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Post by alexander on Jan 31, 2011 9:49:33 GMT -5
As most everyone knows, TS is on a crusade against sexual immorality in the work. But why? TS has told me that he wouldn't even be involved with it now, IF the workers had simply taken his initial complaint seriously. But they didn't. Overseer after overseer told him that there wasn't much that they could do. Some scolded him. Almost all expressed a concern for his soul and wished that he would return to gospel meetings. Imagine that, here he was calling them about a concern that he had of a brother worker that was openly living a double-life, and the overseers expressed little concern- but yet, they expressed "great" concern for TS. So, they could handle TS's, "problem", but not even investigate the brother worker's "problem".
And to me, that is the crying shame of the matter. I don't really care if all of the workers want to have affairs. I really don't. It's their life, and sex is a natural and good desire that God has put his creation. Paul knew this, and that is why he recommended that those that burn in lust to marry. But the poor workers are caught in a system whereby it is a shame for them to leave the work and marry (even though Paul never indicated that it was a shame), and so they try to slide by, perhaps. One of the friends told my wife, after she left the work, that workers were supposed to die in the work. Imagine how that made her feel. She did almost die in the work from a disease that she caught in a foreign country. Now she is a great mother of 8 kids. But, thus is the pressure that workers feel to remain in the work- and it is not a Godly pressure.
No, I understand the sexual misdeeds. But what I don't understand is the dishonesty. The lying. The coverups. And from what TS has gathered from speaking to many friends and workers, there are at least 2 VERY senior overseers involved in sexual misconduct/sexual harassment, and other senior overseers are covering for them. One of the friends had a meeting with one of the overseers and his overseer, a third party mediator, and her husband. The overseer LIED and DENIED (according to the victim) every one of the victim's allegations. However, he slipped up midway through the conversation and it was clear to all, that he wasn't being completely honest. Clear to all, that is, except to his overseer- who when the lady asked for a second meeting, responded with, "I am not going to get involved with he said - she said." The lady and the friends in her area were astounded at the callousness. And it has really affected that area's thoughts on the ministry.
Can the leader's not see? Are they that blind? The workers are not perfect and never have been perfect. Why try to maintain the illusion of a pure ministry? It doesn't exist. It never has. The workers are simply MEN and WOMEN doing the best that they can to serve the Lord in a model based on the New Testament ministry, but not a model fully based on the New Testament ministry- and so they do the best that they can. But the workers need to be reminded of this, evidently,: a true shepherd will protect the sheep and NOT the other shepherds that are hurting the sheep.
I have been appalled at the accounts of the friends and workers that I have been hearing of their mistreatment from the overseers anytime they have went to them regarding sexual or ethical misconduct from a fellow worker. This corruption/misguided policy of protecting the image of the ministry over the realities of the ministry is doing more to damage it then its leaders realize. Just be honest, guys. Just be honest.
When I begin to see the workers placing more emphasis on the sheeps' care over the care of their misbehaving fellow shepherds, then I will know that this ministry is again on the right track. As of right now- a few dead flies in the ointment is causing it to send forth a stinking savor in the land.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 31, 2011 10:10:50 GMT -5
I have been appalled at the accounts of the friends and workers that I have been hearing of their mistreatment from the overseers anytime they have went to them regarding sexual or ethical misconduct from a fellow worker. This corruption/misguided policy of protecting the image of the ministry over the realities of the ministry is doing more to damage it then its leaders realize. Just be honest, guys. Just be honest.The interesting part of that is there appears to be a growing number of friends that are keeping track of which overseers fail to take action in these situations. Those overseers that ignore or minimize the issues brought to them are losing the trust and respect of many of the friends. Likewise those workers that have engaged in immoral activity and then moved elsewhere are being tracked and friends are taking it upon themselves to notify friends in that area about why the worker was moved there. Each time this happens, it isn't just one overseer that loses respect and trust, it is usual several. In the issue that alexander mentions above, there were at least 6 overseers involved one way or another. The end result was that even with all the evidence presented to them (and it was much more than just this incident), the worker was moved to a new field and the most action taken was against those that brought the issue to the attention of other overseers. There really needs to be some elder involvement in these issues. Workers policing workers doesn't work well, but if the church body was involved in holding the workers accountable for their actions, then the results would probably be much different. Scott
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Post by alexander on Jan 31, 2011 10:23:00 GMT -5
The end result was that even with all the evidence presented to them (and it was much more than just this incident), the worker was moved to a new field and the most action taken was against those that brought the issue to the attention of other overseers. What did you mean by this, Scott? Were the victims/accusers punished or made to feel guilty?
