of response. In some smaller measure those who contemplate leaving the fellowship are faced with the same fear based thinking. ken
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Post by sharonw on May 3, 2011 7:26:16 GMT -5
Hi Noels I, of course, know absolutely nothing about you or your situation or feelings -- however 'the work' is an international organizational institution that I am familiar with --Although I am aware of regional differences, there is a considerable part of "the work" that is quite quite common regardless where it may be on this earth. One aspect of working in the European fields that I have worked in is that, because many of these European countries don't have so many 'native' workers, thus the staffs are made up of workers from pretty much all the major 2x2 "political control zones" of the world. There is of course, lots of 'comparing of notes' in the social aspect of conventions, convention preps and other worker activity. Within 2x2ism they brag about being "the same" all around the world --- At least regarding most of the ugliest aspects of 2x2ism, this is quite true. The open and blatent denial of obvious truth about themselves is one of them -- and it is international!! However as I understand it, this group wide dishonesty is built on deception and on deeply rooted indoctrination, rather than on a conscious disrespect for genuine truth. Workers have learned a definition of 'honesty' that is more as "a clone of official organizational policy" than it is of an acceptance of basic reality. Most ex-workers, myself included, perceive things far, far differently with a few years perspective -- than while the 'group leaven', still is able to influence and manipulate the basic functions of their mind and morals. Edgar/Noel I was never in the work but I have had conversations with several workers who had contemplated leaving the work and from those conversations it was obvious they were struggling with their ingrained worker/friends thought that once offering for the work it was a liftime committment. Jim Brown who I loved thrashed out his reservations about losing his reward, having nothing to live on, concerns about what the friends would think . Another worker talked about the only way to gracefully leave the work was based on poor health or the care for a relative, all others reasons were shameful. I remember when Joe Crane left the work and married how ugly some of the friends were to him despite how much good he had done. Would you want to leave the work and face that type of response. In some smaller measure those who contemplate leaving the fellowship are faced with the same fear based thinking. ken This is quite true for many exiting workers....my own family member who had been in the work close to 30 yrs. went through several years of a psychological warfare which was aided by people's very evident "disappointment" in her exiting the work....the inner conflict she had was enough but to have friends and workers both be coldly friendly and then word comes back that those cold friendly folks said things against her exit in a very derogatory way added to the psychological adjustment 100 per cent. I think it is perhaps hard for workers who are still 100 percent still much in the work to see or understand this until they personally taste it. However there does become a reward for all this psychological warfare...in years down the line the workers usually like to warm the ex workers' homes "because they understand what we go through". Which is a slap in the face to other friends who have a welcome mat out for the workers. As to poor dear Jim Brown....he sought to find himself a mate, but the mate he sought pushed him back into the work so that "he'd finish honorably"....poor man was ailing then and perhaps if he could have found a home that was his in every way he would not have suffered so badly in the end.
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Post by ScholarGal on May 3, 2011 7:38:56 GMT -5
Al, I'd love to see a thread on the worker board about the "lifetime commitment", how current and former workers see it, and how the friends can help current and former workers put aside feelings of guilt when they need to leave the work. Edgar/Noel I was never in the work but I have had conversations with several workers who had contemplated leaving the work and from those conversations it was obvious they were struggling with their ingrained worker/friends thought that once offering for the work it was a liftime committment.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2011 9:52:18 GMT -5
When I was growing up, the source of the lifetime worker commitment idea came from the following scripture and I heard it a lot:
"And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."
However, I haven't heard it for quite a few years now. There is a much greater turnover of workers today than 40 years ago so it would put a lot of pressure on people today....especially those who have to leave the work for true health reasons as well as those who leave for other reasons.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2011 10:41:10 GMT -5
When I was growing up, the source of the lifetime worker commitment idea came from the following scripture and I heard it a lot: "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." However, I haven't heard it for quite a few years now. There is a much greater turnover of workers today than 40 years ago so it would put a lot of pressure on people today....especially those who have to leave the work for true health reasons as well as those who leave for other reasons. We've had a number leave the work in my neck of the woods. As far as I know, they were treated well and one at least has a meeting in his home. However, there were a few of the older friends that couldn't take it easily. Many moons ago, Eldon T came out to our area and spoke with several about a worker leaving to marry, telling the friends that there was nothing dishonorable about him doing so; that he'd been a help to many and now deserved our help in return. I appreciated that.
