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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 5, 2011 14:49:22 GMT -5
Or perhaps its time for the peons to rise up against the dictators?
I read somewhere that all the dictatorships in history that have fallen did so by the peons refusing to go along with the Dictator any longer.
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Post by emy on Feb 5, 2011 22:33:39 GMT -5
The picture that's being formed in my mind is that the world has been divided up into 'fields', each with an overseer who is responsible for the goings on in his 'field'. Communication and interaction between overseers is limited and marginal and authority over overseers doesn't exist. Once an overseer becomes established in a 'field' it is rare that he is ever moved to another field. Hence, he feels that he owns that 'field' and can do with it as he likes. Problems within the 'field' were quite easily contained within the 'field' for many years because 'field' to 'field' movement of professing folks was quite rare. Written communication was slow and cumbersome and telephone communication long-distance extremely expensive. For that reason overseer abuse and overseer miss-governance could also be quite easily contained. Some on this thread have referred to these 'fields' as 'fiefdoms'. Others have agreed that this might be an accurate description. What I am thinking is that history is actually repeating itself. Are we not in a similar situation to that of the time of the 'Judges'? Is it about time for the professing people to start asking for a 'King'? Well, I won't be among those asking for a king. It was directly against God's will for them to have a king. In our part of the world, overseers have been changing often for a couple decades now.
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Post by alexander on Feb 5, 2011 22:38:45 GMT -5
The picture that's being formed in my mind is that the world has been divided up into 'fields', each with an overseer who is responsible for the goings on in his 'field'. Communication and interaction between overseers is limited and marginal and authority over overseers doesn't exist. Once an overseer becomes established in a 'field' it is rare that he is ever moved to another field. Hence, he feels that he owns that 'field' and can do with it as he likes. Problems within the 'field' were quite easily contained within the 'field' for many years because 'field' to 'field' movement of professing folks was quite rare. Written communication was slow and cumbersome and telephone communication long-distance extremely expensive. For that reason overseer abuse and overseer miss-governance could also be quite easily contained. Some on this thread have referred to these 'fields' as 'fiefdoms'. Others have agreed that this might be an accurate description. What I am thinking is that history is actually repeating itself. Are we not in a similar situation to that of the time of the 'Judges'? Is it about time for the professing people to start asking for a 'King'? Well, I won't be among those asking for a king. It was directly against God's will for them to have a king. In our part of the world, overseers have been changing often for a couple decades now. I'm also against a king. I am for the workers to either follow the New Testament instructions of the apostles as preached by the workers, or quit preaching that they are poor and penniless.
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Post by emy on Feb 5, 2011 22:39:01 GMT -5
Yes, it is time....the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the Prince of peace! Yes, Sharon, this is a Biblical prayer. Rev. 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
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Post by alexander on Feb 5, 2011 22:40:35 GMT -5
Yes, it is time....the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the Prince of peace! Yes, Sharon, this is a Biblical prayer. Rev. 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. He also said, "Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, will he find faith on the earth?" This was in regards to the parable of the unjust judge.
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Post by sharonw on Feb 6, 2011 10:44:00 GMT -5
Yes, it is time....the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the Prince of peace! Yes, Sharon, this is a Biblical prayer. Rev. 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Even though I know I'm unworthy, I declare "even so, come, Lord Jesus!" The king of kings, and lord of lords! I know when He comes there will be no divisions of Christianity, they'll all be removed due to lack of interest....people will be looking to the new Jerusalem where the King awaits with His saints.
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shushy
Royal Member
Warning
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Post by shushy on Feb 6, 2011 11:33:14 GMT -5
Alexander
I am for the workers to either follow the New Testament instructions of the apostles as preached by the workers, or quit preaching that they are poor and penniless.
How do you percieve and understand those instructions? Completely or partially?
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Post by ts on Feb 6, 2011 11:44:22 GMT -5
Alexander I am for the workers to either follow the New Testament instructions of the apostles as preached by the workers, or quit preaching that they are poor and penniless. How do you percieve and understand those instructions? Completely or partially?
I am sure there is a reasonable line that can be drawn somewhere between $1 in your pocket and $1 million in the bank. If you asked which man was living in faith as the disciples did, I think that everyone would favor the fellow with $1 in his pocket.
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Post by alexander on Feb 6, 2011 12:20:59 GMT -5
Alexander I am for the workers to either follow the New Testament instructions of the apostles as preached by the workers, or quit preaching that they are poor and penniless. How do you percieve and understand those instructions? Completely or partially?
