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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Mar 5, 2009 22:12:45 GMT -5
ok, this topic has come up enough to draw my curiosity. All I've seen from "Dr. J" is an old thesis or something, maybe it turned into a book? Who's read this, and would it interest me?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2009 22:30:30 GMT -5
My opinion for what its worth? You should read it only if you like revisionist history, or plan to post quotes from it..
Cherie, don't you have a copy in your library that you could lend so none need try to find it to buy it?
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Post by Sharon on Mar 5, 2009 22:33:20 GMT -5
My opinion for what its worth? You should read it only if you like revisionist history, or plan to post quotes from it..
Cherie, don't you have a copy in your library that you could lend so none need try to find it to buy it? Some larger city libraries have it in the history section and some universities as well...Dr J is a well respected historian and writer of historical data according to some of the Canadian websites.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2009 22:51:22 GMT -5
Well, those websites obviously couldn't be wrong about this particular book, could they? From what I discovered through personal research, my opinion is that his book about the group contains enough creative accounts to discredit him in my mind's opinion as a scholar writing from historical facts and without bias.. People will believe what people will believe, including myself..
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 6, 2009 0:33:48 GMT -5
Sorry, but there isn't a copy in the Lending Library. If someone wants to donate one, we would be happy to receive it. THen there would be a copy that could be loaned out! I only have one copy of his book, and I don't loan out my "only" copies. However, many/most libraries will arrange to borrow requested books free of charge or for a nominal fee in their inter-library loan dept. Here's the details: By Dr. Cornelius J. Jaenen The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship. A documentary history of the early church and restorationist movements.(ISBN I-894508-48-3) Publisher: Legas Publishing, Ottawa, Toronto www.legaspublishing.com/www.legaspublishing.com/Catalogue/index.htm4 Wood Aster Bay, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2R 1B3 TEL: 613-562-5217; FAX: 613-562-5138 See "Nameless spiritual fellowship," Pages 518-end. Blurb on Legas Pub reads: Cornelius J. Jaenen, Ph.D., LL.D., FRSC, Professor Emeritus of History at the University of Ottawa, is presently Honorary Secretary of the Royal Society of Canada and member of the executive committee of the Research Centre for the Religious History of Canada, Saint Paul University. He was founding' president of the Canadian Ethnic Studies Association (1971-73), president of the French Colonial Historical Society (1986-88), and president of the Canadian Historical Association (1988-89). His publications cover an impressive range of historical issues and he is in great demand as a lecturer on the national andinternational circuit. This tripartite documentary collection introduces the salient characteristics of the structure, beliefs, practices, and challenges of the first century Christian church. It proceeds to illustrate the subsequent developments of these characteristics over the next ten centuries as Christianity acquired power and prestige. These developments can be interpreted either as an unrestrained institutional evolution or as a departure from the apostolic model based in good measure on invented tradition. A final section documents attempts within the mainstream and also in heretical movements, from at least the fourth century to the present, to retain, reconstitute, or restore the original Christian model. It is an invitation "to embark on an intellectual journey through a couple millennia of Christian history with an open mind and free spirit, unencumbered by any creedal or confessional predilection." (softcover, 556 pages) ISBN 1-894508-48-3 $39.95 US / $49.95 CDN ORDER
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Post by rjkee on Mar 6, 2009 3:57:24 GMT -5
In another thread, I posted the following regarding DR J's book:
3/4/09 at 20:29, CherieKropp wrote:
[Per Dr. J, the following account is not available at this time.] Footnote 219 PA-1-12, Account by Alfred Trotter to Edith Trotter, 28 July 1976: “He [John Long] it was who fired the first shot in a campaign which was destined to re-echo around the world. And he was present on many momentous occasions, went out in the work and sacrificed much in the days of his youth.” P.5 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In 2003 I wrote to Dr Jaenen as follows:
I have recently read some excerpts from your new book, The Apostles’ Doctrine and Fellowship, and noticed that you have referenced Alfred Trotter and Edith Trotter (page 522, number 219). You may be interested to know that Alfred’s second wife, Lily, was a relative of mine, and they attended the union meeting in my parents’ home. I had heard that Alfred wrote an account of the ‘early days’, but had assumed that it had been lost. Recently I spoke with his daughter, Edith. She was unaware of the account’s existence, and was very keen to see a copy. I too would like to read Alfred’s account. Please let me know where I can obtain a copy of this publication.
