|
Post by ts on Apr 27, 2011 11:27:01 GMT -5
Sorry Sharonw, but the " unbroken line of succession all the way back to Peter" has been the RC's line for about 1600 years, and the Orthodox Church's " unbroken line of succession all the way back to Andrew" for about a thousand years. We don't make any such claim to human succession - that's just a classic Strawman Argument. We who? I do not see how you can deny that there have been and are workers preaching the unbroken succession doctrine. I agree that it is less now than it used to be. However, there were and are a LOT of friends out there who still believe the unbroken succession doctrine. The workers need to go around and admit that some used to preach that way but that the workers no longer believe that. It is that easy. Confess and repent. Not just repent and pretend they never did wrong to begin with. That method is not healing to those who believed the lie.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 27, 2011 11:38:47 GMT -5
One thought that I would like to address on this thread - about spending $300,000 on the convention grounds, and these improvements not improving the value of the grounds: Is there some way to make improvements to the convention grounds so that the value of the land is improved for the owners? How do other churches handle this with their building improvements - day care centers, Bible camps, church buildings, etc.? When you take a large, expensive house in the middle of a small town(yet a bit secluded) and add metal building with flush toilets(men's dorm and women's dorm), 2 $20,0000 airconditioning units for these large buildings and a large cookhouse down below, right in the yard of the house, you have some things that do not add to the value of the home. While an outbuilding might add to the value of a home in that sort of situation, Overdone buildings do not. You can call them an "investment" but they are not really investments in property as much as investments in the meeting setting. It is obviously more and more a campground setting. If someone were to buy the place as a church or campground, then you would have the idea buyer and have some good equity, for sure. I know that they ARE adding to the property value and taxes and such. I liken the buildings to building swimming pools. Not much monetary return on the investment. Of course, the main purpose is to have convention. They are not duel purpose buildings. They are convention, church buildings.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Apr 27, 2011 11:45:18 GMT -5
One thought that I would like to address on this thread - about spending $300,000 on the convention grounds, and these improvements not improving the value of the grounds: Is there some way to make improvements to the convention grounds so that the value of the land is improved for the owners? How do other churches handle this with their building improvements - day care centers, Bible camps, church buildings, etc.? Well, for one thing they operate on a non-profit status and they enjoy the support of the churches and people that attend there, regardless of church membership. Donations can be tax deductible, so it is an incentive to donate for those who do so. Likewise, (as with convention preps and improvements to the convention grounds) much of what is done is through volunteer labor and donated materials. One big difference is that convention grounds are pretty much only used during convention time, and they are not an outreach to the community. They are for the sole purpose of church member use. Here is a link to the Big Sandy Camp which is owned by the Christian Missionary Alliance. www.bigsandycamp.com/about-administrative-staff.phpDavid Toth, the executive director is a personal friend of mine who just became director this past year. You can read the history of the camp on the website, and see what all activities take place there throughout the year. 5 of us that were going to attend a men's retreat recently got our names in on time, but the retreat was already full. Interestingly enough, this is where our pastor Keith gave his life to the Lord back in the 70's while attending bible camp. His journey since then has been incredible, but is typical of many of the youth that have attended there. This is NOT restricted to CMA members, and our church sponsors kids in order to pay their way there who are from disadvantaged homes so they can be exposed to a Christian environment. I think that the biggest difference is that most churches use their church buildings and property as a source of outreach for everyone rather than just church members. Likewise, the goal is NOT to get anyone to join their church (at least not with the CMA), but rather bring people to an understanding of Jesus and a personal relationship with Him. Buildings are used for a variety of non-church related use sch as AA meetings, potlucks, family reunions, birthday parties, community meetings..... and the list goes on. Because most churches operate as a part of the community rather than a separate entity, they are a great addition to the community at large. Most churches have a website where you can get contact numbers, church information, statements of faith/doctrine etc. Our small church also has a 'food shelf' for helping out needy families that stop in asking for help. Scott
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 27, 2011 11:47:21 GMT -5
However, that isn't the way it works. Just because you work on convention grounds does NOT mean that you are getting construction experience or training. If you got a recommendation from convention ground owners, it would likely be a bogus recommendation. What would they say? "This guy did a lot of construction on my place and he is good at it"? Are convention ground owners qualified to say that? Are they builders? If you look on convention grounds, you will see why they are noted to contain a LOT of cobbed up jobs that the workers did. And, if a worker has given his life and health for the ministry, he might be so sincere in that commitment that he stays in the work long past being able for physical labor. So, he has given up education and given up his health for the sake of the gospel. Now, he is ready to be discarded, according to the present system in place. What about getting a recommendation from the overseer? Now, you might be getting somewhere. Are the overseers qualified to give recommendations? Are they the employer? Are they the boss? Then they are responsible for things like insurance and wages and re