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Post by kencoolidge on May 3, 2011 12:25:50 GMT -5
When I was growing up, the source of the lifetime worker commitment idea came from the following scripture and I heard it a lot: "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." However, I haven't heard it for quite a few years now. There is a much greater turnover of workers today than 40 years ago so it would put a lot of pressure on people today....especially those who have to leave the work for true health reasons as well as those who leave for other reasons. CD I had heard that too. It was applied to workers leaving the work. Personally I think it misapplication for workers. It I think Jesus was speaking to those who said they wanted to follow him. He was pointing out that it would require a different outlook and approach to life as they knew it. When we said yes little did we know it was a commitment that whatever the circumstance God directed us into that our need would be met. This serving God is a process where new aspects appear every day. ken
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2011 12:41:04 GMT -5
When I was growing up, the source of the lifetime worker commitment idea came from the following scripture and I heard it a lot: "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." However, I haven't heard it for quite a few years now. There is a much greater turnover of workers today than 40 years ago so it would put a lot of pressure on people today....especially those who have to leave the work for true health reasons as well as those who leave for other reasons. CD I had heard that too. It was applied to workers leaving the work. Personally I think it misapplication for workers. It I think Jesus was speaking to those who said they wanted to follow him. He was pointing out that it would require a different outlook and approach to life as they knew it. When we said yes little did we know it was a commitment that whatever the circumstance God directed us into that our need would be met. This serving God is a process where new aspects appear every day. ken I agree Ken. I think the misapplication of this verse caused a huge amount of grief over the years. There was a time when someone leaving the work was not received well by the friends. I'm not sure how their former colleagues treated them. Friends felt that worker betrayed his calling, betrayed God and betrayed the friends by leaving the work. What a huge amount of pressure in those days. Hberry's observations are correct for the change in attitudes. Workers leaving today are not shamed. People are disappointed sometime but generally still respect the choice made. However, the fact that most exits from the work are still classified as "health reasons" means that we still haven't matured enough to be able to handle the real reasons when it is not actually for health reason.
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Post by kencoolidge on May 3, 2011 15:18:12 GMT -5
Noel Thanks for the words rough around the edges. I believe we all are. One of the guys I study put this way "We are all dented cans some more dented but non the less dented. " With this attitude about rough around the edges or all dented cans that I believe God can deal with us and reshape, remove sharp edges and complete the work he has started. thanks for your post ken
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Post by kiwi on May 4, 2011 2:16:40 GMT -5
Noel Thanks for the words rough around the edges. I believe we all are. One of the guys I study put this way "We are all dented cans some more dented but non the less dented. " With this attitude about rough around the edges or all dented cans that I believe God can deal with us and reshape, remove sharp edges and complete the work he has started. thanks for your post ken Any who think they are perfect would be deluded and we constantly hear in our meetings of our imperfections. I like the thought of dented cans and know that God can and will make us like His Son if we give unto Him control of our being.
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Post by ts on May 4, 2011 7:04:16 GMT -5
Edgar's experience and perspective is different to mine....I respect his right to express his. I can only express according to my personal experience and my close relationship with colleagues and not a small number of ex colleagues/workers. So far I have not made acquaintance with any ex colleagues whose feeling would be expressed in these words- Within 2x2ism they brag about being "the same" all around the world --- At least regarding most of the ugliest aspects of 2x2ism, this is quite true. The open and blatent denial of obvious truth about themselves is one of them -- and it is international!!
However as I understand it, this group wide dishonesty is built on deception and on deeply rooted indoctrination, rather than on a conscious disrespect for genuine truth. Workers have learned a definition of 'honesty' that is more as "a clone of official organizational policy" than it is of an acceptance of basic reality.
Most ex-workers, myself included, perceive things far, far differently with a few years perspective -- than while the 'group leaven', still is able to influence and manipulate the basic functions of their mind and morals. I do not discredit Edgar's statement and accept that it expresses his sentiments and the sentiments of a number in his circle of acquaintance, but I do wonder about the use of 'Most' ex-workers? I appreciate the posts of others. Yes some friends and some workers have unrealistic expectations of workers contemplating whether they will continue in the work or not and for those who have left the work. This is unfortunate and makes it all the more stressful for the individual involved. However fortunately there are also friends and workers who are realistic and love and care for the individual involved as a true Christian does. Yuup I agree with the post of the incorrect understanding that some have of the 'No man having put his hand to the plough' verse. When I was growing up there was a dear brother worker who was loved and respected and he used to say we are all in God's workshop...we are all an incomplete work. I know I am yet 'pretty rough around the edges'! So when I see something that would indicate that others also might be 'a bit rough around the edges'...like those with unrealistic expectations about ex workers etc. I remember they also are 'God's workmanship', they maybe could do with a bit of 'refining' or some of their rough edges seen to...just as I do in my rough edges? Ok, so we are all a work in progress. I agree. The workers are there to teach. At one point they taught bad doctrine that said that being in the work is a lifetime commitment. The reason that SOME friends feel the way they do about the work being a full time commitment is because the workers taught it. Why would they not believe it if the workers taught it? They did not just come up with that sentiment on their own. Most other church groups do not have that sentiment regarding their ministers. It isn't even a consideration to shun or despise a preacher if he decides to do something else in life. Noels, I hope that you will look at how other churches operate and think and compare that to the meetings and the way they think. It is a good exercise. It will get you out and talking to other preachers and people from other congregations. Look for "saved" people out there. Don't go to other churches to teach them something. Go to learn. If you go to some preachers in your area and request to speak to them about their ministry and how it works, I am sure there will be some who will be glad to talk to you. I know the reluctance of workers to do that. I have heard that sermon about counterfeit money and how to recognize it. "You do not recognize the false bills by studying false bills. You recognize false bills by studying the true bills." And, of course, the point is that we are not to look into how other churches work. We are just to look at the Bible and follow the Truth that the workers preach. Right? Surely you have heard that sermon before.