The workers have always partially followed Jesus's instructions as written by Matthew in Matthew 10. It is interesting to note that it isn't mentioned in Matthew 10 that Jesus sent the apostles out two by two. Matthew evidently didn't think that it was worth noting. But here is how Jesus instructed the apostles in Matthew 10 (Note, Jesus later amended this instructions after His ressurrection.) I'll strike out everything that we didn't keep of these instructions while I was in the work. 1) Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.2) And as ye go , preach , saying , The kingdom of heaven is at hand . 3) Heal the sick , cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received , freely give . 4) Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. 5) And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter , enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence .6) And when ye come into an house, salute it. And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. For some reason, the workers preach more about the Lord sending them out 2x2 (again, something that Matthew himself didn't think to write down) AND the penniless and itenerate nature of their mission. And of course, the celibacy (which was not a requirement of Christ for the 12.) We know that the workers aren't penniless. It has been well documented that the overseers are in control (and request) vasts sums of money. So we can strike celibacy and being penniless from the list of requirements that they keep Matthew 10. Do they cast out devils? Heal the sick? Cleanse lepers? Raise the dead? Do they freely give? Yes, some of them do- freely give, that is. And I am thankful for the times that I have seen the workers and elders step up and quietly help someone that is in need. Robert Eberhardt, the overseer of Arkansas and Irving Ross of Ohio should especially be noted for this kind of love in their service. I have been a witness to a few of their charitable contributions of their time, love, and money (along with some great elders) to meet a natural need in the lives of the friends. Going forth 2x2 is mentioned in Mark 6:7. Luke 10, mentions Jesus sending the 70 out "2 and 2". With the same instructions to not carry scrip, nor shoes, and salute no man by the way. Again, I have no problems, at all, with the setup of the fellowship. I just think that it behooves the fellowship to be honest that there are a lot of differences between the apostles and the workers. Not carrying money is not important, so why preach it- especially when they do carry it. Especially when the workers are collecting the estates from any of the dying friends and other inheritance monies as those friends feel moved to give. So, why carry on the charade? Why continue to preach from John 10 as if the workers aren't hirelings because they collect money. Is money in a handshake or an envelope any different then the money in a collection plate? Is $500,000, for example, in an overseer's bank account any different then $500,000 in the "wordly" preachers bank account. (Only a small minority of "worldly preachers" would have that in their bank account. Most make barely over the poverty line, if that. The greeter at the Cracker Barrell restaurant that I visited yesterday was also a preacher of a small church- I heard him tell someone that he had to work there to help make ends meet. The small Baptist church that my grandmother attended had a preacher and his wife that would ask for canned food. The collection plate there usually only had a few dollars. My grandparents gave me .50 to put into the golden, red velvet lined collection plate as it passed by.) Meanwhile the workers are getting fed well on roasts, and all other manner of sumptuous meals- they usually get the friends very best- I know that they do when they visit me- and as well they should. This is a token of the love that the friends have for the workers- and it is a great thing. The workman is worthy indeed of his meat. And if the friends want to give the workers their estates, more power to them. But lets not pretend that we aren't like most other denominations in regards to money. I think that a hireling isn't necessarily one that takes money. I think that a hireling is one that works only for the money and not out of a love for the sheep. A hireling could also be one that seeks to hide it and is fearful of the sheep discovering that the extent of the money and then mercilessly throwing the sheep out of the pasture, supposedly to the wolves, because they asked about the money. This happened in Alberta. And that is an example of hirelings in the work. The importance of keeping the money hid was more important then the sheep.. I do believe that those that are called to go into the work are moved because of God's voice calling them, and not because of the lifestyle.