education. Is the work a business or isn't it? When this subject comes up, even the workers are prone to saying, "You can't complain about leaving the work with nothing. You volunteered. Besides, there are lots of people who find themselves in midlife without work or proper education." Good, responsible jobs that attract the brightest and the best do not treat their employers that way. I ask you, does the work really want to be compared to a really bad and dead end job that exploits its workers? The fact of the matter is, it is completely unnecessary for the exiting workers to be left high and dry. The workers do have money. It is simply that their priorities are not focused on helping exiting workers. Moral is low in the work, as a result. There are many workers who are there in fear. There is also fierce competition among many to gain the best positions of power so that they are not at the mercy of the whims of others. These are the realities of the work that you do not know until you have experienced it. I walked it very closely with a very close relative, I know the pitfalls and the pain that she suffered, it wasn't easy after nearly 30 yrs in the work. However the point is, don't look down your nose at ANY reccomendations...the more good reccommendations you have the better your chances of securing a job esp. these days when there are many want-to-be-hireds and fewer jobs available because of the economy. This ex-worker was picked BECAUSE of reccomendations and she had no real training but her "work record" in the work stood that she was a reliable employee! The world does NOT look at workers to be anything less then an employee of someone and yes, the overseers would rank as employers almost any where. How many have experienced that same pain that your relative did. You know, many people when leaving a job they love and cannot continue in because of health reasons or whatever, turn to their church for help and support. The group generally has programs or policies or something in place to help these people. The preachers are supposedly the most understanding and instrumental in directing help to these people. When you leave the work, the preachers back off you in general. You are no longer a part of them. No longer "in the know". You "have a different spirit" etc. They don't really have the understanding to help their brothers and sisters. They should actually be the ones with the most understanding. If the workers would just say the word, the friends would pour out their help for an exiting worker. But they largely just ignore the situation. Do some nominal things and move on. If an exiting worker is too hurt, then they get labeled and further isolated.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 27, 2011 12:02:22 GMT -5
I do not like to broadbrush. But "systemic" is sort of a broad spectrum kind of word. Every worker in the system has bought into the game on some level or another even if they are passive. We actually hear workers speak like that from the platform when they speak of people making their choice. "If you don't do anything, you have still made your choice tonight." I was in the work 12 years and had lots and lots of friends. I don't say that I got NO help. I do say that there was not an outpouring of support. I know that I would have gotten on my feet much sooner and much better had I had a guarantee of a few months rent and utilities paid while I was in school as well as health recovery costs met. It would have been very little compared to 12 years of work or compared to a convention upgrade or a funeral. You wonder how the workers do not see the care of a brother as their responsibility. I don't see "systemic" as broadbrushing at all. Systems, like physical structures, are built through specific actions. People live and work within them, doing good and/or evil things. "Broadbrushing" uses statements that imply everyone in a particular group does a particular action. I fully agree with the things you are saying, but I see no way of addressing them without interrogating particular hurtful actions, and acknowledging actions that have been helpful. To refer to Uncle D.ick again, I know that he was involved in some things that have hurt people, but, because I have personally seen him agonizing over how to handle some things, I feel that he felt trapped within a system. I'm not justifying his actions either, but simply attempting to get at the system, and why some people seem to feel trapped within it. I did too for awhile, hardly realizing what was going on - feeling these tensions, yet afraid to question those whom I saw as "the true servants of God." Again, I'm not attempting to contradict or challenge you, but I'm seeking a means of getting at the particulars of cases and issues. I don't feel you are challenging anything I am saying. I agree with you also. I have been speaking of systemic things here on the tmb and been accused of "broadbrushing". I do think there are things that we can say (perhaps with a few exceptions) that ALL workers do and believe world wide. Some of these beliefs are not true. Some of these beliefs are unique to the workers and those who believe what they preach. Some of these beliefs, being unique, cause some unique actions that are, being false, are destructive to people. What we are currently talking about are beliefs in regards to the unique way of the ministry "going forth" (penniless and poor) and the stigma that has been associated with leaving that ministry. The fear of those in the ministry to retain money and the fear of leaving penniless...especially if health has failed in the ministry or one has gotten middle aged or greater in the ministry. For those who like to compare the work to an employer, is the work a good employer or a bad one? Are there efforts to improve the conditions and benefits of the employees? Are there clear rules, guidelines and job descriptions and incentives in the work? Do young workers know the company well when they start? The workers I have talked to had no idea what the work was like until they got with an older companion who proceeded to "break" them. They thought that things were just all smiles and preaching in the work because that is all they saw. They did not know it was more like a boot camp. The public persona of the workers is more like a recruiter persona. In the work is years of boot camp until some distinguish themselves as system guys who can carry on the ruse and lead effectively. What I am asking Noels is, "Is the work compared to a good job or a bad job?"
