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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 26, 2011 19:25:18 GMT -5
The workers who were dealing with Alexander(who has adopted children) told him that they have never seen an adoption turn out well. The basically said that he chose to adopt those problems and those are the problems that he has to live with. So the workers are showing no compassion for Alexander and shunning him because of the adopted children that he has. However, they encourage the workers who have children to put the up for adoption....or, "farm them out" as it were. Sounds more and more like the workers find some way to justify themselves rather than finding ways of being righteous. It's interesting that the workers would tell him that, as there are numerous adoptions which the workers have been involved in that have worked out beautifully.
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Post by Gene on Apr 26, 2011 19:32:12 GMT -5
Yeah - like when that guy Joseph adopted the child of his bride -- that seemed to work out okay.
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Post by ts on Apr 26, 2011 19:51:23 GMT -5
The workers who were dealing with Alexander(who has adopted children) told him that they have never seen an adoption turn out well. The basically said that he chose to adopt those problems and those are the problems that he has to live with. So the workers are showing no compassion for Alexander and shunning him because of the adopted children that he has. However, they encourage the workers who have children to put the up for adoption....or, "farm them out" as it were. Sounds more and more like the workers find some way to justify themselves rather than finding ways of being righteous. It's interesting that the workers would tell him that, as there are numerous adoptions which the workers have been involved in that have worked out beautifully. Personally I have never heard of the workers helping out with adoptions. I am not saying it does not happen.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 26, 2011 19:52:24 GMT -5
I think this is a great idea. And some overseers did suggest things like this - that a worker have some college - or a job skill, such as carpentry. Many of us have left the work well before retirement age, yet with no "marketable" skills. But then, this happens to others too - finding themselves suddenly unemployed, and needing to get new training or schooling at middle age . . . No, leaving the work and leaving a job is a poor comparison. When you go into the work you consciously forsake providing for yourself. It is a requirement. The promise is that you will be taken care of. The workers have failed in their promises. They have the money to do exactly what quizzer suggested. However, they prefer to hold on to their "trust" funds and save them for building convention grounds rather and rainy days(their own and not their exiting brothers' rainy days). What quizzer suggested would cost phenomenally little and the pay back would only grow. I am very surprised that the workers do not see the wisdom in investing in their own people who have given their lives in the harvest field. What more committed and dedicated people can you ask for? Yet they cast them off like tissue paper to fend for themselves in an obviously dire and stressful time in their lives. They trust them with the most precious commodity the world could have, the gospel, but they do not trust that they will wisely use any amount of money and training that the work has to offer them after they leave the work. Makes no sense. Further, to compare the work like a job means that your service for God and commitment to souls is done for pay and that work suddenly quits when one is no longer actively going around with a companion(or, for that matter it suggest that a worker is necessarily preaching the gospel on the merit of having a suitcase and a companion). I think that there are many workers who, like myself, freely gave their lives for the harvest field. It is not out of line to expect that the friends and workers would freely give of their natural provision to ensure that the exiting workers are trained and taken care of until they get on their feet. The workers treat exiting workers like a bad investment. However, spending a year working to build a new convention ground that cost $300,000 (and does not significantly raise the property value of the individual's convention home) as a good investment of worker staff time and friend money. Well, the sensible thing to do then is when a worker with any physical ability left should go for a year to a conv. ground or conv. grounds and build new buildings for the fellowship and thus he/she would be getting on the job training for a new job plus he/she would be taken care of by the conv. ground owners and perhaps the workers do give a bit of money so that the owners are not over drawn on their goodwill. Then the exiting worker has a "work history" for a year and he/she should get a letter of reccomendation fromt he conv. ground owners as well as the overseer of that area and maybe one or two of the other workers and friends in that area....set up for future work, sounds like to me.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 26, 2011 20:00:46 GMT -5
Dr. Wally Baldwin of Oregon assisted with many adoptions. I believe he has passed away. I knew two babies he placed.
