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Post by gray on Aug 31, 2009 11:40:26 GMT -5
Gray, I have a few questions for you concerning statement of Faith written down on paper.
God gives some believers 1 talent, other 2 talent and another 5 talents. Are you expecting all them to have the same understanding, belief, statement of Faith according to their talents/gifts.
The overseer workers can write up a statement of Faith but the younger workers and believers haven't had the talent/gift to graspe it yet. Then what do you do? you can't force people to believe in the statement of Faith when they haven't attained that knowlege or revelation. God's word clearly provides ALL the 'talents' needed for the simplest mind to understand in terms of how salvation is received. And therefore there are NO people who are excluded from receiving the same 'talents.' It would be nice to see an Overseer Worker write a statement of faith, but so far they have avoided even teaching their own converts what the 2x2 beliefs are in voice. The Plain Truth article directly addresses this matter, as does the CRI statement, DC690. One must attend many "gospel meetings" to glean the 2x2 beliefs out of the Workers' 'sermons.' Of course, if an Overseer Worker ever does write a 2x2 statement of faith, there will be people who will still fail to understand it, yet claim to be "professing." This is no different within any church that provides a written statement of faith -- there are those who fail to understand it yet claim to be "professing" it. And that was true in the first century church, and always will be true. Not all people who claim to be Christian are Christians, just as not all 2x2s who claim to be 2x2s are 2x2s. Some 2x2s do hold Biblical beliefs with regard to how salvation is received, even though their beliefs do not agree with the unclear preachings of the 2x2 Overseer Workers. I have already provided an example (somewhere on this board if not this thread) of a Worker who was removed from the 2x2 ministry by the Overseer Workers because he taught a very close version of the Biblical identity of God (i.e., "doctrines" that the Overseer Workers disagreed with him teaching).
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 31, 2009 12:30:02 GMT -5
Yes, each person has prayed and got their own revelation. Some have it revealed that this is a cult. Some have it revealed that this is the only way to heaven. Some have prayed and concluded theirs is a special case and its OK to live in adultery. Some have prayed.... Yes, now you too! can pray to God and get your own very special revelation.The conclusion? They are not praying to God and don't believe in the Bible. Aww. The acknowledgment that God is not in the cult and that is why THEY HAVE SO MANY PROBLEMS and the cult followers are so confused? Brad
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 31, 2009 12:31:45 GMT -5
Here you have it folks. Some have higher levels of revelation. Brad Just say William Irivine wrote a statement of Faith for the 2x2 church in 1913 before he left the ministry in 1914.
He believed Christ's 2nd coming to happen in 1900's and it didn't happen. He believed he was one of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 and that wasn't true.
What do you do when William Irivine's statement of Faith found out to be false? what do you do? Leave the good statement of faith and throw away the bad ones?
And how about some of the overseers who don't believe Jesus is God and other workers do. Some workers believe in the Trinity and others don't. What do you do? How many statement of Faith do you write then One for who believe in the Trinity, Jesus is God vs. those who don't believe in the Trinity and Jesus is God.
So, the two Statement of Faith leave a great confusion among the friends from reading what the overseers teach wouldn't you say. The proof is on TMB... some friends believe in the Trinity, Jesus is God and others who don't. So, what do you do?
Do you think Statement of Faith is neccessary when NOT all the workers and the friends see, understand, and believe on the same doctrines? because ours gifts of revelation are so not on the same level.
The best thing to do is each person must pray and get the Revelation from God himself through studying and praying with the help from the GREAT teacher the Holy Spirit.
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Post by gray on Aug 31, 2009 12:46:25 GMT -5
Just say William Irivine wrote a statement of Faith for the 2x2 church in 1913 before he left the ministry in 1914.
He believed Christ's 2nd coming to happen in 1900's and it didn't happen. He believed he was one of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 and that wasn't true.
What do you do when William Irivine's statement of Faith found out to be false? what do you do? Leave the good statement of faith and throw away the bad ones?
And how about some of the overseers who don't believe Jesus is God and other workers do. Some workers believe in the Trinity and others don't. What do you do? How many statement of Faith do you write then One for who believe in the Trinity, Jesus is God vs. those who don't believe in the Trinity and Jesus is God.
So, the two Statement of Faith leave a great confusion among the friends from reading what the overseers teach wouldn't you say. The proof is on TMB... some friends believe in the Trinity, Jesus is God and others who don't. So, what do you do?
Do you think Statement of Faith is neccessary when NOT all the workers and the friends see, understand, and believe on the same doctrines? because ours gifts of revelation are so not on the same level.
