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Post by ts on Feb 1, 2011 21:01:48 GMT -5
Same goes with IH. He was not convicted of anything. He was doing a good enough job to be made overseer. Obviously the majority liked him there. Ray Hoffman said that the bad that he had done did not diminish the good. Why isn't IH still overseer? He did nothing illegal as far as our legal system is concerned. I have wondered that. Christianity is about love, mercy, and forgiveness, among other things. If IH repented of all and spoke to all, why not continue in the work? Maybe he did not speak to and of all involved and just wanted out of the public eye as much as possible. Whatever, I guess. Did the overseers who were informed of IH and did nothing face any consequences? No. They got all the glory for "handling" it so "wisely". Then they turned around and told JA, the victim, that it would make her elderly daddy happy if she would come back to meeting. How kind and compassionate, eh? When I read that, I wondered why the workers did not go and take counsel from JA's Baptist preacher and congregation who had helped her so much. Perhaps the workers could learn something from them about compassion and how to actually help victims of abuse.
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Post by emy on Feb 1, 2011 21:52:10 GMT -5
actuallt, rational, according to the bible, the pastor who was having an affair was NOT sinning against anyone more then he was sinning against himself! That scriptural! Which scripture were you referring to? I think it may be this one: 1 Cor 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.
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Post by rational on Feb 2, 2011 3:09:41 GMT -5
Let's try to put the emotions aside and look at the facts. 1) Nothing has been said about adultery. 2) For 11+ years the pastor has been leading the people and, as far as we know, no one has been led astray. 3) Seriously. No one had complained. How can you say he was not doing his job? Same goes with IH. He was not convicted of anything. He was doing a good enough job to be made overseer. Obviously the majority liked him there. Ray Hoffman said that the bad that he had done did not diminish the good. Why isn't IH still overseer? He did nothing illegal as far as our legal system is concerned. CSA is illegal. The statute of limitation ran out.
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Post by rational on Feb 2, 2011 3:12:31 GMT -5
No. They got all the glory for "handling" it so "wisely". Then they turned around and told JA, the victim, that it would make her elderly daddy happy if she would come back to meeting. How kind and compassionate, eh? When I read that, I wondered why the workers did not go and take counsel from JA's Baptist preacher and congregation who had helped her so much. Perhaps the workers could learn something from them about compassion and how to actually help victims of abuse. Of course this was the same daddy that observed the molestation and blamed his daughter. IH was guilty of his crimes but the father was guilty of much more.
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Post by alexander on Feb 2, 2011 7:38:27 GMT -5
No. They got all the glory for "handling" it so "wisely". Then they turned around and told JA, the victim, that it would make her elderly daddy happy if she would come back to meeting. How kind and compassionate, eh? When I read that, I wondered why the workers did not go and take counsel from JA's Baptist preacher and congregation who had helped her so much. Perhaps the workers could learn something from them about compassion and how to actually help victims of abuse. Of course this was the same daddy that observed the molestation and blamed his daughter. IH was guilty of his crimes but the father was guilty of much more. Not so fast. Was Elisabeth Smart "guilty" for not telling the police who she was when they asked her, "Are you Elizabeth Smart?" The police had to ask her 3 times, I believe, before she finally answered, "Thou sayest." I agree with you, logically and "rightfully", however, logic flies out the window when brain washing, religion, and the super natural are involved. If sex is involved and it is a worker, then it is immorally and possibly legally wrong (due to sexual harrassment issues - position of authority, etc.) It is time to for the workers to really encourage the friends to confront the workers anytime, anywhere, and even in anger when abuse of any kind is suspected. (Contrast that with the overseer that said that he would meet with folks with a concern when the time was right and their spirit was right. Who gets to decide when the time and spirit is right, yep, the overseer. 100% controlling BS. Time to kick that attitude to the curb.)