|
|
|
Post by quizzer on Apr 27, 2011 12:03:36 GMT -5
Scott, Thanks for the info and website. I can see my current overseer leading a bunch of non-professing youths in games of Foosball and Broomball. Always nice to consider the possibilities, quizzer
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Apr 27, 2011 12:37:11 GMT -5
Has our good buddy Noels flown the coop? He's taken a break, I believe...remember the overseer was to be his companion for a bit....and I would suspect that they're into going and doing that normally Noels doesn't do....He/she will be back soon!
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Apr 27, 2011 12:45:20 GMT -5
I walked it very closely with a very close relative, I know the pitfalls and the pain that she suffered, it wasn't easy after nearly 30 yrs in the work. However the point is, don't look down your nose at ANY reccomendations...the more good reccommendations you have the better your chances of securing a job esp. these days when there are many want-to-be-hireds and fewer jobs available because of the economy. This ex-worker was picked BECAUSE of reccomendations and she had no real training but her "work record" in the work stood that she was a reliable employee! The world does NOT look at workers to be anything less then an employee of someone and yes, the overseers would rank as employers almost any where. How many have experienced that same pain that your relative did. You know, many people when leaving a job they love and cannot continue in because of health reasons or whatever, turn to their church for help and support. The group generally has programs or policies or something in place to help these people. The preachers are supposedly the most understanding and instrumental in directing help to these people. When you leave the work, the preachers back off you in general. You are no longer a part of them. No longer "in the know". You "have a different spirit" etc. They don't really have the understanding to help their brothers and sisters. They should actually be the ones with the most understanding. If the workers would just say the word, the friends would pour out their help for an exiting worker. But they largely just ignore the situation. Do some nominal things and move on. If an exiting worker is too hurt, then they get labeled and further isolated. It truly is a very bad crisis for workers to learn how to be friends again and perhaps those that leave the fellowship altogether have even a rougher time of becoming an everyday "Joe" or "Joan". My relative said that she found out how hard it was to be a friend and it made her appreciate the friends a whole lot more...she'd never realized tht life cou.ld be so picky and cantankerous to just get along and have a roof over one's head and a bit of cash to pay the bills! Yes, she had it very hard.....she had been just a very very young untried lady when she went it....
|
|
|
Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 27, 2011 13:00:19 GMT -5
I don't feel you are challenging anything I am saying. I agree with you also. I have been speaking of systemic things here on the tmb and been accused of "broadbrushing". I do think there are things that we can say (perhaps with a few exceptions) that ALL workers do and believe world wide. Some of these beliefs are not true. Some of these beliefs are unique to the workers and those who believe what they preach. Some of these beliefs, being unique, cause some unique actions that are, being false, are destructive to people. What we are currently talking about are beliefs in regards to the unique way of the ministry "going forth" (penniless and poor) and the stigma that has been associated with leaving that ministry. The fear of those in the ministry to retain money and the fear of leaving penniless...especially if health has failed in the ministry or one has gotten middle aged or greater in the ministry. For those who like to compare the work to an employer, is the work a good employer or a bad one? Are there efforts to improve the conditions and benefits of the employees? Are there clear rules, guidelines and job descriptions and incentives in the work? Do young workers know the company well when they start? The workers I have talked to had no idea what the work was like until they got with an older companion who proceeded to "break" them. They thought that things were just all smiles and preaching in the work because that is all they saw. They did not know it was more like a boot camp. The public persona of the workers is more like a recruiter persona. In the work is years of boot camp until some distinguish themselves as system guys who can carry on the ruse and lead effectively. What I am asking Noels is, "Is the work compared to a good job or a bad job?" Yes, the comparisons to employers can be deceptive, because of the lack of clear guidelines, as you point out. I do see some employers using similar methods, but they do have the constraints of the law, while the system developed by the workers tends to place them "above the law," as well as above academic analysis or any other challenge. And, for those who might object, I'm not accusing all workers of being bad - we can point to numerous ones who attempt to live a Godly life, and who don't need a law to regulate them. But assuming that they're all this way, or that there is no system, hides the hurtful actions . . .
