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Post by gray on Aug 29, 2009 17:00:19 GMT -5
"But so far no one fromn the 2x2 denomination has clearly stated to even its professing member WHAT the beliefs are." Why should they?? Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women?? Why is there so little faith that God will do what he said, and that the unity Jesus prayed about and God promised will be a reality when we men get our own carnal opinions and interpretations out of the way?? One cult characteristic is an authoritarian top down rigid defining of beliefs. That's part of how groups turn into cults. For the most part that does not happen in the friends and workers fellowship, there is an amazing amount of freedom allowed for individuals to come to their own conclusions - to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling". Think about it. People see it too, I usually get asked what keeps the various home meetings from going off on their own tangents with so little top down control? Well what does? Workers cracking whips? Workers ruthlessly hypnotizing the friends into mindless robotic zombies?? Not in the meetings I've been in. It's really weird that kind of freedom get criticised the way it does. The workers should write group doctrine and exercise more top down control. Bizarre. The moment some men start defining to other men what and how they should think problems arise - in a pretty serious way that is preempting the Spirit's work. Why?? Why not just step our old man aside and let the Spirit and God do the work they are perfectly capable of doing? “Why should they??” Because the Bible commission believers to “preach the gospel to all nations. “Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women??” Because God did not promise to write the gospel on the hearts and minds of men and women, nor did God promise to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women. God inspired His chosen prophets and apostles to write His word in Scripture, which internally claims to be His word, “the truth,” and the Bible commissioned believers to preach the gospel to all nations. The rest of your post is obviously based upon the two faulty premises above, so the rest of your post is rendered meaningless. If you like to base your eternal destination on the varying concoctions of the hearts and minds of men and women, which God said are continually "evil," that is your decision to make.
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Post by JO on Aug 29, 2009 18:51:13 GMT -5
Perhaps the head workers pay you a salary for your typically 2x2 ‘work’ here on the TMB – I am beginning to believe the evidence of that is strong and growing. Be that as it may, if you like to base your eternal destination on the varying concoctions of the heats and minds of men and women, which God said are continually "evil," that is your decision to make. I don't always see things the same as Jesse, but I think what you wrote above is uncalled for Gray. Jesse makes a valid point about the dangers of written creeds and statements of faith.
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Post by gray on Aug 29, 2009 19:09:04 GMT -5
Perhaps the head workers pay you a salary for your typically 2x2 ‘work’ here on the TMB – I am beginning to believe the evidence of that is strong and growing. Be that as it may, if you like to base your eternal destination on the varying concoctions of the heats and minds of men and women, which God said are continually "evil," that is your decision to make. I don't always see things the same as Jesse, but I think what you wrote above is uncalled for Gray. Jesse makes a valid point about the dangers of written creeds and statements of faith. So let me stre-e-e-tch out a couple of obvious inferences from within Jesse’s post for you and the other readers and perhaps even for Jesse; Jesse wrote; “Why should they?? Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women??” 1 – If there is no need for “they” (the preachers) to preach the gospel, then perhaps someone could tell us why the 2x2 workers call themselves “preachers.” What is the "work" of the 2x2 Workers. 2 – If God’s “doctrine” is written on the hearts and minds of men and women, why do the 2x2 Workers insist upon the necessity of “preachers” (i.e., themselves) for anyone to know the gospel. Please notice, neither #1 or #2 above are questions – they are both logical conclusions drawn from the inferrences within Jesse’s post. I see no occurrence of the words "written creeds and statements of faith" within Jesse's post or mine. So your use of these as a "point" is meaningless within the context of these two posts.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 29, 2009 21:27:26 GMT -5
Copy. "But so far no one fromn the 2x2 denomination has clearly stated to even its professing member WHAT the beliefs are." Why should they?? Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women?? Why is there so little faith that God will do what he said, and that the unity Jesus prayed about and God promised will be a reality when we men get our own carnal opinions and interpretations out of the way?? One cult characteristic is an authoritarian top down rigid defining of beliefs. That's part of how groups turn into cults. For the most part that does not happen in the friends and workers fellowship, there is an amazing amount of freedom allowed for individuals to come to their own conclusions - to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling". Think about it. People see it too, I usually get asked what keeps the various home meetings from going off on their own tangents with so little top down control? Well what does? Workers cracking whips? Workers ruthlessly hypnotizing the friends into mindless robotic zombies?? Not in the meetings I've