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 31, 2011 10:26:03 GMT -5
Just a note on how immorality is handled in other churches. Yesterday my wife and I, another couple and one other lady had lunch at the home of our pastor. Among many of the conversations, the issue of immorality within the ranks of clergy came up. Keith (pastor) and his wife Deb shared about how devastated they were when they heard of the pastor of a church that they were a part of was found to be in a 12 year affair with a woman. This was discovered while the pastor was out of town on a speaking engagement. When asked how that church handled the situation, Keith said that the church elders met that pastor's at the airport and informed him that he was no longer to consider himself their pastor and fired him on the spot. Keith went on to discuss other pastors he had known about who were found to be in affairs, and in each and every situation the pastors were relieved of their duties by the elders of the church. He also went on to talk about how some of those pastors were able to be restored within the church, but never again as a pastor. He spoke to us about the scriptural reference to this subject concerning holding those in positions of authority to a higher standard. On of those is in James 3: 1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. It was an interesting subject to talk about, and then I was asked about how I got involved with WINGS, and how issues such as CSA and sexual immorality were being handled in the church I grew up in. That brought up some interesting comments in regard to a church who had a clergy with no oversight from the elders and church members and policed only by the clergy....... Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 31, 2011 10:35:17 GMT -5
The end result was that even with all the evidence presented to them (and it was much more than just this incident), the worker was moved to a new field and the most action taken was against those that brought the issue to the attention of other overseers. What did you mean by this, Scott? Were the victims/accusers punished or made to feel guilty? The individual offended was told she needed to forgive the worker, and the others involved were expected to be quiet about it. Likewise my understanding is that one lady lost speaking privileges in meeting for talking about it. There are probably others that know more about that then I do. I do know that the overseers felt that the individual had accepted the worker's apology to her, but this is her own words about that: "the only apology was at the final mediation session, but I told him I did not really accept it because I knew he would do it again. I told him I thought he was only apologizing because he was being told to, and didn't really feel he meant it because he still felt he had done nothing wrong."Scott
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Post by alexander on Jan 31, 2011 11:30:10 GMT -5
What did you mean by this, Scott? Were the victims/accusers punished or made to feel guilty? The individual offended was told she needed to forgive the worker, and the others involved were expected to be quiet about it. Likewise my understanding is that one lady lost speaking privileges in meeting for talking about it. There are probably others that know more about that then I do. I do know that the overseers felt that the individual had accepted the worker's apology to her, but this is her own words about that: "the only apology was at the final mediation session, but I told him I did not really accept it because I knew he would do it again. I told him I thought he was only apologizing because he was being told to, and didn't really feel he meant it because he still felt he had done nothing wrong."Scott From what I have heard of the story, she is right. He will do it again. One of my companions used to tell me that what we hide when one is young, will come out when they are old because as the brain goes, those thoughts become apparent. He used this as an example of why the sweet little old ladies in the nursing home always spoke about the good old days when the workers first brought the gospel to them- that that was in their heart and that was what meant the most to them. So when a worker starts talking with one of the wives of one of the friends alone, about extremely sexual desires and sexually leading questions. . . it does show what that senior worker had been thinking about. He didn't just learn those terms and sexual concepts from reading his bible. And I feel pity for that worker. Before long he will be a pariah with other workers and friends. And he simply just needs help, care, and understanding- and he needs to be honest with himself and others. But, the victim does NOT need to be made to feel like a victim, and his overseers do NOT need to shill for him, and blame everyone else but the guilty party. To me, that is the SHAME of the whole matter. The innocent are punished. The victims are victimized further and on guilt trips.
