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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 16, 2009 22:23:07 GMT -5
Bert, on your website you make the following statement: "The Catholics declare themselves the “True Church” because of an “unbroken line of succession” from the “first Pope,” the Apostle Peter. However, even the earliest post-apostolic leaders (such as Polycarp) showed a shift in spiritual tenor in their writings. Within a few centuries the broad church had become unrecognizable as it usurped Jewish laws and pagan customs, whilst forcibly converting or killing these people (Chrysostom War)"home.iprimus.com.au/pruephillip/#UnbrokenSuccessionAre there any revisions you'd like to make to this statement before I engage it?
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Post by Rob O on Aug 16, 2009 22:28:45 GMT -5
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Post by freespirit on Aug 16, 2009 22:35:46 GMT -5
Can I have some, Rob?
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Post by kencoolidge on Aug 16, 2009 23:04:22 GMT -5
Rob You are not sharing. Will this be long show?. Perhaps we should get our own?
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Post by Rob O on Aug 16, 2009 23:20:25 GMT -5
No. Go get your own. Do you have any idea how long I stood in line and suffered the bad breath and noxious BO of the unwashed masses? This is surely going to be a cracker of a show and I need my whole bucket to get me through!
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Aug 17, 2009 6:55:03 GMT -5
Looks like berts having timeout
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2009 7:07:28 GMT -5
Hi Clay. I am not happy to bash Catholics. I happen to like Catholics and sometimes say that we will know when Western civilization is finished when the Catholic Church is finished. I have been reading of Erasmus, and the Lutheran violence towards Catholics which so repelled him.
But this "showed a shift in spiritual tenor in their writings."
You SHOULD be able to tell something of a church by its pronouncements. Not just the doctrine, but its very language.
Try Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
These statements are gems of brevity, they are life, they are still cultural statements after 2000 years.
Now try this about the Trinity (and lets ignore whether the Trinity is fact or belief)
The doctrine of the Trinity is this - "We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the persons; nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. "But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one: the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, so is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. "The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. "And yet there are not three eternals, but one eternal. Also there are not three incomprehensibles, not three uncreated: but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. "So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. "So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods: but one God. "So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords but one Lord. "For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord; so we are forbidden by the Catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords. "The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone: not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. "So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons: one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. "And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. "HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
This is bombast, pomp, intellectual arrogance. The tenor shows you this is NOT the same as Paul, Peter and John wrote. They are different churches IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2009 7:13:10 GMT -5
Rob. I have to admit, that is the funniest thing I have seen on the internet in months. I couldn't stop laughing. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by kencoolidge on Aug 17, 2009 8:15:14 GMT -5
Another of Berts edifying posts I am not happy to bash Catholics
I did enjoy a few words concerning the beatitudes These statements are gems of brevity, they are life
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Post by Rob O on Aug 17, 2009 8:22:59 GMT -5
Rob. I have to admit, that is the funniest thing I have seen on the internet in months. I couldn't stop laughing. ;D ;D ;D ;D Then you need to google stuff other than Jenna Jameson.
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 17, 2009 12:36:50 GMT -5
This is bombast, pomp, intellectual arrogance. The tenor shows you this is NOT the same as Paul, Peter and John wrote. They are different churches IMO. Bert, I realize that this must be difficult to comprehend, but this is what it looks like for a church to make an actual formal statement of belief. I highly recommend it. It is a pity that, to your 2x2 eyes, a church making a foundational statement regarding the necessity of belief in the Trinity looks like "bombastic intellectual arrogance". How do you decide what equals intellectual arrogance, anyway? What you decide to believe is acceptable but what other people decide based on the same reading of Scripture that doesn't happen to match up with you is intellectual arrogance? I call that intellectual dishonesty.
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 17, 2009 12:40:33 GMT -5
Hold the popcorn for a little while, folks.