been in. It's really weird that kind of freedom get criticised the way it does. The workers should write group doctrine and exercise more top down control. Bizarre. The moment some men start defining to other men what and how they should think problems arise - in a pretty serious way that is preempting the Spirit's work. Why?? Why not just step our old man aside and let the Spirit and God do the work they are perfectly capable of doing? “Why should they??” Because the Bible commission believers to “preach the gospel to all nations. “Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women??” Because God did not promise to write the gospel on the hearts and minds of men and women, nor did God promise to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women. God inspired His chosen prophets and apostles to write His word in Scripture, which internally claims to be His word, “the truth,” and the Bible commissioned believers to preach the gospel to all nations. The rest of your post is obviously based upon the two faulty premises above, so the rest of your post is rendered meaningless. Perhaps the head workers pay you a salary for your typically 2x2 ‘work’ here on the TMB – I am beginning to believe the evidence of that is strong and growing. Be that as it may, if you like to base your eternal destination on the varying concoctions of the heats and minds of men and women, which God said are continually "evil," that is your decision to make. I don't always see things the same as Jesse, but I think what you wrote above is uncalled for Gray. Jesse makes a valid point about the dangers of written creeds and statements of faith. So let me stre-e-e-tch out a couple of obvious inferences from within Jesse’s post for you and the other readers and perhaps even for Jesse; Jesse wrote; “Why should they?? Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women??” 1 – If there is no need for “they” (the preachers) to preach the gospel, then perhaps someone could tell us why the 2x2 workers call themselves “preachers.” What is the "work" of the 2x2 Workers. 2 – If God’s “doctrine” is written on the hearts and minds of men and women, why do the 2x2 Workers insist upon the necessity of “preachers” (i.e., themselves) for anyone to know the gospel. Please notice, neither #1 or #2 above are questions – they are both logical conclusions drawn from the inferrences within Jesse’s post. I see no occurrence of the words "written creeds and statements of faith" within Jesse's post or mine. So your use of these as a "point" is meaningless within the context of these two posts.
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Post by JO on Aug 29, 2009 21:27:34 GMT -5
So let me stre-e-e-tch out a couple of obvious inferences from within Jesse’s post for you and the other readers and perhaps even for Jesse; Jesse wrote; “Why should they?? Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women??” 1 – If there is no need for “they” (the preachers) to preach the gospel, then perhaps someone could tell us why the 2x2 workers call themselves “preachers.” What is the "work" of the 2x2 Workers. 2 – If God’s “doctrine” is written on the hearts and minds of men and women, why do the 2x2 Workers insist upon the necessity of “preachers” (i.e., themselves) for anyone to know the gospel. Please notice, neither #1 or #2 above are questions – they are both logical conclusions drawn from the inferrences within Jesse’s post. I see no occurrence of the words "written creeds and statements of faith" within Jesse's post or mine. So your use of these as a "point" is meaningless within the context of these two posts. Help me here.... Where in Jesse's post does he refer to there being no need for workers to preach the gospel?
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Post by gray on Aug 29, 2009 23:23:38 GMT -5
copy of copy Copy. “Why should they??” Because the Bible commission believers to “preach the gospel to all nations. “Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women??” Because God did not promise to write the gospel on the hearts and minds of men and women, nor did God promise to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women. God inspired His chosen prophets and apostles to write His word in Scripture, which internally claims to be His word, “the truth,” and the Bible commissioned believers to preach the gospel to all nations. The rest of your post is obviously based upon the two faulty premises above, so the rest of your post is rendered meaningless. Perhaps the head workers pay you a salary for your typically 2x2 ‘work’ here on the TMB – I am beginning to believe the evidence of that is strong and growing. Be that as it may, if you like to base your eternal destination on the varying concoctions of the heats and minds of men and women, which God said are continually "evil," that is your decision to make. So let me stre-e-e-tch out a couple of obvious inferences from within Jesse’s post for you and the other readers and perhaps even for Jesse; Jesse wrote; “Why should they?? Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women??” 1 – If there is no need for “they” (the preachers) to preach the gospel, then perhaps someone could tell us why the 2x2 workers call themselves “preachers.” What is the "work" of the 2x2 Workers. 2 – If God’s “doctrine” is written on the hearts and minds of men and women, why do the 2x2 Workers insist upon the necessity of “preachers” (i.e., themselves) for anyone to know the gospel. Please notice, neither #1 or #2 above are questions – they are both logical conclusions drawn from the inferrences within Jesse’s post. I see no occurrence of the words "written creeds and statements of faith" within Jesse's post or mine. So your use of these as a "point" is meaningless within the context of these two posts.