|
|
|
Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 27, 2011 13:06:31 GMT -5
It truly is a very bad crisis for workers to learn how to be friends again and perhaps those that leave the fellowship altogether have even a rougher time of becoming an everyday "Joe" or "Joan". I found that it entailed re-forming every relationship - with friends and relatives. This doesn't mean I enjoyed being "higher" than them, but simply that there is a certain set of relationships developed, and then, when you meet again, and everyone is aware that you have a new role, you have to kind of "renegotiate" and develop a new relationship. Similar things happen in a divorce, or with the death of a spouse. We probably all do this at some level in different parts of our lives, but with leaving the work, it's basically a person's entire world that is changed. It pays to recognize this kind of "trauma" for anyone that is going through it, whether it's associated with the work or not.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 27, 2011 13:10:41 GMT -5
How many have experienced that same pain that your relative did. You know, many people when leaving a job they love and cannot continue in because of health reasons or whatever, turn to their church for help and support. The group generally has programs or policies or something in place to help these people. The preachers are supposedly the most understanding and instrumental in directing help to these people. When you leave the work, the preachers back off you in general. You are no longer a part of them. No longer "in the know". You "have a different spirit" etc. They don't really have the understanding to help their brothers and sisters. They should actually be the ones with the most understanding. If the workers would just say the word, the friends would pour out their help for an exiting worker. But they largely just ignore the situation. Do some nominal things and move on. If an exiting worker is too hurt, then they get labeled and further isolated. It truly is a very bad crisis for workers to learn how to be friends again and perhaps those that leave the fellowship altogether have even a rougher time of becoming an everyday "Joe" or "Joan". My relative said that she found out how hard it was to be a friend and it made her appreciate the friends a whole lot more...she'd never realized tht life cou.ld be so picky and cantankerous to just get along and have a roof over one's head and a bit of cash to pay the bills! Yes, she had it very hard.....she had been just a very very young untried lady when she went it.... What is amazing is how such a fundamental misunderstanding and misperception of the workers and friends could happen right under their noses for so long with no remedy. They resist even the suggestion that there is something wrong with the system and would rather see their own brothers and sisters crash and burn in the stresses and abuses. Where the ministry could be the most help in the worst needs, they fail. Other churches have been known to pick up the pieces where the workers have refused to help their own people.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 27, 2011 13:17:44 GMT -5
It truly is a very bad crisis for workers to learn how to be friends again and perhaps those that leave the fellowship altogether have even a rougher time of becoming an everyday "Joe" or "Joan". I found that it entailed re-forming every relationship - with friends and relatives. This doesn't mean I enjoyed being "higher" than them, but simply that there is a certain set of relationships developed, and then, when you meet again, and everyone is aware that you have a new role, you have to kind of "renegotiate" and develop a new relationship. Similar things happen in a divorce, or with the death of a spouse. We probably all do this at some level in different parts of our lives, but with leaving the work, it's basically a person's entire world that is changed. It pays to recognize this kind of "trauma" for anyone that is going through it, whether it's associated with the work or not. The workers do resist getting professional training for situations like this. That is what they need. Sort of like the training that they are getting with Ministry Safe. They just need to extend the training to include many other aspects of ministry. It just shows how out of touch the workers are with the world. For example, what did they tell them in Ministry Safe that a responsible adult with children would not know? Be aware of boundaries and protect those boundaries. Some workers were SHOCKED that it was the first time they had heard that info. I am sure that there would be the same sort of shock if they were to take other courses in ministry. I highly recommend they do so for their own safety. There are workers and overseers today who will one day leave the work and wish that they had paid more attention to the issues of workers leaving the work while they had the power and influence to do so.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 27, 2011 13:29:18 GMT -5
I see no drawback to the work showing their appreciation to a worker for their years of labor in helping them get on their feet.
