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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Feb 2, 2011 14:07:55 GMT -5
Alexander: I've been there and feel no need to tell the circumstances. I've gone through losing a meeting and taking away my being an elder. It was wrong, I didn't agree with it but I took it and didn't fight back. I had every reason to be bitter. Today we have meeting in our home and I have the humble place of leading the meeting. When Jesus was on the cross the last thing he mentioned was his spirit. He commended it to God. Just think of those people making fun of him. It would have taken more spirit than most have to not use his power to destroy them all. I know you have confronted a worker and had your meeting removed, Linford, and thanks for sharing that with me. But if it was wrong, and although you bore the punishment quietly and got the meeting back, what about the meeting that was just taken away from your brother in Christ based on the same wrong? What about the folks in Alberta that lost their meetings for disagreeing with an overseer? A meeting has been disbanded as a result of TSs inquiries. A worker has been kicked out of the work for confronting an overseer about an affair that he had with another sister worker. Is the right thing to do to just pass by on the other side of the road, it isn't our problem? I am not wanting to destroy anyone. I just want the overseers to examine themselves before the Lord and ask for His guidance to help them again to become shepherds that care for ALL the sheep, not just those that adore and worship them. I want the spirit of the Pharisee and making clean the outside of the platter to be kicked to the curb and left there to rot. I too want what you are asking for. I have faith that God will give us what we are asking for, not ts. If he is a shepherd where are his sheep?
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Post by alexander on Feb 2, 2011 14:33:27 GMT -5
I know you have confronted a worker and had your meeting removed, Linford, and thanks for sharing that with me. But if it was wrong, and although you bore the punishment quietly and got the meeting back, what about the meeting that was just taken away from your brother in Christ based on the same wrong? What about the folks in Alberta that lost their meetings for disagreeing with an overseer? A meeting has been disbanded as a result of TSs inquiries. A worker has been kicked out of the work for confronting an overseer about an affair that he had with another sister worker. Is the right thing to do to just pass by on the other side of the road, it isn't our problem? I am not wanting to destroy anyone. I just want the overseers to examine themselves before the Lord and ask for His guidance to help them again to become shepherds that care for ALL the sheep, not just those that adore and worship them. I want the spirit of the Pharisee and making clean the outside of the platter to be kicked to the curb and left there to rot. I too want what you are asking for. I have faith that God will give us what we are asking for, not ts. If he is a shepherd where are his sheep? Maybe TS isn't a shepherd. Maybe he is just a dumb ass that the Lord is using to speak. But either way, I think the Lord is directing TS.
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Post by ts on Feb 2, 2011 14:52:34 GMT -5
So if ts and his crusade cleans up all the sin and filth that he talks about.What has he done? First of all he doesn't believe in this way. Is he going to come back as a hero? I'm sure he has sympathizers. Everyone does. What is his motivation and purpose. There is nothing wrong with exposing wrongs,but for goodness sake have a sane alternative. He talks of the gospel. The word gospel means glad news or glad tidings. Where is either in his message? JMT "This way" what are you referring to? Are you referring to the system of the workers or are you talking about the body of Christ? There is only one body. I went into the work to minister to the needs of the body and to preach the truth. I am still doing that as God has called me to do. Are the workers on a little crusade? I would think you would like to hear the joy of those we have spoken to and offered hope. They are in bondage to a doctrine that has put them in subjection to horrible men claiming to be the servants of God.
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Post by reply on Feb 2, 2011 14:58:05 GMT -5
I went into the work to minister to the needs of the body and to preach the truth. I am still doing that as God has called me to do. To whom did you minister? What truth did you preach? Did you attend church services with the Catholics, Lutherans, Seenth Day Adventists, and/or any others?