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Post by JO on Aug 29, 2009 23:30:12 GMT -5
"But so far no one fromn the 2x2 denomination has clearly stated to even its professing member WHAT the beliefs are." Why should they?? Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women?? Why is there so little faith that God will do what he said, and that the unity Jesus prayed about and God promised will be a reality when we men get our own carnal opinions and interpretations out of the way?? One cult characteristic is an authoritarian top down rigid defining of beliefs. That's part of how groups turn into cults. For the most part that does not happen in the friends and workers fellowship, there is an amazing amount of freedom allowed for individuals to come to their own conclusions - to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling". Think about it. People see it too, I usually get asked what keeps the various home meetings from going off on their own tangents with so little top down control? Well what does? Workers cracking whips? Workers ruthlessly hypnotizing the friends into mindless robotic zombies?? Not in the meetings I've been in. It's really weird that kind of freedom get criticised the way it does. The workers should write group doctrine and exercise more top down control. Bizarre. The moment some men start defining to other men what and how they should think problems arise - in a pretty serious way that is preempting the Spirit's work. Why?? Why not just step our old man aside and let the Spirit and God do the work they are perfectly capable of doing?
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Post by gray on Aug 30, 2009 2:01:01 GMT -5
So let me stre-e-e-tch out a couple of obvious inferences from within Jesse’s post for you and the other readers and perhaps even for Jesse; Jesse wrote; “Why should they?? Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women??” 1 – If there is no need for “they” (the preachers) to preach the gospel, then perhaps someone could tell us why the 2x2 workers call themselves “preachers.” What is the "work" of the 2x2 Workers. 2 – If God’s “doctrine” is written on the hearts and minds of men and women, why do the 2x2 Workers insist upon the necessity of “preachers” (i.e., themselves) for anyone to know the gospel. Please notice, neither #1 or #2 above are questions – they are both logical conclusions drawn from the inferrences within Jesse’s post. I see no occurrence of the words "written creeds and statements of faith" within Jesse's post or mine. So your use of these as a "point" is meaningless within the context of these two posts. Help me here.... Where in Jesse's post does he refer to there being no need for workers to preach the gospel? "“Why should they?? Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women??”"
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Post by JO on Aug 30, 2009 4:39:21 GMT -5
Help me here.... Where in Jesse's post does he refer to there being no need for workers to preach the gospel? "“Why should they?? Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women??”" What do you think the following scripture means? Jer 31: 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, " declares the LORD. "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. Heb 8:7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. Heb 10:16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 30, 2009 8:52:13 GMT -5
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 30, 2009 9:44:14 GMT -5
Really? Interview a worker about their doctrines and beliefs?ah hhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa (Snip.) Before you laugh too heartily, could you give a cogent articulation of the doctrines and beliefs you have? Let us begin with the nature of God and Scripture?
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 30, 2009 11:24:27 GMT -5
I've already laughed heartily. Brad
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Post by gray on Aug 30, 2009 12:03:17 GMT -5
Jesse wrote; “Why should they?? Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women??” gray already wrote; ““Why should they??” Because the Bible commission believers to “preach the gospel to all nations. “Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women??” Because God did not promise to write the gospel on the hearts and minds of men and women, nor did God promise to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women. God inspired His chosen prophets and apostles to write His word in Scripture, which internally claims to be His word, “the truth,” and the Bible commissioned believers to preach the gospel to all nations.” And, Jesse wrote; “Why should they?? Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women??” 1 – If there is no need for “they” (the preachers) to preach the gospel, then perhaps someone could tell us why the 2x2 workers call themselves “preachers.” What is the "work" of the 2x2 Workers. 2 – If God’s “doctrine” is written on the hearts and minds of men and women, why do the 2x2 Workers insist upon the necessity of “preachers” (i.e., themselves) for anyone to know the gospel. Your “point” was very clear and easy for me to understand it, and I already replied to it several times.
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Post by gray on Aug 30, 2009 12:06:12 GMT -5
"“Why should they?? Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women??”" What do you think the following scripture means? Jer 31: 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, " declares the LORD. "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. Heb 8:7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. Heb 10:16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." Thanks for quoting Scripture. Perhaps you will tell us what that Scripture says that relates to Jesse's words.