My Vatican Assassin Fighter Group has assembled again for some special ops missions - we have to go oppress some Protestants in Belgium, sacrifice some goats at by the light of the moon, and then go worship a potato chip that looks like the Virgin Mary.
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Post by Rob Sargison on Aug 17, 2009 14:44:48 GMT -5
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God
These statements are true, brief & beautiful.
The doctrine of the Trinity is this - "We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the persons; nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. "But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one: the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, so is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. "The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. "And yet there are not three eternals, but one eternal. Also there are not three incomprehensibles, not three uncreated: but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. "So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. "So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods: but one God. "So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords but one Lord. "For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord; so we are forbidden by the Catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords. "The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone: not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. "So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons: one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. "And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. "HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
These are also true.......... I'd imagine. But to the average Joe Bloggs in the street - it is gobbledegook. Tho no doubt a brave & honest attempt the get their heads around & express something rather complex prior to Strunk & White & Robert Hartwell Fiske.
I'll get more popcorn. If anyones bringing drinks I'll have a lager.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 17, 2009 15:02:36 GMT -5
Bravo! You cut straight through to the heart of the matter. Man sure has a way of making a mess of simple things doesn't he Rob? And the real sad thing is the greater the mess, the more twisted the maze of circumlocution, the more profound man thinks it is. Think about all the years totalitarian religious power kept the common people ignorant and without the Bible, to the point of possession of a bible put "laity" in peril of the rack, dungeon and stake. How were they to even know what was gobbledgook? Which was exactly where totalitarian religious power wanted them...
"Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. "
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2009 20:06:19 GMT -5
Calling the RCC's position on the Trinity "a mess" is sure to make you a target of Clay's Vatican Assassin Fighter Group. Make sure you put on your breastplate of faith and love against the hordes. No popcorn for you, you're in it now.
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Post by sharon on Aug 17, 2009 21:02:18 GMT -5
I wonder what the biblical scholars will come up with after the average masses figure this trinity doctrine out as it is written on this thread? I know there has to be some very interesting and diverse ways of expressing something that isn't so tangible! Just wondering, is all!
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 17, 2009 22:01:27 GMT -5
Calling the RCC's position on the Trinity "a mess" is sure to make you a target of Clay's Vatican Assassin Fighter Group. Make sure you put on your breastplate of faith and love against the hordes. No popcorn for you, you're in it now. "HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY." What's he gonna do take me to the -->> Inquisition Cathedral's torture rooms << until I agree? Horrifying to consider the pagan and snuff pornography side of human sacrifice in religious torture, especially that aimed towards -->> women <<.
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 18, 2009 9:19:14 GMT -5
Calling the RCC's position on the Trinity "a mess" is sure to make you a target of Clay's Vatican Assassin Fighter Group. Make sure you put on your breastplate of faith and love against the hordes. No popcorn for you, you're in it now. "HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY." What's he gonna do take me to the -->> Inquisition Cathedral's torture rooms << until I agree? Horrifying to consider the pagan and snuff pornography side of human sacrifice in religious torture, especially that aimed towards -->> women <<. Mr. Lackman, If you have the intellectual honesty to consider both sides of the story, I encourage you to read the following article linked below. I don't deny abuses have occurred, but I find your post overly dramatic and potentially misleading. www.catholicleague.org/research/inquisition.html
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 18, 2009 9:28:34 GMT -5
Bravo! You cut straight through to the heart of the matter. Man sure has a way of making a mess of simple things doesn't he Rob? And the real sad thing is the greater the mess, the more twisted the maze of circumlocution, the more profound man thinks it is. Think about all the years totalitarian religious power kept the common people ignorant and without the Bible, to the point of possession of a bible put "laity" in peril of the rack, dungeon and stake. How were they to even know what was gobbledgook? Which was exactly where totalitarian religious power wanted them... Mr. Lackman, Your statements about the Catholic Church trying to keep the bible from the general public suggest a general ignorance of the state of literacy and ability to mass-produce bibles and the valid concern about bad scriptural translations in medieval Europe. For example, you may not be aware that there were at least 7 or 8 translations of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate version before Martin Luther came along. www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/bible.htm
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 18, 2009 14:20:34 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 18, 2009 15:23:00 GMT -5
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.