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Post by emy on Feb 6, 2011 15:40:27 GMT -5
The workers have always partially followed Jesus's instructions as written by Matthew in Matthew 10. It is interesting to note that it isn't mentioned in Matthew 10 that Jesus sent the apostles out two by two. Matthew evidently didn't think that it was worth noting. But here is how Jesus instructed the apostles in Matthew 10 (Note, Jesus later amended this instructions after His ressurrection.) I'll strike out everything that we didn't keep of these instructions while I was in the work. 1) Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.2) And as ye go , preach , saying , The kingdom of heaven is at hand . 3) Heal the sick , cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received , freely give . 4) Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. 5) And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter , enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence .6) And when ye come into an house, salute it. And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. For some reason, the workers preach more about the Lord sending them out 2x2 (again, something that Matthew himself didn't think to write down) AND the penniless and itenerate nature of their mission. And of course, the celibacy (which was not a requirement of Christ for the 12.) We know that the workers aren't penniless. It has been well documented that the overseers are in control (and request) vasts sums of money. So we can strike celibacy and being penniless from the list of requirements that they keep Matthew 10. Do they cast out devils? Heal the sick? Cleanse lepers? Raise the dead? Do they freely give? Yes, some of them do- freely give, that is. And I am thankful for the times that I have seen the workers and elders step up and quietly help someone that is in need. Robert Eberhardt, the overseer of Arkansas and Irving Ross of Ohio should especially be noted for this kind of love in their service. I have been a witness to a few of their charitable contributions of their time, love, and money (along with some great elders) to meet a natural need in the lives of the friends. Going forth 2x2 is mentioned in Mark 6:7. Luke 10, mentions Jesus sending the 70 out "2 and 2". With the same instructions to not carry scrip, nor shoes, and salute no man by the way. Again, I have no problems, at all, with the setup of the fellowship. I just think that it behooves the fellowship to be honest that there are a lot of differences between the apostles and the workers. Not carrying money is not important, so why preach it- especially when they do carry it. Especially when the workers are collecting the estates from any of the dying friends and other inheritance monies as those friends feel moved to give. So, why carry on the charade? Why continue to preach from John 10 as if the workers aren't hirelings because they collect money. Is money in a handshake or an envelope any different then the money in a collection plate? Is $500,000, for example, in an overseer's bank account any different then $500,000 in the "wordly" preachers bank account. (Only a small minority of "worldly preachers" would have that in their bank account. Most make barely over the poverty line, if that. The greeter at the Cracker Barrell restaurant that I visited yesterday was also a preacher of a small church- I heard him tell someone that he had to work there to help make ends meet. The small Baptist church that my grandmother attended had a preacher and his wife that would ask for canned food. The collection plate there usually only had a few dollars. My grandparents gave me .50 to put into the golden, red velvet lined collection plate as it passed by.) Meanwhile the workers are getting fed well on roasts, and all other manner of sumptuous meals- they usually get the friends very best- I know that they do when they visit me- and as well they should. This is a token of the love that the friends have for the workers- and it is a great thing. The workman is worthy indeed of his meat. And if the friends want to give the workers their estates, more power to them. But lets not pretend that we aren't like most other denominations in regards to money. I think that a hireling isn't necessarily one that takes money. I think that a hireling is one that works only for the money and not out of a love for the sheep. A hireling could also be one that seeks to hide it and is fearful of the sheep discovering that the extent of the money and then mercilessly throwing the sheep out of the pasture, supposedly to the wolves, because they asked about the money. This happened in Alberta. And that is an example of hirelings in the work. The importance of keeping the money hid was more important then the sheep.. I do believe that those that are called to go into the work are moved because of God's voice calling them, and not because of the lifestyle. I've mentioned this recently, but take note of how Matthew writes the list of the first 12 being sent. Either Matthew or someone who translated his writing must have grasped that they went in pairs. I don't know what to do about workers being given the best and even money in abundance. It doesn't seem to be a problem in most other churches. Some even make requests, almost begging for some. Anyway, some here on the board have indicated that when they give to the workers, their interest in where it goes and what it is used for ends. There may be huge bank accounts somewhere, but who knows whether there will someday be a huge need - and then the funds for it will be available without request. Meanwhile, some of it goes to creature comforts that our spoiled society seems to want and appreciate for the most part. I'm sure you know it's quite different in other parts of the world where friends and contacts aren't so well off. Not all workers feast on roasts and such daily. And by the way, workers at my house usually get just what we would normally eat and that includes soup, or just a salad, and maybe even leftovers (*gasp)!
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Post by ts on Feb 6, 2011 16:23:52 GMT -5
Emy, you sound like the type of home I liked to go to when in the work. I hated being a "worker" and treated like an alien. I really got tired of eating huge meals of people's best. So many people made such a big deal of the meal and some of the women in a town were even in competition with each other on special meeting rounds.