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Post by nique on Jan 31, 2011 11:30:24 GMT -5
I would like to offer a bit of a different perspective that may or may not apply to what is the response to all this ugly, but not as a justification to cover-up. I was on the staff of one of the overseers that Alexander is speaking of. During that time I was called to the home of one of the friends in that state and met with a wonderful older woman and her grand daughter. I had been in that field previously and knew them both quite well. The grand daughter was married with two children and was distraught that this overseer visited her alone and was inappropriate toward her. He kissed her and made her very uncomfortable with touch and intimate words. She was so taken off guard she hardly knew what to do as this overseer had been very helpful to her in her long struggle to get past drug abuse and to profess and get some stability in her life. She showed me the letter this overseer had written her with a weak attempt to apologize. She was very angry and wanted to blow. One of the requests she had for him was that he would no longer visit or travel alone. For some reason I was scared that she would blow and tried to talk her down. Strangely I wasn't trying to protect the overseer, although I had had a lot of respect for him, I was thinking about the sanctity of the work which I believed in. We were a really young staff and I knew some of the struggles that each one had to be honorable. I also knew that just about everyone was very protective of that woman because they had all tried to help her. I was worried about what it do to the staff and what it would do to the state. Younger workers on the staff had to approach this overseer and make him try to take responsibility and it was very awkward. I think cover ups are WRONG and yet at the time and with where I was I understood the temptation to keep it under wraps but for different reasons then protecting the overseer. I felt differently later when there was very little in the way of apology or remorse. And he did not take the advice to travel with a co-worker. Today, while I would in one sense hate to have all this ugly brought to light, I think that it probably would be the best thing for the kingdom at large. In fact I think it could be a blessing in that people would be forced to be less dependent on workers and fellowship and more dependent on God. I think the workers have become a substitute for God. People ask them for guidance instead of God at times. I say that based on the kind of questions that people asked me when I was in the work. In storms dead branches are shaken loose but live ones weather it. I think a real s%#t storm would do a lot of good. I may just join the crusade !!!! GO TS!!!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2011 12:02:39 GMT -5
Thanks for the post nique, it really rings of honesty.
The instinct to "protect the ministry" appears to be not only widespread amongst the workers but also is the primary reason for the "coverups". It is both natural and logical to be like this.
However, it is not right and cannot result in anything except the destruction of the ministry, the very opposite result of what is intended.
There are a host of reasons as to why coverups to protect the ministry will lead to its demise. Here's three:
1. It indicates a lack of faith in God. 2. It is fundamentally dishonest and once you start practicing dishonesty in one part of your life, it spreads to other parts of your life. 3. You will probably not agree, but coverups start with pride......always. A humble ministry will not fear the truth being known.
Interestingly, the truth, even if it is ugly, will actually increase one's respectability amongst good people. Sure, some shallow people will look down on others' errors, but in the long run, the respect for the ministry will increase if they are honest about their faults and deal with them openly and honestly. I always look to the example of a certain Premier of a province of Canada who had a lot of faults, but everytime he owned up to them, the respect of the people went up. Even publicly admitting his alcoholism resulted in a big increase in the polls for him. People love honesty in leaders and deep down they know that leaders aren't perfect......but those who pretend they are only generate skepticism until they are found out, then they get cynicism.
Workers make mistakes, others are overcome with evil. We know that. However, let's not live a lie and pretend otherwise.
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Post by alexander on Jan 31, 2011 12:08:51 GMT -5
In fact I think it could be a blessing in that people would be forced to be less dependent on workers and fellowship and more dependent on God. I think the workers have become a substitute for God. People ask them for guidance instead of God at times. I say that based on the kind of questions that people asked me when I was in the work. In storms dead branches are shaken loose but live ones weather it. I think a real s%#t storm would do a lot of good. I may just join the crusade !!!! GO TS!!!!! Absolutely. It has been a blessing to me that such a storm has blown through my life and caused me to quit seeing the workers as "men as trees walking". Go Nique!