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Post by ts on Apr 26, 2011 20:09:02 GMT -5
No, leaving the work and leaving a job is a poor comparison. When you go into the work you consciously forsake providing for yourself. It is a requirement. The promise is that you will be taken care of. The workers have failed in their promises. They have the money to do exactly what quizzer suggested. However, they prefer to hold on to their "trust" funds and save them for building convention grounds rather and rainy days(their own and not their exiting brothers' rainy days). What quizzer suggested would cost phenomenally little and the pay back would only grow. I am very surprised that the workers do not see the wisdom in investing in their own people who have given their lives in the harvest field. What more committed and dedicated people can you ask for? Yet they cast them off like tissue paper to fend for themselves in an obviously dire and stressful time in their lives. They trust them with the most precious commodity the world could have, the gospel, but they do not trust that they will wisely use any amount of money and training that the work has to offer them after they leave the work. Makes no sense. Further, to compare the work like a job means that your service for God and commitment to souls is done for pay and that work suddenly quits when one is no longer actively going around with a companion(or, for that matter it suggest that a worker is necessarily preaching the gospel on the merit of having a suitcase and a companion). I think that there are many workers who, like myself, freely gave their lives for the harvest field. It is not out of line to expect that the friends and workers would freely give of their natural provision to ensure that the exiting workers are trained and taken care of until they get on their feet. The workers treat exiting workers like a bad investment. However, spending a year working to build a new convention ground that cost $300,000 (and does not significantly raise the property value of the individual's convention home) as a good investment of worker staff time and friend money. Well, the sensible thing to do then is when a worker with any physical ability left should go for a year to a conv. ground or conv. grounds and build new buildings for the fellowship and thus he/she would be getting on the job training for a new job plus he/she would be taken care of by the conv. ground owners and perhaps the workers do give a bit of money so that the owners are not over drawn on their goodwill. Then the exiting worker has a "work history" for a year and he/she should get a letter of reccomendation fromt he conv. ground owners as well as the overseer of that area and maybe one or two of the other workers and friends in that area....set up for future work, sounds like to me. However, that isn't the way it works. Just because you work on convention grounds does NOT mean that you are getting construction experience or training. If you got a recommendation from convention ground owners, it would likely be a bogus recommendation. What would they say? "This guy did a lot of construction on my place and he is good at it"? Are convention ground owners qualified to say that? Are they builders? If you look on convention grounds, you will see why they are noted to contain a LOT of cobbed up jobs that the workers did. And, if a worker has given his life and health for the ministry, he might be so sincere in that commitment that he stays in the work long past being able for physical labor. So, he has given up education and given up his health for the sake of the gospel. Now, he is ready to be discarded, according to the present system in place. What about getting a recommendation from the overseer? Now, you might be getting somewhere. Are the overseers qualified to give recommendations? Are they the employer? Are they the boss? Then they are responsible for things like insurance and wages and re education. Is the work a business or isn't it? When this subject comes up, even the workers are prone to saying, "You can't complain about leaving the work with nothing. You volunteered. Besides, there are lots of people who find themselves in midlife without work or proper education." Good, responsible jobs that attract the brightest and the best do not treat their employers that way. I ask you, does the work really want to be compared to a really bad and dead end job that exploits its workers? The fact of the matter is, it is completely unnecessary for the exiting workers to be left high and dry. The workers do have money. It is simply that their priorities are not focused on helping exiting workers. Moral is low in the work, as a result. There are many workers who are there in fear. There is also fierce competition among many to gain the best positions of power so that they are not at the mercy of the whims of others. These are the realities of the work that you do not know until you have experienced it.
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Post by ts on Apr 26, 2011 20:35:06 GMT -5
Sharon, if the workers and convention ground owners are going to assist in the workers getting jobs and such, why not state in the beginning, "This is what you can expect in the work..."? Otherwise it is an open ended thing. That way the workers know what to expect. I think that would be healthy boundaries.