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Post by ts on Feb 2, 2011 10:32:21 GMT -5
Same goes with IH. He was not convicted of anything. He was doing a good enough job to be made overseer. Obviously the majority liked him there. Ray Hoffman said that the bad that he had done did not diminish the good. Why isn't IH still overseer? He did nothing illegal as far as our legal system is concerned. CSA is illegal. The statute of limitation ran out. Exactly my point. The statute of limitations does not run out with God when it comes to hidden sin. The workers are following the man made legal system just like a good, logical atheist. They do not have the fear of God in them. That is just my point.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Feb 2, 2011 10:37:29 GMT -5
Do you have any hidden sin you'd like to talk about ts?
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Post by rational on Feb 2, 2011 10:42:16 GMT -5
Not so fast. Was Elisabeth Smart "guilty" for not telling the police who she was when they asked her, "Are you Elizabeth Smart?" The police had to ask her 3 times, I believe, before she finally answered, "Thou sayest." She was, I believe, the victim. Of what would she be guilty? The supernatural are not involved. Brainwashing is a nice knee-jerk term but really is not what is going on. If it is a criminal sexual offense the person involved is simply a criminal and there are people already in place to deal with them. I agree 100%. It has always worked well for me. Some people have been enabling the workers to continue this behavior and only when they get caught behind the proverbial 8-ball do they realize they have surrendered their rights. No one can control a person without their consent. On the other hand there are people who are willing to give others the right to do their thinking for them. I am not sure that will ever change. It is not just the F&W but many religions and organizations.
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Post by kencoolidge on Feb 2, 2011 10:48:17 GMT -5
Do you have any hidden sin you'd like to talk about ts? Lin We could talk about being judgemental and all have a say including me. How about you Linford? ken
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Post by alexander on Feb 2, 2011 10:56:43 GMT -5
Do you have any hidden sin you'd like to talk about ts? He has a beard and he doesn't think that the workers are the only way by which a man can be saved. The overseer expressed his disapproval of TS's beard and also told him that he needed to come back to gospel meetings and reprofess. And not accept help from any of the friends. And he also wanted to know why TS was on the convention grounds- even though Barry Barkley is quoted in the newspaper as telling the reporter that the grounds are open to the general public. This is the same overseer that told me that "some" thought that my kids look neglected. So, TS could confess those sins. Start confessing TS. TS also doesn't have a TV- doesn't want one. He keeps the sabbath religiously because he feels that it is right to do and is a help spiritually to him and his family. As far as I can see, TS is getting on the friends nerves here because he is actually doing what the friends keep saying to do, confront the workers when they are wrong. He is confronting them. And they don't like it. And the friends don't like it that it is taking a former worker like TS or Scott Ross to confront the dishonesty and abuse of authority among the overseers. I applaud TS. Count me in with a growing number of professing folk and former workers that can see that TS is doing a good work. He is spending considerable time and energy into gathering the facts of the many cases that are out there. And almost all of the cases involve overseers! Do we really want to allow corruption in the ministry? Really? So what if TS shakes the tree? If there is nothing to hide, there is nothing to hide. TS would be the first to tell you that he wishes that he could be doing something else, but he feels moved by God to confront the corruption that first affecting him and his family. If the workers had simply been honest with TS up front, he wouldn't be here today. I fully believe that God is using TS to expose the corruption in the ministry. It would be a shame if when we, the professing and the workers, see that corruption, to just let it stay there because it is just less painful to leave it and to hide it. Meanwhile, we will have wasted a good x-ray that TS is providing, and the cancer will spread.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Feb 2, 2011 11:05:17 GMT -5
Do you have any hidden sin you'd like to talk about ts? Lin We could talk about being judgemental and all have a say including me. How about you Linford? ken You've said it all my friend!
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Post by kencoolidge on Feb 2, 2011 11:15:55 GMT -5
So when a worker starts talking with one of the wives of one of the friends alone, about extremely sexual desires and sexually leading questions. . . it does show what that senior worker had been thinking about. He didn't just learn those terms and sexual concepts from reading his bible. And I feel pity for that worker. Before long he will be a pariah with other workers and friends. And he simply just needs help, care, and understanding- and he needs to be honest with himself and others. Some people have an education and the terms and sexual concepts are taught. On the other have, if the worker is abusing/molesting women the place to bring the complaint is not to the workers but to the authorities.