The work gets a good reputation and testimony and they also get a dedicated and qualified individual adding productively to the ministry from the work force. I am sure that MANY workers leave the work disillusioned because of the treatment they received and quit giving to the ministry.
Perhaps there are many who leave and still give to the ministry and are productive. However, you would not lose those individuals if the work helped the workers as they left the work.
I can guarantee that you would have more ex workers still in the church if the workers did this. I say this not because the workers would be "buying" exworkers. I say this because if the workers had a generous attitude, they would be showing forth the nature of Christ, which is what they preach. I do not see any drawback in that.
Clearday would mention a "moral hazard" here. I do not think there are many workers leaving the work who would be tripped up by such a moral hazard. If so, the work is in itself a moral hazard and harbouring people of weak moral character.....surely that isn't the case.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 27, 2011 14:02:20 GMT -5
If there are so many workers of such weak moral character as to take help from their brothers as a "moral hazard" perhaps it is time to look at the reasons there are so many with such weak character.
Granted, there are going to be a few such characters in any group. If they are few(as I would hope that the workers, in their wisdom, would ensure in the screening process for the work) then they will not significantly affect the coffers of the work were they to be helped. These few could be helped with professional emotional and job counseling as well as schooling and training. Then, you can actually produce a healthy soul and spirit that is productive in society and an inspiration.
|
|
|
Post by kiwi on Apr 27, 2011 16:39:49 GMT -5
If there are so many workers of such weak moral character as to take help from their brothers as a "moral hazard" perhaps it is time to look at the reasons there are so many with such weak character. Granted, there are going to be a few such characters in any group. If they are few(as I would hope that the workers, in their wisdom, would ensure in the screening process for the work) then they will not significantly affect the coffers of the work were they to be helped. These few could be helped with professional emotional and job counseling as well as schooling and training. Then, you can actually produce a healthy soul and spirit that is productive in society and an inspiration. Arrogance and self righteousness comes to my mind with this post.
|
|
|
Post by quizzer on Apr 27, 2011 17:23:37 GMT -5
Ummm...didn't you address this stuff on another thread?
|
|
|
Post by fred on Apr 27, 2011 17:48:25 GMT -5
If there are so many workers of such weak moral character as to take help from their brothers as a "moral hazard" perhaps it is time to look at the reasons there are so many with such weak character. Granted, there are going to be a few such characters in any group. If they are few(as I would hope that the workers, in their wisdom, would ensure in the screening process for the work) then they will not significantly affect the coffers of the work were they to be helped. These few could be helped with professional emotional and job counseling as well as schooling and training. Then, you can actually produce a healthy soul and spirit that is productive in society and an inspiration. Arrogance and self righteousness comes to my mind with this post. Really...?? Commonsense and clear thinking came to my mind, but there you go.
|
|
|
Post by pinky on Apr 27, 2011 18:02:30 GMT -5
Kiwi, you're not throwing stones, are you?
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Apr 27, 2011 18:21:29 GMT -5
It's amazing to me how much of this kind of thing runs right under some people's noses and yet when it's brought up to be such a problem, they seem to be able to say "I never saw such a thing!"
Some people are left without a clue, I suppose....
|
|
|
Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 27, 2011 18:50:32 GMT -5
It's amazing to me how much of this kind of thing runs right under some people's noses and yet when it's brought up to be such a problem, they seem to be able to say "I never saw such a thing!" Some people are left without a clue, I suppose.... I've felt the same way too, but then, I have to admit that I was aware of things - like the Gilroy convention ground debacle - and was unable to see what was going on, until I was personally affected. And I was Clair Bone's last companion in California (he had one year in Oregon after that). I knew what was going on with his parents, felt sorry for them, yet I was still unable to fully see what was going on. I've been aware of other things too, though perhaps somewhat less close to them. It seems like God knows the time to "wake us up" and lead us on . . .