What you have is some of the more popular or better funded workers(with families in the meetings and such) set themselves up better. It looks like they are living in faith but they are very well padded. There should be an effort to ensure that all are taken care of equally.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 26, 2011 20:46:44 GMT -5
You make some good points, ts. Just because you work on convention grounds does NOT mean that you are getting construction experience or training. If you got a recommendation from convention ground owners, it would likely be a bogus recommendation. What would they say? "This guy did a lot of construction on my place and he is good at it"? Are convention ground owners qualified to say that? Are they builders? If you look on convention grounds, you will see why they are noted to contain a LOT of cobbed up jobs that the workers did. It's true that recommendations need to come from someone within an industry, and time spent helping on convention grounds still wouldn't include any formal training. Some of the newer grounds (California's Mtn. Ranch and Shelter Valley) are being built to higher standards, but convention grounds have been notoriously "cobbled together" in many places. Though I didn't have job skills, my overseer (Richard Middleton) was helpful in verifying that I had spent 18 years as a minister with Christian Conventions, when I was looking into some areas related to the Pacific Islands, in which my experience out here in the work was applicable. I do believe there is a lot of fear for one's future in contemplating leaving the work. To be fair, I do want to mention that Richard Middleton offered to help me monetarily when I left the work, but I don't know how much he had in mind, as I thanked him but refused it. I of course had different feelings about the work at that time than I do now. Very true.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 26, 2011 20:51:38 GMT -5
Dr. Wally Baldwin of Oregon assisted with many adoptions. I believe he has passed away. I knew two babies he placed. I'm aware of adoptions from Korea and Vietnam in which the workers were involved, as well as some that were placements of children born to unwed mothers. I'm don't care to say any more, in respect of these families and their privacy.
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Post by rational on Apr 26, 2011 20:57:53 GMT -5
TS, I'm hoping it doesn't go too fast and furious for Noels...it can really spin one around and around when that happens and it does happen....I'd think to keep him/her feeling half way okay with the forum might do as much good....and I do agree that the "truth" will hurt some but then hopefully it won't become personal for him/her! BTW, I cringe when Noels crosses Rational...but then Noels may be just the man/woman to handle Rational! Noels states his/her beliefs. I have no problem with people's beliefs. Being able to differentiate between facts and beliefs makes all the difference.
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Post by rational on Apr 26, 2011 21:00:11 GMT -5
Instead of suggesting a retirement fund, or a golden parachute, for workers needing to leave the work, how about re-training? No one is allowed to enter the work unless they have (at least) an associate's degree from college. A bachelor's degree is preferred. Also, while in the work, a worker can take one college course per college semester. There are certain colleges that hold credits from other universities. Workers could apply to these universities, and transfer their credits from whichever college is closest to their field. This way, workers could have the needed training to leave the work when they wanted. Also, they couldn't complain about "worldly" education, anymore. I think this is a great idea. And some overseers did suggest things like this - that a worker have some college - or a job skill, such as carpentry. Many of us have left the work well before retirement age, yet with no "marketable" skills. But then, this happens to others too - finding themselves suddenly unemployed, and needing to get new training or schooling at middle age . . . Isn't it really a selling job? You have something that you want people to buy. Think it would transfer to selling, say, cars?
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Post by ts on Apr 26, 2011 21:02:57 GMT -5
I do believe there is a lot of fear for one's future in contemplating leaving the work. To be fair, I do want to mention that Richard Middleton offered to help me monetarily when I left the work, but I don't know how much he had in mind, as I thanked him but refused it. I of course had different feelings about the work at that time than I do now. That is just it, he offers you monetary help without producing the cash. What if all the friends came up to the workers after gospel meeting, shook their hands and said to them, "If you need anything, just ask." How many of the workers would go up to them and give them a list of their needs? Yet, the workers think that is an ok way of doing business. "Freely you have received, freely give" does not seem to apply to the workers. Nor does the parable of the good samaritan. The GS gave the innkeeper money and said if he needed more for the care of the wounded man that he would pay him when he returned. The workers preach that but do not practice it in a practical way. They prefer to spiritualize that parable. Yet, I have heard numerous times at the FUNERALS of workers that they have to tell the friends to STOP sending money because there was enough. That is fine, but aren't the living more important than the dead? The living are going through crisis. The dead are resting. Come on. Let the workers look forward to something more than a good funeral if they are good boys and girls and stay in the work!!!!