In his response he stated that he had been shown a copy by a worker from Europe but was not allowed to make a copy. He suggested that the original was held by a 2x2 family in Enniskillen, N. Ireland. The family he mentioned includes one current worker.
I believe that the Trotter account has great significance in that it was written by a member of the group while he was in good standing. As such, he would have no axe to grind and therefore his account is likely to be perceived in a positive light by current members of the 2x2 group.
Best regards
Robert
PS It strikes me as highly unusual that in a textbook, an academic would reference a document which is not either : 1. in the public domain or 2. available to the reader via the book's author.
Furthermore, it seems unusual that the apparently confidential nature of Alfie's account was not stated.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 6, 2009 11:54:35 GMT -5
There have been quite a few histories written like Dr. Cornelius J. Jaenen's, I posted a few pages from one pubished in 1879 -->>here<<. I wonder, does Dr. J reference that book, anyone know?
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Post by landdownunder on Mar 6, 2009 18:03:55 GMT -5
I suspect it's very revisionist but I've only read snippets. Anybody who has read it got a comment on this?
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Post by Sharon on Mar 6, 2009 20:08:49 GMT -5
I suspect it's very revisionist but I've only read snippets. Anybody who has read it got a comment on this? Would you please expound on what you mean by being "revisionist" and what other in comparison? Thank you.
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Post by landdownunder on Mar 6, 2009 22:23:26 GMT -5
Would you please expound on what you mean by being "revisionist" and what other in comparison? Thank you. G'day siwells, here's some web definitions of revisionist: - a Communist who tries to rewrite Marxism to justify a retreat from the revolutionary position;
- in fiction, revisionism is the retelling of a story or type of story with substantial alterations in character or environment, to "revise" the view shown in the original work. Unlike most usages of the term revisionism, this is not generally considered pejorative;
- revisionism - is usually a respectable intellectual attitude among historians – the “revision” of previously held theories in light of new information. However, in Holocaust studies it specifically refers to those who deny that the Holocaust ever happened, or that it is greatly exaggerated;
- revisionism - In theater history, an approach based on the belief that history is usually told from the viewpoint of a social, political, or cultural elite.
I am fascinated by what passes for intellectual endeavour in modern history departments. Once any history treatise goes beyond a dry presentation of verifiable facts, inevitably biases and perspectives become crucial and the 'science' involves interpretation. I suspect Dr J has put a lot of his biases and his interpretations into his book based around scant facts. I need someone here who has spent the time to objectively read and consider the good Dr's book, to throw some light on where he is coming from - what is Dr J's agenda and what was his motivation in spinning the yarns that he has done?
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 6, 2009 23:22:34 GMT -5
I believe Dr. J's book evolved after he and Kevin Daniel had lengthy written correspondence over the 3 widely distributed documents by Dr. J within the2x2 fellowship re early Christian history of itinerant ministers and home churches.
If you are sincere and REALLY want to understand where Dr. J is coming from--I suggest you start with Kevin Daniels book and read the interchanges, etc. there.
I have the 3 docs I could email to you...they're also reprinted in K. Daniels book, with KD's critique. If I recall correctly, in a nutshell, Dr. J realized he had made some errors in the earlier documents and he did not continue to hold to some of his earlier statements/beliefs and, wanting to set the record straight, he wrote his book. I believe he used to believe in a physical chain of apostolic succession of the workers back to Jesus, and that he changed his viewpoint because his book doesn't reflect that viewpoint.
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Post by landdownunder on Mar 7, 2009 0:43:03 GMT -5
Cherie, I am sincerely interested in the history of the church (as distinct from history of denominations) from the formative era of Acts, through Eusebius's accounts up to the 4th C, then the solid accounts of the reformation era, through the awakenings and revival era out of which the F&Ws evolved (very small player) up until now.