If the workers and overseers are not willing to clean up their act, and they form the framework of your belief, maybe it is time to examine your beliefs.
If you went to a restaurant and the wait person was groping you every time they brought food you would complain to the management. If they did not correct the situation you would eat elsewhere.
These workers are just people. Why do people have such a problem standing up to them when they believe they are right and that the workers are in the wrong? Rational Great anology Rat. Some resturants have roach infestations that make eating there risky in addition to the groping problem. You have offered some new insight to a very old problem. Talk with your feet Thanks ken
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Post by sharonw on Feb 2, 2011 11:27:45 GMT -5
Some people have an education and the terms and sexual concepts are taught. On the other have, if the worker is abusing/molesting women the place to bring the complaint is not to the workers but to the authorities.
If the workers and overseers are not willing to clean up their act, and they form the framework of your belief, maybe it is time to examine your beliefs.
If you went to a restaurant and the wait person was groping you every time they brought food you would complain to the management. If they did not correct the situation you would eat elsewhere.
These workers are just people. Why do people have such a problem standing up to them when they believe they are right and that the workers are in the wrong? Rational Great anology Rat. Some resturants have roach infestations that make eating there risky in addition to the groping problem. You have offered some new insight to a very old problem. Talk with your feet Thanks ken Many of us have, but then we still have loved ones bound tight with all that isn't right and unable to see the forest for the trees! So like TS, we feel obligated for each soul's sake to "warn" and open up the real truth about the truth's fellowship. I cringe inside of me, when I think about those that I've loved having passed on and still in the fellowship....what they did not see or know....but as someone stated yesterday or the day before...God judges us against what we know and what we do with what we know.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 2, 2011 11:30:49 GMT -5
Exactly my point. The statute of limitations does not run out with God when it comes to hidden sin. The workers are following the man made legal system just like a good, logical atheist. They do not have the fear of God in them. That is just my point. There is no sin that can be hidden from God. There is also no statute of limitations concerning forgiveness of those sins known only to us and God. Through confession and repentance to God, our sins are washed away. Scott
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Post by sharonw on Feb 2, 2011 11:35:28 GMT -5
Exactly my point. The statute of limitations does not run out with God when it comes to hidden sin. The workers are following the man made legal system just like a good, logical atheist. They do not have the fear of God in them. That is just my point. There is no sin that can be hidden from God. There is also no statute of limitations concerning forgiveness of those sins known only to us and God. Through confession and repentance to God, our sins are washed away. Scott Very true, Scott! I wonder why people who are into things they know really aren't right, will not get around to repenting until they're caught with their hands in the cookie jar? Strange that is about mankind, eh?
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Post by rational on Feb 2, 2011 12:09:37 GMT -5
Do you have any hidden sin you'd like to talk about ts? He has a beard and he doesn't think that the workers are the only way by which a man can be saved. The overseer expressed his disapproval of TS's beard and also told him that he needed to come back to gospel meetings and reprofess. And not accept help from any of the friends. And he also wanted to know why TS was on the convention grounds- even though Barry Barkley is quoted in the newspaper as telling the reporter that the grounds are open to the general public. This is the same overseer that told me that "some" thought that my kids look neglected. So, TS could confess those sins. Start confessing TS. This is one side of the story but I think there are some details that have not been as well publicized. Gathering facts? TS himself acknowledges that there are no facts, just his hunch. That in itself should raise questions. If the problems are as widespread as claimed wouldn't there be more workers involved than overseers? An unfair question. No one wants corruption. If he feels strongly that the workers and their system are wrong and does not believe in what they are doing how can any of this affect his family? He can certainly walk away and join a different church or start one of his own. Too bad god didn't provide more facts. The X-ray being provided ia like looking at the human population and saying - "Look - people have cancer." I believe corruption should be rooted out but the people who have been wronged are the ones that need to bring the charges. TS seems to have a single case for which he has direct knowledge and he is not the victim.