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 26, 2011 21:25:54 GMT -5
I think this is a great idea. And some overseers did suggest things like this - that a worker have some college - or a job skill, such as carpentry. Many of us have left the work well before retirement age, yet with no "marketable" skills. But then, this happens to others too - finding themselves suddenly unemployed, and needing to get new training or schooling at middle age . . . Isn't it really a selling job? You have something that you want people to buy. Think it would transfer to selling, say, cars? Maybe that's why I had very few "converts." I don't care for sales.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 26, 2011 21:31:37 GMT -5
That is just it, he offers you monetary help without producing the cash. What if all the friends came up to the workers after gospel meeting, shook their hands and said to them, "If you need anything, just ask." How many of the workers would go up to them and give them a list of their needs? I may be wrong, but I do feel that Uncle D.ick was sincere in his offer, and would have helped me had I accepted the offer. However, many of the issues you bring up are valid concerns.
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Post by ts on Apr 26, 2011 21:56:46 GMT -5
That is just it, he offers you monetary help without producing the cash. What if all the friends came up to the workers after gospel meeting, shook their hands and said to them, "If you need anything, just ask." How many of the workers would go up to them and give them a list of their needs? I may be wrong, but I do feel that Uncle D.ick was sincere in his offer, and would have helped me had I accepted the offer. However, many of the issues you bring up are valid concerns. I am not trying to question Dick's sincerity. All I am saying is that the culture of the work is not bent towards really giving but nominal help to exiting workers. I don't know about in your part of the country, but here you often hear workers say something about not wanting to "be a burden to the work." There is a whole mentality that if you are an exiting worker or a sick worker that you are a burden to the spreading of the gospel of Jesus Christ. You have hindered His word because you require assistance. I hope that it is clear that this sort of thought is very dysfunctional. This is where the idea of the work being like a job begins to blur. The work is purported to be like a family when it is convenient...when there are no problems and everyone is happy and getting along like at convention. They don't like to hear that a worker cannot make it because of the abuse in the work. They say that he left because of "nerves". Really, the intimidation and guilt trip can be so bad that a worker can leave the work in physical and mental shambles and feel guilty to even accept help from the workers for fear of "being a burden to the work". It just isn't fair to try to sit back and make a reasonable assessment of the whole situation of leaving the work without adding in the very real factor that the workers send out unclear and confusing messages about what to expect from the work. You are just to trust them. They call the shots. They are the only true ministry. That is what we preached and believed. Do they really want to look like a cult? They have that reputation with my unprofessing family. Do the workers care about that? No, they do not.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 26, 2011 22:02:20 GMT -5
I may be wrong, but I do feel that Uncle D.ick was sincere in his offer, and would have helped me had I accepted the offer. However, many of the issues you bring up are valid concerns. I am not trying to question Richard's sincerity. All I am saying is that the culture of the work is not bent towards really giving but nominal help to exiting workers. I don't know about in your part of the country, but here you often hear workers say something about not wanting to "be a burden to the work." There is a whole mentality that if you are an exiting worker or a sick worker that you are a burden to the spreading of the gospel of Jesus Christ. You have hindered His word because you require assistance. I hope that it is clear that this sort of thought is very dysfunctional. This is where the idea of the work being like a job begins to blur. The work is purported to be like a family when it is convenient...when there are no problems and everyone is happy and getting along like at convention. They don't like to hear that a worker cannot make it because of the abuse in the work. They say that he left because of "nerves". Really, the intimidation and guilt trip can be so bad that a worker can leave the work in physical and mental shambles and feel guilty to even accept help from the workers for fear of "being a burden to the work". It just isn't fair to try to sit back and make a reasonable assessment of the whole situation of leaving the work without adding in the very real factor that the workers send out unclear and confusing messages about what to expect from the work. You are just to trust them. They call the shots. They are the only true ministry. That is what we preached and believed. Do they really want to look like a cult? They have that reputation with my unprofessing family. Do the workers care about that? No, they do not. I agree with you, ts. It is a systemic thing, and I point out individual actions, good or bad, to show that my intent is not to "broad-brush," but to interrogate individual actions and the system that is produced.