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Post by alexander on Jan 31, 2011 12:10:16 GMT -5
Thanks for the post nique, it really rings of honesty. The instinct to "protect the ministry" appears to be not only widespread amongst the workers but also is the primary reason for the "coverups". It is both natural and logical to be like this. However, it is not right and cannot result in anything except the destruction of the ministry, the very opposite result of what is intended. There are a host of reasons as to why coverups to protect the ministry will lead to its demise. Here's three: 1. It indicates a lack of faith in God. 2. It is fundamentally dishonest and once you start practicing dishonesty in one part of your life, it spreads to other parts of your life. 3. You will probably not agree, but coverups start with pride......always. A humble ministry will not fear the truth being known. Interestingly, the truth, even if it is ugly, will actually increase one's respectability amongst good people. Sure, some shallow people will look down on others' errors, but in the long run, the respect for the ministry will increase if they are honest about their faults and deal with them openly and honestly. I always look to the example of a certain Premier of a province of Canada who had a lot of faults, but everytime he owned up to them, the respect of the people went up. Even publicly admitting his alcoholism resulted in a big increase in the polls for him. People love honesty in leaders and deep down they know that leaders aren't perfect......but those who pretend they are only generate skepticism until they are found out, then they get cynicism. Workers make mistakes, others are overcome with evil. We know that. However, let's not live a lie and pretend otherwise. Absolutely. Great post.
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Post by rational on Jan 31, 2011 12:21:39 GMT -5
Among many of the conversations, the issue of immorality within the ranks of clergy came up. Keith (pastor) and his wife Deb shared about how devastated they were when they heard of the pastor of a church that they were a part of was found to be in a 12 year affair with a woman. This was discovered while the pastor was out of town on a speaking engagement. When asked how that church handled the situation, Keith said that the church elders met that pastor's at the airport and informed him that he was no longer to consider himself their pastor and fired him on the spot. This raises a couple of questions for me. Was the pastor ever given a chance to speak about the situation? It seems dangerous to have a trial and convict the man without hearing his side of the situation. And the second question is was the pastor doing his job during the preceding 11 years? This sounds like the companies who terminate employees that have been working and doing a good job for years because the fact that they did not graduate from college is discovered. From the employer standpoint - was the pastor doing his job?
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Post by nique on Jan 31, 2011 12:30:53 GMT -5
Is the pastor doing his job? Seriously? Isn't the job of a spiritual leader to lead in spiritual things both in word and deed? Is an example of adultery a good way to lead people to heaven?
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Post by rational on Jan 31, 2011 12:31:30 GMT -5
So when a worker starts talking with one of the wives of one of the friends alone, about extremely sexual desires and sexually leading questions. . . it does show what that senior worker had been thinking about. He didn't just learn those terms and sexual concepts from reading his bible. And I feel pity for that worker. Before long he will be a pariah with other workers and friends. And he simply just needs help, care, and understanding- and he needs to be honest with himself and others. Some people have an education and the terms and sexual concepts are taught. On the other have, if the worker is abusing/molesting women the place to bring the complaint is not to the workers but to the authorities. If the workers and overseers are not willing to clean up their act, and they form the framework of your belief, maybe it is time to examine your beliefs. If you went to a restaurant and the wait person was groping you every time they brought food you would complain to the management. If they did not correct the situation you would eat elsewhere. These workers are just people. Why do people have such a problem standing up to them when they believe they are right and that the workers are in the wrong?
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 31, 2011 12:43:21 GMT -5
Among many of the conversations, the issue of immorality within the ranks of clergy came up. Keith (pastor) and his wife Deb shared about how devastated they were when they heard of the pastor of a church that they were a part of was found to be in a 12 year affair with a woman. This was discovered while the pastor was out of town on a speaking engagement. When asked how that church handled the situation, Keith said that the church elders met that pastor's at the airport and informed him that he was no longer to consider himself their pastor and fired him on the spot. This raises a couple of questions for me. Was the pastor ever given a chance to speak about the situation? It seems dangerous to have a trial and convict the man without hearing his side of the situation. And the second question is was the pastor doing his job during the preceding 11 years? This sounds like the companies who terminate employees that have been working and doing a good job for years because the fact that they did not graduate from college is discovered. From the employer standpoint - was the pastor doing his job? From the employer standpoint - was the pastor doing his job?No he wasn't. He was an excellent teacher and a great pastor 'in church'. However his job is to be both the spiritual and moral leader in the church. Therefore he was failing miserably, and