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Post by rational on Feb 2, 2011 12:15:42 GMT -5
Many of us have, but then we still have loved ones bound tight with all that isn't right and unable to see the forest for the trees! You have your beliefs they have theirs. Why does it bother you? I have a number of relatives who continue to profess. They believe what they do and I believe what I do. It is a matter of belief. And if they were happy with their beliefs why try to change them. I an guessing that is one of the reasons some people in the F&W and some people who have left the F&W have trouble when they are in social settings. Each is trying to change the beliefs of the other and pointing out the error of their ways. No point in arguing beliefs.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Feb 2, 2011 12:24:45 GMT -5
So if ts and his crusade cleans up all the sin and filth that he talks about.What has he done? First of all he doesn't believe in this way. Is he going to come back as a hero? I'm sure he has sympathizers. Everyone does. What is his motivation and purpose. There is nothing wrong with exposing wrongs,but for goodness sake have a sane alternative. He talks of the gospel. The word gospel means glad news or glad tidings. Where is either in his message? JMT
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Post by kencoolidge on Feb 2, 2011 13:01:45 GMT -5
So if ts and his crusade cleans up all the sin and filth that he talks about.What has he done? First of all he doesn't believe in this way. Is he going to come back as a hero? I'm sure he has sympathizers. Everyone does. What is his motivation and purpose. There is nothing wrong with exposing wrongs,but for goodness sake have a sane alternative. He talks of the gospel. The word gospel means glad news or glad tidings. Where is either in his message? JMT Lin Read the words you have written about TS. You have really condemned him who like you gave of his best to the master when he was able. I believe TS has a love for the sheep and want the wolves removed from the flock. The alternative is righteousness which is what he is proclaiming. He is speaking the Gospel and all that is included. Some words make folks uneasy like fornication, deceiver, false prophets. Perhaps a nerve that has previously gone dead is being reactivated. You and Rat seem to be trying to harmonize but without a pitch pipe. Perhaps Bert will add his voice to the mix and oh what harmony you might make ken
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Post by alexander on Feb 2, 2011 13:18:19 GMT -5
This is one side of the story but I think there are some details that have not been as well publicized. What details are those that haven't been well publicized? He went to convention. The overseer was suspicious of him being there because he knew that TS had been calling around to the other overseers asking about the worker that had caused him and his family harm. I have spoken with some of the friends that attended the convention- they said that they were all suspicious of why he was there. My question to that friend, was why? He hadn't had contact with TS in over 10 years. When last they spoke they were great friends. So what changed his high opinion of TS to a low opinion- and even being suspicious of his motives? Gossip. My friend agreed that that was true. So what "facts" do you know about TS's visit to that convention? If the "facts" are coming from the overseer, I am sure TS would love to learn more about what the overseer thought his motives were. I will tell you this, Rational. A miracle (or an improbable coincidence) happened to TS that validated his going to that convention while he was there. And William Lewis used to say that such as what happened to TS wasn't a coincidence, but evidence of God being in control.
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Post by alexander on Feb 2, 2011 13:33:29 GMT -5
So if ts and his crusade cleans up all the sin and filth that he talks about.What has he done? First of all he doesn't believe in this way. Is he going to come back as a hero? I'm sure he has sympathizers. Everyone does. What is his motivation and purpose. There is nothing wrong with exposing wrongs,but for goodness sake have a sane alternative. He talks of the gospel. The word gospel means glad news or glad tidings. Where is either in his message? JMT Linford, if it were you, and not TS that was feeling called to do what he is doing and was providing evidence of corruption and deceit (as he has provided to me), one would be a fool not to support one such as yourself. Again, I am not on a crusade against sexual immorality in the work. I am against the deceit, the abuse of authority, the cover ups, and the arrogance of a few overseers. They have the potential to cause GREAT embarrassment to this fellowship- far greater then TSs little campaign against corruption within the ranks of overseers. Let me ask you a question, Linford. If an elder, such as yourself, learned of a male worker having consensual sex with a few of the lady friends that you meet with at convention, would you confront the worker about it? And if you did, what would you say if they disbanded your meeting? Would that be OK for the worker to do as retaliation? Would that be what you deserved? Now, what if you were to learn that that happened recently as a result of TSs investigation and fact gathering. Would that be an appropriate response- sort of like Alberta all over again?