And yet there are not three eternals, but one eternal.
Also there are not three incomprehensibles, not three uncreated: but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible.
...
HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY Think about the logical short circuit on display here, use the word incomprehensible, then lay out the correct way to comprehend what's been defined as incomprehensible.
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Post by lin on Aug 18, 2009 19:22:20 GMT -5
THE DARK AGES
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 19, 2009 0:08:34 GMT -5
Mr. Randall, I've not referred specifically to the Catholic Church but to totalitarian religious power in general. My posts are not about blaming the Catholic Church but just to recognise what happened, happened, and happened because of authoritirian, totalitarian, religious power. I'm not really even paying attention to the denominations involved because the denominations involved are not the core problem, the nature of Man is. Since every link you provided has indeed referred specifically to the Catholic Church, you'll understand if I doubt the veracity of your statement. There's no need for you to pretend otherwise on my account, though. Your opinion is what it is. With respect to the weblinks you chose to share regarding the Catholic Church limiting access to the bible, I will point out a few things. First, the Council of Toulouse was a synod dealing with a local problem of the Albigenses and Waldenses. It was not an ecumenical council binding responsbility on the Church worldwide. Second, you shouldn't assume that the general public had the same level of education and literacy that exists today. Third, even the famous canon 14 so often quoted allowed Catholics access to a book containing the Psalms (called the Psalter) in addition to a book containing readings from Scripture, quotes from Church fathers and prayers (called the Breviary).
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Post by Rob O on Aug 19, 2009 0:34:09 GMT -5
But there wasn't really such a thing as the dark ages. It's a received myth.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2009 6:53:43 GMT -5
Some historical revisionists are saying there wasn't a dark age. I suspect both side of the story have elements of truth to them. Certainly a lot of Roman engineering and Grecian science migrated out of Europe.
nb another "dark age" was considered to the the fall of Minoa, prior to the rise of Greece.
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Post by sharon on Aug 19, 2009 7:20:47 GMT -5
[quote "HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY." I think if you would set the above phrase out alone and repeat it alone that soon you would have people saying this is what was said just like we say the workers have said that only through them can anyone be saved. Now I'm not saying they didn't say that....but I think sometimes whoever said this first perhaps had a whole different context or light on that but when it was repeated by other workers it soon became their mantra that ONLY through THEM could one be saved. Regarding both statements, IMO they both are arrogant whether found in the context they were first spoken...it reeks of "man's" commandments made doctrine and that won't get anyone saved. "Strait is the gate and narrow is the way that leadeth to life eternal." Jesus was talking ABOUT HIMSELF here, not any membership affiliation, nor church affiliation, nor sect of religion, nor where fellowship came together...HE WAS TALKING ABOUT HIMSELF BEING THE STRAIT GATE AND BEING THE NARROW WAY. Only through Jesus(belief on Him) can any of us be saved....that's as simple as it can be put and no man needs to make it any more difficult, though we all try....moi included.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2009 7:31:33 GMT -5
Clay, do you recall Paul, John, James, Jude and Peter's warnings about apostates who left the church?
Well I suspect that Polycarp (ca. 69 – ca. 155) was one of these apostates. All we know of that first church was from its own letters. When that generation ended many sought the mantle of its authority.
So Polycarp might have been a student of John. But we have no direction from John as to whether Polycarp kept the faith.
If you read the letters of the disciples and Paul you will note each had a special message, written in an individual style. The style wasn't important - it was the message. They didn't imitate each other. And why should they?
Now try reading the Mormon's Pearl of Great Price. Here is a New World Jesus repeating himself, as if he was so enchanted by the few words of His which were recorded, that He kept saying them. He had nothing new or profound to say, despite all the books in the world not being able to contain Him.