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Post by ts on Apr 26, 2011 22:11:55 GMT -5
I am not trying to question Richard's sincerity. All I am saying is that the culture of the work is not bent towards really giving but nominal help to exiting workers. I don't know about in your part of the country, but here you often hear workers say something about not wanting to "be a burden to the work." There is a whole mentality that if you are an exiting worker or a sick worker that you are a burden to the spreading of the gospel of Jesus Christ. You have hindered His word because you require assistance. I hope that it is clear that this sort of thought is very dysfunctional. This is where the idea of the work being like a job begins to blur. The work is purported to be like a family when it is convenient...when there are no problems and everyone is happy and getting along like at convention. They don't like to hear that a worker cannot make it because of the abuse in the work. They say that he left because of "nerves". Really, the intimidation and guilt trip can be so bad that a worker can leave the work in physical and mental shambles and feel guilty to even accept help from the workers for fear of "being a burden to the work". It just isn't fair to try to sit back and make a reasonable assessment of the whole situation of leaving the work without adding in the very real factor that the workers send out unclear and confusing messages about what to expect from the work. You are just to trust them. They call the shots. They are the only true ministry. That is what we preached and believed. Do they really want to look like a cult? They have that reputation with my unprofessing family. Do the workers care about that? No, they do not. I agree with you, ts. It is a systemic thing, and I point out individual actions, good or bad, to show that my intent is not to "broad-brush," but to interrogate individual actions and the system that is produced. I do not like to broadbrush. But "systemic" is sort of a broad spectrum kind of word. Every worker in the system has bought into the game on some level or another even if they are passive. We actually hear workers speak like that from the platform when they speak of people making their choice. "If you don't do anything, you have still made your choice tonight." I was in the work 12 years and had lots and lots of friends. I don't say that I got NO help. I do say that there was not an outpouring of support. I know that I would have gotten on my feet much sooner and much better had I had a guarantee of a few months rent and utilities paid while I was in school as well as health recovery costs met. It would have been very little compared to 12 years of work or compared to a convention upgrade or a funeral. You wonder how the workers do not see the care of a brother as their responsibility.
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Post by ru on Apr 26, 2011 22:15:27 GMT -5
When I left the work a number of the F&W helped me out.
The amount of start out cash for the year I left was three hundred dollars. An overseer asked me how much I had as I left. I replied about $275.00. He said, "You'll be okay, then."
Was that his real concern?
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 26, 2011 22:29:22 GMT -5
I do not like to broadbrush. But "systemic" is sort of a broad spectrum kind of word. Every worker in the system has bought into the game on some level or another even if they are passive. We actually hear workers speak like that from the platform when they speak of people making their choice. "If you don't do anything, you have still made your choice tonight." I was in the work 12 years and had lots and lots of friends. I don't say that I got NO help. I do say that there was not an outpouring of support. I know that I would have gotten on my feet much sooner and much better had I had a guarantee of a few months rent and utilities paid while I was in school as well as health recovery costs met. It would have been very little compared to 12 years of work or compared to a convention upgrade or a funeral. You wonder how the workers do not see the care of a brother as their responsibility. I don't see "systemic" as broadbrushing at all. Systems, like physical structures, are built through specific actions. People live and work within them, doing good and/or evil things. "Broadbrushing" uses statements that imply everyone in a particular group does a particular action. I fully agree with the things you are saying, but I see no way of addressing them without interrogating particular hurtful actions, and acknowledging actions that have been helpful. To refer to Uncle D.ick again, I know that he was involved in some things that have hurt people, but, because I have personally seen him agonizing over how to handle some things, I feel that he felt trapped within a system. I'm not justifying his actions either, but simply attempting to get at the system, and why some people seem to feel trapped within it. I did too for awhile, hardly realizing what was going on - feeling these tensions, yet afraid to question those whom I saw as "the true servants of God." Again, I'm not attempting to contradict or challenge you, but I'm seeking a means of getting at the particulars of cases and issues.