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Feb 2, 2011 13:39:17 GMT -5
So if ts and his crusade cleans up all the sin and filth that he talks about.What has he done? First of all he doesn't believe in this way. Is he going to come back as a hero? I'm sure he has sympathizers. Everyone does. What is his motivation and purpose. There is nothing wrong with exposing wrongs,but for goodness sake have a sane alternative. He talks of the gospel. The word gospel means glad news or glad tidings. Where is either in his message? JMT Lin Read the words you have written about TS. You have really condemned him who like you gave of his best to the master when he was able. I believe TS has a love for the sheep and want the wolves removed from the flock. The alternative is righteousness which is what he is proclaiming. He is speaking the Gospel and all that is included. Some words make folks uneasy like fornication, deceiver, false prophets. Perhaps a nerve that has previously gone dead is being reactivated. You and Rat seem to be trying to harmonize but without a pitch pipe. Perhaps Bert will add his voice to the mix and oh what harmony you might make ken Ken: I know full when how to harmonize here. If I would vehemently pour out criticism of the workers and their faults, I probably could be lead singer. You refer to the wolves being removed from the flock. A flock of sheep naturally is a target for wolves. It is the job of the shepherd to protect the flock. He doesn't use other sheep to destroy the wolves. JMHO
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Post by rational on Feb 2, 2011 13:41:03 GMT -5
This is one side of the story but I think there are some details that have not been as well publicized. The overseer was suspicious of him being there because he knew that TS had been calling around to the other overseers asking about the worker that had caused him and his family harm. I have spoken with some of the friends that attended the convention- they said that they were all suspicious of why he was there. These would be a good starting place to find out more details.Another lead for you to follow. And that miracle was? Perhaps we have a different definition of miracle.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 2, 2011 13:45:42 GMT -5
As far as I can see, TS is getting on the friends nerves here because he is actually doing what the friends keep saying to do, confront the workers when they are wrong. He is confronting them. And they don't like it. And the friends don't like it that it is taking a former worker like TS or Scott Ross to confront the dishonesty and abuse of authority among the overseers. I applaud TS. Count me in with a growing number of professing folk and former workers that can see that TS is doing a good work. He is spending considerable time and energy into gathering the facts of the many cases that are out there. And almost all of the cases involve overseers! Do we really want to allow corruption in the ministry? Really? So what if TS shakes the tree? If there is nothing to hide, there is nothing to hide. TS would be the first to tell you that he wishes that he could be doing something else, but he feels moved by God to confront the corruption that first affecting him and his family. If the workers had simply been honest with TS up front, he wouldn't be here today. I fully believe that God is using TS to expose the corruption in the ministry. It would be a shame if when we, the professing and the workers, see that corruption, to just let it stay there because it is just less painful to leave it and to hide it. Meanwhile, we will have wasted a good x-ray that TS is providing, and the cancer will spread. Count me in too!
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Post by alexander on Feb 2, 2011 13:48:50 GMT -5
Lin Read the words you have written about TS. You have really condemned him who like you gave of his best to the master when he was able. I believe TS has a love for the sheep and want the wolves removed from the flock. The alternative is righteousness which is what he is proclaiming. He is speaking the Gospel and all that is included. Some words make folks uneasy like fornication, deceiver, false prophets. Perhaps a nerve that has previously gone dead is being reactivated. You and Rat seem to be trying to harmonize but without a pitch pipe. Perhaps Bert will add his voice to the mix and oh what harmony you might make ken Ken: I know full when how to harmonize here. If I would vehemently pour out criticism of the workers and their faults, I probably could be lead singer. You refer to the wolves being removed from the flock. A flock of sheep naturally is a target for wolves. It is the job of the shepherd to protect the flock. He doesn't use other sheep to destroy the wolves. JMHO TS is a shepherd, in my opinion, and God is using him because certain overseers are refusing to do their jobs as shepherds. It's that simple to me. TS filling the place that he is in reminds me of a quote from Desmond Tutu: "I am a leader by default, only because nature does not allow a vacuum."