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Post by alexander on Feb 2, 2011 15:12:30 GMT -5
I would think you would like to hear the joy of those we have spoken to and offered hope. They are in bondage to a doctrine that has put them in subjection to horrible men claiming to be the servants of God. And some are in subjection to great men claiming to be the servants of God. I do appreciate that there are a great many Godly and honest servants in the 2x2 fellowship.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 2, 2011 15:17:05 GMT -5
I went into the work to minister to the needs of the body and to preach the truth. I am still doing that as God has called me to do.What do you consider 'the body'? Have you been working with issues other than those in the truth fellowship? Just curious, as it appears that for what you do, 'the body' is defined by those in the truth fellowship. No big deal, as there are many who are not members of the truth fellowship that tend to point out issues in the church they have quit attending. This is normal for other churches that consider themselves 'exclusive' also. There is a lot of anger directed at the church they left because they feel they were decieved and lied to about the importance of the church. This post could almost be from someone on the TMB by taking a few sentences out of it: .......... I got out at the age of 45, and I went through a lot of emotions once I realized the "truth" wasn't the "truth". Once I realized that it wasn't just that I was a bad person and couldn't live up to it anymore.
Once I realized how conditional everyone's love really was. Once I discovered how duped I had been the first half of my life! There are a lot of late teens/early 20 somethings here and I am so envious that they got out so much earlier, but, we're here now, right?........................
Have you read Crisis of Conscience? Not that you need any more convincing, it's just a fabulous book! Glad that you found the love of your life! So welcome again! Join the fun anytime! Valeriethat is from an ex-Jehovah Witness board. exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/forums/2/Tell-Your-JW-Story-BoardI occasionally read the postings on these other boards and am amazed (and saddened) at how a religious experience can be so controlling and harmful to many people. Jesus told us that his yoke was easy and His burden was light, but man sure has added to that!!! Scott
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Post by ts on Feb 2, 2011 15:30:49 GMT -5
This is one side of the story but I think there are some details that have not been as well publicized. What details are those that haven't been well publicized? He went to convention. The overseer was suspicious of him being there because he knew that TS had been calling around to the other overseers asking about the worker that had caused him and his family harm. I have spoken with some of the friends that attended the convention- they said that they were all suspicious of why he was there. My question to that friend, was why? He hadn't had contact with TS in over 10 years. When last they spoke they were great friends. So what changed his high opinion of TS to a low opinion- and even being suspicious of his motives? Gossip. My friend agreed that that was true. So what "facts" do you know about TS's visit to that convention? If the "facts" are coming from the overseer, I am sure TS would love to learn more about what the overseer thought his motives were. I will tell you this, Rational. A miracle (or an improbable coincidence) happened to TS that validated his going to that convention while he was there. And William Lewis used to say that such as what happened to TS wasn't a coincidence, but evidence of God being in control. And, Linford, if you have more confidence in the overseer's story than mine, I still accept your offer(threat) to call him. Perhaps you can ask him who stole our notes, while you are at it. It is a miracle that they were stolen because it was an unlikely coincidence that they were taken ;D. It was definitely a confirmation to us of something. So, ask the overseer why we are not allowed to take part in meeting. Ask him if we did, point blank, tell him that we do not believe that the meetings are the only true way to heaven. Ask him if we had conversations with 2 of the friends about the money spent on convention grounds last year. Ask him if my beard is offensive to him. Ask him what we spoke about my brother in law that was in the work having affairs. As far as I know, these are the things we talked about and how he came to the conclusion that we were not to have a part in meeting. Ask him what we said our motives were for being there. We both told him independently the same thing and he acknowledged that we had said the same thing. Namely, we were there because we love the friends and I wanted to introduce my wife to them as I had labored among them, they were my family and I had talked to her about them.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 2, 2011 16:05:33 GMT -5
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Post by StAnne on Feb 2, 2011 16:09:34 GMT -5
Ken: I know full when how to harmonize here. If I would vehemently pour out criticism of the workers and their faults, I probably could be lead singer. You refer to the wolves being removed from the flock. A flock of sheep naturally is a target for wolves. It is the job of the shepherd to protect the flock. He doesn't use other sheep to destroy the wolves. JMHO TS is a shepherd, in my opinion, and God is using him because certain overseers are refusing to do their jobs as shepherds. It's that simple to me. TS filling the place that he is in reminds me of a quote from Desmond Tutu: "I am a leader by default, only because nature does not allow a vacuum." Got carried away there a bit, didn't you? An agent or advocate of change, perhaps but... A shepherd? A leader?