Even Eusebius, great historian that he was, clearly has his biases and we must try to filter the facts from those biases.
What I am trying to ascertain is whether Dr J and his book add anything worthwhile to the whole picture of church history.
(OK here's my biases on display. If I were to devote the next 10 years to compiling an encyclopedia on all that is known, including the various perspectives and interpretations, of the history of the church - true and false, wheat and tares - over the past 2000 years, the F&W would get a couple of paragraphs at most. There would be other slightly similar groups sprinkled throughout that period, but the bulk of church history involves very different forms than what Dr J's book is centred around. It would be an interesting project, incidentally)
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Post by landdownunder on Mar 7, 2009 0:47:17 GMT -5
I believe Dr. J's book evolved after he and Kevin Daniel had lengthy written correspondence over the 3 widely distributed documents within the2x2 fellowship re early Christian history of itinerant ministers and home churches. I have the 3 docs I could email to you...they're also reprinted in K. Daniels book, with KD's critique. Can you give maybe the titles of these 3 documents? Do you know their origins and/or authors? Who is Kevin Daniel, and what is his church affiliation and title of his book? Sorry for so many questions. Thanks!
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 7, 2009 8:56:17 GMT -5
The 3 documents are spoken/written by Dr. J. Ordering info for Kevin's book is thru R.I.S. at: workersect.org/2x206.htmlLike you, Kevin D. was avidly interested in the early church (not just 2x2s) and he disagreed with some of what the 3 docs contained. The F&Ws seemed to swallow wholesale (without questioning) what Dr. J wrote, since he was a university history professor and since his articles were widely promoted/distributed with the workers blessing. Kevin saw errors in them and went to put these errors in writing to refute the 3 docs; wound up confronting/consulting Dr. J and eventually KD put his findings and correspondence in book format in order to make them available to others. I cant tell you how many copies through the past 20 years that people have sent to me of these 3 docs! Many F&W (self included) had not ever heard the first thing about Christian or church history and these docs just sounded so plausible and wonderful (what did we know?) And we bot into them without a bit of research, and they "confirmed" to us the wondrous story we'd heard since birth and showed "glimpses" of the workers and church in the home in history all the way back to Jesus on the shores of Galilee. (Never mind that some of the ministers/churches mentioned baptized infants, and did all manner of other things the F&W eschewed!) The titles of the 3 articles are: Glimpses in History of Simple Christian People(5 typewritten pages) The Nature of the First Century Church (4 typewritten pages) A lecture by Dr. C. J. Jaenen, Winnipeg College, Canada NOTE: The above docs have written more scholarly and have numerous footnotes to Esebus, et al. And the shortest one I will copy here for you appears to have been written especially for the F&W: Following up the First-Century Christian ChurchBy the end of the first century, the original Christian community had been fragmented into rival sects which became denominations or religious movements. Nevertheless, a 'true seed' remained; throughout the Middle Ages there remained a faithful remnant with apparently an itinerant ministry of men and women; this apostolic faith spread geographically from the Eastern Roman Empire where it was most securely rooted into the Balkans, and by the Danube and northern Italian route into southern France and the Rhine Valley. From the Rhine Valley it spread into the Low Countries and by the 13th, 14th and 15th centuries it was well into the British Isles, (as we call them today.) The last historical remnants of these 'early believers' seem to have centred on Ireland, Scotland and parts of rural England. There had been no 'open ministry' probably for some centuries or at least a century when the nineteenth-century revival erupted in Ireland (Eire, the southern Catholic part.) In a sense "Ireland is the mother of us all" in the twentieth century. A number of tracts and pamphlets directed against us have identified 'William Weir Ervine' as the 'founder' of our faith in Nenegh (Tipperary county) in October 1897. The fact is that William Irvine was in contact with people who believed in the 'apostolic faith,' notably the Gill family in England, before that time. The 'open ministry' did begin in these parts and spread throughout the 'remnant country' very rapidly, so that within the first few years of the 20th century there were scores and scores of young men and women (and some not so young) who