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Feb 2, 2011 13:49:26 GMT -5
So if ts and his crusade cleans up all the sin and filth that he talks about.What has he done? First of all he doesn't believe in this way. Is he going to come back as a hero? I'm sure he has sympathizers. Everyone does. What is his motivation and purpose. There is nothing wrong with exposing wrongs,but for goodness sake have a sane alternative. He talks of the gospel. The word gospel means glad news or glad tidings. Where is either in his message? JMT Linford, if it were you, and not TS that was feeling called to do what he is doing and was providing evidence of corruption and deceit (as he has provided to me), one would be a fool not to support one such as yourself. Again, I am not on a crusage against sexual immorality in the work. I am against the deceit, the abuse of authority, the cover ups, and the arrogance of a few overseers. They have the potential to cause GREAT embarrassment to this fellowship- far greater then TSs little campaign against corruption within the ranks of overseers. Let me ask you a question, Linford. If an elder, such as yourself, learned of a male worker having consensual sex with a few of the lady friends that you meet with at convention, would you confront the worker about it? And if you did, what would you say if they disbanded your meeting? Would that be OK for the worker to do as retaliation? Would that be what you deserved? Now, what if you were to learn that that happened recently as a result of TSs investigation and fact gathering. Would that be an appropriate response- sort of like Alberta all over again? Alexander: I've been there and feel no need to tell the circumstances. I've gone through losing a meeting and taking away my being an elder. It was wrong, I didn't agree with it but I took it and didn't fight back. I had every reason to be bitter. Today we have meeting in our home and I have the humble place of leading the meeting. When Jesus was on the cross the last thing he mentioned was his spirit. He commended it to God. Just think of those people making fun of him. It would have taken more spirit than most have to not use his power to destroy them all. [/quote]
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Post by kencoolidge on Feb 2, 2011 13:57:08 GMT -5
Ken: I know full when how to harmonize here. If I would vehemently pour out criticism of the workers and their faults, I probably could be lead singer. You refer to the wolves being removed from the flock. A flock of sheep naturally is a target for wolves. It is the job of the shepherd to protect the flock. He doesn't use other sheep to destroy the wolves. JMHO TS is a shepherd, in my opinion, and God is using him because certain overseers are refusing to do their jobs as shepherds. It's that simple to me. TS filling the place that he is in reminds me of a quote from Desmond Tutu: "I am a leader by default, only because nature does not allow a vacuum." me too ken
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Post by alexander on Feb 2, 2011 14:01:15 GMT -5
Alexander: I've been there and feel no need to tell the circumstances. I've gone through losing a meeting and taking away my being an elder. It was wrong, I didn't agree with it but I took it and didn't fight back. I had every reason to be bitter. Today we have meeting in our home and I have the humble place of leading the meeting. When Jesus was on the cross the last thing he mentioned was his spirit. He commended it to God. Just think of those people making fun of him. It would have taken more spirit than most have to not use his power to destroy them all. I know you have confronted a worker and had your meeting removed, Linford, and thanks for sharing that with me. But if it was wrong, and although you bore the punishment quietly and got the meeting back, what about the meeting that was just taken away from your brother in Christ based on the same wrong? What about the folks in Alberta that lost their meetings for disagreeing with an overseer? A meeting has been disbanded as a result of TSs inquiries. A worker has been kicked out of the work for confronting an overseer about an affair that he had with another sister worker. Is the right thing to do to just pass by on the other side of the road, it isn't our problem? I am not wanting to destroy anyone. I just want the overseers to examine themselves before the Lord and ask for His guidance to help them again to become shepherds that care for ALL the sheep, not just those that adore and worship them. I want the spirit of the Pharisee and making clean the outside of the platter to be kicked to the curb and left there to rot.
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