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Post by ts on Feb 2, 2011 16:11:52 GMT -5
I went into the work to minister to the needs of the body and to preach the truth. I am still doing that as God has called me to do.What do you consider 'the body'? Have you been working with issues other than those in the truth fellowship? Just curious, as it appears that for what you do, 'the body' is defined by those in the truth fellowship. No big deal, as there are many who are not members of the truth fellowship that tend to point out issues in the church they have quit attending. This is normal for other churches that consider themselves 'exclusive' also. There is a lot of anger directed at the church they left because they feel they were decieved and lied to about the importance of the church. This post could almost be from someone on the TMB by taking a few sentences out of it: .......... I got out at the age of 45, and I went through a lot of emotions once I realized the "truth" wasn't the "truth". Once I realized that it wasn't just that I was a bad person and couldn't live up to it anymore.
Once I realized how conditional everyone's love really was. Once I discovered how duped I had been the first half of my life! There are a lot of late teens/early 20 somethings here and I am so envious that they got out so much earlier, but, we're here now, right?........................
Have you read Crisis of Conscience? Not that you need any more convincing, it's just a fabulous book! Glad that you found the love of your life! So welcome again! Join the fun anytime! Valeriethat is from an ex-Jehovah Witness board. exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/forums/2/Tell-Your-JW-Story-BoardI occasionally read the postings on these other boards and am amazed (and saddened) at how a religious experience can be so controlling and harmful to many people. Jesus told us that his yoke was easy and His burden was light, but man sure has added to that!!! Scott I think I understand what you are asking, Scott. I will try to answer. When I prayed to God to know the truth and to get out of the confusion that I was in, I did not know much about the meetings except that my sister went and my parents thought it was a cult. My prayer was to God. The group He led me to was the F&Ws. I did at one time think that group was synonymous with the body of Christ. I thought I was called to preach to them and to preach the gospel to the "outsiders" so that they could be a part of the F&Ws because I believed, as they taught, that that was the only place where fellowship with God's people could take place. The years in the work and then out of the work taught me a few things. They are not exclusive, they are in bondage, and that there are other fine members of the body of Christ outside the church. Those members have ministered to me and I have ministered to them according to our gifts and abilities. I am not angry "for being lied to" or anything like that. The starting date of a group does not matter to me in the least. It did not matter to me in the work, either. It is a non issue to me, personally. The thing that does matter to me is the abuse of power that hurts people physically, emotionally, financially and spiritually. It is important that I was called and directed into the ministry of the F&Ws. I was not called into the Catholic, Methodists or any other group. God saw the need for my talents in the F&Ws. I am sure that there are abuses or other problems in the other churches that are hurting sincere people who are trying to follow Jesus. I simply know more about the inner workings of the F&Ws as a result of living the lifestyle for 12 years coupled with my unique background of being raised in lies and deception by an immoral and blasphemous dad. There are workers with the same background who have chosen to love lies and follow the path of immorality. The lies I grew up with, thanks be to the mercy of our Heavenly Father, made me love truth that much more and also gave me insight into the anatomy of lies that are made to look like truth. In our area we are in fellowship with various individuals with whom we can discuss scriptures, pray together and share a common goal in the community. There are lots of children in our lives that we can be a guide to. God is using us outside the bounds of the F&W to touch lives (and we are also touched by their lives, as well). When we are ministering to these people (or being ministered to by them) with our gifts and calling, we are not trying to get them to come to meetings. Personally, I don't even evangelize, per se. I don't think I have ever stepped someone through the process of "being saved." Wouldn't even know how. I am sure that if I needed to know and someone needed that sort of service. I am content for someone else to do the work of an evangelist, otherwise. I just feel that the body of Christ does not have any political boundaries. We all have our gifts and callings. We all have a place in the body. I hate the corruption that is in the body that is affecting the friends and workers(where my calling is). So, it looks like I am the liver or the kidneys or the rectum. Maybe I am the ahole. Whatever my place is, the corruption is coming out so that the poor and weak will have peace and healing.
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Post by sharonw on Feb 2, 2011 16:18:13 GMT -5
I too want what you are asking for. I have faith that God will give us what we are asking for, not ts. If he is a shepherd where are his sheep? Maybe TS isn't a shepherd. Maybe he is just a dumb ass that the Lord is using to speak. But either way, I think the Lord is directing TS. Sorry Alexander, I know of what you're inferring here, but it sure hit me funny!