went into the revived open ministry. Willie Gill went into the ministry in 1900, I believe. George Walker (who is still alive, of course - he preached at our con¬ventions last year) went into the work in 1899... the same year as John Kelly, John Long, T. M. Turner and Alex Givan. It was no accident that the Truth should have revived its open ministry in the part of the world it did, when one considers the long historic journey of 'apostolic faith and practice' through the centuries over the European continent towards the British Isles - it also went eastwards and southwards, of course, and there are indications that the Truth also lived on in its original forms in India, China, East Africa for centuries . . . The first great outpouring following Pentecost spread along the framework of the great world empire of the day, the Roman Empire (a bilingual Latin/Greek, and multicultural one,) and the latter rain seems to have spread over the great world empire of latter times, the British Empire, to eventually spread beyond it to peoples of every tongue and nation. It would seem that as time progresses, the Gospel will more and more be received in 'third-world nations,' under new forms of government and in very different cultural and social conditions to what we know. I would take the signs of Vietnam, Greece, etc., to be very important ones for the future development of the spread of the Gospel. by Cornelius Jaenen
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 7, 2009 10:24:33 GMT -5
Some NOTABLE OMISSIONS in Dr. J's book: It contains no references to John Long's Journal or The Secret Sect by Doug & Helen Parker (yet he referenced Patricia Roberts book more than once) or Impartial Reporter newspaper articles (Enniskillen N Ire).[/b] Read at: www.tellingthetruth.info/brg_guide/newsprold.phpand his book gives an incorrect quote here: 220 PA-11-7, Copy of letter from John Pattison, Cloughjordan, Ireland, to his son, John Pattison Jr., in South America, May [1925]. ***Should be Goodhand Pattison instead of John. Also two of his footnotes (#225) re quotes by Alfred Magowan are NOT found in AM's Outline. The Outline is written in a PLAY format. There is nothing found in it like the quote. I have only found this quote below used by Dr. J in the book The Secret Sect by Doug Parker, which I'm sure Dr. J didn't want to help anybody find or know about. Incorrectly his book attributes this quote to an unpublished manuscript title known to be by Alfred M. The quote's source is given in The Secret Sect, page 26, Chapter 3, Footnote 10. Read A.M.'s Outline at: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/magowanalfred.phpDr. J's Footnote #225 Alfred Magowan, "Outline of the History of a Peculiar People from 1900-1931," Unpublished typescript, n.p. "In 1953, Alfred Magowan wrote a reminiscence in which he explained in detail the nature of Irvine’s Experiment and the revolutionary spirit of the Irvine's movement which prompted young men and women to offer their lives for the harvest field. “It was a revolution against the respectable and comfortable members of the community who, while claiming to be Christians, were in high positions, looking down on the improvidence of the poor. Many of us were moved to go forth…We forsook all we had. We emptied ourselves of all worldly ambition…We were so zealous that no arguments against us could have made the slightest effect. Minds were unalterable and irrevocably made up. The need seemed so great. It was a chance to live heroically in an age afflicted with dullness…We were fanatical…We believed that we were the last hope of the world and that ours was an honest-hearted revolt. We set out to form a brotherhood where all would be equal. We wanted to break from all tradition and become a people neither Catholic nor Protestant with no regulations, no authority, no machinery or human control, to be free to serve God and make people free like ourselves. We put all worldly ambition behind us, none of this world’s satisfactions or regards held any attraction, we had no theology to propound, no congregations to please, we saw ourselves as workers, but not bosses.” #225
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 7, 2009 11:47:08 GMT -5