|
|
|
Post by kiwi on Apr 27, 2011 20:56:04 GMT -5
Kiwi, you're not throwing stones, are you? Nah, who me? ;D
|
|
|
Post by kiwi on Apr 27, 2011 20:56:33 GMT -5
Ummm...didn't you address this stuff on another thread? Oh sorry there quizzie ;D
|
|
|
Post by kiwi on Apr 27, 2011 20:57:41 GMT -5
It's amazing to me how much of this kind of thing runs right under some people's noses and yet when it's brought up to be such a problem, they seem to be able to say "I never saw such a thing!" Some people are left without a clue, I suppose.... Yea like a big drip aye? ;D
|
|
|
Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 27, 2011 22:01:56 GMT -5
Thanks, noels.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Apr 27, 2011 23:09:36 GMT -5
I have not had time to be looking much at TMB the last few days, but I have just read thru the most recent three or four pages of this thread. These covered discussion of what happens to workers if they leave the work and what happens when they get old and the suggestion of those in the US getting listed the pension/social security scheme or whatever you call it there. Maybe I am going to have this 'problem' when I post from now on...that as a worker whatever I post could be taken by some to 'represent the 'establishment'/'the official line' Well I am just one ordinary 'rank and file' worker. I have no 'seniority', not involved in the making of arrangements, lists, conventions etc etc. So what I will be posting is simply my personal experience ,views, thoughts,beliefs etc. But they are views/thoughts/beliefs that I will state openly with all, to those within our fellowship and with those not part of our fellowship. When I started in the work, it was after a number of years of struggling against a conviction I felt inside me that God was calling me to give my life to share the Gospel with others and to be a shepherd amongst those in the fellowship. When I started in the work I dispersed of all that I had except for my personal clothing which I could carry in a bag and suit carrier. In the following years I have sought to continue to live like this. I need to have 'clean outs' to get me back to the basics, to the way in which I have chosen to live. If I get given more money that I need for my immediate needs, then I send it on to a colleague where they may be needing it. I personally decided to forgo the normal, natural institution of marriage. I am a normal man but with the help of God and others I have so far managed to remain unmarried and relationship free. I don't have a problem with there being married workers. But I personally wish to remain unmarried because I have found that in doing that it leaves me freer, without the time and responsibilities that go with the Godly institution of marriage and family life to devote myself to my 'passion', that of seeking to be a tool in God's hand for him to do his work with. I gained a professional qualification and was pursuing a career in that profession until the time that I left that work and dispersed of my property and money to those that I saw had a need and joined a co worker in this work. I did not know what the future would be, but I trusted that the God. There was a recent time when my health was such that I wondered whether I would be able to continue in the work or not. It was ‘pretty bleak’ as I looked out on a job market that was very tight because of the economic conditions and with a qualification that was decades out of date. But I did not feel that I ‘deserved’ or wanted anything from anyone. I feel that in respect to the years that I have spent in this work that at best I am just like the servant in that Biblical parable who said “I am an unprofitable servant who has only done that which is required of me” If I was to leave the work no one ‘owes’ me anything. Life might be pretty tight, but if I had enough to eat and a roof over my head then I would be happy with that. I would be better off than millions of our fellow men in a third world country in which I have been working . Regarding what will happen in my old age? I don’t know? But now while I have health and strength I and trying to be a tool that God can use. I am trusting God about the future and old age..if I should live that long. I am only stating my personal views and thoughts, but I know that what I feel would be similar to that of a good number of my colleauges in this matter. Thanks but we don’t want any ‘safety net’s, a knowledge/assurance that if we ‘can’t make it’ in the work that there will be provision/funds for us. I know a number of ex workers of my age and generation. There was no ‘safety net’ fund waiting or given to them when they left or were no longer able to continue in the work. But I do know that members of our fellowship ‘not letting the left hand know what the right hand is doing’ did as they felt moved by God to do in helping these men and women make the transition to ‘civvy’ life again. There is little known about it, but it happens. Regardings pension stuffs, education degrees and whatever else had been mentioned earlier in the thread. I personally would not be interested in being involved in such. I think you’d find a good number of my colleagues would be of a similar mind. ts asked the question of me is it a 'good job or a bad job' As he well knows it is neither! This is not my job, anymore than a father or mother considers their parental responsibilities a job! It is a labour of love. It is has it's tough times and it's time of deep joy and satisfaction...just like being a parent. Thanks for that very open and honest post noels! I think it would be nice if more workers were willing to post openly here on the board that way. It really isn't fair when members of the TMB gang up on the workers that post here and try to force them into being a spokesperson for all workers. Just as we all have our own individual relationship with Jesus/God, likewise pastors/priests/workers etc also are individuals with individual thoughts and experiences, and we should all take that into consideration when we read what they share. I know that the workers that I correspond with are all a bit different in how they feel about certain subjects, and some of their thoughts and concerns are not always in keeping with 'the party line'. I think that is a good thing..... Scott
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2011 23:45:56 GMT -5
I agree, nice post noels.