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Post by sharonw on Feb 2, 2011 16:23:20 GMT -5
I went into the work to minister to the needs of the body and to preach the truth. I am still doing that as God has called me to do.What do you consider 'the body'? Have you been working with issues other than those in the truth fellowship? Just curious, as it appears that for what you do, 'the body' is defined by those in the truth fellowship. No big deal, as there are many who are not members of the truth fellowship that tend to point out issues in the church they have quit attending. This is normal for other churches that consider themselves 'exclusive' also. There is a lot of anger directed at the church they left because they feel they were decieved and lied to about the importance of the church. This post could almost be from someone on the TMB by taking a few sentences out of it: .......... I got out at the age of 45, and I went through a lot of emotions once I realized the "truth" wasn't the "truth". Once I realized that it wasn't just that I was a bad person and couldn't live up to it anymore.
Once I realized how conditional everyone's love really was. Once I discovered how duped I had been the first half of my life! There are a lot of late teens/early 20 somethings here and I am so envious that they got out so much earlier, but, we're here now, right?........................
Have you read Crisis of Conscience? Not that you need any more convincing, it's just a fabulous book! Glad that you found the love of your life! So welcome again! Join the fun anytime! Valeriethat is from an ex-Jehovah Witness board. exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/forums/2/Tell-Your-JW-Story-BoardI occasionally read the postings on these other boards and am amazed (and saddened) at how a religious experience can be so controlling and harmful to many people. Jesus told us that his yoke was easy and His burden was light, but man sure has added to that!!! Scott Again! I'm reminded of this scripture. Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 2, 2011 16:25:15 GMT -5
I think I understand what you are asking, Scott. I will try to answerThanks ts, was just wondering.....
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Post by ts on Feb 2, 2011 16:36:59 GMT -5
I too want what you are asking for. I have faith that God will give us what we are asking for, not ts. If he is a shepherd where are his sheep? Maybe TS isn't a shepherd. Maybe he is just a dumb ass that the Lord is using to speak. But either way, I think the Lord is directing TS. Well, I do have big ears, I'm kinda hairy, very stubborn and often bray loudly. I qualify. ;D Yes, there are many people being used by God to get the corruption out of the ministry. I am glad to be counted in that number. I am not starting a movement, I am not an organizer or a leader. It is plain that God uses the weak things of this world to do his work. We qualify. If you compare ourselves with the overseers who have been crafty enough to do what they have done all these years, it is very plain that he has used our weakness to confound the wise and prudent. We do marvel at God's work. We have often prayed that God would make it plain that it was Him who was revealing all the hidden works of darkness. Yet, we forget that prayer and wonder why we are in the weakened state that we are in. Then we have to give Him thanks that he has given us day by day our daily bread.
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Post by alexander on Feb 2, 2011 16:58:35 GMT -5
Maybe TS isn't a shepherd. Maybe he is just a dumb ass that the Lord is using to speak. But either way, I think the Lord is directing TS. Sorry Alexander, I know of what you're inferring here, but it sure hit me funny! Right, I realized when I wrote it that it sounded humorous. I'm glad TS is a good sport about it.
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Post by kiwi on Feb 3, 2011 3:57:54 GMT -5
from the first post on this topic- "As most everyone knows, TS is on a crusade against sexual immorality in the work. But why? TS has told me that he wouldn't even be involved with it now, IF the workers had simply taken his initial complaint seriously. But they didn't." Wonder if there are others like myself who feel and pray that God will use the right people who will be guided to do the right thing at the right time to address the concern we have.....and wonder on the the suitability of our 'valiant crusader ts' for the task at hand? Refer to my post on the "ts, recommendation for overseers" topic. I am like thyself and I pray everyday that God would purify the ministry because no matter how hard ts tries nobody can work like God.