not fit to be in the position of pastor. All members of the clergy are to be held to a higher standard within the church. This is scriptural, and totally separate from what some might see as an unfair judgment. Confession and repentance might bring restoration within the church, but rarely (if ever) is it going to allow an individual to remain as the pastor. Nope... to the question as to whether he was allowed to tell his side of the story. It was immaterial to the elders, as they already had confirmation and proof of his affair. This pastor's daughter was a close friend of Deb (my pastor's wife). Deb was sure that she would need support through all of this, and went to visit her. She was quite surprised to find out that this woman was relieved that her dad's affair was known publicly. It had been known by the family for quite some time, and was a real burden for them to bear. By bringing it into the open the family was finally able to heal from the hurt their dad/husband had inflicted upon them. And..... the church weathered this issue just fine, and emerged stronger as a church body for having the elders promptly take care of the issue. Scott
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Post by alexander on Jan 31, 2011 13:10:48 GMT -5
These workers are just people. Why do people have such a problem standing up to them when they believe they are right and that the workers are in the wrong? Ah, that is the issue. I don't know the answer to your question. I just saw a Dateline episode entitled "Twisted Faith" whereby a pastor at a church had sexual relations with at least 4 church members. Included 2 that were married. He was also their marriage counselor. He would kick the husbands out of the sessions after the first session so that he could begin building a bond of trust with just the women. And they all said that they trusted him as a man of God. When asked why they didn't confront him, one of the women said, "Any that opposed the church leadership or that asked questions were labelled as having a 'demonic spirit' (contrast with the workers labeling those that question or that raise issues as having a 'bad spirit'). ( watch beginning at the 1:39 mark in the video below) The conclusion of the story was this- they all learned a lesson- don't put men on pedestals- just like we do with the workers.
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Post by ts on Jan 31, 2011 13:20:41 GMT -5
People have a problem standing up because they usually have little provable and concrete evidence of what is going on(even if something happened to them directly) and there are too many people who doubt them and support the overseer. It takes courage to stand up against such forces.
You are a strong minded individual, rational. Perhaps you find it difficult to enter into the mind of someone who isn't so secure in themselves. You have shown little weakness in all other areas in your life. Perhaps that is your weakness.
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Post by kencoolidge on Jan 31, 2011 13:40:12 GMT -5
I would like to offer a bit of a different perspective that may or may not apply to what is the response to all this ugly, but not as a justification to cover-up. I was on the staff of one of the overseers that Alexander is speaking of. During that time I was called to the home of one of the friends in that state and met with a wonderful older woman and her grand daughter. I had been in that field previously and knew them both quite well. The grand daughter was married with two children and was distraught that this overseer visited her alone and was inappropriate toward her. He kissed her and made her very uncomfortable with touch and intimate words. She was so taken off guard she hardly knew what to do as this overseer had been very helpful to her in her long struggle to get past drug abuse and to profess and get some stability in her life. She showed me the letter this overseer had written her with a weak attempt to apologize. She was very angry and wanted to blow. One of the requests she had for him was that he would no longer visit or travel alone. For some reason I was scared that she would blow and tried to talk her down. Strangely I wasn't trying to protect the overseer, although I had had a lot of respect for him, I was thinking about the sanctity of the work which I believed in. We were a really young staff and I knew some of the struggles that each one had to be honorable. I also knew that just about everyone was very protective of that woman because they had all tried to help her. I was worried about what it do to the staff and what it would do to the state. Younger workers on the staff had to approach this overseer and make him try to take responsibility and it was very awkward. I think cover ups are WRONG and yet at the time and with where I was I understood the temptation to keep it under wraps but for different reasons then protecting the overseer. I felt differently later when there was very little in the way of apology or remorse. And he did not take the advice to travel with a co-worker. Today, while I would in one sense hate to have all this ugly brought to light, I think that it probably would be the best thing for the kingdom at large. In fact I think it could be a blessing in that people would be forced to be less dependent on workers and fellowship and more dependent on God. I think the workers have become a substitute for God. People ask them for guidance instead of God at times. I say that based on the kind of questions that people asked me when I was in the work. In storms dead branches are shaken loose but live ones weather it. I think a real s%#t storm would do a lot of good. I may just join the crusade !!!! GO TS!!!!! Welcome to TMB Your words are welcomed as well as you thoughts towards a thourough cleaning of the kingdoms halls. Love you Sister ken
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Post by kencoolidge on Jan 31, 2011 13:44:21 GMT -5