The best thing to do is each person must pray and get the Revelation from God himself through studying and praying with the help from the GREAT teacher the Holy Spirit. First of all, in answer to this, William Irvine demonsrated that William Irvine was a false prophet, yet the successive Workers held on to his "alpha gospel" to this day. Jesus said, 'a house divided against itself will fall" (paraphrased). And the 2x2 church has been divided against itself for most of its history. It is still losing more members than it is enticing into it -- i.e., it is still falling. And if it keeps falling from internal divisions, those dedicated Workers and friends who hold the Bible as their authority over everything else will persist as Christians even after 2x2ism disappears from this globe - or perhaps the 2x2 church will collectively begin to teach Biblical doctrines and become a Christian denomination as a result of doing so. And your guess is as good as mine in that regard - it depends solely on what the leadership of the 2x2 church does with the Biblical doctrines. As for the controversy on the TMB, the controversy of views expressed here, from Atheism to Christian beliefs, seems only to promote more controversy, which, in our present culture, brings more popularity to the TMB. But one could hardly call the TMB a 'Christian church.' And the TMB will also fall if it remains divided against itself, just as our culture will fall if it continues divided against itself.
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Post by gray on Aug 31, 2009 13:02:51 GMT -5
Yes, Brad NOT all workers and the friends receive the one talent! some receive more talent than others according to Jesus parable and Eph. 4:8-12 Jesus gave some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, some teachers for the perfecting of the saints, preparing them for service, for the edying the body of Christ. And the 2x2 church has only two classes of "talents" which are the Workers and the "friends." And neither of these "talents" are presented as the means of salvation within the Bible. Where are the 2x2 "pastors," "teachers," "apostles," "prophets," and where is the "perfection of the saints" within 2x2ism in its entire history. Please notice, that is not a question.
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Post by gray on Aug 31, 2009 13:11:13 GMT -5
First of all, in answer to this, William Irvine demonsrated that William Irvine was a false prophet, yet the successive Workers held on to his "alpha gospel" to this day. Jesus said, 'a house divided against itself will fall" (paraphrased). And the 2x2 church has been divided against itself for most of its history. It is still losing more members than it is enticing into it -- i.e., it is still falling. And if it keeps falling from internal divisions, those dedicated Workers and friends who hold the Bible as their authority over everything else will persist as Christians even after 2x2ism disappears from this globe - or perhaps the 2x2 church will collectively begin to teach Biblical doctrines and become a Christian denomination as a result of doing so. And your guess is as good as mine in that regard - it depends solely on what the leadership of the 2x2 church does with the Biblical doctrines. As for the controversy on the TMB, the controversy of views expressed here, from Atheism to Christian beliefs, seems only to promote more controversy, which, in our present culture, brings more popularity to the TMB. But one could hardly call the TMB a 'Christian church.' And the TMB will also fall if it remains divided against itself, just as our culture will fall if it continues divided against itself. ~~ Well, the first century church had many disagreement in doctrines, between Old Testament and New Testament teachings. Division between false and true false apostles teaching. Do you think Christ's church disintergrated into Oblivion? I don't think so. God's church and foundation stands firm. God knows them that are His.
Those who taught different than the teachings of Christ just broke off and form their own churches.
I Cor. 1:11-13 For it had been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are quarrels among you. Now, this I say that of you said I am follow of Paul; and another I am follower of Apollos; and another I am follower of Cephas; and still another I follow Christ.
Is Christ's divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
So, Paul encourage ALL to put on the mind of Christ. Eph. 4:3-6 Make every effort to keep the Unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is One body, One Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, One faith, one baptism.
Yes, there will always be some disagreement, division within the 2x2s church... Jesus said Satan has sowed tares among the wheat... The angels of God will separate the tares from the wheat when the time is right.There was no disagreement between the Old Testament and the New Testament within the first century church. The New Testament did not exist when the twelve apostlles plus Paul taught Christianity out of the Old Testament. In fact the church did not exist until after the rsurrecton of Jesus, who personally appointed His former "disciples" as "apostles." And the church was instructed by the resurrected Lord Jesus to remain in Jerusalem until it received the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost before the apostles even began to lead the church into all truth. So your post is fundamentally flawed right from its start.
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Post by JO on Aug 31, 2009 16:18:18 GMT -5
William Irvine demonsrated that William Irvine was a false prophet, yet the successive Workers held on to his "alpha gospel" to this day. The founder of "The Plain Truth" was a false prophet. Why are you so excited about the lies in their latest publication?
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Post by gray on Aug 31, 2009 16:23:44 GMT -5
~~ Well, the first century church had many disagreement in doctrines, between Old Testament and New Testament teachings. Division between false and true false apostles teaching. Do you think Christ's church disintergrated into Oblivion? I don't think so. God's church and foundation stands firm. God knows them that are His.
Those who taught different than the teachings of Christ just broke off and form their own churches.
I Cor. 1:11-13 For it had been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are quarrels among you. Now, this I say that of you said I am follow of Paul; and another I am follower of Apollos; and another I am follower of Cephas; and still another I follow Christ.