Ditto for Polycarp. You will note his sermon is largely a compendium of profound sayings of those he claimed to draw authority from. His real message is, IMO, is that I am one of them too.
The little which is original to Polycarp seems utterly out of place with its flowery and pointless language, ie "those men encircled in saintly bonds which are the diadems of them that be truly chosen of God and our Lord"
And... you will find the first traces of saint worship in Polycarp's glorying of Paul (in bold.)
Below is Polycarp's letter. I originally sought to bold all text which he appropriated from the epistles and Gospels, but this was taking a long time. In any case, I suggest 90% or more would have been marked. I might do it in a future web site.
What happened to that foundation church? IMO there are only two possibilities. It vanished from historical records, or it simply vanished - period. All those famous figures which came after it bear little resemblance to it.
Here is Polycarp - without authorship, attribution, references or even quotes.
Polycarp
THE EPISTLE OF POLYCARP Translated by J.B. Lightfoot.
Polycarp prologue:1 Polycarp and the presbyters that are with him unto the Church of God which sojourneth at Philippi; mercy unto you and peace from God Almighty and Jesus Christ our Savior be multiplied.
Polycarp 1:1 I rejoiced with you greatly in our Lord Jesus Christ, for that ye received the followers of the true Love and escorted them on their way, as befitted you--those men encircled in saintly bonds which are the diadems of them that be truly chosen of God and our Lord;
Polycarp 1:2 and that the steadfast root of your faith which was famed from primitive times abideth until now and beareth fruit unto our Lord Jesus Christ, who endured to face even death for our sins, whom God raised, having loosed the pangs of Hades; on whom,
Polycarp 1:3 though ye saw Him not, ye believe with joy unutterable and full of glory; unto which joy many desire to enter in; forasmuch as ye know that it is by grace ye are saved, not of works, but by the will of God through Jesus Christ.
Polycarp 2:1 Wherefore gird up your loins and serve God in fear and truth, forsaking the vain and empty talking and the error of the many, for that ye have believed on Him that raised our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead and gave unto him glory and a throne on His right hand; unto whom all things were made subject that are in heaven and that are on the earth; to whom every creature that hath breath doeth service; who cometh as judge of quick and dead; whose blood God will require of them that are disobedient unto Him.
Polycarp 2:2 Now He that raised Him from the dead will raise us also; if we do His will and walk in His commandments and love the things which He loved, abstaining from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of money, evil speaking, false witness; not rendering evil for evil or railing for railing or blow for blow or cursing for cursing;
Polycarp 2:3 but remembering the words which the Lord spake, as He taught; Judge not that ye be not judged. Forgive, and it shall be forgiven to you. Have mercy that ye may receive mercy. With what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again; and again Blessed are the poor and they that are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of God.
Polycarp 3:1 These things, brethren, I write unto you concerning righteousness, not because I laid this charge upon myself, but because ye invited me.
Polycarp 3:2 For neither am I, nor is any other like unto me, able to follow the wisdom of the blessed and glorious Paul, who when he came among you taught face to face with the men of that day the word which concerneth truth carefully and surely; who also, when he was absent, wrote a letter unto you, into the which if ye look diligently, ye shall be able to be builded up unto the faith given to you,
Polycarp 3:3 which is the mother of us all, while hope followeth after and love goeth before--love toward God and Christ and toward our neighbor. For if any man be occupied with these, he hath fulfilled the commandment of righteousness; for he that hath love is far from all sin.
Polycarp 4:1 But the love of money is the beginning of all troubles. Knowing therefore that we brought nothing into the world neither can we carry anything out, let us arm ourselves with the armor of righteousness, and let us teach ourselves first to walk in the commandment of the Lord;
Polycarp 4:2 and then our wives also, to walk in the faith that hath been given unto them and in love and purity, cherishing their own husbands in all truth and loving all men equally in all chastity, and to train their children in the training of the fear of God.