Among many of the conversations, the issue of immorality within the ranks of clergy came up. Keith (pastor) and his wife Deb shared about how devastated they were when they heard of the pastor of a church that they were a part of was found to be in a 12 year affair with a woman. This was discovered while the pastor was out of town on a speaking engagement. When asked how that church handled the situation, Keith said that the church elders met that pastor's at the airport and informed him that he was no longer to consider himself their pastor and fired him on the spot. This raises a couple of questions for me. Was the pastor ever given a chance to speak about the situation? It seems dangerous to have a trial and convict the man without hearing his side of the situation. And the second question is was the pastor doing his job during the preceding 11 years? This sounds like the companies who terminate employees that have been working and doing a good job for years because the fact that they did not graduate from college is discovered. From the employer standpoint - was the pastor doing his job? Rational A little casual obfuscation into the mix always helps cloud the issues. Just ask Bert. The roach anology still getting under the skin? ken
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Jan 31, 2011 15:19:49 GMT -5
I see this whole scene as the unfortuante outworking a lack a of anointed teaching on prayer, the spiritual realm, angels and demons, fasting, the gifts of the spirit, and preaching a powerless Gospel. I know it is a hard statement but if they preached with power, believed in discipling the saints, and equiping the saints for the work of the ministry. I honestly dont believe you would have this problem on such a grande scale that it is. Because God would have warned the intercessors and the prophets of what was going on(he does that) and what was about to happen. Now it seems the whole thing is huge and out of control. People are hurt and not just victims.
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Post by ts on Jan 31, 2011 15:40:12 GMT -5
I see this whole scene as the unfortuante outworking a lack a of anointed teaching on prayer, the spiritual realm, angels and demons, fasting, the gifts of the spirit, and preaching a powerless Gospel. I know it is a hard statement but if they preached with power, believed in discipling the saints, and equiping the saints for the work of the ministry. I honestly dont believe you would have this problem on such a grande scale that it is. Because God would have warned the intercessors and the prophets of what was going on(he does that) and what was about to happen. Now it seems the whole thing is huge and out of control. People are hurt and not just victims. Thank you, shushy. It takes a lot of courage to say that in an environment that does not acknowledge the real actions and influences of the spirit world.
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Post by rational on Jan 31, 2011 18:33:40 GMT -5
Rational A little casual obfuscation into the mix always helps cloud the issues. Just ask Bert. The roach anology still getting under the skin? ken The pastor was doing his job for 11+ years and, from what has been posted, no one had a problem. Once it was found out suddenly he was not doing his job for the past 11 years. Knowledge of the circumstances does not change what the pastor was doing. The analogy is fine. Analogies, like Aesopica, are not facts but morality stories made up from whole cloth.
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Post by alexander on Jan 31, 2011 19:44:00 GMT -5
]The pastor was doing his job for 11+ years and, from what has been posted, no one had a problem. Once it was found out suddenly he was not doing his job for the past 11 years. Knowledge of the circumstances does not change what the pastor was doing. The analogy is fine. Analogies, like Aesopica, are not facts but morality stories made up from whole cloth. I'm not following you,Rational. What you are seemingly saying isn't rational. Dennis Radar, the BTK killer, was a deacon in his Lutheran church. By all accounts he was a great deacon. He also evidently performed his job adequately as a supervisor of the Park City Compliance Department from 1991 up until his capture in 2005 for the arrest of the murder of 10 people from 1974 and 1991. Knowledge of Dennis Radar's circumstances does not change what Mr. Radar was doing.
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meg1
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Post by meg1 on Jan 31, 2011 20:53:13 GMT -5
Rational A little casual obfuscation into the mix always helps cloud the issues. Just ask Bert. The roach anology still getting under the skin? ken The pastor was doing his job for 11+ years and, from what has been posted, no one had a problem. Once it was found out suddenly he was not doing his job for the past 11 years. Knowledge of the circumstances does not change what the pastor was doing.The analogy is fine. Analogies, like Aesopica, are not facts but morality stories made up from whole cloth. re: the bolded line. It doesn't change what he was doing... it illuminates it!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2011 20:54:42 GMT -5
Rational A little casual obfuscation into the mix always helps cloud the issues. Just ask Bert. The roach anology still getting under the skin? ken The pastor was doing his job for 11+ years and, from what has been posted, no one had a problem. Once it was found out suddenly he was not doing his job for the past 11 years. Knowledge of the circumstances does not change what the pastor was doing. The analogy is fine. Analogies, like Aesopica, are not facts but morality stories made up from whole cloth. The problem with religious groups is that most people don't notice whether or not a religious leader is doing a good job. Believers tend to be all or nothing, and the social pressure around them is to believe it all in unity with their brothers and sisters. If you want to be a deceptive leader, get into the religion business, it's easier to fool people.