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Post by emerald on Feb 3, 2011 7:53:57 GMT -5
from the first post on this topic- "As most everyone knows, TS is on a crusade against sexual immorality in the work. But why? TS has told me that he wouldn't even be involved with it now, IF the workers had simply taken his initial complaint seriously. But they didn't." Wonder if there are others like myself who feel and pray that God will use the right people who will be guided to do the right thing at the right time to address the concern we have.....and wonder on the the suitability of our 'valiant crusader ts' for the task at hand? Refer to my post on the "ts, recommendation for overseers" topic. I am like thyself and I pray everyday that God would purify the ministry because no matter how hard ts tries nobody can work like God. Very true kiwi, but while waiting for God to work, those that are known to have failed to uphold the teachings of Jesus regarding sexual morality should be asked to step aside. All the more particularly if the immorality should involve minors. Every worker I know has a very strong opinion on sexual immorality, almost every worker has spoken to me or my friends on this same subject. They take their position from scripture and are anxious that the friends uphold this scripturally directed position. All good. But the problems arise when they fail to uphold these standards too. It's not too much to expect sexually immoral workers to be relieved of their duties until God does His work. The reputation of those that proclaim to carry the precious Gospel must be as close to blameless as is humanly possible. It's the least we or "the world" can expect - God's precious Word cannot be carried in so careless and selfish a manner.
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Post by alexander on Feb 3, 2011 9:26:01 GMT -5
from the first post on this topic- "As most everyone knows, TS is on a crusade against sexual immorality in the work. But why? TS has told me that he wouldn't even be involved with it now, IF the workers had simply taken his initial complaint seriously. But they didn't." Wonder if there are others like myself who feel and pray that God will use the right people who will be guided to do the right thing at the right time to address the concern we have.....and wonder on the the suitability of our 'valiant crusader ts' for the task at hand? Refer to my post on the "ts, recommendation for overseers" topic. I share your sentiment. From speaking with TS in the past, he shares your sentiment. What folks need to remember, TS asked over 21 overseers for help. None helped. Only a few showed any interest at all. And quite a few were quite rude with TS for even daring to try and confront a misbehaving worker. A few even denied that they knew nothing about what TS was asking them about- when TS knew that they did know- the overseers just didn't realize that TS was privy to more information then they thought that he had. In other words, TS caught them in a lie. All the while, more and more information is coming into the light and more cover-ups and meetings being disbanded have occurred because of TS's questions. The behavior doesn't seem to be changing with a few overseers- the operating procedure seems to be: deny, lie, cover-up, attack any that ask about the issue of sexual immorality/confront a worker about sexual immorality, and finally isolate any friends that know about the sexual immorality. TS has this documented. As I have written countless times, my crusade isn't against sexual immorality in the work. My crusade is against the attacking of the sheep from these predators whenever their misdeeds are discovered. The sheep are the innocent ones, and it disturbs me to see them getting bullied by bad overseers. I used to turn a blind eye to it, thinking that the sheep were getting what they deserved. But no more.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 3, 2011 9:51:17 GMT -5
I wonder if this type treatment has its basis in the type "government" used by the F&W church? Just a cursory glance on the internet for "church government" shows there are 3 main styles of government used by prominent churches: They are titled: 1) THE PRESBYTERIAN SYSTEM - REPUBLIC 2) THE EPISCOPAL (ANGLICAN) SYSTEM - MONARCHY OR PRELACY 3) THE CONGREGATIONAL SYSTEM - DEMOCRACY According to this article which article describes the differences in various church styles of government: ezinearticles.com/?Presbyterian-Church-Government&id=3537799"To evaluate the quality of a church's government, we must determine specifically what church polity is responsible for. In considering the function of church government, we can see that there are seven significant elements in the administration of a church. They are: 1. The source of authority 2. The ordination of ministers 3. The call of the pastor 4. The finances of the church 5. The admission and discipline of members 6. The doctrines of the church 7. Actions by the congregation" "When denominations were forming in the 16th century, denominations often took their names from the type of church government they adopted. The names Presbyterian, Episcopal and Congregational reflect this. The reason this was done was simply because in general all denominations subscribed to the same theology, Reformed, their differences were found only in their church government." Perhaps another style of church government would be preferable to that now used by the F&W?