Read page 309 of the History of the Christian Church by W.M. Blackburn I posted -->> here << - it offers a clue why there was no "open ministry" outside of official denominations for so many years, well thousands of years. Those that tried in the mid 1100s-1200s were severely suppressed for example; the 1229 Council of Toulouse which seems to have placed "every layman daring to possess a Bible, now first forbidden to the laity by this Council," in "peril of the rack, the dungeon, and the stake." - for possessing a Bible! The specific intent seemed to be to wipe out those not willing to be under the thumb of official Church authority. History of the Christian Church has an interesting comment about the "Waldenses" (or Vaudios); "it is said that a traveler from Antwerp to Florence could lodge every night with some Waldensian brother or sympathizer." Hmmm, sounds familiar. There were groups like this in various countries, Albigenses, Henricians, Good-Men, Arnoldists. When the official Church swung into action against them it was ugly. "Various councils grew more inquisitorial, and the customs of burning heretics alive was matured. "In the year 1183 many heretics were burned alive in Flanders."" A siege in 1209 against "the poor people -- Petrobrussians, Hendicians, and Albigenses" might be where the phrase, "Kill them all and let God sort them out" comes from. The papal legate's advice to the soldiers was, "Slay them all; The Lord knoweth them that are his!". And that's what happened, army of nearly 300,000 attacked and "The swarming misbelievers of Providence were almost literally drowned in [their] own blood." And it went on and on; "Inquisitors had been at work for two centuries with all their horrid enginery." History of the Christian Church offers a very small glimpse of the Dark Ages our freedom of religion was born out of - this history should always be part of our conversation now. All the people subject to this ruthless killing and torture tried to do, their "heresy", was go back to what they thought was the original instructions or blueprint. They read their Bibles and understood what it meant that the veil was rent. In my opinion what they did is not much different than what Irvine and the early workers did.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 7, 2009 13:03:33 GMT -5
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Mar 7, 2009 13:49:08 GMT -5
thank you, cherie and jesse!
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 7, 2009 13:52:36 GMT -5
So, DC, are you going to order your copy right away?? thank you, cherie and jesse!
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Mar 7, 2009 13:55:41 GMT -5
So, DC, are you going to order your copy right away?? I am interested, yes, but I have a stack of study books ahead of it to read. I'm travelling now, usually read about a book or two per week when on the road, so they go fast!
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 26, 2009 19:38:26 GMT -5
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Post by CherieKropp on May 26, 2009 22:01:50 GMT -5
Nate wrote:
And how did Dr. J respond to the book you sent him?
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Post by rjkee on May 27, 2009 1:00:56 GMT -5
Back in March, I posted the following: In another thread, I posted the following regarding DR J's book: 3/4/09 at 20:29, CherieKropp wrote: [Per Dr. J, the following account is not available at this time.] Footnote 219 PA-1-12, Account by Alfred Trotter to Edith Trotter, 28 July 1976: “He [John Long] it was who fired the first shot in a campaign which was destined to re-echo around the world. And he was present on many momentous occasions, went out in the work and sacrificed much in the days of his youth.” P.5 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In 2003 I wrote to Dr Jaenen as follows: I have recently read some excerpts from your new book, The Apostles’ Doctrine and Fellowship, and noticed that you have referenced Alfred Trotter and Edith Trotter (page 522, number 219). You may be interested to know that Alfred’s second wife, Lily, was a relative of mine, and they attended the union meeting in my parents’ home. I had heard that Alfred wrote an account of the ‘early days’, but had assumed that it had been lost. Recently I spoke with his daughter, Edith. She was unaware of the account’s existence, and was very keen to see a copy. I too would like to read Alfred’s account. Please let me know where I can obtain a copy of this publication.In his response he stated that he had been shown a copy by a worker from Europe but was not allowed to make a copy. He suggested that the original was held by a 2x2 family in Enniskillen, N. Ireland. The family he mentioned includes one current worker. I believe that the Trotter account has great significance in that it was written by a member of the group while he was in good standing. As such, he would have no axe to grind and therefore his account is likely to be perceived in a positive light by current members of the 2x2 group. Best regards Robert PS It strikes me as highly unusual that in a textbook, an academic would reference a document which is not either : 1. in the public domain or 2. available to the reader via the book's author. Furthermore, it seems unusual that the apparently confidential nature of Alfie's account was not stated. No comments about my message were posted. Please let me know if you agree or disagree about the importance of Alfie's account. Best regards Robert
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