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meg1
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Post by meg1 on Jan 31, 2011 21:05:39 GMT -5
Thanks for the post nique, it really rings of honesty. The instinct to "protect the ministry" appears to be not only widespread amongst the workers but also is the primary reason for the "coverups". It is both natural and logical to be like this. However, it is not right . Here's an interesting view... I am an ex of over 40 years and I only let go of the protect instinct two months ago!!! I agree wholeheartedly with the statement... "It is not right!"
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Post by rational on Jan 31, 2011 21:26:20 GMT -5
I'm not following you,Rational. What you are seemingly saying isn't rational. Dennis Radar, the BTK killer, was a deacon in his Lutheran church. By all accounts he was a great deacon. He also evidently performed his job adequately as a supervisor of the Park City Compliance Department from 1991 up until his capture in 2005 for the arrest of the murder of 10 people from 1974 and 1991. Knowledge of Dennis Radar's circumstances does not change what Mr. Radar was doing. He was not, as far as we know, dong anything illegal. He had been doing the job he was hired to do for over a decade. It seems these people became overly concerned in the pastor's private life. But I can understand that the self-righteous could not see their way around the pastor keeping his job.
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Post by emy on Jan 31, 2011 21:30:59 GMT -5
These workers are just people. Why do people have such a problem standing up to them when they believe they are right and that the workers are in the wrong? Ah, that is the issue. I don't know the answer to your question. I just saw a Dateline episode entitled "Twisted Faith" whereby a pastor at a church had sexual relations with at least 4 church members. Included 2 that were married. He was also their marriage counselor. He would kick the husbands out of the sessions after the first session so that he could begin building a bond of trust with just the women. And they all said that they trusted him as a man of God. When asked why they didn't confront him, one of the women said, "Any that opposed the church leadership or that asked questions were labelled as having a 'demonic spirit' (contrast with the workers labeling those that question or that raise issues as having a 'bad spirit'). ( watch beginning at the 1:39 mark in the video below) The conclusion of the story was this- they all learned a lesson- don't put men on pedestals- just like we do with the workers. This is an interesting documentary. I watched episodes 2,3,4,5, & 6 plus a 2010 update I found through Google.
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Post by ts on Jan 31, 2011 23:27:42 GMT -5
I'm not following you,Rational. What you are seemingly saying isn't rational. Dennis Radar, the BTK killer, was a deacon in his Lutheran church. By all accounts he was a great deacon. He also evidently performed his job adequately as a supervisor of the Park City Compliance Department from 1991 up until his capture in 2005 for the arrest of the murder of 10 people from 1974 and 1991. Knowledge of Dennis Radar's circumstances does not change what Mr. Radar was doing. He was not, as far as we know, dong anything illegal. He had been doing the job he was hired to do for over a decade. It seems these people became overly concerned in the pastor's private life. But I can understand that the self-righteous could not see their way around the pastor keeping his job. You can say what you do because you do not recognize the influence of the spirit world. A pastor enters into a trust or bond with people to teach them the word. The group forms together for the purpose of learning and being accountable to one another. Whether stated or not, that is at least part of the definition of Christian fellowship. As a part of the body of Christ and the body of believers, we do want our lives open and we want to be spiritually discerning in our conversations with others, too. Yes, those people Scott mentioned were looking into the man's private life. Because whether we like it or not, our private life does have an effect on our public life. "Doing a good job" as a preacher includes what we do in our private life. The Christian life isn't just about good words and good teaching, or the "business" side of things, you might say. I fully accept that this is not an intellectual discussion. If you assume that there is not God and no eternity after death, there is nothing to say. The people acted as they did with that preacher because they love him and care for his eternal future. They also did not want the influence of the spirit of adultery to be in their church. All of that assumes that God is and that there is a spirit world with spiritual consequences. If you do not believe those things, all you have is "Do what feels good to you as long as it does not hurt other people and isn't against the law. Be a good citizen."
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