Is Christ's divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
So, Paul encourage ALL to put on the mind of Christ. Eph. 4:3-6 Make every effort to keep the Unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is One body, One Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, One faith, one baptism.
Yes, there will always be some disagreement, division within the 2x2s church... Jesus said Satan has sowed tares among the wheat... The angels of God will separate the tares from the wheat when the time is right.1) Gray wrote: There was no disagreement between the Old Testament and the New Testament within the first century church. ~~ hmmmm... Acts 15: And certain men (believers) who came down from Judea taught the brethren and said, "Except ye be circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses."
This brought, Barnabas and Paul into no small disputed with them so they appointed that Paul and Barnabas should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders about this question.2) The New Testament did not exist when the twelve apostlles plus Paul taught Christianity out of the Old Testament. In fact the church did not exist until after the rsurrecton of Jesus, who personally appointed His former "disciples" as "apostles." And the church was instructed by the resurrected Lord Jesus to remain in Jerusalem until it received the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost before the apostles even began to lead the church into all truth. So your post is fundamentally flawed right from its start. ~~~ According to Hebrews 10:9,10 The New Testament began when Jesus preaching the gospel at the age of 30. Then said he, Lo, I (Jesus) come to do thy will, O God, He taketh away the FIRST (covenant) that he may establish the SECOND (Covenant). By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
At the age of 30 Jesus went forth preaching the gospel of Salvation and 500 plus people were SAVED during those 3 yrs. (I Cor. 15:1-8)I do not have my Bible on the machine I am replying from or you would get the rest of your story from it. The "Judaisers" that infiltrated the church were rebuked by the apostles, and they were not allowed to continue to teach within the church. So your attempt to make the early heretics into accepted members of the first century church is a valuable demonstration of typical 2x2 fantasy - a part truth knowingly presented as a 'truth' is a lie. I have always wondered how a 2x2 mind would get around the fact that the apostles taught Christianity out of the Old Testament. S thank you for demonstrating how a 2x2 does that. But your imaginary New Testament in existance at the time of Jesus' ministry is seriously flawed. Jesus Himself taught from the Old Testament, the ONLY Scripture that existed until the New Testament was written many years after Jesus' resurrection. Your fantasy is most entertaining to me, and probably to any objective researcher as well.
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 31, 2009 16:30:02 GMT -5
Gray, I noticed also that Nathan seems to think that the talents given out was not "money" ( a talent, farthing etc) but he thinks it is some "talent". Like the ability to brainwash, the ability to deceive , the ability to lie, the ability to fabricate myths from the Bible (all of course for the name of God) Please quote this Bert Rather the talents the 2x2s possess are for mind control, domination, control and abuse of simple-minded folks who are led astray by wishful thinking and ignorance of God.
Brad Yes, Brad NOT all workers and the friends receive the one talent! some receive more talent than others according to Jesus parable and Eph. 4:8-12 Jesus gave some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, some teachers for the perfecting of the saints, preparing them for service, for the edying the body of Christ. And the 2x2 church has only two classes of "talents" which are the Workers and the "friends." And neither of these "talents" are presented as the means of salvation within the Bible. Where are the 2x2 "pastors," "teachers," "apostles," "prophets," and where is the "perfection of the saints" within 2x2ism in its entire history. Please notice, that is not a question.
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 31, 2009 16:35:24 GMT -5
Don't believe the trash 2x2s teach about Jesus taking away the Old Law before it had even been fulfilled.
Nathan is an ignorant deceiver who likes to justify the cult and deceive others to proclaim his own righteousness.
But many already know that.
Read these verses and see if the Old Testament was taken away before Jesus' sacrifice.
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. Mat 8:3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. Mat 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, show thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them. Mat
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Post by gray on Aug 31, 2009 18:55:54 GMT -5
I do not have my Bible on the machine I am replying from or you would get the rest of your story from it. The "Judaisers" that infiltrated the church were rebuked by the apostles, and they were not allowed to continue to teach within the church. So your attempt to make the early heretics into accepted members of the first century church is a valuable demonstration of typical 2x2 fantasy - a part truth knowingly presented as a 'truth' is a lie. I have always wondered how a 2x2 mind would get around the fact that the apostles taught Christianity out of the Old Testament. S thank you for demonstrating how a 2x2 does that. But your imaginary New Testament in existance at the time of Jesus' ministry is seriously flawed. Jesus Himself taught from the Old Testament, the ONLY Scripture that existed until the New Testament was written many years after Jesus' resurrection. Your fantasy is most entertaining to me, and probably to any objective researcher as well. ~~ Gray... in Hebrews 9:16-22 For where is a Testament (Will) it is necessary be the DEATH of the one who made it. Because a testament (will) is in force only AFTER the one who wrote it DIED! otherwise it NEVER take effect at all while the one who made it still LIVING.