Polycarp 4:3 Our widows must be sober-minded as touching the faith of the Lord, making intercession without ceasing for all men, abstaining from all calumny, evil speaking, false witness, love of money, and every evil thing, knowing that they are God's altar, and that all sacrifices are carefully inspected, and nothing escapeth Him either of their thoughts or intents or any of the secret things of the heart.
Polycarp 5:1 Knowing then that God is not mocked, we ought to walk worthily of His commandment and His glory.
Polycarp 5:2 In like manner deacons should be blameless in the presence of His righteousness, as deacons of God and Christ and not of men; not calumniators, not double-tongued, not lovers of money, temperate in all things, compassionate, diligent, walking according to the truth of the Lord who became a minister (deacon) of all. For if we be well pleasing unto Him in this present world, we shall receive the future world also, according as He promised us to raise us from the dead, and that if we conduct ourselves worthily of Him we shall also reign with Him, if indeed we have faith.
Polycarp 5:3 In like manner also the younger men must be blameless in all things, caring for purity before everything and curbing themselves from every evil. For it is a good thing to refrain from lusts in the world, for every lust warreth against the Spirit, and neither ladymongers nor effeminate persons nor defilers of themselves with men shall inherit the kingdom of God, neither they that do untoward things. Wherefore it is right to abstain from all these things, submitting yourselves to the presbyters and deacons as to God and Christ. The virgins must walk in a blameless and pure conscience.
Polycarp 6:1 And the presbyters also must be compassionate, merciful towards all men, turning back the sheep that are gone astray, visiting all the infirm, not neglecting a widow or an orphan or a poor man: but providing always for that which is honorable in the sight of God and of men, abstaining from all anger, respect of persons, unrighteous judgment, being far from all love of money, not quick to believe anything against any man, not hasty in judgment, knowing that we all are debtors of sin.
Polycarp 6:2 If then we entreat the Lord that He would forgive us, we also ought to forgive: for we are before the eyes of our Lord and God, and we must all stand at the judgment-seat of Christ, and each man must give an account of himself.
Polycarp 6:3 Let us therefore so serve Him with fear and all reverence, as He himself gave commandment and the Apostles who preached the Gospel to us and the prophets who proclaimed beforehand the coming of our Lord; being zealous as touching that which is good, abstaining from offenses and from the false brethren and from them that bear the name of the Lord in hypocrisy, who lead foolish men astray.
Polycarp 7:1 For every one who shall not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is antichrist: and whosoever shall not confess the testimony of the Cross, is of the devil; and whosoever shall pervert the oracles of the Lord to his own lusts and say that there is neither resurrection nor judgment, that man is the firstborn of Satan.
Polycarp 7:2 Wherefore let us forsake the vain doing of the many and their false teachings, and turn unto the word which was delivered unto us from the beginning, being sober unto prayer and constant in fastings, entreating the all-seeing God with supplications that He bring us not into temptation, according as the Lord said, The Spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak.
Polycarp 8:1 Let us therefore without ceasing hold fast by our hope and by the earnest of our righteousness, which is Jesus Christ who took up our sins in His own body upon the tree, who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth, but for our sakes He endured all things, that we might live in Him.
Polycarp 8:2 Let us therefore become imitators of His endurance; and if we should suffer for His name's sake, let us glorify Him. For He gave this example to us in His own person, and we believed this.
Polycarp 9:1 I exhort you all therefore to be obedient unto the word of righteousness and to practice all endurance, which also ye saw with your own eyes in the blessed Ignatius and Zosimus and Rufus, yea and in others also who came from among yourselves, as well as in Paul himself and the rest of the Apostles;
Polycarp 9:2 being persuaded that all these ran not in vain but in faith and righteousness, and that they are in their due place in the presence of the Lord, with whom also they suffered. For they loved not the present world, but Him that died for our sakes and was raised by God for us.