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Post by ts on Apr 26, 2011 22:32:58 GMT -5
When I left the work a number of the F&W helped me out. The amount of start out cash for the year I left was three hundred dollars. An overseer asked me how much I had as I left. I replied about $275.00. He said, "You'll be okay, then." Was that his real concern? Yes, you would be ok if with that amount if you were staying in the friends' homes and eating their food and not going to school or paying for gas and getting your supplies of money regularly topped up as you went from house to house and got handshakes. Yes, that is more than sufficient to start with for a worker. However, I do wonder what the worker would have said if you had, say, $5000. My question is, why did the worker even ask? Why not just say, "Hey, I know that you are going to need money. We do appreciate your years in the work. Our needs are met here as we are going in faith. I have a few thousand dollars extra right now. You take it. If you need more, please come back and ask. I will be checking in from time to time to see how you are making it and see if I can help out any." Is there one worker leaving the work who has been met with that kind of brotherly love? Any? Would that not be a very good testimony? Do you think that would create a good atmosphere and moral in the work if that were the attitude? I do not see any way that such an attitude could hurt. If there are those who would take advantage of the system leaving the work, well, guess what. Those same people were accepted into the work and there are those in the work right now taking advantage of the system. Why not identify those who take advantage of the system and get rid of them rather than punishing honest people in need?
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Apr 26, 2011 23:41:27 GMT -5
Noel said: "We all need to repent and turn from wrong and we are glad for the provision in Christ for cleansing and forgiveness."
I am glad you mentioned this noel, because I have not heard this spoken on in meetings/gospel meetings enough. I think the message of repentance is one that no one wants to speak of, yet it is pretty much a requirement- Our Lord calls us to repent, turn away from those things (put off the old man), and put on Christ (the new man).
I have seen churches reformed, but it seems to me that many of the f&w don't believe they need reforming. We can see from the bible that God had to constantly call His people back Him- He sent prophets to warn them and frequently called them back. We even see this in the New Testament- the NT church was brand-new and already needed reforming!
Yet, just like the Israelites, we often feel like we don't want the reformation, because it means we will hear things that convict us and bring shame upon us! But godly grief produces repentance unto salvation- that sweet washing in the blood of the lamb.
(Obviously this is an issue that plagues many "Christian" groups, but I am singling the F&W out in this particular post.)
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Post by sharonw on Apr 27, 2011 6:52:16 GMT -5
Well, the sensible thing to do then is when a worker with any physical ability left should go for a year to a conv. ground or conv. grounds and build new buildings for the fellowship and thus he/she would be getting on the job training for a new job plus he/she would be taken care of by the conv. ground owners and perhaps the workers do give a bit of money so that the owners are not over drawn on their goodwill. Then the exiting worker has a "work history" for a year and he/she should get a letter of reccomendation fromt he conv. ground owners as well as the overseer of that area and maybe one or two of the other workers and friends in that area....set up for future work, sounds like to me. However, that isn't the way it works. Just because you work on convention grounds does NOT mean that you are getting construction experience or training. If you got a recommendation from convention ground owners, it would likely be a bogus recommendation. What would they say? "This guy did a lot of construction on my place and he is good at it"? Are convention ground owners qualified to say that? Are they builders? If you look on convention grounds, you will see why they are noted to contain a LOT of cobbed up jobs that the workers did. And, if a worker has given his life and health for the ministry, he might be so sincere in that commitment that he stays in the work long past being able for physical labor. So, he has given up education and given up his health for the sake of the gospel. Now, he is ready to be discarded, according to the present system in place. What about getting a recommendation from the overseer? Now, you might be getting somewhere. Are the overseers qualified to give recommendations? Are they the employer? Are they the boss? Then they are responsible for things like insurance and wages and re education. Is the work a business or isn't it? When this subject comes up, even the workers are prone to saying, "You can't complain about leaving the work with nothing. You volunteered. Besides, there are lots of people who find themselves in midlife without work or proper education." Good, responsible jobs that attract the brightest and the best do not treat their employers that way. I ask you, does the work really want to