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Post by alexander on Feb 3, 2011 9:58:14 GMT -5
I wonder if this type treatment has its basis in the type "government" used by the F&W church? Jut a cursory glance on the internet for "church government" shows there are 3 main styles of government used by prominent churches: They are titled: 1) THE PRESBYTERIAN SYSTEM - REPUBLIC 2) THE EPISCOPAL (ANGLICAN) SYSTEM - MONARCHY OR PRELACY 3) THE CONGREGATIONAL SYSTEM - DEMOCRACY According to this article which article describes the differences in various church styles of government: ezinearticles.com/?Presbyterian-Church-Government&id=3537799"To evaluate the quality of a church's government, we must determine specifically what church polity is responsible for. In considering the function of church government, we can see that there are seven significant elements in the administration of a church. They are: 1. The source of authority 2. The ordination of ministers 3. The call of the pastor 4. The finances of the church 5. The admission and discipline of members 6. The doctrines of the church 7. Actions by the congregation" "When denominations were forming in the 16th century, denominations often took their names from the type of church government they adopted. The names Presbyterian, Episcopal and Congregational reflect this. The reason this was done was simply because in general all denominations subscribed to the same theology, Reformed, their differences were found only in their church government." Perhaps another style of church government would be preferable to that now used by the F&W? The F&W is a dictatorship/Episcopal. The overseer is dictator of his state/country. If you have a benevolent/loving/Godly overseer then the Lord's people prosper. But, if one has a tyranical overseer who enjoys the power for power's sake, then the Lord's people suffer. And as TS has learned from speaking with over 21 of them, some of them are kind and some of them are not so kind. But NONE seemed to indicate that they had any authority beyond their own fiefdom.
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Post by rational on Feb 3, 2011 9:59:59 GMT -5
Very true kiwi, but while waiting for God to work, those that are known to have failed to uphold the teachings of Jesus regarding sexual morality should be asked to step aside. What, exactly, are the teachings of Jesus regarding sexual morality?
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Post by emerald on Feb 3, 2011 12:26:45 GMT -5
Very true kiwi, but while waiting for God to work, those that are known to have failed to uphold the teachings of Jesus regarding sexual morality should be asked to step aside. What, exactly, are the teachings of Jesus regarding sexual morality? Matt15 v19,20 KJV
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2011 12:30:01 GMT -5
Matthew 15:19 is a good place to start. Also the OT law which Jesus supported. He came not to change the law but to fulfill it.
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Post by rational on Feb 3, 2011 13:13:14 GMT -5
What, exactly, are the teachings of Jesus regarding sexual morality? Matt15 v19,20 KJV Thanks.
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Post by rational on Feb 3, 2011 13:14:41 GMT -5
Matthew 15:19 is a good place to start. Also the OT law which Jesus supported. He came not to change the law but to fulfill it. Although he was clearly at variance with the OT lae in saying that the hand cleansing rituals were not important nor what food you ate.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2011 13:41:17 GMT -5
Or is our understanding correct? The Pharisees etc thought Jesus had come to change the law because he applied it the way it was meant to be applied from the beginning, not how they had come to use it. They had forgotten the most important aspects in how to apply the law and by doing so came to some very different conclusions as to what Jesus did.
The law was fulfilled through good judgement, mercy and faith, the very things the Pharisees etc had long forgotten.
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Post by ts on Feb 3, 2011 14:07:12 GMT -5
from the first post on this topic- "As most everyone knows, TS is on a crusade against sexual immorality in the work. But why? TS has told me that he wouldn't even be involved with it now, IF the workers had simply taken his initial complaint seriously. But they didn't." Wonder if there are others like myself who feel and pray that God will use the right people who will be guided to do the right thing at the right time to address the concern we have.....and wonder on the the suitability of our 'valiant crusader ts' for the task at hand? Refer to my post on the "ts, recommendation for overseers" topic. I am like thyself and I pray everyday that God would purify the ministry because no matter how hard ts tries nobody can work like God. The workers go out to preach the gospel. Why? Would they not be better off sitting back and letting God preach the gospel? Who can preach it like God can?
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Post by Annan on Feb 3, 2011 17:56:09 GMT -5
The workers go out to preach the gospel. Why? Would they not be better off sitting back and letting God preach the gospel? Who can preach it like God can? My thoughts exactly. Let God speak to each man's heart if he so chooses. Let each man lead his life according to God's word to him and him only. Sorry.... I was having a bit of a fantasy there. ;D
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