Polycarp 10:1 Stand fast therefore in these things and follow the example of the Lord, being firm in the faith and immovable, in love of the brotherhood kindly affectioned one to another, partners with the truth, forestalling one another in the gentleness of the Lord, despising no man.
Polycarp 10:2 When ye are able to do good, defer it not, for Pitifulness delivereth from death. Be ye all subject one to another, having your conversation unblamable among the gentiles, that your good works both ye may receive praise and the Lord may not be blasphemed in you.
Polycarp 10:3 But woe to him through whom the name of the Lord be blasphemed. Therefore teach all men soberness, in which ye yourselves also walk.
Polycarp 11:1 I was exceedingly grieved for Valens, who aforetime was a presbyter among you, because he is so ignorant of the office which was given unto him. I warn you therefore that ye refrain from covetousness, and that ye be pure and truthful. Refrain from all evil.
Polycarp 11:2 But he who cannot govern himself in these things, how doth he enjoin this upon another? If a man refrain not from covetousness, he shall be defiled by idolatry, and shall be judged as one of the Gentiles who know not the judgment of the Lord, Nay, know we not, that the saints shall judge the world, as Paul teacheth?
Polycarp 11:3 But I have not found any such thing in you, neither have heard thereof, among whom the blessed Paul labored, who were his letters in the beginning. For he boasteth of you in all those churches which alone at that time knew God; for we knew Him not as yet.
Polycarp 11:4 Therefore I am exceedingly grieved for him and for his wife, unto whom may the Lord grant true repentance. Be ye therefore yourselves also sober herein, and hold not such as enemies but restore them as frail and erring members, that ye may save the whole body of you. For so doing, ye do edify one another.
Polycarp 12:1 For I am persuaded that ye are well trained in the sacred writings, and nothing is hidden from you. But to myself this is not granted. Only, as it is said in these scriptures, Be ye angry and sin not, and Let not the sun set on your wrath. Blessed is he that remembereth this; and I trust that this is in you.
Polycarp 12:2 Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High-priest Himself the [Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth, and in all gentleness and in all avoidance of wrath and in forbearance and long suffering and in patient endurance and in purity; and may He grant unto you a lot and portion among His saints, and to us with you, and to all that are under heaven, who shall believe on our Lord and God Jesus Christ and on His Father that raised him from the dead.
Polycarp 12:3 Pray for all the saints. Pray also for kings and powers and princes and for them that persecute and hate you and for the enemies of the cross, that your fruit may be manifest among all men, that ye may be perfect in Him.
Polycarp 13:1 Ye wrote to me, both ye yourselves and Ignatius, asking that if any one should go to Syria he might carry thither the letters from you. And this I will do, if I get a fit opportunity, either I myself, or he whom I shall send to be ambassador on your behalf also.
Polycarp 13:2 The letters of Ignatius which were sent to us by him, and others as many as we had by us, we send unto you, according as ye gave charge; the which are subjoined to this letter; from which ye will be able to gain great advantage. For they comprise faith and endurance and every kind of edification, which pertaineth unto our Lord. Moreover concerning Ignatius himself and those that were with him, if ye have any sure tidings, certify us.
Polycarp 14:1 I write these things to you by Crescens, whom I commended to you recently and now commend unto you: for he hath walked blamelessly with us; and I believe also with you in like manner. But ye shall have his sister commended, when she shall come to you. Fare ye well in the Lord Jesus Christ in grace, ye and all yours. Amen.
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 19, 2009 9:40:11 GMT -5
Bert,
I realize that, to you, anyone who's not in the 2x2 Fellowship is considered an apostate. Your attachment to this word on your website has rendered it basically a meaningless term now.
I also realize that your anti-Catholic biases tend to skew your reading of Polycarp and other early writers such that you automatically assume any reference to saintly or blessed people proves "saint worship".
Do not members of your own fellowship talk about 2x2 saints? Do you not agree that some people can be called blessed without rising to the level of worship?
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