This is why the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. For Moses had spoken every commandment to all the people according to the law, he TOOK the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both on the scroll and all the people. Saying, This is the BLOOD of the Testament! which God has commanded for you to keep.
Heb. 10:4 For it is Impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins. For the law having shadow of good thing to come.
~~~ Only the blood of Jesus the Spotless without sin! the Lamb of God shed on Calvary's Cross take away our sins. When Jesus was ALIVE during his 31/2 years as an Itinerant preacher of the gospel He wrote His New Testament (will/teachings).
In Luke 22:19,20 And Jesus took bread and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them saying, "This is my body which is give for you: do this in rememberance of me." Likewise also the cup after supper saying, "This is the New Testament! in my blood, which is shed for you..."Jesus had to DIE and SHED his blood on Calvary's Cross before the New Testament (Will) could go into effect for humanit Sins to be forgiven by God the Father.The Plain Truth article states the following; "Claiming to be the only true church, Irvine and Cooney taught a strange, allegorical approach to the Bible which allowed them to make anything they wanted of it. The two began an approach to interpretation of Scripture which continues among the No-Names to this day, applying entirely new definitions to familiar words, ignoring context or translation, thereby allowing them to use the Bible to support a religion created out of whole cloth by its founders." Thank you kindly for demonstrating the accuracy of their article on the TMB.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 31, 2009 19:20:45 GMT -5
William Irvine demonsrated that William Irvine was a false prophet, yet the successive Workers held on to his "alpha gospel" to this day. The founder of "The Plain Truth" was a false prophet. Why are you so excited about the lies in their latest publication? Good question.
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Post by gray on Aug 31, 2009 19:36:56 GMT -5
The founder of "The Plain Truth" was a false prophet. Why are you so excited about the lies in their latest publication? Good question. Thank you for bringing this post to my attention. The false prophet, William Irvine pieced together his "Alpha gospel" as the only means of salvation and the present-day Workers hang onto that 'gospel' in place of the gospel of Scripture to this day. The false prophet, Herbert W. Armstrong founded the WCG, which published the Plain Truth magazine. You are comparing a false 'gospel' to a magazine - which is no surprise. But it might be meaningful if you compared the present WCG gospel to the gospel of Scripture - unless diversion via ad-hominem is your aim in the post.
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Post by JO on Aug 31, 2009 20:52:06 GMT -5
Thank you for bringing this post to my attention. The false prophet, William Irvine pieced together his "Alpha gospel" as the only means of salvation and the present-day Workers hang onto that 'gospel' in place of the gospel of Scripture to this day. The false prophet, Herbert W. Armstrong founded the WCG, which published the Plain Truth magazine. You are comparing a false 'gospel' to a magazine - which is no surprise. But it might be meaningful if you compared the present WCG gospel to the gospel of Scripture - unless diversion via ad-hominem is your aim in the post. Herbert Armstrong founded more than a magazine - he founded a church that hurt a lot of people. Gray, a main ingredient of a cult is a charismatic leader. When the WCG leader died the church began to split into several pieces. WI got booted and took a few loyal followers with him, but the 2x2 church continued and is not going to disintegrate as the result of a great leader being taken out.
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Post by JO on Sept 1, 2009 14:45:58 GMT -5
And the 2x2 church has only two classes of "talents" which are the Workers and the "friends." And neither of these "talents" are presented as the means of salvation within the Bible. Where are the 2x2 "pastors," "teachers," "apostles," "prophets," and where is the "perfection of the saints" within 2x2ism in its entire history. Please notice, that is not a question. ~~ As I mentioned in my posts before. I had fellow-workers who were were teachers (Leo Stancliff, Harold B. John Sterling, ), Pastors/shepherds (Jay Wicks, Ralph S, Howard Mooney), Evangelist (Evertt Swanson, Harold B. John Sterling, Tom H.) prohets, (Evertt Blair).... They have strengthen the saint with theirs ministryNathan, are you saying teachers, pastors, shepherds and evangelists must be celibate members in good standing of the 2x2 organization?
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Post by rational on Sept 3, 2009 17:55:20 GMT -5
This looks like a fake written especially for VOT. Can you verify that Ken Armstrong wrote it? Good luck in getting ilylo to back up anything he posts.
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Post by ilylo on Sept 3, 2009 18:03:08 GMT -5
Good luck in getting rational to be such.
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Post by freespirit on Sept 3, 2009 22:20:33 GMT -5
Freespirit = One of a kind there are not too many people like her among us. VERY spunky. ;D down to earth, speak her mind, not men pleaser. ;D fs
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Post by freespirit on Sept 3, 2009 23:30:59 GMT -5
Aw, Nathan, that's really sweet. PITA is closer to the truth though... fs
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