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 30, 2009 12:25:03 GMT -5
Were there any 'red flag's that you noticed? I saw a couple of rough spots, but nothing that made me want to tear my shirt to bits. You mean in the article? I didn't read it to try to determine egregious errors, just skimmed it well enough to see that there was nothing balanced about it and that most of it sounded like it came direct from an ex......which I suppose it did really. I would guess that this is because any exes that were interviewed were much more forthcoming than any of the F & W!! E
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 30, 2009 12:30:46 GMT -5
"But so far no one fromn the 2x2 denomination has clearly stated to even its professing member WHAT the beliefs are." Why should they?? Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women?? Why is there so little faith that God will do what he said, and that the unity Jesus prayed about and God promised will be a reality when we men get our own carnal opinions and interpretations out of the way?? One cult characteristic is an authoritarian top down rigid defining of beliefs. That's part of how groups turn into cults. For the most part that does not happen in the friends and workers fellowship, there is an amazing amount of freedom allowed for individuals to come to their own conclusions - to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling". Think about it. People see it too, I usually get asked what keeps the various home meetings from going off on their own tangents with so little top down control? Well what does? Workers cracking whips? Workers ruthlessly hypnotizing the friends into mindless robotic zombies?? Not in the meetings I've been in. It's really weird that kind of freedom get criticised the way it does. The workers should write group doctrine and exercise more top down control. Bizarre. The moment some men start defining to other men what and how they should think problems arise - in a pretty serious way that is preempting the Spirit's work. Why?? Why not just step our old man aside and let the Spirit and God do the work they are perfectly capable of doing? Ah! Yes! Except the part that says they are the true way (and exclusive) because of the "workers without a home and the fellowship meetings in the home". There is your core, top-down belief that makes this group cultish. After that is clear, the rest of the doctrines can just be spoken directly from God to the hearts of men and women. E
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 30, 2009 12:47:56 GMT -5
"“Why should they?? Why should that have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women??”" What do you think the following scripture means? Jer 31: 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, " declares the LORD. "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. Heb 8:7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. Heb 10:16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." This has not yet been accomplished with individuals today. That is the whole point being made. If this was a completed work, God would not need preachers! Jer. 31:34 goes on to say, "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour and every man his brother.....etc." We are still teaching and learning with each other, so obviously the guidance in our hearts and minds is not completed. We obviously still need preachers and others to teach us, and we still need to teach others! So, for me, the argument that the workers shouldn't have their doctrinal beliefs written down because we get that directly from God is incorrect! E
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Post by gray on Aug 30, 2009 13:07:30 GMT -5
It looks like this thread needs to go back even further and recapture the CONTEXT of Jesse’s reply and my several replies to it. So here is the context,
Jesse wrote “"But so far no one from the 2x2 denomination has clearly stated to even its professing member WHAT the beliefs are." (quoting gray)
Why should they?? Why should that, have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women?? …….”
My replies are already repeated often enough for all to see, now brought back into the context in which they were written.
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Post by gray on Aug 30, 2009 14:01:11 GMT -5
In the greater context of this thread, while the Plain Truth article does not speak directly to the historical trend of 2x2ism to pay little attention to doctrines, it does speak to those teachings that can be called doctrines that are ambiguously taught by the workers historically. And CRI’s statement regarding 2x2ism, DC690, does speak to that tendency directly.
Beginning with Jesse_Lackman’s post quoted in my replies, as well as another post that apparently intends to support that tendency via quoted Scripture, it is demonstrated on this thread that the 2x2s are pleased to gather to themselves teachers who say what their itching ears want to hear in place of doctrines the Bible clearly teaches "as of first importance." (1 Cor. 15; 1-8).
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Post by gray on Aug 30, 2009 15:53:45 GMT -5
The plain Truth article states, “Claiming to be the only true church, Irvine and Cooney taught a strange, allegorical approach to the Bible which allowed them to make anything they wanted of it. The two began an approach to interpretation of Scripture which continues among the No-Names to this day, applying entirely new definitions to familiar words, ignoring context or translation, thereby allowing them to use the Bible to support a religion created out of whole cloth by its founders. For example, “leaders” and “authority” in Hebrews 13:17 refer to Workers; therefore, they teach, this is proof one must obey the Workers without question.”
This very type of use of Scripture appears on this thread.