Posting your own personal views will be respected here I expect, especially if you regularly state it is your own personal view (you might want to add that disclaimer to the bottom of your posts where many participants have put sayings and email addresses). There will always be someone who will jump on something that is different from the mainstream of workers and try to make something of it......but that would just be noise worth ignoring. We are all different and should be unified in love, not unified in being cookie cutter robots all saying the same thing all the time.
|
|
|
Post by Happy Feet on Apr 28, 2011 4:01:09 GMT -5
Thanks noels, look forward to hearing more.
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Apr 28, 2011 6:49:59 GMT -5
I have not had time to be looking much at TMB the last few days, but I have just read thru the most recent three or four pages of this thread. These covered discussion of what happens to workers if they leave the work and what happens when they get old and the suggestion of those in the US getting listed the pension/social security scheme or whatever you call it there. Maybe I am going to have this 'problem' when I post from now on...that as a worker whatever I post could be taken by some to 'represent the 'establishment'/'the official line' Well I am just one ordinary 'rank and file' worker. I have no 'seniority', not involved in the making of arrangements, lists, conventions etc etc. So what I will be posting is simply my personal experience ,views, thoughts,beliefs etc. But they are views/thoughts/beliefs that I will state openly with all, to those within our fellowship and with those not part of our fellowship. When I started in the work, it was after a number of years of struggling against a conviction I felt inside me that God was calling me to give my life to share the Gospel with others and to be a shepherd amongst those in the fellowship. When I started in the work I dispersed of all that I had except for my personal clothing which I could carry in a bag and suit carrier. In the following years I have sought to continue to live like this. I need to have 'clean outs' to get me back to the basics, to the way in which I have chosen to live. If I get given more money that I need for my immediate needs, then I send it on to a colleague where they may be needing it. I personally decided to forgo the normal, natural institution of marriage. I am a normal man but with the help of God and others I have so far managed to remain unmarried and relationship free. I don't have a problem with there being married workers. But I personally wish to remain unmarried because I have found that in doing that it leaves me freer, without the time and responsibilities that go with the Godly institution of marriage and family life to devote myself to my 'passion', that of seeking to be a tool in God's hand for him to do his work with. I gained a professional qualification and was pursuing a career in that profession until the time that I left that work and dispersed of my property and money to those that I saw had a need and joined a co worker in this work. I did not know what the future would be, but I trusted that the God. There was a recent time when my health was such that I wondered whether I would be able to continue in the work or not. It was ‘pretty bleak’ as I looked out on a job market that was very tight because of the economic conditions and with a qualification that was decades out of date. But I did not feel that I ‘deserved’ or wanted anything from anyone. I feel that in respect to the years that I have spent in this work that at best I am just like the servant in that Biblical parable who said “I am an unprofitable servant who has only done that which is required of me” If I was to leave the work no one ‘owes’ me anything. Life might be pretty tight, but if I had enough to eat and a roof over my head then I would be happy with that. I would be better off than millions of our fellow men in a third world country in which I have been working . Regarding what will happen in my old age? I don’t know? But now while I have health and strength I and trying to be a tool that God can use. I am trusting God about the future and old age..if I should live that long. I am only stating my personal views and thoughts, but I know that what I feel would be similar to that of a good number of my colleauges in this matter. Thanks but we don’t want any ‘safety net’s, a knowledge/assurance that if we ‘can’t make it’ in the work that there will be provision/funds for us. I know a number of ex workers of my age and generation. There was no ‘safety net’ fund waiting or given to them when they left or were no longer able to continue in the work. But I do know that members of our fellowship ‘not letting the left hand know what the right hand is doing’ did as they felt moved by God to do in helping these men and women make the transition to ‘civvy’ life again. There is little known about it, but it happens. Regardings pension stuffs, education degrees and whatever else had been mentioned earlier in the thread. I personally would not be interested in being involved in such. I think you’d find a good number of my colleagues would be of a similar mind. ts asked the question of me is it a 'good job or a bad job' As he well knows it is neither! This is not my job, anymore than a father or mother considers their parental responsibilities a job! It is a labour of love. It is has it's tough times and it's time of deep joy and satisfaction...just like being a parent. A very hearty welcome back Noels...I missed you but knew with a companion that often things go a different direction then perhaps one has planned, but hey! That happens in civilian life! Thanks for being open as to your life's decisions and how you see things...I have no problem with those decisions as it appears you were well informed when you made them.
|
|