When I was given money by the friends, some would make a point and say "This is for YOU to use for what you need." I think some of the friends realize what sort of pressure that the workers are under to make sure they use the money properly. Irving Ross just told me on the phone that he had not called me last month(when I put in a call for him) because he had run out of air time and he needed to be careful with the friends money. The money the friends give is to be used for the kingdom. I appreciate responsible use of the money.
However, it makes no difference if a worker watches his cell phone bill but lets a fellow overseer stay in the work after wasting money flying across country for two years to have a little slap and tickle with one of his mistresses. Those pennies that these guys save by watching cell phone bills are nothing in the collateral damage done by ruining the lives of women. The expense that they cause these women in depression and therapy....Strain at gnats and swallow camels.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 6, 2011 18:24:29 GMT -5
I can only imagine how difficult it would be for a younger worker to approach a senior with a problem of abuse particularly if the senior worker was close friends with the abuser. You hit it exactly! I can think of a companion who is only 27 days younger than I, and I was listed as the "responsible" worker. Though I don't know of anything illegal being done, some of his actions around young women and children made me extremely nervous! But he is a very popular worker, and I was also well aware that to say anything would only bring disapproval on myself. Also, I struggled so much with my own thoughts, and felt so guilty, that it was difficulty to see anyone else as having the same struggle - I thought something was wrong with me, that I wasn't spiritual enough or something.
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Post by alexander on Feb 6, 2011 20:02:25 GMT -5
I've mentioned this recently, but take note of how Matthew writes the list of the first 12 being sent. Either Matthew or someone who translated his writing must have grasped that they went in pairs. I don't know what to do about workers being given the best and even money in abundance. It doesn't seem to be a problem in most other churches. Some even make requests, almost begging for some. Anyway, some here on the board have indicated that when they give to the workers, their interest in where it goes and what it is used for ends. There may be huge bank accounts somewhere, but who knows whether there will someday be a huge need - and then the funds for it will be available without request. Meanwhile, some of it goes to creature comforts that our spoiled society seems to want and appreciate for the most part. I'm sure you know it's quite different in other parts of the world where friends and contacts aren't so well off. Not all workers feast on roasts and such daily. And by the way, workers at my house usually get just what we would normally eat and that includes soup, or just a salad, and maybe even leftovers (*gasp)! Hi Emy, I evidently wasn't very clear in my post. I'm not a fan of the workers preaching that we use Matthew 10 as our model. Only a very few instructions by Jesus are kept by the workers. The only real difference between the workers and other preachers is the going out in pairs. Nothing else in outward form is any different. The celibacy wasn't a requirement. The workers take money. And in some case, lots of money. So, they don't have the moral high road to preach against it. Money from a collection plate is no different then money in a hand shake. Instead of focusing on these things, how about we the friends and the workers focus on preaching about love, about Jesus, and for a large part, that is the case. Jesus is the all in all. But if He truly were the all in all, we wouldn't have the devilish doctrine (in my opinion) of the workers being the only true ministers or apostles. The love the friends have for the workers that they will give them of their very best, and the love that the workers have for the friends that they will do their very best in love for the sheep is a great testament for the fellowship, if that love is founded in Christ. And for the most part I believe that it is. But it is high time that we learn to be honest IN ALL THINGS. The Alberta case showed plainly that the spirit of a hireling had entered into the ministry. When the choice was between facing questions about the friends knowledge of vast stores of money held by the workers vs the friends themselves that questioned them about it (and rightfully so, since the workers preach that they are poor and penniless), the workers CHOSE the money! They chose the money as being more important then what, 18 meetings? And 1 worker! All I am saying is that the friends may not have even questioned the workers IF the workers didn't preach that they are just poor, penniless preachers going out like Matthew 10. The workers CAN'T have it BOTH WAYS. A double-minded man is unstable in all its ways, and so is a double-minded system.
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meg1
Junior Member
Posts: 146
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Post by meg1 on Feb 6, 2011 20:05:52 GMT -5
Great idea! Focus on love!
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Post by kiwi on Feb 12, 2011 2:59:32 GMT -5
Communication and interaction between overseers is limited and marginal and authority over overseers doesn't exist. Interestingly overseers can communicate well enough to co-ordinate all the comings and goings of workers around the world. They can communicate enough to forbid an ex-worker in New Zealand from having fellowship because he fell out with overseers in the USA. They can communicate enough to sanction a couple in Australia because of their status in Canada. They only have communication difficulties when it comes to immorality amongst their closest friends. If you are talking about steve? he is having fellowship in this country.
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