The Plain Truth article states, “But, what appears to be simplicity and devotion to religious teachings is, in fact, an iron-fisted system of domination, subjugation and abuse, with just enough Bible thrown in to give it an “old-time religion” flavor, which may seem to legitimize their authoritarian doctrine. And though the cult with no name hasn't yet hit the headlines with a major meltdown, it's probably just a matter of time.”
And again this very thread demonstrates the “just enough Bible thrown in” usage of Scripture where the context of quoted Scripture is ignored, and just Scripture containing ‘key words’ to the intended ‘meaning’ of its use on this thread are quoted – of course with the rhetorical question, ‘What do you think this means?’ thrown in for ‘good measure.’
I contend, ask your workers that question and demand that THEY teach what the Bible says in its context - unless of course you like hearing this type of application of only a scattered array of particular verses that contain specific 'key words' that your ears want to hear bearing the 'meanings' that you want to apply to those 'key words.'
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 30, 2009 16:20:25 GMT -5
I contend, ask your workers that question and demand that THEY teach what the Bible says in its context - unless of course you like hearing this type of application of only a scattered array of particular verses that contain specific 'key words' that your ears want to hear bearing the 'meanings' that you want to apply to those 'key words.' Gray, how well does it go when you demand people think/act, the way you think they should?? Think about it. Men teaching for doctrine the commandments of men in a totalitarian and authoritarian way is what Jesus came to free men from and yet the exact same type of religious slavery happened again during the Dark Ages. America was born when the shackles of totalitarian religion were thrown off.
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Post by ilylo on Aug 30, 2009 16:45:47 GMT -5
how well does it go when you demand people think/act, the way you think they should?? Think about it. Buns & dresses. Think about it.
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Post by gray on Aug 30, 2009 17:08:38 GMT -5
I contend, ask your workers that question and demand that THEY teach what the Bible says in its context - unless of course you like hearing this type of application of only a scattered array of particular verses that contain specific 'key words' that your ears want to hear bearing the 'meanings' that you want to apply to those 'key words.' Gray, how well does it go when you demand people think/act, the way you think they should?? Think about it. Men teaching for doctrine the commandments of men in a totalitarian and authoritarian way is what Jesus came to free men from and yet the exact same type of religious slavery happened again during the Dark Ages. America was born when the shackles of totalitarian religion were thrown off. I won't bother repeating what I just wrote. You are of course completely in charge of what you will choose as your teacher. And it should be clear to you that I also have that freedom of choice. If the preachers are not teaching anything at all - in fact if the preachers are not teaching from Scripture and that in context, I choose to leave them 'unemployed' (without any support from me). And that is what drove me out of the Workers' church years ago. It goes very well with the preachers that I have demanded teach Scripture in context because they recognize that my demand for them to do so is right out of the Bible - which demands that they 'teach no other doctrine' (paraphrased). Some of those preachers bcame and remain close friends and we remain loving brothers in the Lord after many years. By the way, God is very "totalitarian." And God's word is also very "totalitarian." And God the Son is very "totalitarian." And God the Holy Spirit id very "totalitarian. And they are my Lord, My God and the "totalitarian" ruler of the church. So if you don't like that, you are free (a God-given freedom) to reject such a "totalitarian" God. But you are not free to reject the Lord who bought you with His own blood and still call yourself a "Christian." To do so is to deceive yourself. I think you and I are about finished discussing this topic, but if you think you have something to add that you have not already said or implied, be my guest.
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Post by gray on Aug 31, 2009 0:57:06 GMT -5
Correction, the Plain Truth articale does indeed speak directly to the lack of interest of Workers in doctrine, as follows;
“The emphasis on doctrinal unity demanded by Irvine went away. As long as Workers continued to insist on blind devotion to their teachings as the one true way, it wasn't important if they actually understood or taught a pure doctrinal message.”
And on this thread is the following demonstration of that disinterest alive and well today within the 2x2 church, as follows;
Jesse_Lackman wrote “"But so far no one from the 2x2 denomination has clearly stated to even its professing member WHAT the beliefs are." (quoting gray)
Why should they?? Why should that, have to happen when God promised to write his doctrine on the hearts and minds of men and women?? …….”