be compared to a really bad and dead end job that exploits its workers? The fact of the matter is, it is completely unnecessary for the exiting workers to be left high and dry. The workers do have money. It is simply that their priorities are not focused on helping exiting workers. Moral is low in the work, as a result. There are many workers who are there in fear. There is also fierce competition among many to gain the best positions of power so that they are not at the mercy of the whims of others. These are the realities of the work that you do not know until you have experienced it. I walked it very closely with a very close relative, I know the pitfalls and the pain that she suffered, it wasn't easy after nearly 30 yrs in the work. However the point is, don't look down your nose at ANY reccomendations...the more good reccommendations you have the better your chances of securing a job esp. these days when there are many want-to-be-hireds and fewer jobs available because of the economy. This ex-worker was picked BECAUSE of reccomendations and she had no real training but her "work record" in the work stood that she was a reliable employee! The world does NOT look at workers to be anything less then an employee of someone and yes, the overseers would rank as employers almost any where.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 27, 2011 7:01:43 GMT -5
Isn't it really a selling job? You have something that you want people to buy. Think it would transfer to selling, say, cars? Maybe that's why I had very few "converts." I don't care for sales. Al, it seems to me that Rational has a valid point and you've answered likewise...some people are not sales persons....there seems sometimes that sales persons have to hedge and often come awful close to telling lies, if not outright lies to sell their product or services. I think we've seen the lies that sold the fellowship shortly after its inception. The only true way that comes from then shores of Galilee....was a mighty profitable gimick for then workers and it sold the fellowship to a lot of people.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2011 7:35:54 GMT -5
Sorry Sharonw, but the "unbroken line of succession all the way back to Peter" has been the RC's line for about 1600 years, and the Orthodox Church's "unbroken line of succession all the way back to Andrew" for about a thousand years. We don't make any such claim to human succession - that's just a classic Strawman Argument.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2011 8:06:46 GMT -5
Sorry Sharonw, but the " unbroken line of succession all the way back to Peter" has been the RC's line for about 1600 years, and the Orthodox Church's " unbroken line of succession all the way back to Andrew" for about a thousand years. We don't make any such claim to human succession - that's just a classic Strawman Argument. Bert, who are "we?" Who is this that doesn't make claims of human succession? From what you have claimed in the past the workers don't even go all the way back to your place, so, since they make no claim in this regard you conclude they do not claim to go all the way back to the shores of Galilee either? I can attest to two things though. 1) I have never heard any worker state that they go back to Bert's place. 2) I have heard a number of workers and many friends state clearly/imply/infer/suggest etc that the F&W's system goes all the way back to the shores of Galilee in an unbroken line. In recent times this has been replaced with a "restoration" belief. Your claims would have far more credibility Bert if the workers did indeed go back to your place, then we could give you some slack in speaking for "we!" There's an auld Scots' saying, "yer bein' kerry wheekit!" which I think applies here !
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Post by pinky on Apr 27, 2011 8:40:48 GMT -5
Sorry Sharonw, but the " unbroken line of succession all the way back to Peter" has been the RC's line for about 1600 years, and the Orthodox Church's " unbroken line of succession all the way back to Andrew" for about a thousand years. We don't make any such claim to human succession - that's just a classic Strawman Argument. Bert, I was raised in your country with the "we go back to the shores of Gallilee" line. I queried this concept with my Dad in recent times, and asked if he'd heard of ol' Willie Irvine. To my surprise he had, I have no idea how long he had that piece of information, but it was conveniently kept from his offspring. To counteract the 'now we have a founder' spanner-in-the-works, he asserted the 'restoration' concept. Re-writing history to save face isn't going to cut it!
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Post by pinky on Apr 27, 2011 8:43:34 GMT -5
Has our good buddy Noels flown the coop?
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Post by quizzer on Apr 27, 2011 10:14:48 GMT -5
One thought that I would like to address on this thread - about spending $300,000 on the convention grounds, and these improvements not improving the value of the grounds:
Is there some way to make improvements to the convention grounds so that the value of the land is improved for the owners?
How do other churches handle this with their building improvements - day care centers, Bible camps, church buildings, etc.?
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