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Post by sharonw on May 4, 2011 7:25:05 GMT -5
Noel Thanks for the words rough around the edges. I believe we all are. One of the guys I study put this way "We are all dented cans some more dented but non the less dented. " With this attitude about rough around the edges or all dented cans that I believe God can deal with us and reshape, remove sharp edges and complete the work he has started. thanks for your post ken Perhaps understanding that it is the human component of us that are rough edged or dented. It is said we go on to perfection, but that is not the human perfection...it is spiritual perfection for the human part dies and the spirit goes back to whom it came from...until Jesus bestows on us a perfect body...and from Paul I gather that our eternal body will be like Jesus' resurrected body for we shall know Him and be Known by Him.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 4, 2011 11:57:56 GMT -5
At one point they taught bad doctrine that said that being a full time commitment is because the workers taught it. Why would they not believe it if the workers taught it? They did not just come up with that sentiment on their own. I think this is an important point in relation to many discussions here, ts. Things that are believed generally don't just pop into our heads from thin air - somebody taught it, or at least implied it, or we have experimented, asked questions, analyzed various input (which isn't encouraged in this setting). It's true that we can misunderstand something, but when many people believe the same thing, it had to have come from somewhere. I believe the teaching may be changing - due to whatever pressures and openness to new understandings - but I also believe that some things are only implied more, rather than explicitly stated. A very good suggestion, for any of us. Approaching someone else with a willingness to learn makes for better communication at least, and we generally learn something in the process. I've heard that sermon too, and it occurs to me that there is really no way to know if you're receiving the true bill if you have nothing to gauge it against, and you have only the person bringing it to you to verify its authenticity. If it is real, the carrier need not fear looking at a counterfeit one.
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Post by ts on May 4, 2011 18:47:37 GMT -5
I forgot to say that the workers, having taught a bad doctrine, have an obligation to state openly that they have taught an untruth. Instead, they try to pretend that they never taught that the work was a full time commitment, the workers MUST necessarily remain unmarried to remain in the ministry, and the meetings is the only exclusive truth and way, and women must have a certain dress code. "We never said that. You misunderstood" is the response.
Why not, instead, acknowledge that doctrines that were preached and say "We are sorry we preached that. We no longer believe that anymore" ?
Why not speak it openly from the platform that "some understand or have understood that the work is a full time commitment. However, we would like people to even commit six months or less to filling the need of the harvest in various parts." It is possible to do so and still live in faith. There are people living in faith right now who are ministering the word of God in spirit and in truth who are not workers. Think about it. Have you looked at the fruit of other ministries, noels? Other ministries who do not "sell all and go two and two"? Do you think the fruit of those is bad fruit or do you not know the difference between good and bad fruit of the spirit? Surely, as a man of God, you do know the difference and can commit to an answer. I do not think discerning the spirit and the fruit of righteousness is considered "judgmental". Do you?
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Post by julieoregonchild1968 on Aug 16, 2015 18:10:29 GMT -5
Dr. Wally Baldwin of Oregon assisted with many adoptions. I believe he has passed away. I knew two babies he placed. I'm aware of adoptions from Korea and Vietnam in which the workers were involved, as well as some that were placements of children born to unwed mothers. I'm don't care to say any more, in respect of these families and their privacy. I am one of the children Dr. Baldwin "placed" in a professing home. I don't know if there is a special forum for us, but I desperately need to locate my birth mother. I know her name, maiden name. I have no idea if she was in the truth or not. It is completely up to her, if she would want to meet. But I am in great need of my medical history. I have 4 grown children. They deserve to know what may run through my side to them. I am currently being seen at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, all for a tumor that is hereditary. I need to find out my medical history. Don't want to cause any problems to any current family she may have. I am interested of course, but will respect her wishes.
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Post by howitis on Aug 16, 2015 18:18:40 GMT -5
X's & o's to you, do hope you can find her
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