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 31, 2009 6:14:50 GMT -5
Gray, how well does it go when you demand people think/act, the way you think they should?? Think about it. Men teaching for doctrine the commandments of men in a totalitarian and authoritarian way is what Jesus came to free men from and yet the exact same type of religious slavery happened again during the Dark Ages. America was born when the shackles of totalitarian religion were thrown off. I won't bother repeating what I just wrote. You are of course completely in charge of what you will choose as your teacher. And it should be clear to you that I also have that freedom of choice. If the preachers are not teaching anything at all - in fact if the preachers are not teaching from Scripture and that in context, I choose to leave them 'unemployed' (without any support from me). And that is what drove me out of the Workers' church years ago. It goes very well with the preachers that I have demanded teach Scripture in context because they recognize that my demand for them to do so is right out of the Bible - which demands that they 'teach no other doctrine' (paraphrased). Some of those preachers bcame and remain close friends and we remain loving brothers in the Lord after many years. By the way, God is very "totalitarian." And God's word is also very "totalitarian." And God the Son is very "totalitarian." And God the Holy Spirit id very "totalitarian. And they are my Lord, My God and the "totalitarian" ruler of the church. So if you don't like that, you are free (a God-given freedom) to reject such a "totalitarian" God. But you are not free to reject the Lord who bought you with His own blood and still call yourself a "Christian." To do so is to deceive yourself. I think you and I are about finished discussing this topic, but if you think you have something to add that you have not already said or implied, be my guest. I can agree with that, you're right, our conversation is over. ~ It's always interesting to run into people who know better what you think than you do, obviously it's kind of hard to have conversation with someone like that. So if anybody really cares what I said please read my full posts, and the thread I linked. Thanks. Jesse
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Post by gray on Aug 31, 2009 9:58:08 GMT -5
I won't bother repeating what I just wrote. You are of course completely in charge of what you will choose as your teacher. And it should be clear to you that I also have that freedom of choice. If the preachers are not teaching anything at all - in fact if the preachers are not teaching from Scripture and that in context, I choose to leave them 'unemployed' (without any support from me). And that is what drove me out of the Workers' church years ago. It goes very well with the preachers that I have demanded teach Scripture in context because they recognize that my demand for them to do so is right out of the Bible - which demands that they 'teach no other doctrine' (paraphrased). Some of those preachers bcame and remain close friends and we remain loving brothers in the Lord after many years. By the way, God is very "totalitarian." And God's word is also very "totalitarian." And God the Son is very "totalitarian." And God the Holy Spirit id very "totalitarian. And they are my Lord, My God and the "totalitarian" ruler of the church. So if you don't like that, you are free (a God-given freedom) to reject such a "totalitarian" God. But you are not free to reject the Lord who bought you with His own blood and still call yourself a "Christian." To do so is to deceive yourself. I think you and I are about finished discussing this topic, but if you think you have something to add that you have not already said or implied, be my guest. I can agree with that, you're right, our conversation is over. ~ It's always interesting to run into people who know better what you think than you do, obviously it's kind of hard to have conversation with someone like that. So if anybody really cares what I said please read my full posts, and the thread I linked. Thanks. Jesse Thank you. Some people on this planet evidently do know Scripture better than you. jesusonly, for one example, who did quote Scripture in an attempt to vindicate your position on your behalf. It is rather difficult to discuss anything when one person in the discussion refers to God's word as the authority and the other appeals to the minds of men and women only - it's kind of like shouting across the Grand Canyon at each other. I heartily agree with you that others read your entire posts. In fact I recommend that they just scan mine, if not ignore mine, while paying close attention to your complete posts because your posts demonstrate the statements made in the Plain Truth article. And your posts will therefore be of more interest to any objective study of present-day 2x2ism.
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Post by ronhall on Aug 31, 2009 10:11:59 GMT -5
If I've got this right, Gray would demand all doctrine to be written out on paper, whereas Jesse is satisfied with just the Bible basics on paper but with the day-to-day specifics being written on his heart as he navigates through life's twists and turns.
Seems like one likes to travel with an old Atlas book and the other is using a GPS!
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Post by gray on Aug 31, 2009 11:00:30 GMT -5
If I've got this right, Gray would demand all doctrine to be written out on paper, whereas Jesse is satisfied with just the Bible basics on paper but with the day-to-day specifics being written on his heart as he navigates through life's twists and turns. Seems like one likes to travel with an old Atlas book and the other is using a GPS! This is an interesting analogy, given the fact that few "GPSs" show anything that is at odds with the "old Atlas book." Last time I looked at my GPS it showed exactly what was in the old Atlas, but in much more focused detail. And it sure is nice to see Jesse's "Bible basics" written on this thread (paper) -- because 2x2s have traditionally and intentionally avoided clearly publishing their beliefs ANYWHERE.
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